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Advice - Rights after 4+ years

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    Advice - Rights after 4+ years

    I might need to get legal advice but I'd be interested in views here frst.

    I started work for a small (15-20 FTE) 4.5 years ago on a series of 6 months contracts supporting ad hoc projects. The day rate is modest but it allows me to WFH and I work 3 days a week. I know that I am rated very highly by those that know me

    The 2 guys I worked for were pretty disorganised and getting them to renew contracts was a nightmare. They kept telling me they'd do it (but didn't) but not to worry I can stay ad infinitum. Eventually I just gave up and I have been working without a contract for the past 3 years. In hindsight perhaps not sensible but I'm planning on retiring at the end of this year and so I wasn't too concerned and trusted them completely.

    In the past 6 weeks the businesses has been acquired by a much larger business and they are beginning to put people in. We never had an HR person at all but one has now transferred across. Seemingly she doesn't like Contractors and the gossip is she will replace all of us eventually. I'm hoping to stay under the radar for a while as she is on a major hiring programme and my day rate isn't going to put me at the top of any priority list. My boss has been transferred to the parent business and I now work for someone I know but she is fairly low level too. She leaves me alone and I think I've only heard from her once in 4 weeks. I'm busy enough but not overloaded

    I'm concerned about my rights. I did read that after a period Contractors should be treated as any other employees but does my lack of contract mean that's not the case? I've never had any benefits (holiday, sick pay, pension cont's). What I'm concerned about is that Mrs HR will 'find me' and simply instruct that I leave, or maybe give me 4 weeks notice (that was specified in my last contract).

    Given my impending retirement and WFH status (since moved house outside of commuting distance) finding another job is improbable but I could really do with the earnings from this year that I planned for and so I'm trying to look at any opportunity to delay the inevitable.

    If anyone can give me an indication of my rights (if any) it would be appreciated

    #2
    Contractors have few if any rights (that why we are paid and work the way we do). The only ‘right’ you have is that they pay you for the work you have performed.

    Without a contract you have nothing to go on, not even 4 weeks notice - HR could just pay up to the day they walk you out of the door and that’s it.


    Take each day as it comes is my advice.
    "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
    - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Culzean View Post
      I might need to get legal advice but I'd be interested in views here frst.

      I started work for a small (15-20 FTE) 4.5 years ago on a series of 6 months contracts supporting ad hoc projects. The day rate is modest but it allows me to WFH and I work 3 days a week. I know that I am rated very highly by those that know me

      The 2 guys I worked for were pretty disorganised and getting them to renew contracts was a nightmare. They kept telling me they'd do it (but didn't) but not to worry I can stay ad infinitum. Eventually I just gave up and I have been working without a contract for the past 3 years. In hindsight perhaps not sensible but I'm planning on retiring at the end of this year and so I wasn't too concerned and trusted them completely.

      In the past 6 weeks the businesses has been acquired by a much larger business and they are beginning to put people in. We never had an HR person at all but one has now transferred across. Seemingly she doesn't like Contractors and the gossip is she will replace all of us eventually. I'm hoping to stay under the radar for a while as she is on a major hiring programme and my day rate isn't going to put me at the top of any priority list. My boss has been transferred to the parent business and I now work for someone I know but she is fairly low level too. She leaves me alone and I think I've only heard from her once in 4 weeks. I'm busy enough but not overloaded

      I'm concerned about my rights. I did read that after a period Contractors should be treated as any other employees but does my lack of contract mean that's not the case? I've never had any benefits (holiday, sick pay, pension cont's). What I'm concerned about is that Mrs HR will 'find me' and simply instruct that I leave, or maybe give me 4 weeks notice (that was specified in my last contract).

      Given my impending retirement and WFH status (since moved house outside of commuting distance) finding another job is improbable but I could really do with the earnings from this year that I planned for and so I'm trying to look at any opportunity to delay the inevitable.

      If anyone can give me an indication of my rights (if any) it would be appreciated
      Are you working through your own Ltd and if so are you inside or outside IR35? Is an agency involved?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Old Greg View Post
        Are you working through your own Ltd and if so are you inside or outside IR35? Is an agency involved?
        Yes it's my own Ltd Co and I contracted directly, no agency. I'm operating outside of IR35

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Culzean View Post
          Yes it's my own Ltd Co and I contracted directly, no agency. I'm operating outside of IR35
          I was going to ask this, but with no contract it would be difficult to argue one way or another.

          You can be inside and try and fight for rights, or outside and keep the extra money for the loss of rights.

          You can’t have it both ways.
          "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
          - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

          Comment


            #6
            You are a contractor. You be don't have any.

            If you wanted to argue you have them you'd put yourself inside IR35 which means you'd have to pay a ton of tax back with penalties and interest.

            I'm sorry but it really annoys me when contractors want the lifestyle and then want permie rights when it suits them.
            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

            Comment


              #7
              Saying that... There is no way you are outside IR35 reading that, and I bet that's the tip of the iceberg.

              I hope you've got insurance.
              'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
                Saying that... There is no way you are outside IR35 reading that, and I bet that's the tip of the iceberg.

                I hope you've got insurance.
                I'm not really expecting Permie rights, I was only asking if I had any rights. I don't consider my day rate to be loaded with any particular premium, I took the job as I had been made redundant and it was all I could get, so it's not a case of having it both ways. I recognise that not having a live contract is problematic but it wasn't for the lack of trying. I am not a career Contractor and therefore am somewhat ignorant to the basic facts hence my asking the question.

                I operate outside of IR35 as that was the way they set me up in the beginning, I don't think they planned on me being around for so long, and nor did I.

                It appears I need to get proper legal advice (even if only the IR35 point) so if anyone can recommend a firm with expertise in this area then I would appreciate details

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Culzean View Post
                  Yes it's my own Ltd Co and I contracted directly, no agency. I'm operating outside of IR35
                  I think you have no employee equivalent rights.

                  Your original contractual terms may still be valid in terms of matters such as notice period, but the value of that is probably nil.

                  You should be approaching this with a business head, not a legal head. How do you get the most money out of the rest of this contrsct and how do you plan for when it ends.

                  Good luck.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Culzean View Post
                    I'm not really expecting Permie rights, I was only asking if I had any rights. I don't consider my day rate to be loaded with any particular premium, I took the job as I had been made redundant and it was all I could get, so it's not a case of having it both ways. I recognise that not having a live contract is problematic but it wasn't for the lack of trying. I am not a career Contractor and therefore am somewhat ignorant to the basic facts hence my asking the question.

                    I operate outside of IR35 as that was the way they set me up in the beginning, I don't think they planned on me being around for so long, and nor did I.

                    It appears I need to get proper legal advice (even if only the IR35 point) so if anyone can recommend a firm with expertise in this area then I would appreciate details

                    Start with the links on the right, and also IPSE's guide to IR35 https://www.ipse.co.uk/uploads/asset...4e9e8ee122.pdf

                    Who is the "they" that "set you up"? The decision (assuming you're working in the private sector) about whether IR35 applies, and liability for getting it wrong, is yours not "theirs".

                    Would you be able to argue that you are in business on your own account? Statements like "I am not a career Contractor" would suggest that this is unlikely.

                    It's possible that you could argue that you are a worker and get the rights that come with that, but in doing so you are putting yourself very firmly inside IR35 and would need to treat 95% of the income from the contract as salary, with the appropriate Employer and Employee NIs and Income Tax deducted from your rate.

                    As others have said, in the absence of anything new being signed, it's possible you could argue that the terms of the original contract apply. However if that is truly outside IR35, then there will be no obligation for them to provide you with work (or pay you) even if the notice period is honoured. But should they want to get rid of you, you could politely make it clear that you have a notice period, and they may well honour it and give you work for that period.

                    Comment

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