Legal action / Mislead contract was outside IR35

[cojak]

Cojak were this any of year that would be the correct response.

In April everything changes though so the thing the OP wants (i.e. the end client and agency taking responsibility) is about to happen.

And look how well that is currently working out...

On paper, eek yes - theoretically this should happen.

IRL I can see end clients and agencies doing everything in their power to make sure that this tulip flows downwards into contractors laps.

[DeludedKitten]

It's not always obvious from day one, sometimes it can take a while for it to be really clear what it is.

When you get to the point you realise that sh*t this is inside; Do you just call it quits and pay your taxes and let them get away with it?

I ensure that everyone knows what the contract is and that the working conditions match being outside IR35.

If that doesn't work out, then there are tow choices. Either accept the role as being inside IR35 and pay the appropriate taxes, or leave.

[eek]

Pay your tax and National Insurance then. It's your responsibiltiy to hve determined the status, and your responsibility to pay the right tax.

This is the kind of case (where people know they are inside IR35 but don't pay the tax) that leads to sledgehammers to crack walnuts like we're going to get in April.

I actually think it shows why the sledgehammer is required - yes I'm sorry for "proper" contractors who are going to be caught in the mess that is in progress but with examples like this (someone who isn't even bright enough to see the benefits of keeping quiet and instead was going to both sue the agency and invite HMRC to make him a very interesting test case) I think the rules did need to change.

[cyborg1337]

I ensure that everyone knows what the contract is and that the working conditions match being outside IR35.

If that doesn't work out, then there are tow choices. Either accept the role as being inside IR35 and pay the appropriate taxes, or leave.

So the consensus here is that you find a contract that is outside IR35, you get the paperwork checked out all is fine.

You start working, you try operate outside of IR35 from day one. It's fine first few months but then later little things start happening and the Client is not respecting the terms of the contract.

At that point you call it quits, pay the taxes and the client gets away with it and cycle repeats. Damn life really can be unfair.

[eek]

On paper, eek yes - theoretically this should happen.

IRL I can see end clients and agencies doing everything in their power to make sure that this tulip flows downwards into contractors laps.

End clients really want employees, agencies just want to make money.

Contractually it's very hard in the new world to pin responsibility and payments on the contractors (regardless of what paper contracts may say) and end clients don't want contractors as they don't trust their own staff not to screw things up and accidentally move the contractors inside IR35.

Believe it or not I'm actually getting to the point where I believe HMRC's sledgehammer approach is the only approach. Shame they haven't fixed expenses as that's screwed up the flexible workforce but hey ho something had to give.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Look, if your contract is reviewed as outside IR35 and you want the working practices to back this determination up, it's up to you to treat this like a B2B relationship and stress to the client from the outset that it should be that way. It's up to you to call things out with the client if they start treating you like an employee even if that risks the contract being terminated. If they insist on treating you like a permie its up to *you* to either a) walk away and find a new gig or b) deal with it and operate IR35 correctly and pay the right taxes.

Yes it sucks that an agency can give you an IR35-friendly contract that passes review but the client's working practices don't match up with it, but that's just the way things are.

[jamesbrown]

It's not always obvious from day one, sometimes it can take a while for it to be really clear what it is.

When you get to the point you realise that sh*t this is inside; Do you just call it quits and pay your taxes and let them get away with it?

Yes, I'm afraid so, and you chalk it up to failing to have a better contract and to determine sooner that the terms were being broken. There is no plausible deniability with a year plus under the same or similar terms.

I think what has really happened here, if you're being honest with yourself, is that you didn't know enough about IR35 or the due diligence required, and now you're learning with all the recent publicity it has received, and you want to go back and try to blame someone else. It's understandable, because IR35 is a ****show, but you're about to turn a hard lesson into a disaster. Pay up and move on, IMHO.

[eek]

So the consensus here is that you find a contract that is outside IR35, you get the paperwork checked out all is fine.

You start working, you try operate outside of IR35 from day one. It's fine first few months but then later little things start happening and the Client is not respecting the terms of the contract.

At that point you call it quits, pay the taxes and the client gets away with it and cycle repeats. Damn life really can be unfair.

Not quite the consensus here is that you created a mess of your own making and you've made it worse every step down the line..

Up to April the likelihood of an IR35 investigation was slightly less than hell being discovered as a real place AND that even with the furnaces running at full power for 10,000 years, hell had a temperate of absolute zero (HMRC have had 15 cases in the last 10 years and even then they've lost most of those).

Instead you've made a fool of yourself for zero good reason...

[cyborg1337]

Not quite the consensus here is that you created a mess of your own making and you've made it worse every step down the line..

Up to April the likelihood of an IR35 investigation was slightly less than hell being discovered as a real place AND that even with the furnaces running at full power for 10,000 years, hell had a temperate of absolute zero (HMRC have had 15 cases in the last 10 years and even then they've lost most of those).

Instead you've made a fool of yourself for zero good reason...

Not really mate; A lot of companies are not respecting the terms of the contract. And sometimes it's difficult to just call it quits; This is quite a common problem contractors face.

I know so many guys, who are trying to operate outside of IR35, but the client is just making it really confusing them to determine the status.

[SteelyDan]

I can almost see where the OP is coming from to some extent, but when you state that you stayed in this position for a year, then it starts to unravel quickly.

For context, I had a contract which was deemed outside IR35. I had it checked with QDOS - all fine - yes, it's outside.
Within a short space of time, it was the on the ground practices & day to day experiences where things made it much clearer.
Advising when I could/should come & go, asking me why I'm leaving at such & such a time, & other examples of interference, direction, & attempted control which quickly raised flags. I had a minor bust-up over it with one of the contractors. I concluded it was clearly inside.

The irony was, many of the people there were contractors, who clearly had no idea themselves about IR35, yet they felt safe & assured because of the contract being deemed 'outside' (by the managing agency), many of whom hadn't even bothered to have the contract checked by the likes of QDOS.

I left a week later.