PDA

View Full Version : Flood of IT immigrants from India



DodgyAgent
10th March 2015, 10:27
Employers who cannot recruit enough people with "digital skills" have been petitioning for the UK government to make it easier to import people from abroad. interestingly this is being partly driven by companies such as Infosys. I do not know how this can be justified considering there must be thousands of EU skilled workers living in depressed economies that would come and work in the UK. Clearly this has not been considered other than being dismissed by anecdotes and irrelevant statistics such as "only a small proportion" off EEA graduates do IT!

Digital tech skills added to Shortage Occupation Lists for UK and Scotland (http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240241225/Digital-tech-sector-skills-added-to-Shortage-Occupation-List-for-UK-and-Scotland)

It is a thinly veiled campaign to bring in more cheap skills

SueEllen
10th March 2015, 11:12
Interesting



Chris Hickey, CEO of Robert Walters UK, said that after several years of under-investment in training and entry-level recruitment, businesses are now playing catch-up.

SimonMac
10th March 2015, 11:18
It would be good to know what these "digital tech skills" actually are

vetran
10th March 2015, 11:21
It would be good to know what these "digital tech skills" actually are

being cheap!

SimonMac
10th March 2015, 11:21
being cheap!

Cheaper than Suity and PC :eek:

scooterscot
10th March 2015, 11:29
Where are you coming from DA? Surely this is good news for you? I doubt very much your company takes preferential European skilled workers over non-European workers.

DodgyAgent
10th March 2015, 11:47
Where are you coming from DA? Surely this is good news for you? I doubt very much your company takes preferential European skilled workers over non-European workers.

UK only me! keep the foreigners out with the exception of lap dancers from estonia :tongue

Batcher
10th March 2015, 11:49
It's a result of the rampaging British Empire of days gone by. If Great Britain hadn't raped their country they wouldn't have the rights to come over here.

HTH

original PM
10th March 2015, 12:15
It would be good to know what these "digital tech skills" actually are

The Partial review of the Shortage Occupation Lists for the UK and for Scotland report by the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) has recommended that the job titles product manager, data scientist, senior developer and cyber security specialist be added to the list.

Apparently there are some of them.

However I give you a guarantee that if you polled all the CEO's etc. who have had their say in this piece each one would give you a different expectation of each of these roles.

As others have said what they want is cheap labour - funnily enough I know someone whose job is to 'Outsource' and he gets so frustrated that the little brown men in India do not work every hour god sends for peanuts to make him look good.

He is a w4naker mind you.

scooterscot
10th March 2015, 12:27
UK only me! keep the foreigners out with the exception of lap dancers from estonia :tongue

:spel Romania

unixman
10th March 2015, 14:33
There is no shortage. Employers just want to beat down the price of labour by increasing the supply.

MicrosoftBob
10th March 2015, 14:37
In their eyes, there is a shortage of people willing to work for nothing

What do they want... much doings, plenty cheapness

When do they want it... yesterday

BrilloPad
10th March 2015, 15:29
Does this mean I should vote UKIP?

DodgyAgent
10th March 2015, 15:37
It's a result of the rampaging British Empire of days gone by. If Great Britain hadn't raped their country they wouldn't have the rights to come over here.

HTH

It would be interesting to know how you think those countries that had been "raped" by British colonialism would have fared had they not been colonised.

original PM
10th March 2015, 15:38
It would be interesting to know how you think those countries that had been "raped" by British colonialism would have fared had they not been colonised.

Indeed look at the railways in India - they love them they even sit on the roof they love them that much.

original PM
10th March 2015, 15:39
In their eyes, there is a shortage of people willing to work for nothing

What do they want... much doings, plenty cheapness

When do they want it... yesterday

Indeed - the execs at our place are never happy with our project process - because they cannot crash in projects with no real benefit's just to make them look good - but then expect the rest of the programme to be unaffected....

logic it would appear eludes them.

SueEllen
10th March 2015, 15:41
It would be interesting to know how you think those countries that had been "raped" by British colonialism would have fared had they not been colonised.

We will never know since all European countries were at it.

Also you presume that the countries wouldn't find a way of trading and self-governance when in fact it was trade that got a lot of them "raped" in the first place.

shaunbhoy
10th March 2015, 15:42
It's a result of the rampaging British Empire of days gone by. If Great Britain hadn't raped their country they wouldn't have the rights to come over here.

HTH

I can hear the guilt just dripping from your pores!!
Get over it.
:eyes

Batcher
10th March 2015, 15:54
It would be interesting to know how you think those countries that had been "raped" by British colonialism would have fared had they not been colonised.

I'm not really bothered about how they would have fared. The point is, if Great Britain hadn't colonised it then the population wouldn't have the general right to come over here without tougher controls on their visas.

Batcher
10th March 2015, 15:56
I can hear the guilt just dripping from your pores!!
Get over it.
:eyes

A Celtic fan sticking up for the empire?

I call a whinestrone sockie !! When do I get my fiver?

DodgyAgent
10th March 2015, 15:57
I'm not really bothered about how they would have fared. The point is, if Great Britain hadn't colonised it then the population wouldn't have the general right to come over here without tougher controls on their visas.

Good point the Scots should have been kept north of the wall :laugh

Batcher
10th March 2015, 16:03
Good point the Scots should have been kept north of the wall :laugh

At last you've got it !!

DodgyAgent
10th March 2015, 16:08
At last you've got it !!

Or in the spirit of equality the English should have been kept south of the wall :happy

tractor
10th March 2015, 17:01
And east of Offer's Dyke.

:D

:spel

Offa's

Poor standard of lizard education these days....tsk

Goatfell
10th March 2015, 19:48
And east of Offer's Dyke.

:D

East of Lowestoft shirley?

centurian
10th March 2015, 20:06
Does this mean I should vote UKIP?

UKIPs immigration policy is for "controlled" immigration - which means "skilled" workers still being allowed in - pretty sure I heard Farage specifically stated that he wanted those with IT skills from outside Europe to be encouraged to come here.

So if anything, it could be worse under UKIP

Remember the sense of disappointment at the Tories not abolishing IR35 - multiply that feeling by a hundred....

Zero Liability
10th March 2015, 20:15
FTFY

As I recall, until 1857 or so, the East India Company was a private enterprise (spit), dontchaknow.

The East India Company: The original corporate raiders | William Dalrymple | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders)

:eek: I've quoted the grauniad. :suicide:

I doubt that it was without government support, however, e.g. grants of exclusive privilege to trade. Nonetheless, I agree with the "get over it" crowd on this one.

Flashman
10th March 2015, 20:30
Does this mean I should vote UKIP?

Nah vote Conservative. :mad
BBC News - Come to UK, David Cameron urges Indian students ahead of visit (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21456363)


"The fact is today, as we stand, and this is going to be the case going forward - there is no limit on the number of students who can come from India to study at British universities, no limit at all.

"And what's more, after you have left a British university, if you can get a graduate-level job there is no limit to the amount of people who can stay and work or the time that they can stay at work."

David Cameron. Feb 2013

Flashman
10th March 2015, 20:33
UKIPs immigration policy is for "controlled" immigration - which means "skilled" workers still being allowed in - pretty sure I heard Farage specifically stated that he wanted those with IT skills from outside Europe to be encouraged to come here.

So if anything, it could be worse under UKIP

Remember the sense of disappointment at the Tories not abolishing IR35 - multiply that feeling by a hundred....


UKIP recognises the benefits of limited, controlled immigration.

UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

Somehow I rather doubt we'd be seeing mass immigration from India if UKIP had anything to do with it.

Zero Liability
10th March 2015, 20:36
Or from Eastern Europe, for that matter.

MicrosoftBob
10th March 2015, 20:41
And east of Offer's Dyke.

:D

Too late my family mounted the dyke centuries ago

centurian
10th March 2015, 21:13
Policies for People - UKIP (http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people)

Somehow I rather doubt we'd be seeing mass immigration from India if UKIP had anything to do with it.

Well this was written by Farage himself less than a week ago

Nigel Farage: Ukip's immigration policy is built on fairness - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11447132/Nigel-Farage-Ukips-immigration-policy-is-built-on-fairness.html)


Importantly, Ukip wants to ensure that highly skilled people from the Commonwealth – from India, Canada, New Zealand, and beyond – get a fair chance to get into Britain, unlike now, where we give precedence, via our open border with the European Union, to half a billion people from Europe and its former Communist countries.

As a total number, immigration would drastically fall if UKIP had their way. But not every industry would be affected in the same way. The IT industry (with a strong prevalence for India based immigration) would see no difference, or even higher immigration.

If you are voting UKIP because you think there will be few competition for IT jobs - forget it.

RoastedSlopes
11th March 2015, 08:57
Well this was written by Farage himself less than a week ago

Nigel Farage: Ukip's immigration policy is built on fairness - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11447132/Nigel-Farage-Ukips-immigration-policy-is-built-on-fairness.html)



As a total number, immigration would drastically fall if UKIP had their way. But not every industry would be affected in the same way. The IT industry (with a strong prevalence for India based immigration) would see no difference, or even higher immigration.

If you are voting UKIP because you think there will be few competition for IT jobs - forget it.

Silly man...

are you free PR for the tories? do you really believe what you have just said?

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 09:25
Interestingly there is more chance of cheap indians coming to the UK under UKIP than any other party

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 09:33
Interestingly there is more chance of cheap indians coming to the UK under UKIP than any other party

And not just Indians...Ukip are all for more integration with the Commonwealth and they in return are also happy with that although with the caveat that there are open borders. So instead of an influx of Romanians and Hungarians you would get an influx of Tongans and Bruneiens (sp) :tongue Interestingly enough the Ukip Commonwealth Spokesman, the mad as a hatter, Winston Mckenzie (who seems to have been in every political party) was sacked yesterday :laugh

BrilloPad
11th March 2015, 09:39
I see many female German Professors are refusing to accept Indian male students due to the countries "rape problem".

centurian
11th March 2015, 09:41
Silly man...

are you free PR for the tories? do you really believe what you have just said?

No - I am reading what the leader of UKIP has said - those are his own words - very recent - and in an article which was written by him - almost certainly proofread and approved by him, so they are not taken out of context.

And he has said it before - quite a few times. I have heard him saying it in an interview.

Sorry if this shatters the illusion for IT-based UKIP-leaning voters, but UKIP will not lift a finger in respect of imported IT labour - if anything, it will be the opposite.

Wake up and smell the coffee...

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 09:51
And not just Indians...Ukip are all for more integration with the Commonwealth and they in return are also happy with that although with the caveat that there are open borders. So instead of an influx of Romanians and Hungarians you would get an influx of Tongans and Bruneiens (sp) :tongue Interestingly enough the Ukip Commonwealth Spokesman, the mad as a hatter, Winston Mckenzie (who seems to have been in every political party) was sacked yesterday :laugh

I hardly think there will be many "skills shortage" Tongans or Bruneiens. It will be Indians Pakistanis and Nigerians.

The choice is either Slavic/eastern european skills or Indian, pakistani and African

RoastedSlopes
11th March 2015, 09:52
So the hundreds of thousands of EU immigration are all low skilled workers ?

Your argument is that managing our borders so that only controlled immigration is allowed, irrespective of where they are from (so as to make it fairer) will mean less work for skilled IT contractors?

Laughable.

I have worked alongside Tech Mahindra people for years (first time was approx. 11 years ago) where the Indian workforce would arrive en masse on a Sunday with their paper MCSE's on low pay. This didn't stop me contracting solid for nearly 16 years now.

Look at numbers 600000 immigrants under Tories as apposed to circa 50000 under UKIP. the laws of common sense dictate which is more favourable to home grown workers.

Yes the 50000 will be better skilled and in demand (IT roles maybe) percentage wise than current profiles but this will compliment rather than replace our workforce.

if someone REALLY wants low cost IT resource then you offshore it..

vetran
11th March 2015, 09:55
I hardly think there will be many "skills shortage" Tongans or Bruneiens. It will be Indians Pakistanis and Nigerians.

The choice is either Slavic/eastern european skills or Indian, pakistani and African

the Indian / Pakistani IT industry grew up to service western needs. Why wouldn't Tonga see the opportunity?

tractor
11th March 2015, 10:30
the Indian / Pakistani IT industry grew up to service western needs. Why wouldn't Tonga see the opportunity?

Tonga pop: 103k
Hyderabad metro pop: 9.5m

HTH :)

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 11:07
I hardly think there will be many "skills shortage" Tongans or Bruneiens. It will be Indians Pakistanis and Nigerians.

The choice is either Slavic/eastern european skills or Indian, pakistani and African

No but low skilled menial jobs, i.e. fruit picking....

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 11:08
the Indian / Pakistani IT industry grew up to service western needs. Why wouldn't Tonga see the opportunity?

Tongans are better off coming here as rugby players :happy

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 11:10
the Indian / Pakistani IT industry grew up to service western needs. Why wouldn't Tonga see the opportunity?


Tonga pop: 103k
Hyderabad metro pop: 9.5m

HTH :)

Or any of these countries: Member states of the Commonwealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations#Curre nt_members)

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 11:16
Or any of these countries: Member states of the Commonwealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations#Curre nt_members)

The topic is about "high end skills" and the flooding of labour markets. I hardly think Tonga will flood any market let alone high skills ones.

d000hg
11th March 2015, 11:21
Cheap Indian code monkeys != highly skilled IT workers. High skilled surely means the top few percentiles relative to the industry.

If you're bothered on this specific issue - and support UKIP, then write/tweet your local UKIP MP and/or Farage your concerns about mass off-shoring, and on-shoring of IT workers at cheaper rates.

I don't like UKIP but it's daft not to put your concerns to them.

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 11:27
The topic is about "high end skills" and the flooding of labour markets. I hardly think Tonga will flood any market let alone high skills ones.

Okay how about Afrikaaners, Nigerians (who seem to have IT skills which would probably get around gullible politicians), Australians, Pakistanis, Indians, Singaporeans, etc. There are plenty of countries in the Commonwealth with large educated populations

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 11:29
Cheap Indian code monkeys != highly skilled IT workers. High skilled surely means the top few percentiles relative to the industry.

If you're bothered on this specific issue - and support UKIP, then write/tweet your local UKIP MP and/or Farage your concerns about mass off-shoring, and on-shoring of IT workers at cheaper rates.

I don't like UKIP but it's daft not to put your concerns to them.

There's about as much chance of people doing that as Ukip listening. People like to moan but not get off their fat lazy arses and do something about it, most people who earn a decent living wage are complacent....

d000hg
11th March 2015, 11:32
Then you've no right to whinge. I would've thought UKIP are more likely to listen since they're small, not entrenched fixtures, and (perhaps) actually believe in their policies.

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 11:35
Then you've no right to whinge. I would've thought UKIP are more likely to listen since they're small, not entrenched fixtures, and (perhaps) actually believe in their policies.

Sadly no-one, apart from Farage, really knows what their policies are. All they currently have are soundbites and they change from day to day....

tractor
11th March 2015, 12:59
Sadly no-one, apart from Farage, really knows what their policies are. All they currently have are soundbites and they change from day to day....

People tend to forget that UKIP are very immature as a party unlike the other mainstreamers who have the benefit of over a hundred years of policy making spin doctors, professional campaigners and entrenchment in their core values. The only time anything changes for those are each time an election comes along where they all gravitate to the middle ground for 6 months to win more votes then they revert to type and conveniently forget most of their promises.

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 13:01
Okay how about Afrikaaners, Nigerians (who seem to have IT skills which would probably get around gullible politicians), Australians, Pakistanis, Indians, Singaporeans, etc. There are plenty of countries in the Commonwealth with large educated populations

Which was what I was saying you idiot!

OwlHoot
11th March 2015, 13:08
Sadly no-one, apart from Farage, really knows what their policies are. All they currently have are soundbites and they change from day to day....

If they change, perhaps it's largely in response to changes in Tory and Labour policy in response to UKIP policy announcements :laugh

MyUserName
11th March 2015, 14:11
I see many female German Professors are refusing to accept Indian male students due to the countries "rape problem".

Where have you seen that?

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 14:14
Where have you seen that?

looking over the shoulder :happy

original PM
11th March 2015, 14:19
I see many female German Professors are refusing to accept Indian male students due to the countries "rape problem".

Interesting that - bet if you tried it in Britain you would be sacked for being racist.... and if they did rape you well it's their culture and we need to respect it....

also apparently being raped as woman in Nigerian is something you can expect to happen on a regular basis e.g. it is not if it is when and how often.

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 14:26
Interesting that - bet if you tried it in Britain you would be sacked for being racist....

What, you mean being racist can cause you to be accused of being racist?

original PM
11th March 2015, 14:46
What, you mean being racist can cause you to be accused of being racist?

Given that some of the lawyers around the various different Pakistani/indian rape cases have come out and said

1) Any woman out after 8.30 deserves to be raped as she is dishonouring her family.
2) I would set my daughter on fire and burn her alive if she was thought to be dishonouring her family

I would say that if that is what your supposed intellectual cream say then there is probably a point to make that certain cultures see rape as perfectly acceptable punishment for women who do not show the expected oppressed social norm and as such any woman should be wary of people from that culture.

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 15:14
Given that some of the lawyers around the various different Pakistani/indian rape cases have come out and said

1) Any woman out after 8.30 deserves to be raped as she is dishonouring her family.
2) I would set my daughter on fire and burn her alive if she was thought to be dishonouring her family

I would say that if that is what your supposed intellectual cream say then there is probably a point to make that certain cultures see rape as perfectly acceptable punishment for women who do not show the expected oppressed social norm and as such any woman should be wary of people from that culture.

If your argument is "some people from this culture / race have this attitude, therefore all people from this culture / race have this attitude" then that is pretty much the definition of racism.

FatLazyContractor
11th March 2015, 15:18
Given that some of the lawyers around the various different Pakistani/indian rape cases have come out and said

1) Any woman out after 8.30 deserves to be raped as she is dishonouring her family.
2) I would set my daughter on fire and burn her alive if she was thought to be dishonouring her family

I would say that if that is what your supposed intellectual cream say then there is probably a point to make that certain cultures see rape as perfectly acceptable punishment for women who do not show the expected oppressed social norm and as such any woman should be wary of people from that culture.

Your argument sounds a bit like:

Sir Jimmy Saville is a pedophile. He is white. So all white people are pedophiles.

GlenW
11th March 2015, 15:22
Your argument sounds a bit like:

Sir Jimmy Saville is a paedophile. He is white. So all white people are paedophiles.
:spel

vetran
11th March 2015, 15:23
If your argument is "some people from this culture / race have this attitude, therefore all people from this culture / race have this attitude" then that is pretty much the definition of racism.

as these lawyers were the elite and responsible for upholding the law I think we can describe it as institutionalised sexism!

original PM
11th March 2015, 15:23
If your argument is "some people from this culture / race have this attitude, therefore all people from this culture / race have this attitude" then that is pretty much the definition of racism.


Your argument sounds a bit like:

Sir Jimmy Saville is a pedophile. He is white. So all white people are pedophiles.

Whilst I see your points nowhere during Operation Yew Tree have any of the lawyers involved said that this was an acceptable practice for a white person and in fact every single person is in complete agreement that Jimmy was an evil pervert.

Which as I say is not quite the same as the prosecuting lawyers (note) saying in effect this is an acceptable practice as the woman deserved it.

I know not all people of a certain culture/race can all be grouped under 1 banner.

But then I think you all know that.

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 15:25
Given that some councillors around the various different English flooding cases have come out and said

1) the floods that hit the UK in 2013 were God's punishment for the introduction of gay marriage
2) homosexuality is a "spiritual disease" and should be healed

I would say that if that is what your supposed intellectual cream say then there is probably a point to make that certain cultures see flooding as perfectly acceptable punishment for homosexuality, but that it can be cured, and as such any person should be wary of people from that culture.



That's fun, to take examples of what one or two people say, pretend that it's representative of the views expressed by a larger group, then extrapolate that even further to imply it's representative of a culture as a whole.

SpontaneousOrder
11th March 2015, 15:26
I wonder if OPM is alluding to the fact that while racism is irrational (and therefore seen as being immoral), a certain level of predjudice is often a very sensible thing.

Whether it is in this case or not is another matter - but predjudice isn't always racist.

FatLazyContractor
11th March 2015, 15:26
Whilst I see your points nowhere during Operation Yew Tree have any of the lawyers involved said that this was an acceptable practice for a white person and in fact every single person is in complete agreement that Jimmy was an evil pervert.

Which as I say is not quite the same as the prosecuting lawyers (note) saying in effect this is an acceptable practice as the woman deserved it.

I know not all people of a certain culture/race can all be grouped under 1 banner.

But then I think you all know that.

Ok, can you please explain the disaster called David Cameron?

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 15:30
Whilst I see your points nowhere during Operation Yew Tree have any of the lawyers involved said that this was an acceptable practice for a white person and in fact every single person is in complete agreement that Jimmy was an evil pervert.

Which as I say is not quite the same as the prosecuting lawyers (note) saying in effect this is an acceptable practice as the woman deserved it.

I know not all people of a certain culture/race can all be grouped under 1 banner.

But then I think you all know that.


But you think that we should be wary of those brown people. After all, it's only a matter of time before they rape us.

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 15:39
You really are a feckwhit aren't you?


Interesting that - bet if you tried it in Britain you would be sacked for being racist.... and if they did rape you well it's their culture and we need to respect it....

also apparently being raped as woman in Nigerian is something you can expect to happen on a regular basis e.g. it is not if it is when and how often.


Short answer, no.

Slightly longer answer, if you think it should be allowed to discriminate against all males of a particular nationality because some other people of that nationality are rapists, and some educated professionals of that nationality believe it is a correct punishment then I'll call that racism.

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 15:39
The topic is about "high end skills" and the flooding of labour markets. I hardly think Tonga will flood any market let alone high skills ones.


Which was what I was saying you idiot!

No you didn't

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 15:41
Where have you seen that?

It was only one: German professor rebuked for rejecting intern over 'India's rape problem' | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/09/german-professor-rebuked-for-discrimination-over-indias-problem)

FatLazyContractor
11th March 2015, 15:47
Rape in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Germany) :rolleyes:

darmstadt
11th March 2015, 15:54
By nation: Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com (http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate)

vetran
11th March 2015, 15:57
By nation: Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com (http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate)

not much cop if victims are unlikely to report due to the shame & blame in their culture.

SpontaneousOrder
11th March 2015, 16:07
be careful with the rape stats. For example, the debunked 1 in 5 stats used and parroted by POTUS for the US regarding sexual assault include 'attempted forced kissing' - i.e. going in for the kiss without asking for permission first.

I wouldn't be sure that they can be compared like-for-like, just like different definitions of 'violent crime'.

SpontaneousOrder
11th March 2015, 16:11
Which reminds me of this junk spouted all over twitter by those infuriatingly dense ThoughtWorkers...

https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture-29ea1546e91d

I hope you guys don't do work drinkies - you're pressuring non-drinkers to drink and risk getting raped.

tractor
11th March 2015, 16:27
Given that some councillors around the various different English flooding cases have come out and said

1) the floods that hit the UK in 2013 were God's punishment for the introduction of gay marriage
2) homosexuality is a "spiritual disease" and should be healed

I would say that if that is what your supposed intellectual cream say then there is probably a point to make that certain cultures see flooding as perfectly acceptable punishment for homosexuality, but that it can be cured, and as such any person should be wary of people from that culture.



That's fun, to take examples of what one or two people say, pretend that it's representative of the views expressed by a larger group, then extrapolate that even further to imply it's representative of a culture as a whole.

You may as well quote the loony party and expect us to believe they are representative of all of us as quote a couple of local nutters!

Local councillors are notorious for having fools in their ranks. We have one who is in charge of the local trasnport policy. He has switched off the traffic lights at the key pedestrianised crossing (only buses and taxis use it) in the centre of a busy town. Blind people complained and he said 'Well they should look where they are going!" Concidentally, he is gay. I don't think all gays are feckwits but many councillors are. If you transpose that example into your argument, how would I be homophobic?

Honour killings are predominantly if not exclusively amongst the mid east and far east communities wherever they live now. There are cases of it happening after rape here as well as most countries in the world and often the families make the boys do it so that they are immune from punishment. There is a section of both those communities who would use any angle to further their oppression of women. There are even cases of honour killings for homosexuals.

None of this began in western societies.

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 16:35
Honour killings are predominantly if not exclusively amongst the mid east and far east communities wherever they live now. There are cases of it happening after rape here as well as most countries in the world and often the families make the boys do it so that they are immune from punishment. There is a section of both those communities who would use any angle to further their oppression of women. There are even cases of honour killings for homosexuals.

None of this began in western societies.

Sure. Does that mean that it should be OK to refuse service to all males from those countries, in case they do it to you?

Although that is not what happened in this case, as darmstadt clarified, that is the argument I was replying to.

tractor
11th March 2015, 16:50
Sure. Does that mean that it should be OK to refuse service to all males from those countries, in case they do it to you?

Although that is not what happened in this case, as darmstadt clarified, that is the argument I was replying to.

Perhaps the teachers are making a stand against the governments that do nothing about the problem, esp where some of the lawyers promote it. I only saw the reference, I didn't see any justification.

Are you saying sanctions agains NK, Iran and Russia are wrong and illegal and racist?

Ticktock
11th March 2015, 17:05
Perhaps the teachers are making a stand against the governments that do nothing about the problem, esp where some of the lawyers promote it. I only saw the reference, I didn't see any justification.

Are you saying sanctions agains NK, Iran and Russia are wrong and illegal and racist?

If it were a protest against the governments then why only ban men, not all citizens of that country?

Re the sanctions, no, those are government to government actions, and are regularly challenged for legality.
I'm saying that if shops in London put up signs saying "No Russians allowed", hotels starting turning away Iranians or restaurants said "Oh, you're from North Korea? We don't sell dog, get out" then that would be racist.

RoastedSlopes
11th March 2015, 17:24
Interestingly I believe India is still benefiting from our overseas aid contribution.

Sounds like a reasonable plan to give money to these 'developing' nations whilst laying off our armed forces

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 17:29
If it were a protest against the governments then why only ban men, not all citizens of that country?

Re the sanctions, no, those are government to government actions, and are regularly challenged for legality.
I'm saying that if shops in London put up signs saying "No Russians allowed", hotels starting turning away Iranians or restaurants said "Oh, you're from North Korea? We don't sell dog, get out" then that would be racist.


It is not a binary principle or choice though I suspect the Germans are making a point to Indian people in general. If you walk along a dimly lit pavement and one side of the road coming in the other direction is a group of hoodies and on the other is a little old lady, given the choice your defence mechanism (some would call prejudice) would make you walk on the side of the road with the old lady coming in the other direction. the point here is the thought of teaching a group of Indian men on their own is (apparently) unnerving the woman, It is not about applying a principle across all groups of people.

DodgyAgent
11th March 2015, 17:30
Perhaps they should send immigrants on this course before allowing them into the country:

Children as young as 11 to be given lessons about rape - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11457899/Children-as-young-as-11-to-be-given-lessons-about-rape.html)

vetran
11th March 2015, 17:55
If it were a protest against the governments then why only ban men, not all citizens of that country?

Re the sanctions, no, those are government to government actions, and are regularly challenged for legality.
I'm saying that if shops in London put up signs saying "No Russians allowed", hotels starting turning away Iranians or restaurants said "Oh, you're from North Korea? We don't sell dog, get out" then that would be racist.


whilst many would like to believe evil men are the root of all evil ad nascent rapists , societies views on chastity and morals are frequently heavily influenced by the females. FGM is something mothers and other female relatives drive. I imagine the fate of a rape victim is also mainly decided by the females.

Until we make such behavior disgusting to the vast majority of the population the reaction won't change.

Artists boycotting Sun City was a strong statement against apartheid.

tractor
11th March 2015, 18:48
whilst many would like to believe evil men are the root of all evil ad nascent rapists , societies views on chastity and morals are frequently heavily influenced by the females. FGM is something mothers and other female relatives drive. I imagine the fate of a rape victim is also mainly decided by the females.

Until we make such behavior disgusting to the vast majority of the population the reaction won't change.

Artists boycotting Sun City was a strong statement against apartheid.

And a there are a lot of witchdoctors who believe the only way to free a 'possessed child' is to torture and murder them.

I suspect the female views you are talking about is a combination of suppressed education, ignorance and brainwashing.