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IR35 in reality

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    IR35 in reality

    Been away from UK for a while (7 years) and just catching up on latest IR35 information. I know you should get your contract reviewed from QDOS, but unless contracting in a clients workplace has changed dramatically I still think a huge amount of people would fall inside IR35 and are just hoping for the best. I mean HMRC can investigate you for last 20 years of taxes.

    For example say you are a C# developer on a 6 month contract hired through an agency after having an interview (like a permie) at a clients office

    1. Substitution
    Would the client really except somebody else from your LTD company turning up for the day and doing your work? What about if you take a day off? You should really supply a replacement for yourself. I wonder if this has ever happened in reality

    2. SDC
    You undertake pair programming as part of the contract (I’ve seen this advertised in many roles), is this a form of supervision, who knows? Do you decline?

    The client tells you that you need to “do” a piece of code in a certain way to follow company practices, is this direction?

    Your contract states you have been engaged to create a banking portal backend. The project is held up by 2 days, the client asks if you can help out on another project? Do you say no, I can’t or I would need a new contract? Or leave for those 2 days unpaid

    Most of the job ads I see on Indeed for example read like disguised permanent roles

    “learning from and passing knowledge to like-minded and talented colleagues”
    “Share and seek knowledge to enhance the output of the team”
    “Work to deadlines”
    “Share options in a rapidly growing company”
    “You will need to work closely with our Senior Developer to successfully implement the company requirements”

    #2
    Most of the contracts will fall inside IR35 automatically with the new rules already in play in public sector and only a matter of time (next April or 2020 likely) before they roll out to the private sector, where the client determines if you're inside IR35 or not.

    Blanket 'inside' determinations have been common in the public sector since the new rules came in from April 2017, so don't expect much different in private sector when the lazy arse covering client management are making the decision in their best interest.

    No big deal, you just need to uplift the usual rate by 30-50% to offset it.

    On plus side, no more worrying about contract terms, reviews, or tax man kicking your back door in for their 'fair share'.
    Maybe tomorrow, I'll want to settle down. Until tomorrow, I'll just keep moving on.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by matt99 View Post
      1. Substitution
      Would the client really except somebody else from your LTD company turning up for the day and doing your work? What about if you take a day off? You should really supply a replacement for yourself. I wonder if this has ever happened in reality
      At my current client plenty of people (including me) do use substitutes when taking time off.

      I simply like up work which requires little handover and little product knowledge.

      Some clients it’s a harder sell than others.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by matt99 View Post
        I still think a huge amount of people would fall inside IR35 and are just hoping for the best.
        Yep
        I mean HMRC can investigate you for last 20 years of taxes.
        Not really. It's a bit more complicated than that.
        1. Substitution
        Would the client really except somebody else from your LTD company turning up for the day and doing your work? What about if you take a day off? You should really supply a replacement for yourself. I wonder if this has ever happened in reality
        You would never substitute for a day of. That's ridiculous. At least give some scenarios where it's even plausible. But to answer the first question in 99.9% of instances, no.
        2. SDC
        You undertake pair programming as part of the contract (I’ve seen this advertised in many roles), is this a form of supervision, who knows? Do you decline?
        Very difficult area. Best not really possible to answer hypothetical questions unless they are detailed with other aspects considered.
        The client tells you that you need to “do” a piece of code in a certain way to follow company practices, is this direction?
        As above.
        Your contract states you have been engaged to create a banking portal backend. The project is held up by 2 days, the client asks if you can help out on another project? Do you say no, I can’t or I would need a new contract? Or leave for those 2 days unpaid
        In theory you say no or get a new schedule of work, or take the time off. For 2 days, you'd probably just do it. Again, not a very good scenario using just 2 days.
        Most of the job ads I see on Indeed for example read like disguised permanent roles

        “learning from and passing knowledge to like-minded and talented colleagues”
        “Share and seek knowledge to enhance the output of the team”
        “Work to deadlines”
        “Share options in a rapidly growing company”
        “You will need to work closely with our Senior Developer to successfully implement the company requirements”
        Never seen that in any gig I've applied for.

        I suspect you are just musing here hence the rather woolly scenarios and sweeping statements.

        You are on the right track through, everything you have mentioned is important. You need to understand the rules, what they are e.g. S, D & C and then apply them to your situation. Every one is different. IR35 is not a tickbox exercise and there are no quick answers.
        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Hobosapien View Post
          Most of the contracts will fall inside IR35 automatically with the new rules already in play in public sector and only a matter of time (next April or 2020 likely) before they roll out to the private sector, where the client determines if you're inside IR35 or not.

          Blanket 'inside' determinations have been common in the public sector since the new rules came in from April 2017, so don't expect much different in private sector when the lazy arse covering client management are making the decision in their best interest.

          No big deal, you just need to uplift the usual rate by 30-50% to offset it.

          On plus side, no more worrying about contract terms, reviews, or tax man kicking your back door in for their 'fair share'.
          Yeah I used to contract in Australia and pretty most companies treat contractors as employees for tax purposes as they are liable for the unpaid NI tax or superannuation as its called over there

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
            Yep

            Not really. It's a bit more complicated than that.


            You would never substitute for a day of. That's ridiculous. At least give some scenarios where it's even plausible. But to answer the first question in 99.9% of instances, no.

            Very difficult area. Best not really possible to answer hypothetical questions unless they are detailed with other aspects considered.

            As above.

            In theory you say no or get a new schedule of work, or take the time off. For 2 days, you'd probably just do it. Again, not a very good scenario using just 2 days.


            Never seen that in any gig I've applied for.

            I suspect you are just musing here hence the rather woolly scenarios and sweeping statements.

            You are on the right track through, everything you have mentioned is important. You need to understand the rules, what they are e.g. S, D & C and then apply them to your situation. Every one is different. IR35 is not a tickbox exercise and there are no quick answers.
            Correct I was musing! It helps when the client understands IR35 and is used to contractors. It's the ones that just think contractors are better paid employees and are treated that way you have to be wary of

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by MrButton View Post
              At my current client plenty of people (including me) do use substitutes when taking time off.

              I simply like up work which requires little handover and little product knowledge.

              Some clients it’s a harder sell than others.
              That is a good client to have!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by matt99 View Post
                Correct I was musing! It helps when the client understands IR35 and is used to contractors. It's the ones that just think contractors are better paid employees and are treated that way you have to be wary of
                And that's when a contractor needs to know what they are and how it works so they can educate their client. It's in the best interests of the client to do it properly so they should be willing to listen.
                'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

                Comment


                  #9
                  As I said recently, you may find this guide worth reading. Both sides of the hiring divide need to understand its contents properly.
                  Blog? What blog...?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by malvolio View Post
                    As I said recently, you may find this guide worth reading. Both sides of the hiring divide need to understand its contents properly.
                    Excellent thanks!

                    Comment

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