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HELP, I'm new and think I have been overcharged

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    #41
    Originally posted by simonsjdaccountancy View Post
    Ah OK - so you advance the amount you deduct. Not sure those sorts of semantics would get around AWR, but then, it's not exactly clear at the moment is it :-)
    Simon, at the point of deduction, the amount of money received by the Umbrella company is a business to business invoice. They have to make all contributions out of this sum, including ERNI, fee, Holiday Pay, and PBA so its not technically a deduction from the contractor at all.

    Also there is provision for the advance payment of PBA within Regulation 10 of the legislation. If an Umbrella makes £100 per month for a contractor who uses them for 6 months, and ends up with a £1000 PBA liability it wouldnt really make sense would it?

    Another point to note is that it is not the Umbrella company who wants to avoid AWR. I would imagine it would be no skin off their noses at all to simply send a questionnaire to the agency, who in turn could send one to the client. This would almost certainly discharge their obligations under AWR. The Derogation model as I understand it is being pushed onto Umbrella's by agencies who can't or won't manage their clients properly and get them to provide Comparator and Qualifying period data.

    Not trying to throw my weight around, understand I'm a noob, just making a small point or two!
    No, its not a banana in my pocket

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      #42
      Originally posted by LottoPlayer View Post
      Simon, at the point of deduction, the amount of money received by the Umbrella company is a business to business invoice. They have to make all contributions out of this sum, including ERNI, fee, Holiday Pay, and PBA so its not technically a deduction from the contractor at all.

      Also there is provision for the advance payment of PBA within Regulation 10 of the legislation. If an Umbrella makes £100 per month for a contractor who uses them for 6 months, and ends up with a £1000 PBA liability it wouldnt really make sense would it?

      Another point to note is that it is not the Umbrella company who wants to avoid AWR. I would imagine it would be no skin off their noses at all to simply send a questionnaire to the agency, who in turn could send one to the client. This would almost certainly discharge their obligations under AWR. The Derogation model as I understand it is being pushed onto Umbrella's by agencies who can't or won't manage their clients properly and get them to provide Comparator and Qualifying period data.

      Not trying to throw my weight around, understand I'm a noob, just making a small point or two!
      Would you mind quoting the provision within section 10 that allows for the deduction and advance repayment of PBA 'cos I can't see anything:

      Permanent contracts providing for pay between assignments

      10.—(1) To the extent to which it relates to pay, regulation 5 does not have effect in relation to an agency worker who has a permanent contract of employment with a temporary work agency if—

      (a)the contract of employment was entered into before the beginning of the first assignment under that contract and includes terms and conditions in writing relating to—

      (i)the minimum scale or rate of remuneration or the method of calculating remuneration,

      (ii)the location or locations where the agency worker may be expected to work,

      (iii)the expected hours of work during any assignment,

      (iv)the maximum number of hours of work that the agency worker may be required to work each week during any assignment,

      (v)the minimum hours of work per week that may be offered to the agency worker during any assignment provided that it is a minimum of at least one hour, and

      (vi)the nature of the work that the agency worker may expect to be offered including any relevant requirements relating to qualifications or experience;

      (b)the contract of employment contains a statement that the effect of entering into it is that the employee does not, during the currency of the contract, have any entitlement to the rights conferred by regulation 5 insofar as they relate to pay;

      (c)during any period under the contract in which the agency worker is not working temporarily for and under the supervision and direction of a hirer but is available to do so—

      (i)the temporary work agency takes reasonable steps to seek suitable work for the agency worker,

      (ii)if suitable work is available, the temporary work agency offers the agency worker to be proposed to a hirer who is offering such work, and

      (iii)the temporary work agency pays the agency worker a minimum amount of remuneration in respect of that period (“the minimum amount”); and

      (d)the temporary work agency does not terminate the contract of employment until it has complied with its obligations in sub-paragraph (c) for an aggregate of not less than four calendar weeks during the contract.

      (2) For work to be suitable for the purposes of paragraph (1)(c) the nature of the work, and the terms and conditions applicable to the agency worker whilst performing the work, must not differ from the nature of the work and the terms and conditions included in the contract of employment under paragraph (1)(a).
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        #43
        Originally posted by LisaContractorUmbrella View Post
        Would you mind quoting the provision within section 10 that allows for the deduction and advance repayment of PBA 'cos I can't see anything:

        Permanent contracts providing for pay between assignments

        10.—(1) To the extent to which it relates to pay, regulation 5 does not have effect in relation to an agency worker who has a permanent contract of employment with a temporary work agency if—

        (a)the contract of employment was entered into before the beginning of the first assignment under that contract and includes terms and conditions in writing relating to—

        (i)the minimum scale or rate of remuneration or the method of calculating remuneration,

        (ii)the location or locations where the agency worker may be expected to work,

        (iii)the expected hours of work during any assignment,

        (iv)the maximum number of hours of work that the agency worker may be required to work each week during any assignment,

        (v)the minimum hours of work per week that may be offered to the agency worker during any assignment provided that it is a minimum of at least one hour, and

        (vi)the nature of the work that the agency worker may expect to be offered including any relevant requirements relating to qualifications or experience;

        (b)the contract of employment contains a statement that the effect of entering into it is that the employee does not, during the currency of the contract, have any entitlement to the rights conferred by regulation 5 insofar as they relate to pay;

        (c)during any period under the contract in which the agency worker is not working temporarily for and under the supervision and direction of a hirer but is available to do so—

        (i)the temporary work agency takes reasonable steps to seek suitable work for the agency worker,

        (ii)if suitable work is available, the temporary work agency offers the agency worker to be proposed to a hirer who is offering such work, and

        (iii)the temporary work agency pays the agency worker a minimum amount of remuneration in respect of that period (“the minimum amount”); and

        (d)the temporary work agency does not terminate the contract of employment until it has complied with its obligations in sub-paragraph (c) for an aggregate of not less than four calendar weeks during the contract.

        (2) For work to be suitable for the purposes of paragraph (1)(c) the nature of the work, and the terms and conditions applicable to the agency worker whilst performing the work, must not differ from the nature of the work and the terms and conditions included in the contract of employment under paragraph (1)(a).
        Hi Lisa

        This is the specific clause which can be interpreted to provision making payments during the contract.

        (d)the temporary work agency does not terminate the contract of employment until it has complied with its obligations in sub-paragraph (c) for an aggregate of not less than four calendar weeks during the contract.
        No, its not a banana in my pocket

        Comment


          #44
          BTW, I'm not saying I agree with it......Just that there isn't anything which states when the PBA element should be paid.
          No, its not a banana in my pocket

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by GeorgeD View Post
            The old Parasol payslip had the items
            Parasol Administration ann Employers NI
            these are now
            Parasol Margin and Employment costs

            I just can' t work out the Employment costs on my Payslip and at the moment I believe I have been overcharged by about £160.

            Steven@Parasol if you read this can I take you up on the offer you made in your post (20th October 2011 10:09) "to go through this in more detail".

            I've had the the calculation explanation in that post emailed to me twice, but I can't equate it to the Employment Costs in my payslip (and shouldn't the calculation be 13.8/100 anyway?).
            Your post also says
            "but they also include amounts to cover your insurance costs, as well as enough funds in order to pay you should you be on sick leave or maternity leave etc."

            I can only assume theses are new charges, as they never showed up before or were included in the Parasol Administration fee (as it was then)

            If so, can you just introduce new charges like that with out any notification? isn't that a change to the contract?

            If your currently with Parasol could you check your Payslips and see if it adds up
            If your thinking about joining Parasol, please use their Pay Calculator and make sure you understand the Employment Costs
            Steven is on holiday for a few days, but please feel free to email me at [email protected] or give me a call on 01925 645242 (my direct line). Also, you can phone the employee support team on 0844 875 0079.

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by LottoPlayer View Post
              Hi Lisa

              This is the specific clause which can be interpreted to provision making payments during the contract.

              (d)the temporary work agency does not terminate the contract of employment until it has complied with its obligations in sub-paragraph (c) for an aggregate of not less than four calendar weeks during the contract.
              That's just saying that the umbrella company cannot terminate the employment contract before they have fulfilled their obligations - you have to consider the difference between an assignment, between which payment must be made, and contract which is the overarching contract of employment.
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                #47
                Originally posted by LisaContractorUmbrella View Post
                That's just saying that the umbrella company cannot terminate the employment contract before they have fulfilled their obligations - you have to consider the difference between an assignment, between which payment must be made, and contract which is the overarching contract of employment.
                I think you're agreeing with me there Lisa. That is as you rightly point just saying that the umbrella company cannot terminate the employment contract before they have fulfilled their obligations. However this is the only clause which mentions when the PBA should be paid. Therefore as long is it is paid before termination of the contract of employment, the obligation can be discharged as soon or as late as the Umbrella/Agency determine commercially viable without any risk or breaching R10.

                I suppose if you could show me anywhere in R10 that states that the PBA has to be paid at the time between assignments then that might also settle it!

                Also you need to consider that this legislation is designed to protect vulnerable and low paid agency workers. Not highly paid consultant and therefore its pretty self policing in my mind. As far as I understand, it isn't possible for any genuinely low paid guys to be included in any rolled up or advance PBA without the client or agency actually paying more as there isn't enough 'commission' available to represent as PBA.

                You might be able to clarify that a little, being from an Umbrella.

                Again. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it........Its just how I see it.
                No, its not a banana in my pocket

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by LottoPlayer View Post
                  I think you're agreeing with me there Lisa. That is as you rightly point just saying that the umbrella company cannot terminate the employment contract before they have fulfilled their obligations. However this is the only clause which mentions when the PBA should be paid. Therefore as long is it is paid before termination of the contract of employment, the obligation can be discharged as soon or as late as the Umbrella/Agency determine commercially viable without any risk or breaching R10.

                  I suppose if you could show me anywhere in R10 that states that the PBA has to be paid at the time between assignments then that might also settle it!

                  Also you need to consider that this legislation is designed to protect vulnerable and low paid agency workers. Not highly paid consultant and therefore its pretty self policing in my mind. As far as I understand, it isn't possible for any genuinely low paid guys to be included in any rolled up or advance PBA without the client or agency actually paying more as there isn't enough 'commission' available to represent as PBA.

                  You might be able to clarify that a little, being from an Umbrella.

                  Again. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it........Its just how I see it.
                  Page 38 of the final guidance on AWR from BIS is headed up "Pay Between Assignments". The first paragraph:

                  "There is an exemption from equal provisions on pay (and holiday pay) where a TWA can offer an agency worker a permanent contract of employment and pay the agency worker between assignments i.e. during the periods when the are not working when there are no available suitable assignments for the Agency Worker"
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                    #49
                    Originally posted by LisaContractorUmbrella View Post
                    Page 38 of the final guidance on AWR from BIS is headed up "Pay Between Assignments". The first paragraph:

                    "There is an exemption from equal provisions on pay (and holiday pay) where a TWA can offer an agency worker a permanent contract of employment and pay the agency worker between assignments i.e. during the periods when the are not working when there are no available suitable assignments for the Agency Worker"
                    I know, I know....Its merely down to interpretation, and I don't disagree with you entirely. I'm sure the tribunals will start spitting some results out in 2013 to clarify for everyone!!
                    No, its not a banana in my pocket

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by LottoPlayer View Post
                      I know, I know....Its merely down to interpretation, and I don't disagree with you entirely. I'm sure the tribunals will start spitting some results out in 2013 to clarify for everyone!!
                      Actually no, I think that this legislation is pretty unambiguous on this point to be honest
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