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Young Western European Muslims in ISIS; what is it all about?

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    Young Western European Muslims in ISIS; what is it all about?

    They're going to Syria and Iraq from all over Europe; it isn't purely a British problem. How have they ended up hating us so much? In general we're not talking about new muslim immigrants or the first generation immigrants who came to Europe to work and build up a good life. We're talking about people who grew up here and went to school here. Now I can think of lots of things in western society that I think are wrong, but that doesn't mean you need to cut people's heads off or wage war against the west. Do they feel somehow rejected by western society? Do they experience some moral void or nihilist lack of culture here that they're trying to replace by turning to an extreme version of the religion of their parents of grandparents?

    I suspect that a few of them are just psychopaths looking for an excuse to live out their fantasites, but that can't explain all the cases. It can't simply be Islam otherwise there's be 1.6 billion people around the world with bombs strapped to them and machine guns in their hands; there aren't, so it can't be explained simply by pointing to Islam. I just dunno about this; I am simply trying to understand what has gone on in their minds and in their lives to make them want to go and lose their lives fighting for some completely crazy plan.
    And what exactly is wrong with an "ad hominem" argument? Dodgy Agent, 16-5-2014

    #2
    Propaganda. Simple as that.
    Knock first as I might be balancing my chakras.

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      #3
      They have forgotten that the reason the original came to Europe was to escape oppresion, violence and poverty and to start a new way of life.

      A way of life which provided free education and a safe place to raise your kids, a place where in many places you were welcomed as part of the comunity and the local folks did their best to help you integrate and also to try to understand your customs as a way of respect.

      What concerns me is that there will be a huge backlash from the public and many many innocents muslims will die because of the few muppets who never understood who are what they were and let themselves be lead by religious nutters.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by original PM View Post
        They have forgotten that the reason the original came to Europe was to escape oppresion, violence and poverty and to start a new way of life.

        A way of life which provided free education and a safe place to raise your kids, a place where in many places you were welcomed as part of the comunity and the local folks did their best to help you integrate and also to try to understand your customs as a way of respect.

        What concerns me is that there will be a huge backlash from the public and many many innocents muslims will die because of the few muppets who never understood who are what they were and let themselves be lead by religious nutters.
        Fair points. Maybe they've never really felt a part of European life and society, for some reason. If so then we need to know why, because we have a large muslim population that isn't going to disappear and somehow a feeling of alienation among the young needs to be tackled.

        Last bit; indeed, and that ugly backlash is already happening; the extreme right are able to exploit this to their advantage.
        And what exactly is wrong with an "ad hominem" argument? Dodgy Agent, 16-5-2014

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          #5
          I've often wondered if part of it is being jealous of the decadence and moral depravity which they claim to hate. They grow up here and see fellow teenagers experiencing romance, alcohol, and generally enjoying themselves, while they're forced to live a much stricter lifestyle. It would piss me off anyway, but obviously there's still a big jump from being a frustrated teenager to a terrorist.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bunk View Post
            I've often wondered if part of it is being jealous of the decadence and moral depravity which they claim to hate. They grow up here and see fellow teenagers experiencing romance, alcohol, and generally enjoying themselves, while they're forced to live a much stricter lifestyle. It would piss me off anyway, but obviously there's still a big jump from being a frustrated teenager to a terrorist.
            Well jealousy may be part of it, but on the other hand the 'depravity' in western life sometimes looks like nihilism and a complete lack of culture to me too; I think it was Norman Tebbit who suggested that the apparent lack of culture in the west leaves a hole that must be filled, and some young muslims are filling it with an extreme interpretation of Islam, obviously aided by some pretty evil preachers and terrorists with their own agenda; that's the propaganda bit that Suity referred to.
            Last edited by Mich the Tester; 22 August 2014, 10:05. Reason: disgraceful spelling mistake
            And what exactly is wrong with an "ad hominem" argument? Dodgy Agent, 16-5-2014

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Mich the Tester View Post
              Well jealousy may be part of it, but on the other hand the 'depravity' in western life sometimes looks like nihilism and a complete lack of culture to me too; I think it was Norman Tebbit who suggested that the apparent lack of culture in the west leaves a hole that must be filled, and some young muslims are filling it with an extreme interpretation of Islam, obviously aided by some pretty evil preachers and terrorists with their own agenda; that's the propaganda bit that Suity referred to.
              The thing is what is 'depravity' the ancient Romans and greeks loved a good orgy - is that depraved?

              Yes when you look at the west and you see the 'brits abroad' culture that is depraved - but it is a small minority going a bit mad abroad and making the locals a lot of money

              I think what Tebbit had in mind was some sort of outdated view of family life with father standing by the fireplace puffing regally on his pipe while mother sits quietly knitting and the two children play quietly in awe of fathers reverence - that never existed and there is no hole to fill.

              This is about a small number of people using the Islam religion as a guise to gain more power and money for themselves on the back of promises to naive kids who feel it is easier to pick up a gun then a pen.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by original PM View Post
                The thing is what is 'depravity' the ancient Romans and greeks loved a good orgy - is that depraved?

                Yes when you look at the west and you see the 'brits abroad' culture that is depraved - but it is a small minority going a bit mad abroad and making the locals a lot of money

                I think what Tebbit had in mind was some sort of outdated view of family life with father standing by the fireplace puffing regally on his pipe while mother sits quietly knitting and the two children play quietly in awe of fathers reverence - that never existed and there is no hole to fill.

                This is about a small number of people using the Islam religion as a guise to gain more power and money for themselves on the back of promises to naive kids who feel it is easier to pick up a gun then a pen.
                Well I don't really see the sexual freedom in the west as 'depravity'. What I DO see as depraved is a lack of cultural understanding or empathy, reality TV culture for example, where an individual who actually needs to be helped in private is laid bare to be ridiculed and laughed at, much like the freak shows of past centuries. I mean, what is the moral difference between a fairground displaying the elephant man to the public and the current fad for displaying the lives of poor, hapless individuals on TV as quasi-celebrities for the public to laugh at them?

                Now I'm not suggesting that Jeremy Kyle has caused this mess; that would be as ridiculous as Tebbit's outdated idea of the happy family, which never really existed, and which I don't think he really meant, but I can see how people would get the impression that European culture has become nihilist and a cultural void, even if it hasn't.

                As for that sexual freedom AND the freedom of expression, do young people growing up now know the historical context of our liberal attitudes? Do they understand anything of even very recent oppression in Europe and why we now avoid judging the sexual behaviour of others or the religious feelings of others? A few do, but I doubt it's most; yesterday I explained to a young guy at clientco why I'm off to eastern Germany and Poland on holiday, and that I want to (re)visit places where some of the most significant historical events of my life took place (as in the rise of Solidarity, the breaking of the Iron Curtain and the fall of the USSR). He didn't even know that there had been an 'Iron Curtain' never mind the significance of it, and he's got a higher vocational degree, so he obviously went to higher level secondary school. How can he hope to understand modern Europe and its culture without knowing these things?
                Last edited by Mich the Tester; 22 August 2014, 10:27.
                And what exactly is wrong with an "ad hominem" argument? Dodgy Agent, 16-5-2014

                Comment


                  #9
                  There are people who don't crave stability and safety for themselves and their loved ones. They crave adventure. I read an article about this recently, but can't remember where.
                  Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by NotAllThere View Post
                    There are people who don't crave stability and safety for themselves and their loved ones. They crave adventure. I read an article about this recently, but can't remember where.
                    Yep, but most deal with that by climbing up mountains or doing crazy tricks on bicycles.
                    And what exactly is wrong with an "ad hominem" argument? Dodgy Agent, 16-5-2014

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