Eaglecliff & Shell - Mandatory 3 week holiday

[WTFH]

I don't think your questions reflect anything I have said. I think they are passive aggressive so I won't respond to them.

You seem a tad sensitive about all this.
I was trying to find out what your attitude was - if you are expecting your clients to pay for every day of a fixed term contract, does that include when your employees do not work for them, and does it include public holidays?

[mcltd]

You seem a tad sensitive about all this.
I was trying to find out what your attitude was - if you are expecting your clients to pay for every day of a fixed term contract, does that include when your employees do not work for them, and does it include public holidays?

My apologies if I came off as defensive. I had just read a rather off putting message from one of your fellow moderators.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for days that my employees choose not to work for them.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for public holidays.

I expect clients to pay for the days THEY requested in the contract and my employee(s) offer a service; i.e., Monday to Friday for the set period.

[NotAllThere]

I expect clients to pay for the days THEY requested in the contract and my employee(s) offer a service; i.e., Monday to Friday for the set period.

... excluding public holidays.

[WTFH]

My apologies if I came off as defensive. I had just read a rather off putting message from one of your fellow moderators.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for days that my employees choose not to work for them.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for public holidays.

I expect clients to pay for the days THEY requested in the contract and my employee(s) offer a service; i.e., Monday to Friday for the set period.

That seems reasonable enough, it would then depend on the wording of the contract, whether it specified the actual days of the week to be worked, or just the number of days to be worked (either per week, or in total over the length of the contract) etc, and if there stipulations on holidays and/or overtime rates.

The devil is in the detail.

[mcltd]

the devil is in the detail, indeed

That seems reasonable enough, it would then depend on the wording of the contract, whether it specified the actual days of the week to be worked, or just the number of days to be worked (either per week, or in total over the length of the contract) etc, and if there stipulations on holidays and/or overtime rates.

The devil is in the detail.

I used this exact phrase in an earlier post in this thread. I have now approached a few solicitors about this topic. At least one has read the contract. The contract is only about 15 pages. They concluded that I have a case.

The thing is, there is no case to be heard. Officially, Shell approved all of the days in January that my employee wants to work at Shell. Eaglecliff have confirmed twice today that they received this approval.

I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks. I don't think I will ever know what motivated him. I know that this situation has caused me to lose valuable time working on other pressing matters.

I would apologise to the forum for taking their time on what is now, apparently, a non issue! However, this idea that clients can randomly pause an ongoing, fixed term, services contract is really important.

So, you moderators can say that I am 'holier than thou'. You can threaten to ban me for raising this issue and pointing out the flaws in telling people they have no chance of recovering the lost revenue, but I am not apologetic at all.

HMRC will tell you that it is the working practices that matter above the documentation. This thread shows, perhaps, an overemphasis on the nature of the company structure.

Hopefully, another contractor who finds themselves in a similar predicament will think twice before just accepting the lost earnings.

[northernladuk]

How many employees do you have on site not including yourself?

I assume you'd be happy to take this both ways and you and your employees cannot take any holidays for this gig as the days are in the contract.

[NotAllThere]

...I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks...

Oh that's easy. The manager didn't realise that your employer is not a standard contractor - i.e. someone who works for the ltdco they own, or through a brolly - and therefore not on a standard contractor contract.

Hopefully, another contractor who finds themselves in a similar predicament will think twice before just accepting the lost earnings.

I don't think your situation is at all relevant. For the reasons above and also that the choice is usually between doing what the client says or being given notice. From what you say, it looks like there was no notice provision for the client (or intermediary) in the contract.

[mcltd]

trying to save face

Oh that's easy. The manager didn't realise that your employer is not a standard contractor - i.e. someone who works for the ltdco they own, or through a brolly - and therefore not on a standard contractor contract.

Nothing you have said bears any relation to contract law.

I don't think your situation is at all relevant. For the reasons above and also that the choice is usually between doing what the client says or being given notice. From what you say, it looks like there was no notice provision for the client (or intermediary) in the contract.

Relevant to what? Relevant to whom? Isn't it pretentious of you to assume that no one can relate to my post?

If you have a contract, you always have a choice. If the client is in breach of the contract you both signed, you have a choice.

The contract stipulates the terms under which it can be revoked or cancelled. Going on holiday is not a condition.

I don't believe these comments are about the substance of my argument. They appear to be more about trying to save face.

[jmo21]

I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks. I don't think I will ever know what motivated him. I know that this situation has caused me to lose valuable time working on other pressing matters.
<snip>

HMRC will tell you that it is the working practices that matter above the documentation. This thread shows, perhaps, an overemphasis on the nature of the company structure.

Hopefully, another contractor who finds themselves in a similar predicament will think twice before just accepting the lost earnings.

So it's a real fixed term contract after all, happy days for you.

The manager may have been wrong in your case, but in typical normal contractor contracts are very much time and materials, with no guarantee of total days worked. Obviously there is an extreme "zero hours" scenario, but this is uncommon.

There are many of us who have "total days" contracts, but these are usually per year maintenance style contracts.

So you might not understand that, but it is not uncommon in the slightest. You might think we are being bent over, but it actually also protects us from IR35, despite your assertions earlier.

Anyway, Merry Christmas! :-)

[mcltd]

Merry Christmas, indeed

So it's a real fixed term contract after all, happy days for you.

The manager may have been wrong in your case, but in typical normal contractor contracts are very much time and materials, with no guarantee of total days worked. Obviously there is an extreme "zero hours" scenario, but this is uncommon.

There are many of us who have "total days" contracts, but these are usually per year maintenance style contracts.

So you might not understand that, but it is not uncommon in the slightest. You might think we are being bent over, but it actually also protects us from IR35, despite your assertions earlier.

Anyway, Merry Christmas! :-)

Merry Christmas, indeed!

Fixed term contracts, zero hour contracts, total days contracts - it is good to understand the benefits and limitations of them all.