Am I worrying too much? Am I worrying too much? - Page 2
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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Must admit, although I get what LondonMac says, I think I am with Cojak on this one. Despite having very flexible working conditions 3 years at a company of this size just smacks of permie. The line between a project and business as usual/part and parcel is very tight and from the explanation and what the client manager said to him sounds like a step too far in to part and parcel to me.
    Yeah - this is why IR35 really irks me - the lines become blurry fast. I work *completely* different to how the regular employees do, and the client hire me because I provide a level of expertise they do not have in-house. But I understand that by switching me onto a new project and wanting to keep me for so long, it looks "dodgy". It would obviously be a lot better if I was working with them on a project basis rather than a constant 40 hour week. But again, I don't see why a business can't commit to working with a client for a long period of time - as there is only one of me currently, there is only enough time in the week!


    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Although time isn't directly a factor in IR35 it gets harder and harder to stay outside, particularly in an organisation that just sees you as part of the company, which they must do after 3 years.

    The fact both poster and client manager is talking about the person delivering I'd be very surprised if they would allow RoS as well.
    Yeah - I mean the client has said as long as they were given advance notice and were happy with the quality of work they could accept a substitute - but realistically how many software firms do this? Software isn't like bloody accounting or something (excuse my ignorance accountants), it takes a long time to understand the intricacies of the system you are dealing with. I *have* hired help before though, and it's something I'm not bothered about doing. If someone can do a part of my job faster than I can and it's financially beneficial for me to do so, why not eh

    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    I'd also be err'ing on the side of caution here to start off with. Self determining outside isn't a golden bullet. It's what we do now so at risk of an investigation as we are now, so the risk hasn't gone away.

    Remember as well... The small company exemption is likely the next thing to go when the dust settles.
    This is what has me worried - I'd rather they are a medium company, at least the risk lies with them, and they are certain they are doing things by the book! Just some of my contractor friends are aghast I even am considering moving, saying I have the "golden ticket" because I'm very unlikely to be investigated, can pay for IR35 insurance "just in case", and can stay contracting whilst waiting for the market to settle.

    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    All that, and a peach of a permie role landing in his lap just tips it for me. Just treat it like a poorly paid gig which we all get once in awhile. Do a year and come back to market with a refreshed skillset and start again.
    I wasn't even looking for it! It came about from a conversation at a meetup. I'm not gonna lie - I did wonder if a higher power is trying to tell me something! Opportunity came handed to me on a silver plate - its just the comparably low pay that's getting to me, but I suppose it's getting all of us! Treating it as a poorly paid gig is actually a very conscious-soothing way to look at it

    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    That's what 99% of the rest of the population manage to do so I'd put that right to the very back of your problems. Do they not have a WFH option? You would be very unlucky if they didn;t.
    You have a very cushy gig but you are a contractor and they end. It's what we do. Got to get over that bit.
    Thank you. As a lurker I've of course seen you comment a load over this forum, and I have to say this last part really resonated with me. We have our peaks and troughs, and I should maybe be grateful I have something else lined up.

    If I can make it work with my current client - I would like to, as I said before mainly because of the remote working with the upcoming child but also because I'm genuinely quite excited about the next project!

    But either way, that was a sobering response so thanks!

  2. #12

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    I am inclined to agree with NLUK on this thread and some others regarding his point of length of contract. The longer the contract, the harder a lot of factors become to justify, regardless of size of company.

  3. #13

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    If the client wants to keep you and is willing to do what's necessary to help you stay outside, this is easy.

    Go through CEST as if you were the client, answering all the questions on Substitution and Supervision/Direction/Control the way you want to work with them to stay on the right side of the business-to-business line.

    Then, make sure the client agrees with those things (sounds like they will agree on substitution). Then, you sit down with them and go through it with them, question by question. Print the results, and ask them to give you a signed statement that this is an accurate representation of your business relationship.

    Sorted.

    It doesn't make you an employee that they like your work and offer you a contract for their next project. Even if it happens multiple times. It's SDC and the lack of the right of substitution, and Mutuality of Obligation beyond an irreducible minimum, that makes you an employee / inside IR35.

    If you are direct with a client that wants to keep you and is willing to structure the relationship to keep it outside, you can nail this down pretty comfortably.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by WordIsBond View Post
    If the client wants to keep you and is willing to do what's necessary to help you stay outside, this is easy.

    Go through CEST as if you were the client, answering all the questions on Substitution and Supervision/Direction/Control the way you want to work with them to stay on the right side of the business-to-business line.

    Then, make sure the client agrees with those things (sounds like they will agree on substitution). Then, you sit down with them and go through it with them, question by question. Print the results, and ask them to give you a signed statement that this is an accurate representation of your business relationship.

    Sorted.

    It doesn't make you an employee that they like your work and offer you a contract for their next project. Even if it happens multiple times. It's SDC and the lack of the right of substitution, and Mutuality of Obligation beyond an irreducible minimum, that makes you an employee / inside IR35.

    If you are direct with a client that wants to keep you and is willing to structure the relationship to keep it outside, you can nail this down pretty comfortably.
    Better still set up as a managed service offering. You own what you do and sell it to them as a service. They don't have to worry about the technicalities. Just get a service for money.

    If not that play the game and get yourself a Preferred Company email and then sell to them on fixed cost with milestone payments.

    Might not help defend the past but will certainly bat off any snooping in to what you do now.

    Does sound like you've missed a trick all these years if client is open to these ideas.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by WordIsBond
    If you are direct with a client that wants to keep you and is willing to structure the relationship to keep it outside, you can nail this down pretty comfortably.
    @WordIsBond I got back my QDOS review - I answered a question incorrectly (goes to show how much they read into my comments which would have contradicted the answer I accidentally gave) and it appears this was the only reason they would mark me INSIDE - is the fact that I said I don't have control over how I deliver my work. As said before I do have effective total control other than obviously making sure I build something that fits into the clients constraints.

    They also noted my physical name in the actual contract could be changed, and the work hours don't look great. But other than that I think if I get back to them and say "I answered this by mistake, also how do you feel about staying on for a fourth year" and they mark me OUTSIDE, are you saying as long as I can get my client to sign off saying they agree that is how our working relationship is, then I'm good to go?

    At what point would you say I should move on however? My main concern now is, if people think contracting is dead in 12 months time and I am told "definitely leave your current contract by Year 4" then I'm potentially going to be stuck in a dodgy job market for the sake of one extra year.


    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Better still set up as a managed service offering. You own what you do and sell it to them as a service. They don't have to worry about the technicalities. Just get a service for money.

    If not that play the game and get yourself a Preferred Company email and then sell to them on fixed cost with milestone payments.

    Might not help defend the past but will certainly bat off any snooping in to what you do now.

    Does sound like you've missed a trick all these years if client is open to these ideas.

    Is there any way you could further clarify on this? I'm not sure what a "managed service offering" is, and how difficult it is to 'switch' over.

    I also have no idea what a Preferred Company email is, and I don't get how fixed cost works in practice.

    Does it mean "I don't need you to pay me by the day, just pay me 60k by the end of a six month contract", but ask for tranches of that pay every 2 months or whatever? How does that work if I have scuppered my dates and now need to deliver late, or I am ill for a period of time and cannot deliver or whatever? I'm not sure how logistically this all works out.


    Thanks all!

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0index View Post
    I do have a strong warchest - and live with my dad .
    Stop right there

    Take a year off and delight in your newborn child - time and memories and bonding you will never get back


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofTarbera View Post
    Stop right there

    Take a year off and delight in your newborn child - time and memories and bonding you will never get back


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum
    But I could spend time with my newborn child and keep working my existing gig? As a software developer I have bursts of intense concentration and then a few fairly lengthy breaks - and I'm happy to work round the clock in that fashion.

    This is the main reason I want to continue with my current gig, as much as I am salivating at the learning opportunity with the perm role + boost to the CV + temp laying low from the contractor market - I think staying at home and being around my child (and also bringing in more cash to look after it) is the decision I will regret least? And if the work dries up before the year is up then yeah I can just chill and take my time to figure out what to do next, but annoyingly have burned my bridges with the company offering the perm gig.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0index View Post
    But I could spend time with my newborn child and keep working my existing gig? As a software developer I have bursts of intense concentration and then a few fairly lengthy breaks - and I'm happy to work round the clock in that fashion.

    This is the main reason I want to continue with my current gig, as much as I am salivating at the learning opportunity with the perm role + boost to the CV + temp laying low from the contractor market - I think staying at home and being around my child (and also bringing in more cash to look after it) is the decision I will regret least? And if the work dries up before the year is up then yeah I can just chill and take my time to figure out what to do next, but annoyingly have burned my bridges with the company offering the perm gig.
    You live with your dad with no bills

    When baby is born your life will change forever, your newborn will totally understand your busts of intense concentration and sleep 23 hours a day


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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofTarbera View Post
    You live with your dad with no bills

    When baby is born your life will change forever, your newborn will totally understand your busts of intense concentration and sleep 23 hours a day


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum
    I do still have outgoings, just around 6-900 quid less than most people who pay a mortgage.

    My dad is retired, and my wife will be on maternity, so I don't think I need to provide baby cover the entire day - also if I did find I needed to "concentrate" and couldn't be in the same house, I have a WeWork close to me that I am going to start renting hotdesk space for should I continue.

    I like the idea of taking a whole year off, but with the wife on reduced pay I don't think the wisest decision is to slowly eat through my warchest when I have the option to keep earning money.

    In a seriously worst case scenario, I could even just tell my client I'm only around to give three days a week.

    Do you not agree?

  10. #20

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    Davies v Braithwaite it was said
    Contract lawyer (UK) Roger Sinclair Egos Ltd – IR35 - length

    "When a person occupies a post resting on a contract, and if then that is employment as opposed to a mere engagement in the course of carrying on a profession, I do not think that is a very difficult term of distinction, though perhaps a little difficult to apply to all cases. But I would go further than that and say that it seems to me that where one finds a method of earning a livelihood which does not consist of the obtaining of a post and staying in it, but consists of a series of engagements and moving from one to the other and in the case of an actor's or actress's life it certainly involves going from one to the other and not going on playing one part for the rest of his or her life, but in obtaining one engagement, then another, and a whole series of them then each of those engagements cannot be considered employment, but is a mere engagement in the course of exercising a profession, and every profession and every trade does involve the making of successive engagements and successive contracts and, in one sense of the word, employments."

    Thus the principle of a pattern of successive engagements (essentially, the same position as a contractor today) has been recognised as being wholly consistent with no more that 'incidents in the course of (a) professional career', and thus not intrinsically being any form of employment pointer.

    That said, the Contractor who remains with one client for a succession of different contracts and projects may be running an unnecessary risk - although (s)he may be able to say that doing so represents no more than exercising sound management.

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