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d000hg
15th April 2015, 07:48
UKIP's manifesto will include a promise to hold an in/out referendum on the EU. So in the fictional universe where they get into power, they could end up governing a nation who vote to remain in the EU anyway. In which case, all of their "fully costed" policies will totally fall apart since they rely on EU savings, and their very raison d'etre is lost.

What a joke. Surely voting UKIP is a vote to leave the EU and their policy should be "we WILL leave the EU".

You might as well vote Tory, that way you still get a referendum but they actually try to fix the relationship first, and have experience running a government.

A no-brainer really. UKIP have massively diluted their position and the best way for EU-skeptics t avoid a Labour-EU love-in is to vote Tory.

FatLazyContractor
15th April 2015, 08:22
Very fair point.

Without EU we will be begging on the streets of Dublin and Greece.

OwlHoot
15th April 2015, 08:27
You might as well vote Tory, that way you still get a referendum ...

What infantile naivete. Do you really think Cameron will go ahead with a referendum if he thinks he can possibly avoid or postpone it?

Also, it isn't just about a referendum. UKIP will re-negotiate the terms of our membership whether we remain in the EU or not.

FatLazyContractor
15th April 2015, 08:29
Also, it isn't just about a referendum. UKIP will re-negotiate the terms of our membership whether we remain in the EU or not.

Exactly how? Modus operandi?

d000hg
15th April 2015, 08:35
What infantile naivete. Do you really think Cameron will go ahead with a referendum if he thinks he can possibly avoid or postpone it?Of course he will. I'm certainly not going to make my decision based on you pretty little feelings what he will do. A referendum is something they're been promising for a long time now, it's about the most central part of their manifesto and if they reneged they'd get crushed.


Also, it isn't just about a referendum. UKIP will re-negotiate the terms of our membership whether we remain in the EU or not.No, that's the Tories. One of Farage's main arguments is that you CAN'T renegotiate the terms of EU membership, especially on free movement of EU nationals. Every time Cameron talks about "renegotiate, then hold a referendum on the new deal" Farage replies "there will be no deal".

UKIP supporters - cloud cuckoo land, the lot of you. Again - a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour.

vetran
15th April 2015, 08:39
You mean a political party that is suggesting the best way forward is to leave an organisation we were never asked whether we wanted to join.
Is going to ask the electorate if that is what they truly want and you see that as a bad thing?

ZARDOZ
15th April 2015, 08:39
David Cameron ruled ruled out a coalition with the Lib Dems just prior to forming one. The man is a liar and will not deliver a referendum.

Euler
15th April 2015, 08:43
Do you really think Cameron will go ahead with a referendum if he thinks he can possibly avoid or postpone it?
.

Plenty in his party who will insist on it.




Also, it isn't just about a referendum. UKIP will re-negotiate the terms of our membership whether we remain in the EU or not.

Yes we've seen examples of their negotiating skills viz. the EU.
They make the Greek economics minister look like a subtle Machiavelli.
:laugh

SlipTheJab
15th April 2015, 08:44
You mean a political party that is suggesting the best way forward is to leave an organisation we were never asked whether we wanted to join.
Is going to ask the electorate if that is what they truly want and you see that as a bad thing?

Has to happen, right to freedom of movement with respect to working in the EU, yes, the right to rock up anywhere and start claiming all the benefits you can lay your hands on (including Child Benefit for your family that you've left behind) etc, no, that needs to change.

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 08:48
We will NOT get a referendum

d000hg
15th April 2015, 09:07
You mean a political party that is suggesting the best way forward is to leave an organisation we were never asked whether we wanted to join.
Is going to ask the electorate if that is what they truly want and you see that as a bad thing?Well they promise to scrap HS2 as well. Are they going to hold a referendum on that?

The whole point of UKIP is leaving the EU. If UKIP get in the people have ALREADY VOTED to leave the EU - a referendum is a waste of time and money. And as already mentioned, what possible use is a UKIP government if a referendum votes "we should stay".

I rather seem to remember we were promised a referendum on Scotland. Oh look, we had one.

It's a pointless discussion because we all know realistically UKIP won't get in to power. In real terms, what use are a handful of UKIP MPs, and a larger number of seats which go LAbour when UKIP split the Tory vote? If you're a UKIP supporter, would you rather see a Tory or Labour PM... those are your only two choices and voting in a way which leads to the 'wrong' one depending how you answer that question is simply cutting off your nose to spite your face... like Labour voters switching to Green.

d000hg
15th April 2015, 09:08
We will NOT get a referendum

Of course we will. It's a key differentiator between Tory and Labour policies.

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 09:09
of course we won't

DodgyAgent
15th April 2015, 09:15
UKIP's manifesto will include a promise to hold an in/out referendum on the EU. So in the fictional universe where they get into power, they could end up governing a nation who vote to remain in the EU anyway. In which case, all of their "fully costed" policies will totally fall apart since they rely on EU savings, and their very raison d'etre is lost.

What a joke. Surely voting UKIP is a vote to leave the EU and their policy should be "we WILL leave the EU".

You might as well vote Tory, that way you still get a referendum but they actually try to fix the relationship first, and have experience running a government.

A no-brainer really. UKIP have massively diluted their position and the best way for EU-skeptics t avoid a Labour-EU love-in is to vote Tory.

It is not all about winning control there are only two parties in the frame for that. The influence of minor parties affects the policies and behaviour of the major parties. You really do not have the intellectual capacity to understand anything beyond black and white do you?

d000hg
15th April 2015, 09:15
Good counter-argument.

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 09:17
As good as yours

Euler
15th April 2015, 09:19
We will NOT get a referendum

Why not?

d000hg
15th April 2015, 09:20
It is not all about winning control there are only two parties in the frame for that. The influence of minor parties affects the policies and behaviour of the major parties. You really do not have the intellectual capacity to understand anything beyond black and white do you?This is kind of my point though, amusingly you couldn't understand it which is ironic considering your sanctimonious tone.

UKIP's presence has effectively forced the Tories to promise a referendum, in which they have made it clear they will urge people to stay in the EU.

But UKIP saying "we'll hold a referendum" not "we WILL leave the EU" means they are not differentiating from the Tories to anywhere near the same degree. You are promised a referendum whether UKIP or Conservative get in.

Except that, voting UKIP reduces the chances of the Conservatives getting in by diluting the Right vote. Therefore, voting UKIP reduces the chance of a referendum being held.

UKIP would have done better towards their aims if they made a deal to get their supporters to vote Tory, in exchange for a referendum.

As a Tory I'd rather have thought you'd be arguing against UKIP...

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 09:25
Why not?
Because they might lose.

vetran
15th April 2015, 09:25
David Cameron ruled ruled out a coalition with the Lib Dems just prior to forming one. The man is a liar and will not deliver a referendum.

unfortunately this rings true

d000hg
15th April 2015, 09:32
unfortunately this rings true

This is rather more important. Look what SNP have done to Labour following the "vow betrayal"... that would happen to the Tories if they didn't hold a referendum, it would be suicide for the next GE.

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 09:34
would be suicide for the next GE
The Euro project is much more important than their "death"

Euler
15th April 2015, 09:40
Because they might lose.

Who is they?
There are plenty of Tories who would like to "lose" a referendum.
If Dave doesn't do it they will rebel.

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 09:44
And then what? The can is kicked down the road a bit longer and the ratchet tightens a bit more.

DodgyAgent
15th April 2015, 09:44
Who is they?
There are plenty of Tories who would like to "lose" a referendum.
If Dave doesn't do it they will rebel.

There is no reason to suppose that they will not have a referendum unless they are part of a coalition the junior partners of which will block it.

TheFaQQer
15th April 2015, 09:45
Why not?

Because the coalition / confidence and supply / vote-by-vote partner might not vote the right way to get the bill through parliament, and Cameron isn't going to get a majority.

Edit - I feel dirty now for posting the same thing as DA :sick :sick :sick

Euler
15th April 2015, 09:55
There is no reason to suppose that they will not have a referendum unless they are part of a coalition the junior partners of which will block it.


Because the coalition / confidence and supply / vote-by-vote partner might not vote the right way to get the bill through parliament, and Cameron isn't going to get a majority.

Edit - I feel dirty now for posting the same thing as DA :sick :sick :sick

So the answer to the kippers is vote Tory, give them a majority and let them have a referendum.
If they have a majority and don't have a referendum never vote for them ever again - although I don't believe that will happen since there is a small but powerful Tory clique who will force it.
As a Tory who believes in staying in Europe, I also believe in democracy and that the people should decide.
I wouldn't vote for them again if they didn't have one if they could.

d000hg
15th April 2015, 09:56
I'm not sure if other parties have said an EU referendum is a deal-breaker for cosying up to the Tories? I know most parties are pro-EU but then all major parties were pro-union and they had that referendum knowing they were allowed to argue their case. Even Dave wants to remain in the EU so agreeing to a referendum might not seem that big a concession for other pro-EU leaders if they're sure the referendum will go the 'right' way.

MicrosoftBob
15th April 2015, 10:47
The Tories promises a referendum, but like any of Daves cast iron guarantees they're about as useful as Milliband in a bacon sarnie eating competition

Neither Labour or the Tories have really fought our corner in Europe, you have to go back to see someone who isn't spineless

UKIP aren't the answer, but until the wonks in power change protest is the only power we have

Euler
15th April 2015, 10:50
UKIP aren't the answer, but until the wonks in power change protest is the only power we have

Protest will give you a Labour government with no refrendum.
Now I don't trust politicians either, but I don't think Dave will be able to get away with not having one, if he has a majority.
He's had to promise it, not because of UKIP, but because of the strong clique in the Tory party who are against the EU.
They won't stand for his ( or any successor) renegeing on it.

d000hg
15th April 2015, 10:53
It's amusing people don't trust Dave to hold a referendum as promised, but do trust Nigel when he says their plans are costed and that's he's not a massive racist.

Avalonia
15th April 2015, 10:57
I believe you are a massive troll

d000hg
15th April 2015, 11:01
I believe you are a massive troll

An anti-UKIP troll? Making controversial statements that most people agree with? Are you new to the internet?

Batcher
15th April 2015, 11:03
Dave isn't very good on his promises for referendii. This from before the last election:

David Cameron admits Lisbon treaty referendum campaign is over | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/04/david-cameron-referendum-campaign-over)

Confirming a complete U-turn on his "cast iron guarantee" that a Tory government would hold a public vote on the controversial treaty, the party chief said the Czech Republic's decision to ratify the agreement meant he could "no more hold a referendum on the treaty than ... a referendum on the sun rising in the morning."

Even if he holds one this time, he won't be able to drag all 4 countries out of the EU if only 1 votes for it. Otherwise he will break up the UK and that would be a disaster. Oh, wait... :)

Euler
15th April 2015, 11:06
It's amusing people don't trust Dave to hold a referendum as promised, but do trust Nigel when he says their plans are costed and that's he's not a massive racist.

But you can trust Nige, dontcha know.
He's like us, he has a pint down the pub.

d000hg
15th April 2015, 11:19
Even if he holds one this time, he won't be able to drag all 4 countries out of the EU if only 1 votes for it. Otherwise he will break up the UK and that would be a disaster. Oh, wait... :)That's not how it works, as much as the leaders of the bit-part members of the unions clamour about "separate referenda", although it would give us a way to get rid of you rather than wait for you to grow the stones to do it yourselves.


But you can trust Nige, dontcha know.
He's like us, he has a pint down the pub.So does your builder, and you wouldn't trust him ;)

Batcher
15th April 2015, 11:24
That's not how it works, as much as the leaders of the bit-part members of the unions clamour about "separate referenda", although it would give us a way to get rid of you rather than wait for you to grow the stones to do it yourselves.


We were told we were an equal partner in a family of nations so our view is equal to the others. Call Me Dave doesn't really want to leave the EU so will use this to stay in the EU in the event of England voting to come out.

Why do you think of us as bit-part members of the union?

Zero Liability
15th April 2015, 11:31
It's amusing people don't trust Dave to hold a referendum as promised, but do trust Nigel when he says their plans are costed and that's he's not a massive racist.

Ah, the 'racist' bludgeon. Opportunistic maybe, but this accusation is probably the hollowest of them all.

UKIP will probably start pushing for a shift to a PR system for the next GE. I don't imagine them offering exit with no referendum as it is not their angle.

d000hg
15th April 2015, 12:09
We were told we were an equal partner in a family of nations so our view is equal to the others. Call Me Dave doesn't really want to leave the EU so will use this to stay in the EU in the event of England voting to come out.I don't think he gets the choice. We have a union-wide referendum. This isn't something which is devolved, it's as simple as that.


Why do you think of us as bit-part members of the union?Just for light relief.

NotAllThere
15th April 2015, 12:13
We were told we were an equal partner in a family of nations...And I'm sure mummy told you you were a good little soldier. :ohwell

Batcher
15th April 2015, 12:15
And I'm sure mummy told you you were a good little soldier. :ohwell

The only difference is my Mummy told the truth :laugh

darmstadt
15th April 2015, 12:22
Ah, the 'racist' bludgeon. Opportunistic maybe, but this accusation is probably the hollowest of them all.

UKIP will probably start pushing for a shift to a PR system for the next GE. I don't imagine them offering exit with no referendum as it is not their angle.

He's not racist, just doesn't like foreigners much, a bit xenophobic perhaps and a committed Tory at heart

Zero Liability
15th April 2015, 17:05
I doubt he has a personal dislike of them. This is very much policy driven by a voter concern they picked up on.

MicrosoftBob
15th April 2015, 17:24
He's not racist, just doesn't like foreigners much, a bit xenophobic perhaps and a committed Tory at heart

I'm with Ripley burn all the face huggers, down with xenomorphs!