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View Full Version : Young Western European Muslims in ISIS; what is it all about?



Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 09:39
They're going to Syria and Iraq from all over Europe; it isn't purely a British problem. How have they ended up hating us so much? In general we're not talking about new muslim immigrants or the first generation immigrants who came to Europe to work and build up a good life. We're talking about people who grew up here and went to school here. Now I can think of lots of things in western society that I think are wrong, but that doesn't mean you need to cut people's heads off or wage war against the west. Do they feel somehow rejected by western society? Do they experience some moral void or nihilist lack of culture here that they're trying to replace by turning to an extreme version of the religion of their parents of grandparents?

I suspect that a few of them are just psychopaths looking for an excuse to live out their fantasites, but that can't explain all the cases. It can't simply be Islam otherwise there's be 1.6 billion people around the world with bombs strapped to them and machine guns in their hands; there aren't, so it can't be explained simply by pointing to Islam. I just dunno about this; I am simply trying to understand what has gone on in their minds and in their lives to make them want to go and lose their lives fighting for some completely crazy plan.

suityou01
22nd August 2014, 09:43
Propaganda. Simple as that.

original PM
22nd August 2014, 09:49
They have forgotten that the reason the original came to Europe was to escape oppresion, violence and poverty and to start a new way of life.

A way of life which provided free education and a safe place to raise your kids, a place where in many places you were welcomed as part of the comunity and the local folks did their best to help you integrate and also to try to understand your customs as a way of respect.

What concerns me is that there will be a huge backlash from the public and many many innocents muslims will die because of the few muppets who never understood who are what they were and let themselves be lead by religious nutters.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 09:59
They have forgotten that the reason the original came to Europe was to escape oppresion, violence and poverty and to start a new way of life.

A way of life which provided free education and a safe place to raise your kids, a place where in many places you were welcomed as part of the comunity and the local folks did their best to help you integrate and also to try to understand your customs as a way of respect.

What concerns me is that there will be a huge backlash from the public and many many innocents muslims will die because of the few muppets who never understood who are what they were and let themselves be lead by religious nutters.

Fair points. Maybe they've never really felt a part of European life and society, for some reason. If so then we need to know why, because we have a large muslim population that isn't going to disappear and somehow a feeling of alienation among the young needs to be tackled.

Last bit; indeed, and that ugly backlash is already happening; the extreme right are able to exploit this to their advantage.

Bunk
22nd August 2014, 09:59
I've often wondered if part of it is being jealous of the decadence and moral depravity which they claim to hate. They grow up here and see fellow teenagers experiencing romance, alcohol, and generally enjoying themselves, while they're forced to live a much stricter lifestyle. It would piss me off anyway, but obviously there's still a big jump from being a frustrated teenager to a terrorist.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 10:03
I've often wondered if part of it is being jealous of the decadence and moral depravity which they claim to hate. They grow up here and see fellow teenagers experiencing romance, alcohol, and generally enjoying themselves, while they're forced to live a much stricter lifestyle. It would piss me off anyway, but obviously there's still a big jump from being a frustrated teenager to a terrorist.

Well jealousy may be part of it, but on the other hand the 'depravity' in western life sometimes looks like nihilism and a complete lack of culture to me too; I think it was Norman Tebbit who suggested that the apparent lack of culture in the west leaves a hole that must be filled, and some young muslims are filling it with an extreme interpretation of Islam, obviously aided by some pretty evil preachers and terrorists with their own agenda; that's the propaganda bit that Suity referred to.

original PM
22nd August 2014, 10:11
Well jealousy may be part of it, but on the other hand the 'depravity' in western life sometimes looks like nihilism and a complete lack of culture to me too; I think it was Norman Tebbit who suggested that the apparent lack of culture in the west leaves a hole that must be filled, and some young muslims are filling it with an extreme interpretation of Islam, obviously aided by some pretty evil preachers and terrorists with their own agenda; that's the propaganda bit that Suity referred to.

The thing is what is 'depravity' the ancient Romans and greeks loved a good orgy - is that depraved?

Yes when you look at the west and you see the 'brits abroad' culture that is depraved - but it is a small minority going a bit mad abroad and making the locals a lot of money

I think what Tebbit had in mind was some sort of outdated view of family life with father standing by the fireplace puffing regally on his pipe while mother sits quietly knitting and the two children play quietly in awe of fathers reverence - that never existed and there is no hole to fill.

This is about a small number of people using the Islam religion as a guise to gain more power and money for themselves on the back of promises to naive kids who feel it is easier to pick up a gun then a pen.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 10:25
The thing is what is 'depravity' the ancient Romans and greeks loved a good orgy - is that depraved?

Yes when you look at the west and you see the 'brits abroad' culture that is depraved - but it is a small minority going a bit mad abroad and making the locals a lot of money

I think what Tebbit had in mind was some sort of outdated view of family life with father standing by the fireplace puffing regally on his pipe while mother sits quietly knitting and the two children play quietly in awe of fathers reverence - that never existed and there is no hole to fill.

This is about a small number of people using the Islam religion as a guise to gain more power and money for themselves on the back of promises to naive kids who feel it is easier to pick up a gun then a pen.

Well I don't really see the sexual freedom in the west as 'depravity'. What I DO see as depraved is a lack of cultural understanding or empathy, reality TV culture for example, where an individual who actually needs to be helped in private is laid bare to be ridiculed and laughed at, much like the freak shows of past centuries. I mean, what is the moral difference between a fairground displaying the elephant man to the public and the current fad for displaying the lives of poor, hapless individuals on TV as quasi-celebrities for the public to laugh at them?

Now I'm not suggesting that Jeremy Kyle has caused this mess; that would be as ridiculous as Tebbit's outdated idea of the happy family, which never really existed, and which I don't think he really meant, but I can see how people would get the impression that European culture has become nihilist and a cultural void, even if it hasn't.

As for that sexual freedom AND the freedom of expression, do young people growing up now know the historical context of our liberal attitudes? Do they understand anything of even very recent oppression in Europe and why we now avoid judging the sexual behaviour of others or the religious feelings of others? A few do, but I doubt it's most; yesterday I explained to a young guy at clientco why I'm off to eastern Germany and Poland on holiday, and that I want to (re)visit places where some of the most significant historical events of my life took place (as in the rise of Solidarity, the breaking of the Iron Curtain and the fall of the USSR). He didn't even know that there had been an 'Iron Curtain' never mind the significance of it, and he's got a higher vocational degree, so he obviously went to higher level secondary school. How can he hope to understand modern Europe and its culture without knowing these things?

NotAllThere
22nd August 2014, 10:27
There are people who don't crave stability and safety for themselves and their loved ones. They crave adventure. I read an article about this recently, but can't remember where. :emb :igmc:

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 10:29
There are people who don't crave stability and safety for themselves and their loved ones. They crave adventure. I read an article about this recently, but can't remember where. :emb :igmc:

Yep, but most deal with that by climbing up mountains or doing crazy tricks on bicycles.

Troll
22nd August 2014, 10:31
we have a large muslim population that isn't going to disappearFirst point would be to stop any further muslim immigration to Europe
Then perhaps a new Reconquista for Europe, they came and they can go - a failed policy of sourcing cheap labour

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 10:36
First point would be to stop any further muslim immigration to Europe


That wouldn't make any difference to second and third generation people who have grown up here in Europe.

Oh, and HOW would you stop muslim immigration? Ask people at the borders 'are you a muslim?'

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 10:37
One of the paradoxes is that they are so dependant upon the things they hate so much. They are totally reliant upon the products of western industrialism, i think they would hate having to live without facebook or twitter. They probably invented the 'selfie'. IS probably stands for Islamist selfies
Theres a bit of cognitive dissonance going on I think

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 10:45
Theres a bit of cognitive dissonance going on I think
That's a bit of an understatement.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 10:54
I've often wondered if part of it is being jealous of the decadence and moral depravity which they claim to hate. They grow up here and see fellow teenagers experiencing romance, alcohol, and generally enjoying themselves, while they're forced to live a much stricter lifestyle. It would piss me off anyway, but obviously there's still a big jump from being a frustrated teenager to a terrorist.

But what are ISIS holding these two 21 year old Italian aid workers for? Coffee? Chats about renaissance art? Protecting their female dignity? Why are there stories coming out of Iraq of ISIS sexually abusing Yazidis, including young boys?


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03014/italian_3014067b.jpg

Paddy
22nd August 2014, 11:00
They have forgotten that the reason the original came to Europe was to escape oppresion, violence and poverty and to start a new way of life.

A way of life which provided free education and a safe place to raise your kids, a place where in many places you were welcomed as part of the comunity and the local folks did their best to help you integrate and also to try to understand your customs as a way of respect.

What concerns me is that there will be a huge backlash from the public and many many innocents muslims will die because of the few muppets who never understood who are what they were and let themselves be lead by religious nutters.

They did come to Europe to escape oppression, violence and poverty, they left their own country because their extremism was not tolerated in their home county. The UK government were daft enough to accept them. The Boarder Agency too naive and believed their hard luck stories. In their home country, they are told to go to the UK and reap the benefits of Europe because it is rightly theirs.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 11:03
They are holding them because they can. It's lawless and they have the power

original PM
22nd August 2014, 11:04
Just been thinking and really it is nothing to do with Islam is it.

The 'selling point' to many of these people is
1) you get a gun
2) You do not have to do a 9 to 5 job
3) You can rape as many people as you want
4) when you die you get 4 and 20 virgins

All you have to do is stay loyal to the crew

In reality it is no different from recruiting gang members in America (except for number 4)

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 11:04
They did come to Europe to escape oppression, violence and poverty, they left their own country because their extremism was not tolerated in their home county. The UK government were daft enough to accept them. The Boarder Agency too naive and believed their hard luck stories. In their home country, they are told to go to the UK and reap the benefits of Europe because it is rightly theirs.

But we're talking about people who are the descendants of immigrants from 30 or 40 years ago before the 'border agency' even existed and well before the immigration laws were tightened up.

This is not, for the most part, about recent immigrants; it's about people who grew up in western Europe as children or grandchildren of immigrants who actually didn't cause much trouble.

Bunk
22nd August 2014, 11:06
But what are ISIS holding these two 21 year old Italian aid workers for? Coffee? Chats about renaissance art? Protecting their female dignity? Why are there stories coming out of Iraq of ISIS sexually abusing Yazidis, including young boys?


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03014/italian_3014067b.jpg

That's the problem with repression. It often causes even more extreme behaviour than that which they prohibit. Look at the Catholic church for example.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 11:12
Just been thinking and really it is nothing to do with Islam is it.

The 'selling point' to many of these people is
1) you get a gun
2) You do not have to do a 9 to 5 job
3) You can rape as many people as you want
4) when you die you get 4 and 20 virgins

All you have to do is stay loyal to the crew

In reality it is no different from recruiting gang members in America (except for number 4)

aye. and it seems crucial to me, that we dont let any of these f**kers back in, when the smoke has cleared

tomtomagain
22nd August 2014, 11:15
It's stems from a complete lack of integration.

My missus works in the health profession and visits many Muslim homes near us as part of her work.

She tells me that in many of the homes she's never seen an English book, a lot of the women cannot speak English, they watch Arabic/Pakistani television, listen to Muslim radio.

These people are not listening to Radio 4, not watching the BBC or Sky News and not engaging with wider UK society. They are living in tight-nit, closed communities, sending their kids to predominantly Muslim schools, working ( for the large majority ) in family businesses.

Modern communications allow a person to travel half-way around the world and still keep in contact with their roots, to such an extent that they never need to integrate.

And when you have that situation it becomes easy to radicalise against the perceived injustices.

original PM
22nd August 2014, 11:21
It's stems from a complete lack of integration.

My missus works in the health profession and visits many Muslim homes near us as part of her work.

She tells me that in many of the homes she's never seen an English book, a lot of the women cannot speak English, they watch Arabic/Pakistani television, listen to Muslim radio.

These people are not listening to Radio 4, not watching the BBC or Sky News and not engaging with wider UK society. They are living in tight-nit, closed communities, sending their kids to predominantly Muslim schools, working ( for the large majority ) in family businesses.

Modern communications allow a person to travel half-way around the world and still keep in contact with their roots, to such an extent that they never need to integrate.

And when you have that situation it becomes easy to radicalise against the perceived injustices.

we have catholic schools and yet we do not have the same problem - i wonder why that is?

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 11:22
It's stems from a complete lack of integration.

My missus works in the health profession and visits many Muslim homes near us as part of her work.
...
easy to radicalise against the perceived injustices.

Are these the homes of people who immigrated in the 50s, 60s and 70s?

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 11:24
Just been thinking and really it is nothing to do with Islam is it.

The 'selling point' to many of these people is
1) you get a gun
2) You do not have to do a 9 to 5 job
3) You can rape as many people as you want
4) when you die you get 4 and 20 virgins

All you have to do is stay loyal to the crew

In reality it is no different from recruiting gang members in America (except for number 4)

Craving a sense of 'belonging' to something?

original PM
22nd August 2014, 11:30
Craving a sense of 'belonging' to something?

yes and no

In the same way that we are all the same in that we go to some place of work and perform services in return for cash - some of us are perm some contractors etc but we 'belong' to a group whose do this - we do not do it out of sense of belonging but because we have bills to pay.

they do not do it out of a sense of belonging but because of what they personally get out of it, money 'girls' etc

if they were told to stop killing etc and start helping the poor and needy they would soon be back home.

mudskipper
22nd August 2014, 11:34
Haven't read the whole thread, so may be repeating what's already been said...

I think there's a number of issues:

1) Many of these boys have grown up in insular communities where white people are looked down. This is so widespread and I think is the basis of many of the problems. I recently read "Shamed" (not quite as depressing as it sounds) about a British born muslim girl who ran away to escape an arranged marriage. The insights into the community in which she was raised were quite shocking. If you were a boy brought up, for example, to see women as there for your convenience, there is perhaps little motive to reject these values - if you do, you might have to clean your own house/cook your own dinner...

2) The whole issue round identity. How often do we see "white British" being referred to? The implication is that white British = British, brown British = not really British, muslim = not really British. Even without point 1, if you're a brown British muslim, who do you identify with? A community that labels you (and frequently abuses you) as not really one of them because of the colour of your skin, or are you supposed to have some sort of inate identity with a country/culture you've never been part of?

3) The general need of young men to have a 'cause'


So you've got a bunch of kids who don't much like their fellow countrymen, who aren't really sure where they belong, and are looking for a purpose.

A bit of persuasive brainwashing and next thing they're on a plane to Syria.

Batcher
22nd August 2014, 11:40
if they were told to stop killing etc and start helping the poor and needy they would soon be back home.

Muslim countries don't get involved in aid efforts. The western countries rush to help when there's a tsunami or earthquake for example but muslim countries don't as they see these events as 'the will of God' even if the event happens in another muslim country.

original PM
22nd August 2014, 11:44
Anyone ever read a book called The Crusaders Arms?

Pondlife
22nd August 2014, 11:44
we have catholic schools and yet we do not have the same problem - i wonder why that is?

Guess what type of school one if not both of those two jihadists from Cardiff went to?

original PM
22nd August 2014, 11:45
Guess what type of school one if not both of those two jihadists from Cardiff went to?

Catholic?

what do i win?

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 11:47
Catholic?

what do i win?

a pew-lizter prize ?

OwlHoot
22nd August 2014, 11:57
They're going to Syria and Iraq from all over Europe; it isn't purely a British problem. How have they ended up hating us so much? In general we're not talking about new muslim immigrants or the first generation immigrants who came to Europe to work and build up a good life. We're talking about people who grew up here and went to school here. Now I can think of lots of things in western society that I think are wrong, but that doesn't mean you need to cut people's heads off or wage war against the west. Do they feel somehow rejected by western society? Do they experience some moral void or nihilist lack of culture here that they're trying to replace by turning to an extreme version of the religion of their parents of grandparents?

I suspect that a few of them are just psychopaths looking for an excuse to live out their fantasites, but that can't explain all the cases. It can't simply be Islam otherwise there's be 1.6 billion people around the world with bombs strapped to them and machine guns in their hands; there aren't, so it can't be explained simply by pointing to Islam. I just dunno about this; I am simply trying to understand what has gone on in their minds and in their lives to make them want to go and lose their lives fighting for some completely crazy plan.

It's conceit pure and simple - That's what motivates the vast majority of terrorists and traitors (double agents and the like).

A crusade, or being secretly "on the other side", makes them feel important, especially if they feel they are part of a powerful movement or the winning side.

That's also why terrorists tend to be better educated than average. Their heads are stuffed with a load of half-baked ideas, an arrogant sense of entitlement, and a craving for recognition.

ELBBUBKUNPS
22nd August 2014, 12:21
It's conceit pure and simple - That's what motivates the vast majority of terrorists and traitors (double agents and the like).

A crusade, or being secretly "on the other side", makes them feel important, especially if they feel they are part of a powerful movement or the winning side.

That's also why terrorists tend to be better educated than average. Their heads are stuffed with a load of half-baked ideas, an arrogant sense of entitlement, and a craving for recognition.

Plus they have small n*bs so are very angry, they have never been able to pull a lady because there so butt ugly, you see the british ones on telly who have gone over there and just think what a d*ck. They are not real men.

Avalonia
22nd August 2014, 12:23
They'll soon come running back when they see their mates getting vapourised ( as God wills it) so revoke their citizenship and don't let them back in

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 12:27
They'll soon come running back when they see their mates getting vapourised ( as God wills it) so revoke their citizenship and don't let them back in

That sounds really easy doesn't it?

It isn't though.

Avalonia
22nd August 2014, 12:30
It should be. F@@k them

ELBBUBKUNPS
22nd August 2014, 12:33
I must say it does worry me alot them comming back to the UK and getting back. My commute into work, location and particular who I work for makes it a significant target, late last year I was on Jubilee line tube when some dude got up and proceed to shout out 'he was going to kill us all' and we were 'all scum'. On the July 7th bombings I was on the tube behind the one that got hit at Liverpool Street I was on Met line to Aldergate. I even checked to see if my life insurance would payout if I was to go in a terriost attack, that ain't right. Rates in London these days are sh*t anyway, cheap labour pushing rates down, I'm seeing better rates and salaries in the north these days !

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 12:33
Two articles, both suggest it's not about religious devotion but about fooked up young men desperate for a cause;

What makes some British Muslims become jihadis? – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283661/what-makes-some-british-muslims-fight-for-isis/)


When critics describe the jihadis as "mediaeval" they have things the wrong way round. Mediaeval Islam was, by the standards of its day, tolerant and enlightened. The extreme form of Wahhabism embraced by the jihadis is, by contrast, a modernist philosophy. Like communism, fascism and every other -ism that promises a new dawn, it makes no concessions, either to past tradition or to human nature. It holds out a vision of something so pure that it can, in practice, never be achieved. This purity is precisely what appeals to a certain type of youngster.

What the Jihadists Who Bought 'Islam For Dummies' on Amazon Tell Us About Radicalisation*|*Mehdi Hasan (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html)


...the books of the forensic psychiatrist and former CIA officer Marc Sageman; the political scientist Robert Pape; the international relations scholar Rik Coolsaet; the Islamism expert Olivier Roy; the anthropologist Scott Atran. They have all studied the lives and backgrounds of hundreds of gun-toting, bomb-throwing jihadists and they all agree that Islam isn't to blame for the behaviour of such men (and, yes, they usually are men).

Instead they point to other drivers of radicalisation: moral outrage, disaffection, peer pressure, the search for a new identity, for a sense of belonging and purpose. As Atran pointed out in testimony to the US Senate in March 2010: ". . . what inspires the most lethal terrorists in the world today is not so much the Quran or religious teachings as a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in the wider world". He described wannabe jihadists as "bored, under*employed, overqualified and underwhelmed" young men for whom "jihad is an egalitarian, equal-opportunity employer . . . thrilling, glorious and cool".

Or, as Chris Morris, the writer and director of the 2010 black comedy Four Lions - which satirised the ignorance, incompetence and sheer banality of British Muslim jihadists - once put it: "Terrorism is about ideology, but it's also about berks."

NotAllThere
22nd August 2014, 12:34
... They are living in tight-nit, closed communities..."The vast majority of Britain's Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities come from just two relatively small towns - Sylhet in northern Bangladesh and Mirpur in Pakistani Kashmir". (Article in the Times today)

sirja
22nd August 2014, 12:34
Haven't read the whole thread, so may be repeating what's already been said...

I think there's a number of issues:

1) Many of these boys have grown up in insular communities where white people are looked down. This is so widespread and I think is the basis of many of the problems. I recently read "Shamed" (not quite as depressing as it sounds) about a British born muslim girl who ran away to escape an arranged marriage. The insights into the community in which she was raised were quite shocking. If you were a boy brought up, for example, to see women as there for your convenience, there is perhaps little motive to reject these values - if you do, you might have to clean your own house/cook your own dinner...

2) The whole issue round identity. How often do we see "white British" being referred to? The implication is that white British = British, brown British = not really British, muslim = not really British. Even without point 1, if you're a brown British muslim, who do you identify with? A community that labels you (and frequently abuses you) as not really one of them because of the colour of your skin, or are you supposed to have some sort of inate identity with a country/culture you've never been part of?

3) The general need of young men to have a 'cause'


So you've got a bunch of kids who don't much like their fellow countrymen, who aren't really sure where they belong, and are looking for a purpose.

A bit of persuasive brainwashing and next thing they're on a plane to Syria.

I think you've really come close to hitting the nail on the head. There is indeed a large amount of 'counter British Culture' teaching that occurs in a lot of Muslim families and communities. They are taught that the rest of us are unclean infidels, white and black girls are sluts blah blah. How do you expect such young man to suddenly grow up and be well adjusted members of society. I don't agree that it's all done to lack of integration per se. A lot of orientals are not well integrated but they don't have the extreme anti-western doctrine so the 2nd and 3rd generation Chinese kids tend to be well adjusted. I don't know what the solution is, but I feel the far right is licking it's chops in anticipation that it's moment may soon arrive.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 12:40
It should be. F@@k them

Well it isn't easy to revoke citizenship and it never will be, except in the case of another recognised citizenship, so your suggestion can't really gain much traction.

Besides, Britain and Europe supplied these bastards; shouldn't they take responsibility for dealing with them?

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 12:44
Well it isn't easy to revoke citizenship and it never will be, except in the case of another recognised citizenship, so your suggestion can't really gain much traction.

Besides, Britain and Europe supplied these bastards; shouldn't they take responsibility for dealing with them?

Depends on how soon we can set up relations with the new Caliph(PBUH).
Set up an embassy, transfer citizenship, revoke passports.

There are two stages to this, identifying the gits, having the political will.

Avalonia
22nd August 2014, 12:45
We better just wring our hands and pontificate on a forum then. our elected representatives need to deal with the enemy within. Not make serious faces then f@@k off back to Cornwall

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 12:47
We better just wring our hands and pontificate on a forum then. our elected representatives need to deal with the enemy within. Not make serious faces then f@@k off back to Cornwall

we have more powerful sanctions at our disposal than that, we could 'de-friend' them on facebook

quackhandle
22nd August 2014, 12:52
This ISIS/IS are supposed to be Shia Muslims, which only accounts for 5% (stand to be corrected) of worldwide pop. but Muslims from UK are going to fight for the cause, but they would be Sunnis?

I saw a IS propaganda video yesterday on the news showing a load of Yazidis who have supposed to have "turned" to Islam. When you have a number of Kalashnikovs pointed at you, there isn't much you wouldn't do. :eyes

qh

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 12:55
We better just wring our hands and pontificate on a forum then. our elected representatives need to deal with the enemy within. Not make serious faces then f@@k off back to Cornwall

No, I'm trying to understand what's going on in their lives to turn their minds to this kind of lunacy. There isn't a solution without some understanding of what's going on. Actually I think Daniel Hannan's made some valid points in the Telegraph (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283661/what-makes-some-british-muslims-fight-for-isis/) and some posters here have said some sensible things about 'identity' and young men seeking a cause. I also think that the (understandable IMO) perception of a nihilist culture in the west needs to be tackled by showing young people recent European history to put our liberal attitudes into context as being a response to barbaric acts in the past.

We've been doing the knee jerk things for years, especially since 9/11 and it just doesn't seem to be working. I think western Europeans, and I include western European muslims, have some serious cultural issues we need to tackle. One of them is the failure to show some moral confidence on our own cultures; PC went too far and shot past its original goals. Racism and virulent nationalism need to be countered, but at the same time that can't mean having a wishy washy attitude to our own culture and those who attack it.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:08
This ISIS/IS are supposed to be Shia Muslims, which only accounts for 5% (stand to be corrected) of worldwide pop. but Muslims from UK are going to fight for the cause, but they would be Sunnis?

qh

If this guy's to be believed that distinction might be a little too subtle for them;

What the Jihadists Who Bought 'Islam For Dummies' on Amazon Tell Us About Radicalisation | Mehdi Hasan (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html)

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:10
Depends on how soon we can set up relations with the new Caliph(PBUH).
Set up an embassy, transfer citizenship, revoke passports.

There are two stages to this, identifying the gits, having the political will.

Are you suggesting recognising IS as a state?

I think that would cause even more trouble. Correction, I'm sure that would cause even more trouble.

tomtomagain
22nd August 2014, 13:13
Are these the homes of people who immigrated in the 50s, 60s and 70s?

These are the homes of the population of child-bearing age.

But many of the homes are inter-generational.

Avalonia
22nd August 2014, 13:14
Nobody would advocate understanding Nazis. same thing. They need de nazifying

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:22
Nobody would advocate understanding Nazis. same thing. They need de nazifying

Difficult without first understanding how they became Nazis. I'm pretty sure there were psychologists involved in developing the denazification strategies in post war Germany, and doing so from a scientific understanding of what had driven people to Nazism.

The idea that you can solve a problem without understanding it seems rather strange to me.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 13:37
Are you suggesting recognising IS as a state?

I think that would cause even more trouble. Correction, I'm sure that would cause even more trouble.

How long do you think it might be before we ally with Al Queada against ISIS ?

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:40
How long do you think it might be before we ally with Al Queada against ISIS ?

Bizarre thought, but anything's possible.

Perhaps Iran would be a more logical ally; they have a lot to fear from having a Sunni caliphate nextdoor.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 13:43
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsRqhES9UKiSNW-jPT9X36qCE4iHbzrszpC51ybzgo94qrEQsD

Flashman
22nd August 2014, 13:47
I wonder how much the British government has spent on 'community cohesion' since the July bombings of 2005?

Ah well keeps someone in a job I suppose.

original PM
22nd August 2014, 13:48
Difficult without first understanding how they became Nazis. I'm pretty sure there were psychologists involved in developing the denazification strategies in post war Germany, and doing so from a scientific understanding of what had driven people to Nazism.

The idea that you can solve a problem without understanding it seems rather strange to me.

True but maybe the problem is as simple as the fact that these people do not want to get a regular job and live like regular people?

They see more fun, more power, more money and less effort in doing this so they do it.

If it was about culture or other 'social' things then every young Muslim would be doing it but they are not so it comes down to individual choice.

Pretty simplistic but sometimes simple is best

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:48
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsRqhES9UKiSNW-jPT9X36qCE4iHbzrszpC51ybzgo94qrEQsD

Well Hassan Rouhani seems a bit more sensible than Mahmood Ahmadinnerjacket ever was and seems to want better relations with the rest of the world; he might be helpful seeing as there are now reports of Shias being treated the same way as the Yazidis. On the other hand, maybe he thinks Iran should stay well out of that wasps nest, which would be understandable.

Zero Liability
22nd August 2014, 13:49
The only reason that you can't blame their religion is because, as any tool for political control, it has been chopped and changed to suit the purposes of the rulers. So no wonder there's so many conflicting interpretations of this particular set of fanciful myths. However, this refers simply to the texts, and they're just part of the religion; the clerics who interpret them and call for acts of terror against the West are another that can't be ignored.

Part of it is no doubt a reaction to the US' meddling in the Middle East, and there is a lack of confidence or foundation in Western culture and particularly ethics, but it's not like their murderous fantasies are any better or worthy of a moment's consideration. It is a shame that they don't just go to the theocracies they admire and remain there. I'm sure there's multiple psychological drivers behind it and it does highlight issues in how the government deals with this growing problem. I don't think it gives a toss. As long as Westminster, HMRC and the BOE are not targeted, it's not their problem.

Bunk
22nd August 2014, 13:50
Well Hassan Rouhani seems a bit more sensible than Mahmood Ahmadinnerjacket ever was and seems to want better relations with the rest of the world; he might be helpful seeing as there are now reports of Shias being treated the same way as the Yazidis. On the other hand, maybe he thinks Iran should stay well out of that wasps nest, which would be understandable.

I suspect that would be like burying one's head in the sand though.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 13:52
Well Hassan Rouhani seems a bit more sensible than Mahmood Ahmadinnerjacket and seems to want better relations with the rest of the world; he might be helpful seeing as there are now reports of Shias being treated the same way as the Yazidis. On the other hand, maybe he thinks Iran should stay well out of that wasps nest, which would be understandable.

True.
I think I am less inclined to try to understand the kids than you are. In my mind they are murdrous criminals. wannabees


The thought of 500 returning jihadii wannabe wahabis, armed with illegally obtained 600 watt hoovers, demanding that julian Assange be released so that he can take part in the big brother ice bucket challenge, fills me with dread. It does.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:54
I suspect that would be like burying one's head in the sand though.

Some Iranians feel that way about it, it would seem.

Many Iranians want military to intervene against Isis | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2014/jun/27/iran-isis-military-intervention)

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 13:55
True.
I think I am less inclined to try to understand the kids than you are. In my mind they are murdrous criminals. wannabees



I don't want to understand them so as to treat them with kid gloves; it's simply to work out how to prevent more kids going that way and what needs to change to prevent it. It might also be worthwhile finding out what their fears are, seeing as they don't seem to be afraid of dying. In my mind, they're murderous criminals, but that doesn't make them less important to understand.

lilelvis2000
22nd August 2014, 13:57
How long do you think it might be before we ally with Al Queada against ISIS ?

Aren't they funded by the same people? Both are Sunni groups, so I don't get that AQ would attack ISIS.

Zero Liability
22nd August 2014, 13:58
True.
I think I am less inclined to try to understand the kids than you are. In my mind they are murdrous criminals. wannabees


The thought of 500 returning jihadii wannabe wahabis, armed with illegally obtained 600 watt hoovers, demanding that julian Assange be released so that he can take part in the big brother ice bucket challenge, fills me with dread. It does.

It's the same as the whole Elliot Rodgers thing - there's very understandable reasons why he went nuts (including a father in name alone) but he was still a murderer who took the lives of innocents who had nothing to do with it. It's funny how he also constructed an ideology to deal with his self perception of his failings and I doubt these guys are any different. At a certain point, there is no return, and they are dangerous and beyond cure. Some are probably just run of the mill psychopaths, looking for an excuse, though.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 14:00
I don't want to understand them so as to treat them with kid gloves; it's simply to work out how to prevent more kids going that way and what needs to change to prevent it. It might also be worthwhile finding out what their fears are, seeing as they don't seem to be afraid of dying. In my mind, they're murderous criminals, but that doesn't make them less important to understand.

to prevent kids going that way ?

luck
a dad
good role models
fantastic excitement in life
birds
a job
a sense that things are improving
positive mental attitude

Zero Liability
22nd August 2014, 14:02
to prevent kids going that way ?

luck
a dad
good role models
fantastic excitement in life
birds
a job
a sense that things are improving
positive mental attitude
Second and third are crucial, IMO.

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 14:03
Aren't they funded by the same people? Both are Sunni groups, so I don't get that AQ would attack ISIS.

Apparently Al Qaida consider ISIS 'too extreme'.

Al-Qaeda disavows any ties with radical Islamist ISIS group in Syria, Iraq - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/al-qaeda-disavows-any-ties-with-radical-islamist-isis-group-in-syria-iraq/2014/02/03/2c9afc3a-8cef-11e3-98ab-fe5228217bd1_story.html)

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 14:04
to prevent kids going that way ?

luck
a dad
good role models
fantastic excitement in life
birds
a job
a sense that things are improving
positive mental attitude

There's perhaps the one thing that a comfy life in the west doesn't really provide.

Bunk
22nd August 2014, 14:04
Apparently Al Qaida consider ISIS 'too extreme'.

Al-Qaeda disavows any ties with radical Islamist ISIS group in Syria, Iraq - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/al-qaeda-disavows-any-ties-with-radical-islamist-isis-group-in-syria-iraq/2014/02/03/2c9afc3a-8cef-11e3-98ab-fe5228217bd1_story.html)

Which says a lot :eyes

Mich the Tester
22nd August 2014, 14:05
Which says a lot :eyes

Indeed; Mr Bin Laden apparently thought they were a bunch of nutters.

http://rt.com/news/179844-osama-isis-iraq-letter/

Gibbon
22nd August 2014, 14:17
to prevent kids going that way ?

luck
a dad
good role models
fantastic excitement in life
birdsa job
a sense that things are improving
positive mental attitude

Can we have more than one at once?

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 14:21
Can we have more than one at once?

if you are a muslim, you get none till you are 50.
then you can have 4

Batcher
22nd August 2014, 14:24
if you are a muslim, you get none till you are 50.
then you can have 4 aged 7-12

FTFY

Gibbon
22nd August 2014, 14:26
if you are a muslim, you get none till you are 50.
then you can have 4

3 years to go then...... How will how I know which ones to pick?

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 14:27
3 years to go then...... How will how I know which ones to pick?

dont worry.things will be arranged

Unix
22nd August 2014, 14:31
They're going to Syria and Iraq from all over Europe; it isn't purely a British problem. How have they ended up hating us so much? In general we're not talking about new muslim immigrants or the first generation immigrants who came to Europe to work and build up a good life. We're talking about people who grew up here and went to school here. Now I can think of lots of things in western society that I think are wrong, but that doesn't mean you need to cut people's heads off or wage war against the west. Do they feel somehow rejected by western society? Do they experience some moral void or nihilist lack of culture here that they're trying to replace by turning to an extreme version of the religion of their parents of grandparents?

I suspect that a few of them are just psychopaths looking for an excuse to live out their fantasites, but that can't explain all the cases. It can't simply be Islam otherwise there's be 1.6 billion people around the world with bombs strapped to them and machine guns in their hands; there aren't, so it can't be explained simply by pointing to Islam. I just dunno about this; I am simply trying to understand what has gone on in their minds and in their lives to make them want to go and lose their lives fighting for some completely crazy plan.

Simple, they believe in God and the teachings of Islam. When you walk around an town or city you will see hundreds of stunning Church building, these were built by people with a similar delusion.

Gibbon
22nd August 2014, 14:33
dont worry.things will be arranged

Thank you imam, (ps, could I have the pipe cleaner please).

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 14:36
Thank you imam, (ps, could I have the pipe cleaner please).

you'll catch ISIS-itis

smalldog
22nd August 2014, 14:42
Simple, they believe in God and the teachings of Islam. When you walk around an town or city you will see hundreds of stunning Church building, these were built by people with a similar delusion.

yep the crusades is evidence of how we tried to spread our religious beliefs of the time. The IS lot are just a Millennia behind the times.

Gibbon
22nd August 2014, 14:43
you'll catch ISIS-itis

Imam, you said they were virgins! What have you been up to?

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 14:50
Imam, you said they were virgins! What have you been up to?

CaliphEO never lies. they are mostly virgin-ish

SueEllen
22nd August 2014, 15:04
Imam, you said they were virgins! What have you been up to?

They are virgins they have just had this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298684/Surge-virginity-repair-operations-NHS.html)

original PM
22nd August 2014, 15:18
that is shocking...

"I have to show my bloodied bed sheets to my in laws to prove I was a virgin"

which is just barbaric really

but also not all virgins bleed

fookin loonies

:freaky:

wonderboy
22nd August 2014, 15:38
I don't want to understand them so as to treat them with kid gloves; it's simply to work out how to prevent more kids going that way and what needs to change to prevent it. It might also be worthwhile finding out what their fears are, seeing as they don't seem to be afraid of dying. In my mind, they're murderous criminals, but that doesn't make them less important to understand.

Are you being purposefully obtuse? I presume you were awake when Libya/Palestine/Iraq/Afghanistan occurred within the last 10 years?

If anything is going to send young men to violence it could well be the unimaginable violence inflicted on their kin in those countries by Apache gunships and depleted uranium.

Brussels Slumdog
22nd August 2014, 16:00
that is shocking...

"I have to show my bloodied bed sheets to my in laws to prove I was a virgin"

which is just barbaric really

but also not all virgins bleed

fookin loonies

:freaky:

I cut myself shaving on the first night. Problem solved.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
22nd August 2014, 16:19
This ISIS/IS are supposed to be Shia Muslims, which only accounts for 5% (stand to be corrected) of worldwide pop. but Muslims from UK are going to fight for the cause, but they would be Sunnis?

I saw a IS propaganda video yesterday on the news showing a load of Yazidis who have supposed to have "turned" to Islam. When you have a number of Kalashnikovs pointed at you, there isn't much you wouldn't do. :eyes

qh

IS are Shia Muslims? You what?

Batcher
22nd August 2014, 16:22
I cut myself shaving on the first night. Problem solved.

Giving yourself a Brazillian? :igmc:

CheeseSlice
22nd August 2014, 16:23
IS are Shia Muslims? You what?

WHS. ISIS are Sunnis last I heard.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
22nd August 2014, 16:26
WHS. ISIS are Sunnis last I heard.

Not only that but they want I slaughter them first!

SueEllen
22nd August 2014, 18:04
Are you being purposefully obtuse? I presume you were awake when Libya/Palestine/Iraq/Afghanistan occurred within the last 10 years?

If anything is going to send young men to violence it could well be the unimaginable violence inflicted on their kin in those countries by Apache gunships and depleted uranium.

Kin?

I think you are the one being purposefully obtuse.

The only thing they have in common with them is religion.

wonderboy
22nd August 2014, 18:16
Kin?

I think you are the one being purposefully obtuse.

The only thing they have in common with them is religion.

How does that detract from my argument? Whether people are linked by blood is irrelevant. If they feel kinship then, they are kin.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 18:42
How does that detract from my argument? Whether people are linked by blood is irrelevant. If they feel kinship then, they are kin.

i agree. they 'kin murdrous criminals

quackhandle
22nd August 2014, 18:53
IS are Shia Muslims? You what?

I must stop skim reading. From the Beeb: Pursuing an extreme form of Sunni Islam.

qh

CheeseSlice
22nd August 2014, 18:53
The only thing they have in common with them is religion.

To some, this is more significant than being from the same nation.
The Jewish may have a thing or two to say about that also.

EternalOptimist
22nd August 2014, 18:55
I wonder if sunni and shia will ever get back together

TestMangler
22nd August 2014, 19:17
I wonder if sunni and shia will ever get back together

with a release of "I bomb you babe'

Flashman
22nd August 2014, 23:42
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03015/230814-MATT-web_3015270a.jpg