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webberg
24th April 2015, 14:32
Mod edit: Joining instructions. (http://www.wttconsulting.co.uk/#!big-group/ci09)

This started elsewhere but should be on its own.

I have two takers so far.

To clarify this BIG GROUP is ONE GROUP across ALL schemes.

It does not impact action individuals may wish to take on their own or via other groups.

Let's indulge in some speculation.

A group is formed.

It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations.

It knows that HMRC is not prepared to be sensible in settlement and therefore the only strategy is to defend a number of cases at Tribunal in the hope that a less than 100% victory for HMRC will force them to the table.

The group also defends to extent possible, APN claims and other spurious attempts from the agency to extract funds. This is on the basis that civil disobedience and tying up HMRC resource is an effective strategy.

That may require 5 years.

We'll allow 4 full time staff (admin/website/etc) and a panel of experts. Accommodation, telephone etc. Say £200,000 a year tops. So £1m over 5 years.

"Experts" budget perhaps £1.5m over that period. That's pretty much one average (in terms of charge out rate) tax specialist full time for 5 years.

So £2.5m over 5 years. Let's say £3m.

If the cost per individual was £10 a month for 60 months, how many are needed?

£3m/60/£10 = 5,000 people.

How many contractors impacted?

I don't know. If 100,000, then we're looking at 5% membership.

To get to that value requires some form of advertising campaign and that in turn requires some seed funding.

There are "litigation funders" out there. They work by advancing legal costs in return for a cut of a "win".

They might be interested. More likely something like this forum could run a pre funding group and effectively put up initial funds.

I reckon perhaps £25,000 to run the ads and initial letter/email/website stuff.

How many people here?

500? That's £50 each.

So the deal is:

Put up £50. Put up some of your undoubted IT expertise. Hire a temporary project director (on a contract). Ask for volunteers for a steering group (I'd be interested). Elect/appoint a steering committee.

Spend the initial money over 6 months and see what the response is and re-evaluate.

If this is a "go", membership is £10 a month for 60 months (perhaps less/more). Alternatively pay £500 day 1 and then nothing until month 61.

Make sure to get anybody who is willing from NTRT. Make sure to include some PR.

Anybody?

linuxcat
24th April 2015, 14:50
I'm in.

dangerouswhensober
24th April 2015, 14:57
Everybody knows that IT contractors are well-off - personally, I use £50 notes to light my cigarettes, and £20 notes in place of toilet paper - I'll just have one less cigarette today - a small price to pay to initiate significant long-term group action.

My only caveat is that such a group action should not impinge on other actions. (For example, I'll be joining the Saleos when my first APN arrives, just to slow HMRC down - other potential members might also be part of various groups already).

Now we only need another 499 ...

squirrel
24th April 2015, 15:07
Do you think HMRC would allow the £10 a month to be included in my list of outgoings when I'm working out my APN TTP with them ;-)

cojak
24th April 2015, 15:09
I've made this a sticky.

jcb78
24th April 2015, 15:24
Definitely.

webberg
24th April 2015, 15:32
I've made this a sticky.

Thank you.

flamel
24th April 2015, 15:36
Summary of ranting.
We all know all of that it's - unfair, retrospective effect, bankruptcy, no justice, we all earn £262,000, no right of appeal, HMRC dragging things out for years, only taking cases to court that they are going to win, ineptitude, SO being a sham... I could go on.

Venting spleen here will only make the "minions of Sauron" chuckle - remember they're not accountable for their actions and never have been. Given that money (or lack of) is the biggest political issue at the moment, they rule the roost as they collect vast sums of money for the Gov't. If they can get more money MPs will cheer - it helps them get re-elected.

MPs were bamboozled into passing this pernicious law and I dare say the orcs at Mordor who thought of it got a bonus/pay rise/promotion. MPs didn't have a clue what they were signing up to. No MP is going to sign up for scrapping this...and HMRC smell blood - ours in fact.

So we join in the JR.

The scheme providers who are still around press HMRC for closure notices to get heard in court.

It is possible that the delay brought on by the JR will buy enough time to go to court.

Unless the FTT is particularly astute (unlikely as I understand it) many schemes, however watertight, may lose at this stage. Which means UTT. If HMRC think they are in any danger of losing, they will use delay tactics - in some cases for years. (see HMRC to appeal against high court award to Barclay brothers of £1.2bn | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/hmrc-appeal-high-court-decision-award-barclay-brothers-billion) as an example of how long HMRC can drag it out for if they think they're going to lose.)

That won't do anyone any good if you're relying on getting your money back - unless you are Comte de St Germain and can wait that long!

Even if we win, there will be no compensation if you're wiped out or made bankrupt. At the moment, no recompense either for APN penalties for a debt you never had.

The only possible solution is to get Parliament / HMRC to calculate that they would be better off with some sort of compromise (a percentage of what HMRC think we owe them) without recourse to litigation.

Nasty and unfair, yes. But pragmatic.

flamel
24th April 2015, 15:39
I'm in too, of course. I'd like to do more but it depends on my workload, wives, driving kids about, moving house etc etc.

regron
24th April 2015, 15:57
Definitely in. The more sticks we have to attack this whole debacle with, the better !!

TykeMerc
24th April 2015, 16:02
Sounds like a wise step to take, it will do no harm at all to have an organised approach. Hopefully as a group you can reach an equitable solution.

webberg
24th April 2015, 16:09
OK, I've done a very basic spreadsheet.

(Excel is so simple even tax types can use it).

Based on my projections and assumptions which are:

Space starting at £700 a month and increasing every 12 months.
4 full time people - head admin at £60k, 1 x £45k, 2 x £30k increasing at 3% pa and 10% bonus at end
Professional fees at £1.7m to include weekly supervision and advice on strategy - attending steering group meetings etc plus advocate for cases (I've spread these evenly from month 3 onwards but in reality much more lumpy)
Monthly overhead at 5% of income, reducing to 2.5%.

Hoping we may know some people who have some cloud space and some expertise in IT who might do a job for cash in hand.

If that is about right.

We would need 500 people paying £60 to seed the group.

That is £50 starter plus £10 monthly fee.

The starter fee to be repaid from surplus funds around 12 months later.

Then we build - aggressively.

If you're not on board in 6 months, the boat has sailed.

Monthly cost is £10 for 60 months.

In the event that resolution is quickly the balance unpaid is accelerated. In other words if we're done and dusted at month 18, you have to pay (60-18)*£10 because the QC's etc still need paying.

At £10 a month we need 4,650 members.
At £12 a month we need 3,875 members.
At £15 a month we need 3,100 members.
At £20 a month we need 2,330 members.

We need a steering group. I suggest no more than 0.25% of total membership otherwise top heavy.

The numbers appear to work although there are some squeaky bum months but trying to predict when fees might hit is a guessing game and anything beyond 6 months is increasingly inaccurate.

In terms of operation it would be a steering group of members plus an expert panel (willing to act for contingent or monthly fees). After an initial flurry of meetings perhaps once a month. Admin officer (actually more a coordinator role running the office and website etc) to report regularly and via website updates.

All cash contributions to be held in name of steering committee (not experts or fee earners) and released only on suitable mandate.

Any surplus funds to be returned.

Objectives to be clearly established and pursued.

Confidentiality CRITICAL.

NEXT STEPS

Develop the brief and ideas for objectives
Expressions of interest.
Private forum - offers to set up please?
(self) Nominations for steering committee - probably not permanent


DECLARATION

I have been pushing the idea of a cross provider group for a long time.
I do see commercial advantage in it for my new firm but I'd be happy to take part in a beauty parade of potential members of the expert panel and take my chances.
I'd be happy to model objectives and articles etc on those I have for other tax groups but I reserve the right to charge for my time to get this established but would agree a cap.

flamel
24th April 2015, 16:10
Hopefully as a group you can reach an equitable solution.

That's the plan - we should remind HMRC of one of the maxims of equity "delay defeats equity"

webberg
24th April 2015, 16:12
Do you think HMRC would allow the £10 a month to be included in my list of outgoings when I'm working out my APN TTP with them ;-)

Absolutely.

This is a compliant, DOTAS registered and notified scheme.:suicide:

DotasScandal
24th April 2015, 16:41
Hoping we may know some people who have some cloud space and some expertise in IT who might do a job for cash in hand.


Cash in hand? I hope David Gauke isn't reading :rolleyes:

MercladUK
24th April 2015, 17:23
I am in. But can I clarify.

Will this action group include Post 2011 schemes as well?

StrengthInNumbers
24th April 2015, 19:23
1) lets setup the sheet on google docs and allow others to comment and see

2) I can do the website. Host it in cloud - azure. Will do my work for free - only charge the hosting cost. (If anyone else wants to do it welcome)

3) do we need to form an association or something?

4) my biggest concern is that to defend the scheme, we will need details and documentation on how the schemes were implemented. Don't know how we can get that with promoters gone (for me luckily promoter is around and doing it)

5) don't we need a more concrete action plan and what the benefits would be? What the 4 staffs would do ( I would have thought a project co ordinator - prince certified - like my wife would be enough for office work instead of 4 - might be wrong without a more detailed plan)

Sky Rocket
24th April 2015, 20:13
I'm in...

Scruff
24th April 2015, 20:40
Where is the .xlsx? I could do with the technical calc? Je suis Charlie

LandRover
24th April 2015, 21:09
Count me in.

HMRC need to understand that we can make it a costly exercise and time consuming for them too:D

DotasScandal
24th April 2015, 21:24
Needless to say, I'm in too.

convict
24th April 2015, 22:22
Sounds like a plan. +1 here

ads1980
24th April 2015, 22:23
count me in too!

webberg
25th April 2015, 07:19
Thanks for the responses.

As I said I think we need a minimum number to get this started.

The initial fees from that number will be used in a recruiting drive because to work this group needs numbers. there are some obvious places to go to place adverts but beyond that I will need to understand the best places. For example, I suspect most of you pick up contracts via an agency - would they carry an ad? Most of you work with other contractors - would your current firm carry an ad? Etc.

I will draft a heads of terms of a constitution.

I will circulate this either via email or a private forum (thanks for the offers).

For the immediate future however I need to bring some order. I'm reluctant to put my work email here but if you PM me, I'll supply it. You can then email me with some basic information (real name etc) and I can compile a list of interested parties.

For now, I will do this for free.

Please be aware however that I am building a new business and have certain priorities and obligations. If there comes a time when I have no time or would have time if I was paid, then I will advise all in advance. Hopefully by then we should have a constitution and rules and be able to consider appointments as previously suggested so it won't be a problem.

Momentum is key. Activity is key. Keep pushing this.

(After saying that my football team is the lunchtime kick off today so I'll be missing from around 10;30am - sorry).

ads1980
25th April 2015, 07:46
Thanks for the responses.

As I said I think we need a minimum number to get this started.

The initial fees from that number will be used in a recruiting drive because to work this group needs numbers. there are some obvious places to go to place adverts but beyond that I will need to understand the best places. For example, I suspect most of you pick up contracts via an agency - would they carry an ad? Most of you work with other contractors - would your current firm carry an ad? Etc.

I will draft a heads of terms of a constitution.

I will circulate this either via email or a private forum (thanks for the offers).

For the immediate future however I need to bring some order. I'm reluctant to put my work email here but if you PM me, I'll supply it. You can then email me with some basic information (real name etc) and I can compile a list of interested parties.

For now, I will do this for free.

Please be aware however that I am building a new business and have certain priorities and obligations. If there comes a time when I have no time or would have time if I was paid, then I will advise all in advance. Hopefully by then we should have a constitution and rules and be able to consider appointments as previously suggested so it won't be a problem.

Momentum is key. Activity is key. Keep pushing this.

(After saying that my football team is the lunchtime kick off today so I'll be missing from around 10;30am - sorry).

Thanks very much Webberg! Good luck with the football! Do you need anything else other than our real names? Maybe some kind of template? Name, address etc?

MercladUK
25th April 2015, 08:02
One hopes Webberg you are a Spurs fan and a Saint

DonkeyRhubarb
25th April 2015, 12:01
Take a leaf out of NTRT's book. We're taking the fight to HMRC, and we're making headway.

I really hope BIG GROUP gets off the ground.

The hard part will be rallying contractors to join a united front. Which is a bit like herding cats.

Message to all you cats - be more dog!!!

jbryce
25th April 2015, 13:17
Send me your bank account details - I'll send £50.
I'm about to join another group - but see this as a compliment.

StrengthInNumbers
25th April 2015, 13:26
Real names and a vetting process to ensure HMRC spies cannot get in.

costo
25th April 2015, 18:36
I'm in - and its a brilliant idea,


Call me a sceptic but webberg - whats in it for you? it doesn't sound like your caught up in this? I'm totally ok with someone taking a margin on this as long as its clear that is the case? In fact it probably would help having someone impartial at the healm.

Iliketax
25th April 2015, 19:48
I have no skin in this, but you might want to think about how the results for one group change the dynamics for the others.

To keep the numbers simple. Let's say you get an equal number of people for two separate schemes. They all pay monthly and plan to pay £200,000 per year over four years. Let's say one of these is to do with EBTs. Just as the case goes to the FTT after two years and cost 50% of the expected total (say £400,000 of costs out of £800,000 expected for both schemes). So the first two years' money effectively spent on the EBT scheme. As luck would have it, at the same time the Supreme Court hears the appeal of the Court of Sessions on Rangers and says Rangers loses. The FTT says, sorry, but you lose too because the Supreme Court is boss. All the EBT people then leave the group and stop paying.

So the remaining 50% then have to fund 100% of the second case.

So those who are in the EBT group pay £200,000 of their £400,000 costs and those in the second group have to pay £600,000 to get their case heard. That doesn't seem fair.

Now in real life there may be synergies, not all the money will be spent on the first case, you are planning four separate schemes, etc. But unless you do something to address it, it still goes back to those that remain effectively pay more than those that leave early.

StrengthInNumbers
25th April 2015, 19:59
It is all a game of chance and people will have to take the risk. What if Supreme Court says ranger lose but only because of side letters?

But from the other side I don't really know how the group is going to be able to busy up HMRC resources and how the details of scheme will be found out. Paper and money trail existed between set of companies and trusts and courts will like to see that. Without promoter and access to trustees how will the group get that info?

MercladUK
25th April 2015, 22:40
Is the idea being proposed covering post 2011 schemes?

dangerouswhensober
25th April 2015, 23:02
Firstly - I apologise in advance for the length of this post, but I think a few things need to be said.

It's very encouraging to see that 15 people have pledged, on the first day, to pay £50 to start the ball rolling.

Just for clarity, I make those people to be (in no particular order):

linuxcat regron LandRover
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980
flamel Scruff jbryce
costo

But it's also a bit surprising that there were over 1,200 views of this thread, yet only these few have pledged to go forward.

At the moment, this project is at the 'Proof Of Concept' stage. If the Big Group doesn't achieve a certain critical mass within a short time then it will not be able to go forward. (I'd say around 100 members within a month, but that's just my opinion). So any discussion of 'what happens if half the group drop out when a case is lost' is, IMO, a little premature. There will be no cases to drop out of if there aren't enough subscribers. Of course strategic issues should be discussed, but only the appropriate time.

In my experience, there are always many reasons not to do something (e.g. this bad thing might happen, or that terrible thing might happen, or we might make this mistake, etc) but the good reasons to do a thing will always remain until the thing is done. So I would suggest that we ignore what 'might' go wrong, focus on what we are immediate objectives, pledge the £50 and see what happens.

Also, everyone should bear in mind that the pledge of £50 is, right now, exactly that - a promise to pay this amount at a date in the future (possibly soon) if certain conditions are met. It's not a promise to stuff a crisp £50 note in an envelope and mail it first thing on Monday morning. Personally, I would favour that nobody should send any money until the pledged membership has reached a certain level (IMO 100), just to ensure that the project will go to the next stage and the money won't have to be returned (which would be inefficient & tedious administration).

To all those people who have viewed this thread and (so far) decided not to participate, I'd suggest that you read through to the end of this email, then review the other mails on the thread (especially the proposals from Webberg), and then think for a day or two. If you decide definitely not to join, please let us know why - that info will be useful for us, as it will help us identify people who may and may not want to join in the future.

[BYW - I'd just like to repeat that it's a mutually-agreed principle that this group's future actions should not impinge on any other legal actions we may each be planning to take].

Now in relation to how the current Settlement Offer might affect decisions to join ...

(A) To those people who have already settled:
I wish you well - I'd guess you are sleeping a little easier - and, to be honest, I'm slightly envious. You must be aware that you have no chance of getting your money back, and you will have already written that money off. But - if you would like to have the chance of a little revenge on the Goverment and HMRC for their appalling bullying, then keep monitoring these boards - the opportunity to join will (I would guess) stay open for a good while. (But please also read to the end of this email).

(B) To those people who are intending to settle (and have the means):
Once again, I wish you well. We already know that the fight will be long and hard, and this will not suit some people - everyone is of different temperament. But you should also bear in mind that what you think is a 'settlement' is not necessarily final in the eyes of HMRC - they may come at you again with some further assessment for those same periods which you think are settled (e.g. for NI or Inheritance Tax) - especially if they are allowed to change tax rules again. Also, the comments in (A) above apply as well - you are being bullied into settlement, and, in the long run, there is only one successful way to react to bullying.

(C) To those people who are intending to settle (but don't have the means):
If you are currently negotiating or intending to negotiate a 'time-to-pay' arrangement with HMRC, then, once again, I wish you well. Even if I could, I personally would not want to spend the next few years living in penury when I know I have done nothing wrong - it's rather like serving a jail sentence when you know you are innocent. I'd rather fight to change the questionable system that sentenced me. Again, it's a personal choice - but I sincerely suggest you review the posts in this thread and consider joining this group - HMRC are going to want a lot more than £50 from you.

(D) To those people who are not intending to settle (because they don't have the means, or for any other reason):
(BTW - the 'straw poll' on these boards over Xmas indicates that this group comprises fully two-thirds of the people who will receive APNs - but it was a small sample). I freely admit I'm in this group - I don't have the means - and a 'time-to-pay' agreement for me would have to be a LOT longer than two years even if I found such an agreement acceptable. It's been said many times in many other places that, on APNs, the Government and HMRC have made a bad strategic mistake by backing people into a corner where they have no option but to fight. Well, if thousands of people all have no option but to fight, then those thousands will pretty soon realise that we will achieve more if we fight together (with apologies to Maximus Decimus Meridius) rather than individually (which is what the Government & HMRC would much prefer). So to all those people in the same position as me, I say 'why not pledge £50 now and see what happens over the next few weeks ?' - at the very worst, at present you could lose £50 - and you might gain a lot more than you lose - given the determination and expertise which has been expressed so far.

There are two final reasons why (I believe) as many people as possible should join this long-term group - and they are both related to the actions of our political leaders in devising and initiating this persecution. The first is this:

Both of the main political parties have made a very big noise about 'cracking down on tax avoidence and evasion'. They are effectively demonising individuals (and companies) who have done nothing more than obeyed the law as it stood at that time - and they have (deliberately) whipped up public sentiment against those individuals and institutions for their own purposes - in many cases using nebulous and emotive phrases and questionable facts and numbers. Well, 155 years ago the philosopher and economist John Stuart Mill wrote the following words as part of his essay 'On Liberty':

"There needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them."

Sound familiar ? The political parties are at present encouraging (even promoting) the "tyranny of the prevailing opinion" for their own purposes - and these are supposed to be the leaders of our country !!! If leading thinkers recognised a long time ago that this behaviour was bad for freedom and democracy, then I think it's a very sad comment on the general quality of our politicians that they even countenance this behaviour today. This group could, if big enough, make these views known - please think about that ...

The second reason is stated below (as always) ...

thecolour
26th April 2015, 08:30
If we're going to do this, then why not use one of the pledging platforms like gofundme or kickstarter to get this off the ground. Let's face it, the only thing which can effectively fight this is cold hard cash.

z4thras
26th April 2015, 08:40
count me in

DonkeyRhubarb
26th April 2015, 11:47
Let's face it, the only thing which can effectively fight this is cold hard cash.

Yes and lots of it.

Fortunately there are lots of you so it only takes a small contribution from everyone to amass a substantial fighting fund.

The future is in your hands.

webberg
26th April 2015, 12:07
Yes and lots of it.

Fortunately there are lots of you so it only takes a small contribution from everyone to amass a substantial fighting fund.

The future is in your hands.

Thanks for the activity here.

I'll be back here in a couple of hours and will (unfortunately for you) try to deal with some of the questions and hence monopolise the thread for a while.

Great to see activity though and DR says - being in control of your own destiny is better than relying on others, no matter how helpful they've been to date.

jbryce
26th April 2015, 12:48
I have no skin in this, but you might want to think about how the results for one group change the dynamics for the others.

To keep the numbers simple. Let's say you get an equal number of people for two separate schemes. They all pay monthly and plan to pay £200,000 per year over four years. Let's say one of these is to do with EBTs. Just as the case goes to the FTT after two years and cost 50% of the expected total (say £400,000 of costs out of £800,000 expected for both schemes). So the first two years' money effectively spent on the EBT scheme. As luck would have it, at the same time the Supreme Court hears the appeal of the Court of Sessions on Rangers and says Rangers loses. The FTT says, sorry, but you lose too because the Supreme Court is boss. All the EBT people then leave the group and stop paying.

So the remaining 50% then have to fund 100% of the second case.

So those who are in the EBT group pay £200,000 of their £400,000 costs and those in the second group have to pay £600,000 to get their case heard. That doesn't seem fair.

Now in real life there may be synergies, not all the money will be spent on the first case, you are planning four separate schemes, etc. But unless you do something to address it, it still goes back to those that remain effectively pay more than those that leave early.

If HMRC win at the Court of Session then they will instantly try and state that it applies to other EBT cases, if they lose - they'll dismiss the relevance.
Arguably, neither Boyle or Rangers give a definitive steer on EBTs.

Personally I'm happy to contribute a small amount and, if it gets spent on someone else's case, then so be it. If we had done this a while back, HMRC may have been tempted to make the settlement offer a little less cr@p.

webberg
26th April 2015, 13:13
I'm in - and its a brilliant idea,


Call me a sceptic but webberg - whats in it for you? it doesn't sound like your caught up in this? I'm totally ok with someone taking a margin on this as long as its clear that is the case? In fact it probably would help having someone impartial at the healm.

I have not hidden the fact that I run a commercial business that specialises in tax dispute resolution.

What's in for me is an opportunity to earn some fees doing just that.

I will put up my plan for doing this (and fees) to the eventual steering group and take my chances with any other firms invited to tender.

My business runs groups of people fighting tax cases. As such I have various written constitutions and other material that may help.

You have touched upon the value an independent person brings - somebody paid to run an operation should be able to d a better job than a voluntary group fitting it in around the day job.

webberg
26th April 2015, 13:16
1) lets setup the sheet on google docs and allow others to comment and see

2) I can do the website. Host it in cloud - azure. Will do my work for free - only charge the hosting cost. (If anyone else wants to do it welcome)

3) do we need to form an association or something?

4) my biggest concern is that to defend the scheme, we will need details and documentation on how the schemes were implemented. Don't know how we can get that with promoters gone (for me luckily promoter is around and doing it)

5) don't we need a more concrete action plan and what the benefits would be? What the 4 staffs would do ( I would have thought a project co ordinator - prince certified - like my wife would be enough for office work instead of 4 - might be wrong without a more detailed plan)

2. Thank you.
3. Yes - probably an informal group bound by a constitution
4. Agreed. Most plans have a common theme and can be backsolved. Enough people coming together and sharing data should give the data required. If not, we'll ask HMRC - I'm serious - as they can be obliged to help.
5. yes. See later.

webberg
26th April 2015, 13:18
Thanks very much Webberg! Good luck with the football! Do you need anything else other than our real names? Maybe some kind of template? Name, address etc?

I'll circulate the joining criteria in due course.

jrock
26th April 2015, 13:18
i think it's great that joint action is starting to develop.

My question is should I join this group if my promoter is already supporting me via a judicial review?

Can representation on my APN appeal be brought forward by 2 parties?

webberg
26th April 2015, 13:23
One hopes Webberg you are a Spurs fan and a Saint

I'm a Saints fan, man and boy.

I think we're safe from relegation this year and that's always what we look for first.

A draw with Spurs felt like a loss though and the run in is not good. Three teams facing relegation and scraping for their lives and Man City away last game. Looks like Europe might have to wait another before being graced with our presence.

carling
26th April 2015, 13:29
i think it's great that joint action is starting to develop.

My question is should I join this group if my promoter is already supporting me via a judicial review?

Can representation on my APN appeal be brought forward by 2 parties?

I'm in the same boat here. Our promoter is already commited (and on the way) to FTT, plus already organising JR activities.
How would this fit in with what is being proposed here ? If this takes off, surely working in conjunction with the fighing promoters would help the cause.
I'd be interested in chipping in the amounts mentioned either way, just to help out people who's promoter have let them down and of course causing maximum aggro for Hector.

webberg
26th April 2015, 13:33
I have no skin in this, but you might want to think about how the results for one group change the dynamics for the others.

To keep the numbers simple. Let's say you get an equal number of people for two separate schemes. They all pay monthly and plan to pay £200,000 per year over four years. Let's say one of these is to do with EBTs. Just as the case goes to the FTT after two years and cost 50% of the expected total (say £400,000 of costs out of £800,000 expected for both schemes). So the first two years' money effectively spent on the EBT scheme. As luck would have it, at the same time the Supreme Court hears the appeal of the Court of Sessions on Rangers and says Rangers loses. The FTT says, sorry, but you lose too because the Supreme Court is boss. All the EBT people then leave the group and stop paying.

So the remaining 50% then have to fund 100% of the second case.

So those who are in the EBT group pay £200,000 of their £400,000 costs and those in the second group have to pay £600,000 to get their case heard. That doesn't seem fair.

Now in real life there may be synergies, not all the money will be spent on the first case, you are planning four separate schemes, etc. But unless you do something to address it, it still goes back to those that remain effectively pay more than those that leave early.

Valid points.

The plan I have in mind is to operate at a higher level and seek common threads and elements in a number of schemes. There are perhaps 3 or 4 scheme types operating that I'm aware of:

1. Engagement contracts via an offshore intermediary with funds being moved back to the UK via a trust.
2. The use of loans from a trust (on or offshore)
3. Dual contracts
4. Share/option based schemes

The latter two tend to be non DOTAS.

Common themes are:

Movement of funds
Use of funds (option purchase)
Agency/intermediary rules
ITEPA rules

The need is to find and develop and argue that a combination of facts and law leads to a different result than that HMRC is pushing.

That may require contacting and borrowing from existing groups, contributing a fresh perspective to those groups and sharing the results achieved.

I'll try to capture all this.

webberg
26th April 2015, 15:38
i think it's great that joint action is starting to develop.

My question is should I join this group if my promoter is already supporting me via a judicial review?

Can representation on my APN appeal be brought forward by 2 parties?

The Judicial review is against the APN. It has absolutely NO bearing on the settlement or litigation for the agreement of the final position.

The group here will NOT be in place in time to take action on an APN.

The group here is also NOT seeking JR challenges on APN, unless an argument of general application is developed.

LEC
26th April 2015, 15:49
Count me in

jrock
26th April 2015, 16:53
The Judicial review is against the APN. It has absolutely NO bearing on the settlement or litigation for the agreement of the final position.

The group here will NOT be in place in time to take action on an APN.

The group here is also NOT seeking JR challenges on APN, unless an argument of general application is developed.

Thanks for clarifying.

What is therefore required to join this group at this stage? A commitment to pay £50 (a reasonable initial fee I must add). Will there be additional costs going forward?

Look forward to seeing the required criteria, and put my name forward.

DotasScandal
26th April 2015, 17:22
What is therefore required to join this group at this stage? A commitment to pay £50 (a reasonable initial fee I must add). Will there be additional costs going forward?

Please refer to the first post of the thread, it's quite clearly explained.
The 50 quid is seed money to kick start the group. Future costs will depend on how many will be willing to join.

oldman
26th April 2015, 17:54
I would like to join

famousfive
26th April 2015, 21:28
+1 for the cause :spank:

DarnEBTs
27th April 2015, 04:08
+1 as well:smile

neil99
27th April 2015, 05:59
+1 as well:smile

++1 from me.

Axeman
27th April 2015, 07:25
I'm in

a Man of Constant Sorrow
27th April 2015, 08:47
I'm in

webberg
27th April 2015, 08:49
A call to those who have offered their services for web hosting etc AND to those who would like a say in the constitution.

To get this rolling I think a meeting is needed.

I'm happy to host and chair this (until a better decision is made) but I'd like to get this together soon.

I work in Central London and can get to most places within a tube ride of there.

Today I'm in Canary Wharf (talking to a contractor), so that location is also fine.

names/locations please.

Computer
27th April 2015, 09:04
Webberg: If you guys are meeting today can you send some communication?

porrker
27th April 2015, 09:09
Could I join please

davieloco
27th April 2015, 10:15
Count me in as well

Emmybeckmann
27th April 2015, 11:05
I'm in.

FTTM
27th April 2015, 11:06
I'm in also
As previously said I think a page on a funding website would be a good start

lutkeg
27th April 2015, 11:47
This sounds like a good plan - but how long will this take ?
Do we have time on our side?

ads1980
27th April 2015, 11:57
A call to those who have offered their services for web hosting etc AND to those who would like a say in the constitution.

To get this rolling I think a meeting is needed.

I'm happy to host and chair this (until a better decision is made) but I'd like to get this together soon.

I work in Central London and can get to most places within a tube ride of there.

Today I'm in Canary Wharf (talking to a contractor), so that location is also fine.

names/locations please.

I'm based in the north of England so not possible for me. I'm more than happy to join conference calls/web sessions if any of my input is required for anything. I'm no good at websites or hosting but if I am needed for anything else then I'm more than happy for any inputs.

StrengthInNumbers
27th April 2015, 11:58
Joining in on a week day in London will be difficult. Friday late evening - I can do

lastManStanding
27th April 2015, 12:03
sold in a heart beat - you can count on my support

MercladUK
27th April 2015, 12:27
A call to those who have offered their services for web hosting etc AND to those who would like a say in the constitution.

To get this rolling I think a meeting is needed.

I'm happy to host and chair this (until a better decision is made) but I'd like to get this together soon.

I work in Central London and can get to most places within a tube ride of there.

Today I'm in Canary Wharf (talking to a contractor), so that location is also fine.

names/locations please.

I am in central London Westminster area so can make most days.

MercladUK
27th April 2015, 13:17
Can David Gauke get any more corrupt?

Andrew Neil demolishes “political stunt” Tory letter | LabourList (http://labourlist.org/2015/04/andrew-neil-demolishes-political-stunt-tory-letter/)

Reddevil
27th April 2015, 13:59
Count me in.

bentley0632
27th April 2015, 14:13
Count me in

Gaskie
27th April 2015, 14:17
In.

fetabob
27th April 2015, 14:53
I'm in. Well done folks.

Samatra
27th April 2015, 16:03
I'm in as well.

fielder
27th April 2015, 16:18
I am also in

convict
27th April 2015, 16:54
Count me in too

Penguin
27th April 2015, 20:22
Count me in too please :)

Milo
27th April 2015, 20:28
I am in.

dangerouswhensober
27th April 2015, 22:11
Just for clarity (and until a spread-sheet is available) ...

The group head-count of pledges at the end of Day 3 is 40 - these are (again in no particular order):

linuxcat regron LandRover thecolour
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal z4thras
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict LEC
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980 oldman
flamel Scruff jbryce famousfive
costo fetabob neil99 fielder
DarnEBTs Samatra Axeman convict
lastManStanding bentley0632 a Man of Constant Penguin
Reddevil Gaskie Computer Milo
porrker davieloco Emmybeckmann FTTM

With another three possibles:

carling jrock lutkeg

(Please shout if any of the above is incorrect)

I still believe that the 'proof-of-concept' target should be around 100 - but of course that's just one opinion.

To spread the word, could I suggest that over the next couple of days we all look around our contractor colleagues at our various workplaces and have a quiet word with them about this thread.

klmedlock
28th April 2015, 06:14
count me in

cliffordthedog
28th April 2015, 06:40
+ me

ads1980
28th April 2015, 06:59
Just for clarity (and until a spread-sheet is available) ...

The group head-count of pledges at the end of Day 3 is 40 - these are (again in no particular order):

linuxcat regron LandRover thecolour
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal z4thras
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict LEC
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980 oldman
flamel Scruff jbryce famousfive
costo fetabob neil99 fielder
DarnEBTs Samatra Axeman convict
lastManStanding bentley0632 a Man of Constant Penguin
Reddevil Gaskie Computer Milo
porrker davieloco Emmybeckmann FTTM

With another three possibles:

carling jrock lutkeg

(Please shout if any of the above is incorrect)

I still believe that the 'proof-of-concept' target should be around 100 - but of course that's just one opinion.

To spread the word, could I suggest that over the next couple of days we all look around our contractor colleagues at our various workplaces and have a quiet word with them about this thread.

Should I set up a new Twitter account and see if we can spread this any further on social media?

DotasScandal
28th April 2015, 08:03
Should I set up a new Twitter account and see if we can spread this any further on social media?

A twitter presence is a good idea, but it takes time to build up a following. And it's a bit useless if you don't have a website to point to. So it may be too early.
I think for now everyone on here should do their best to (quickly) spread the work around their contractor circles the old fashioned way.

At the same time, I'm all for individual, decentralized initiatives, so do what you think is best.

ads1980
28th April 2015, 09:27
A twitter presence is a good idea, but it takes time to build up a following. And it's a bit useless if you don't have a website to point to. So it may be too early.
I think for now everyone on here should do their best to (quickly) spread the work around their contractor circles the old fashioned way.

At the same time, I'm all for individual, decentralized initiatives, so do what you think is best.

It does you are correct. But after doing a quick search on Twitter about APNs I can contact those people and point them back to this forum hoping they may join the group.

DonkeyRhubarb
28th April 2015, 10:55
Worth considering?

staropramen42
28th April 2015, 11:12
Please add me to the pledge count

FairnesstoAll
28th April 2015, 11:58
Please add me to the pledge count
And me too

webberg
28th April 2015, 19:48
Heads of terms on terms of reference later this week.

invite to inaugural meeting later this week

Please keep coming back here.

DotasScandal
28th April 2015, 20:42
Worth considering?

Never used it, but hear it has worked well for some people. So, indeed, why not use all the tools at our disposal.
But for this we first need to formulate a clear concept / objective.

DotasScandal
28th April 2015, 20:44
Invite to inaugural meeting later this week
Please keep coming back here.

Thanks for driving this, Webberg. A conf call would be neat for those not in London, if at all possible!

webberg
29th April 2015, 13:05
Worth considering?

Yes it is and I'm looking at a way to make it qualify for SEIS or EIS relief (30%).

MercladUK
29th April 2015, 13:23
I don't know how cheeky this may be, but could this be setup as a not for profit charity?

Therefore any donations would incur tax relief:grin

webberg
29th April 2015, 13:30
Thanks for driving this, Webberg. A conf call would be neat for those not in London, if at all possible!

Yes I think it would be sensible or possibly a video conf?

I'm feeling my way towards an objective and a constitution and would welcome input to the following. In particular the lexicon I'm using is biased towards my field of work and it's important that we all understand what we mean by certain words.

Factors driving the objectives

Objectives

The objective is to find common ground and counter arguments to HMRC accusations that arrangements used by contractors create tax advantages that can be recovered via an APN or in litigation.

Respecting the efforts of action groups on individual provider schemes it is hoped that sharing information, pooling resources and knowledge and creating a supportive environment will lead to the identification of new and alternative arguments and have the financial power to pursue these to a conclusion.

All analysis and technical argument developed will belong to the members and subject to certain safeguards will be shared with individual provider scheme members.

The group will look for answers to questions raised on ALL contractor schemes so far known to be under active investigation by HMRC and those expected to become so over the next few years.

Schemes to be reviewed

Contractor schemes appear to fall into three types which can be determined by time and certain characteristics. The following is a brief summary and not a detailed analysis (which will be prepared and shared with paying members rather than hand HMRC a free ticket).

Schemes up to early 2008 relied in many cases on placing funds into the care of offshore parties before repatriation. The terms of the various double tax agreements would be used to exempt any further taxes being deducted. These schemes have been attacked with retrospective legislation and are already subject to a successful group of users. It is not anticipated that BIG GROUP will be able to add value to the current position. However close ties and cooperation are anticipated.

Other schemes from perhaps 2001 to 2011 relied upon the use of an intermediary trust or other vehicle via which funds would be routed. These "contractor loan" schemes are subject to an HMRC settlement offer at present. These schemes were largely disclosed under the DOTAS rules and many are subject to APN at present. The BIG GROUP is unlikely at this stage to be able to offer individual help on APN matters although later issues of notices may be able to be stalled.

Schemes from 2011 relied upon a number of means to reduce the effective rate of tax. These were generally not disclosed and HMRC will no doubt be discussing this with scheme users in due course. Non disclosure means information on such schemes is relatively thin on the ground. Members of such schemes may be required to contribute fees on a different profile in order to recognise the initial information collation and research required.

Where possible cooperation with existing and past providers will be sought, even if this is at a cost.

AS I SAID - A WORKING DOCUMENT AND OBSERVATIONS/COMMENTS/EDIT/ADDITIONS/ETC WELCOME

zonam
29th April 2015, 13:38
Count me in.

webberg
29th April 2015, 13:52
I don't know how cheeky this may be, but could this be setup as a not for profit charity?

Therefore any donations would incur tax relief:grin

No because a charity has to have objects for the common good and be in particular areas such as education, health, promotion of knowledge etc.

Might be able to get EIS relief if I can find the right scheme.

Workinghard
29th April 2015, 14:07
Count me in too, thank you!

ads1980
29th April 2015, 15:15
The following is a brief summary and not a detailed analysis (which will be prepared and shared with paying members rather than hand HMRC a free ticket)

Just on the point of HMRC and a free ticket.... I don't know to what levels they would go to but would they for instance pay to join the big group on the basis they can glean more information out of it? Call my cynical but I just don't trust them at all. How can we properly vet the members to prevent this or do you not think it will be likely?

DotasScandal
29th April 2015, 15:20
Just on the point of HMRC and a free ticket.... I don't know to what levels they would go to but would they for instance pay to join the big group on the basis they can glean more information out of it? Call my cynical but I just don't trust them at all. How can we properly vet the members to prevent this or do you not think it will be likely?

You are right in your mistrust.
A vetting process is mandatory. There are ways for that, which individual groups have in place already.

chr16v
29th April 2015, 20:56
i`m in. :yay::yay:

webberg
30th April 2015, 09:10
Picking up on the closed thread about joining a JR for an APN, please note:

For practical reasons, any APN with a payment date within the next three months (say to end July) is unlikely to be subject to a JR via the big group.

This is because the group is unlikely to be functional in sufficient time to appoint a firm for a JR.

(I would also add at the risk of repeating myself, that the purpose of this group is not really JR but the substantive underlying issue of just how much liability exists).

So please don't join if your ONLY reason is you think it will act to stall an APN via a JR.

dangerouswhensober
30th April 2015, 10:42
The group head-count of pledges at the end of Day 5 is 47 - these are (again in no particular order, except for the last few):

linuxcat regron LandRover thecolour
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal z4thras
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict LEC
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980 oldman
flamel Scruff jbryce famousfive
costo fetabob neil99 fielder
DarnEBTs Samatra Axeman convict
lastManStanding bentley0632 a Man of Constant Penguin
Reddevil Gaskie Computer Milo
porrker davieloco Emmybeckmann FTTM
POST #79 - klmedlock
POST #80 - cliffordthedog
POST #85 - staropramen42
POST #86 - FairnesstoAll
POST #93 - zonam
POST #95 - Workinghard
POST #98 - chr16v

With another three possibles:

carling
jrock
lutkeg

Please shout if you think there are any mistakes above ...

(Would be nice to get to the half century within seven days of the first post - which will be 14:32 31st April 2015 - tomorrow afternoon)

webberg
30th April 2015, 10:46
- which will be 14:32 31st April 2015 - tomorrow afternoon)

Excellent - we've gained a day.:laugh

dangerouswhensober
30th April 2015, 11:03
Webberg - In your professional opinion, if I promise to buy the next three people who 'make the pledge' a pint every month for a year, do you think HMRC will let me write that off as an essential personal expense under a future 'time-to-pay' arrangement ? :smile

webberg
30th April 2015, 12:22
Webberg - In your professional opinion, if I promise to buy the next three people who 'make the pledge' a pint every month for a year, do you think HMRC will let me write that off as an essential personal expense under a future 'time-to-pay' arrangement ? :smile

I'm pretty sure that I could get HMRC to agree that such largesse should be taken into account and is fully compliant with tax law and has Counsel backing.

(Incidentally, I prefer Doom Bar or perhaps Gales HSB to any of that there London brewed stuff. I look at the ads for Fullers beer which is apparently "made of London" and think on it carefully whenever I cross the Thames).

Boobetty
30th April 2015, 15:11
I'll take the beer.....I am in

badabr
30th April 2015, 15:14
Count me in

NotAmused
30th April 2015, 15:17
Me too

shevlane
30th April 2015, 15:46
Count me in.

neil99
30th April 2015, 15:53
I'm pretty sure that I could get HMRC to agree that such largesse should be taken into account and is fully compliant with tax law and has Counsel backing.

(Incidentally, I prefer Doom Bar or perhaps Gales HSB to any of that there London brewed stuff. I look at the ads for Fullers beer which is apparently "made of London" and think on it carefully whenever I cross the Thames).

Dear me! You are behind the times on London beer. There are so many new breweries it's hard to keep track. Fullers beer sucks.

Mapped: London’s Breweries And Brewpubs By Borough | Londonist (http://londonist.com/2015/02/mapped-londons-breweries-and-brewpubs-by-borough.php)

webberg
30th April 2015, 16:11
Dear me! You are behind the times on London beer. There are so many new breweries it's hard to keep track. Fullers beer sucks.

Mapped: London’s Breweries And Brewpubs By Borough | Londonist (http://londonist.com/2015/02/mapped-londons-breweries-and-brewpubs-by-borough.php)

I was in the Ship and Shovell (Embankment) yesterday.

I was disappointed with the offerings. Mainly Badgers (and yes it is as rough as a badger's backside) and the guest ale was undrinkable.

Ended up with a fizzy lager.

We do have a brewery and distillery just up the road here though. The brewery is Triple F and I can recommend their Moondance (good light summer beer), Pressed Rat and Warthog; Dazed and Confused. (Spot the link?)

The distillery (gin) is called Gorilla and their first offering is Silver Back - very nice.

Still - ENOUGH - back to work!!:igmc:

turnover
30th April 2015, 22:22
I was in the Ship and Shovell (Embankment) yesterday.

I was disappointed with the offerings. Mainly Badgers (and yes it is as rough as a badger's backside) and the guest ale was undrinkable.

Ended up with a fizzy lager.

We do have a brewery and distillery just up the road here though. The brewery is Triple F and I can recommend their Moondance (good light summer beer), Pressed Rat and Warthog; Dazed and Confused. (Spot the link?)

The distillery (gin) is called Gorilla and their first offering is Silver Back - very nice.

Still - ENOUGH - back to work!!:igmc:

But you can at least say you saw Bobby Davro who was sitting in the table behind us! Hope you noticed!

webberg
1st May 2015, 09:36
Really?

Wonder if he's a contractor?

dangerouswhensober
1st May 2015, 09:49
Excellent - four more pledges (Boobetty, badabr, NotAmused, shevlane) yesterday afternoon takes us to 51 in total with 4 more possible - all within the first seven days.

And - ball*cks - think I might have been less than "dangerous" when I made that little enticement - but I'll stand by it.

BTW1 - "we've gained a day" - yep, I miscounted - please, please don't tell my boss - I'm supposed to be a numerate SME (sic) ...

BTW2 - "Ship and Shovell" is one of my lunch-time locals - I work in the Strand on this contract - not sure about the beer, but it's the only pub I know on two sides of the street.

webberg
1st May 2015, 10:00
Certainly a pub with a split personality.

I like the Chandos as well. they have some interesting beers.

Our office is in Pall Mall and I walk to/from waterloo so all these places are good.

typod
1st May 2015, 10:12
I would like to join, but I am not sure it will assist me too much as come the end of June I expect a hefty bill from HMRC that I cannot pay.

ads1980
1st May 2015, 10:17
I would like to join, but I am not sure it will assist me too much as come the end of June I expect a hefty bill from HMRC that I cannot pay.

More reason to join! I already have a hefty bill that I can't afford. We all need to fight this. And look at it this way, if you can't afford to pay the impending bill, what do you have to lose by joining a group to fight it?

typod
1st May 2015, 10:19
More reason to join! I already have a hefty bill that I can't afford. We all need to fight this. And look at it this way, if you can't afford to pay the impending bill, what do you have to lose by joining a group to fight it?

You are spot on, I will join in. I was holding out some vain hope that this action may delay the payment notices :) Silly I know.

webberg
1st May 2015, 10:25
You are spot on, I will join in. I was holding out some vain hope that this action may delay the payment notices :) Silly I know.

If you want to PM me I can look at the APN and see if something might be done to delay matters.

I emphasise it is delay, not solve.

ads1980
1st May 2015, 10:25
You are spot on, I will join in. I was holding out some vain hope that this action may delay the payment notices :) Silly I know.

I know how you feel. The way I look at it now is that we have all been screwed over. We can't stop the screw from turning but can maybe prevent it going the whole way.

webberg
1st May 2015, 10:28
A lot of people in the medical profession are contractors.

I can't imagine that they are any more prepared for the ventilation/manure interface than any other group but....

The public has a lot of sympathy for this sector.

Stories about nurses being forced into bankruptcy or highly qualified doctors/dentists going bust would be useful and this area is one in which I think BIG GROUP should focus on building numbers.

DotasScandal
1st May 2015, 10:45
A lot of people in the medical profession are contractors.

I can't imagine that they are any more prepared for the ventilation/manure interface than any other group but....

The public has a lot of sympathy for this sector.

Stories about nurses being forced into bankruptcy or highly qualified doctors/dentists going bust would be useful and this area is one in which I think BIG GROUP should focus on building numbers.

I agree! But surely we won't meet them on Contractor UK... How could we reach out to the non-IT sectors?

TonyTucker
1st May 2015, 10:48
Please count me in.

I work in the City so would be able to pop along to any meeting.

webberg
1st May 2015, 10:54
The impending actions are going to rely upon a lot of numbers.

In particular one hurdle to overcome is as follows:

HMRC has identified a "tax gap". In their published papers it's presently around £35bn. Of that the "informal economy :laugh) is £7bn. The avoidance part of also around that value.

If a technical argument is found that is a knock out blow that cannot be resisted by HMRC then they will have to handle the fall out of their own PR. They will also come under the hammer from Parliament for getting the sums wrong as I suspect the parties of all colours are banking on this number arriving.

More likely a technical argument arises that is more grey than white, i.e. good chance but not a killer blow.

In that event it would pay us to help HMRC explain the shortfall in the £7bn avoidance pot both internally and externally. (You can imagine the furore that would arise if HMRC just "gave up" this sort of value).

That help I think falls into a few areas.

One is to examine the numbers in the Red Book (HMG's lies - sorry - statistics that support each Budget) and to find ways in which some tax from avoidance can be not collected without damaging the overall picture.

Another is to press for HMRC action against the global firms.

Another is to point to other areas of the tax code that are regularly abused (EIS).

It all however comes down to managing that message about "contractors are not liable for £1bn (or whatever) of the £7bn and therefore not collecting it will do no harm because xxxxx can just sell more coffee."

Do we have any budding statisticians out there who want to take on the Red Book and HMG numbers?

Penguin
1st May 2015, 11:04
I agree! But surely we won't meet them on Contractor UK... How could we reach out to the non-IT sectors?

I am not an IT contractor and came across this forum when I got my first Discovery Assessment from HMRC and started to do some research into the situation. I guess IT contractors account for a lot of people on here, but the site is called Contractor UK not ITContractor UK.

I guess we could look at where scheme providers (umbrella ones) advertise, e.g. The Salary Calculator - 2015 / 2016 Tax Calculator (http://www.salarycalculator.co.uk) and recruitment websites? and see if there is a way of advertising/linking to them?

SimonJones
1st May 2015, 11:49
I am not an IT contractor and came across this forum when I got my first Discovery Assessment from HMRC and started to do some research into the situation. I guess IT contractors account for a lot of people on here, but the site is called Contractor UK not ITContractor UK.

I guess we could look at where scheme providers (umbrella ones) advertise, e.g. The Salary Calculator - 2015 / 2016 Tax Calculator (http://www.salarycalculator.co.uk) and recruitment websites? and see if there is a way of advertising/linking to them?

Good point Penguin. Can also try social media!

squirrel
1st May 2015, 11:51
HMRC has identified a "tax gap". In their published papers it's presently around £35bn. Of that the "informal economy :laugh) is £7bn. The avoidance part of also around that value

I had a look at their tax gap stats a while ago and I've always wondered if they are total figures or per annum figures?

If it's the former then for £7 billion, £1 billion a year, peanuts in the grand scheme of things, is it really worth them risking the £40k my APN is going to be for when I currently pay just over £20k pa by PAYE every year. If they corner me with an unreasonable TTP I'll quit my job and go on the dole, I'll be no worse off, and they'll get nothing whatsoever.

If it's the latter I've been permie and PAYE for the past seven years so I'm not actually included in that figure anyway and yet they're still after me!

And there will be many more out there just like me ...

DotasScandal
1st May 2015, 11:55
I guess IT contractors account for a lot of people on here, but the site is called Contractor UK not ITContractor UK.


I'd say a good 95%. CUK's headline is this:"Contractor UK is home to the UK's IT contracting community."

webberg
1st May 2015, 12:04
I'd say a good 95%. CUK's headline is this:"Contractor UK is home to the UK's IT contracting community."

There are publications for other sectors and BIG GROUP will be buying space to advertise in them.

however social media, blogs, local press, notice on the board in big companies, chat in a pub, national press (talking to some journo's next week) etc. try them all.

DotasScandal
1st May 2015, 12:37
There are publications for other sectors and BIG GROUP will be buying space to advertise in them.

however social media, blogs, local press, notice on the board in big companies, chat in a pub, national press (talking to some journo's next week) etc. try them all.

Exactly. All members should explore all possible avenues (and, dare I say, the more offline, the better)
We can reach far if we leverage our numbers and personal networks.

ads1980
1st May 2015, 12:59
I've set up a twitter account @BIGGROUP2 and pointed the url back to this thread (is that allowed?) I'll do a search on apn this afternoon and see if I can find any people on there.

Penguin
1st May 2015, 13:43
I'd say a good 95%. CUK's headline is this:"Contractor UK is home to the UK's IT contracting community."

True! :happy

Tweedle
1st May 2015, 16:16
for what it's worth you can have my £50 - hurry up though coz I've just found out I'll be getting an APN for an additional 3 years I hadn't had any previous notice of.....so they'll be wanting every penny I can scrape together.

webberg
1st May 2015, 17:01
for what it's worth you can have my £50 - hurry up though coz I've just found out I'll be getting an APN for an additional 3 years I hadn't had any previous notice of.....so they'll be wanting every penny I can scrape together.

Whoa!

Three years you had no notice of?

Check carefully that the years are open. See my post elsewhere for words.

Leebok
1st May 2015, 22:12
Ive been reading these forums for a few months now and just came across this one. This sounds very proactive and I am in. I also know of at least 2 other contractors with APN's and will most likely be interested.

cojak
2nd May 2015, 06:18
I've set up a twitter account @BIGGROUP2 and pointed the url back to this thread (is that allowed?) I'll do a search on apn this afternoon and see if I can find any people on there.

Yes, that's OK.

warlord
2nd May 2015, 08:15
Count me in.
But I am a paid member of the NTRT group. Who are doing a fab job.
I am receipt of a 50k APN (PLUS HMRC want another 60k in interest etc)

philinlondon
3rd May 2015, 01:09
I think there are over 5k people at one scheme... Maybe we can enquire ...

DonkeyRhubarb
3rd May 2015, 07:26
Based on HMRC's own estimates there are over 20,000 contractors in schemes.

I suspect the real number is much higher still.

bravesirrobin
3rd May 2015, 08:55
Count me in.

TheHat
3rd May 2015, 09:49
Based on HMRC's own estimates there are over 20,000 contractors in schemes.

I suspect the real number is much higher still.

Yep, I know of several people that were in a scheme that appears to have operated completely under HMRC's radar.

mjdes
3rd May 2015, 18:17
count me in :music:

parallelmonogamist
4th May 2015, 10:15
Count me in too.

Btw, it's interesting to see how the Church of Scientology managed to get the IRS to give in to their demands for tax-exempt status. Not that I'm suggesting any group adopts such practices..........

VisV
4th May 2015, 13:23
i am also affected , Count me in for the big group

oldcoboler
4th May 2015, 22:08
Count me in.

neil99
5th May 2015, 07:11
Count me in.

When are we going to meet up ? I can meet in the City or west end.

webberg
5th May 2015, 09:03
From here I think the following plan.

1. Preparation and publication of objectives.
2. Preparation and publication of constitution
3. Details of an initial meeting/conference call/skype, perhaps the end of this week.
4. Officers (not elected for now but to be replaced by elected officers as soon as possible)

Watch this space.

dangerouswhensober
5th May 2015, 09:57
The group head-count of pledges up to 09:00 a.m. on Tuesday 5th May is 61

These are:

linuxcat regron LandRover thecolour
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal z4thras
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict LEC
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980 oldman
flamel Scruff jbryce famousfive
costo fetabob neil99 fielder
DarnEBTs Samatra Axeman convict
lastManStanding bentley0632 a Man of Constant Penguin
Reddevil Gaskie Computer Milo
porrker davieloco Emmybeckmann FTTM
POST #79 - klmedlock
POST #80 - cliffordthedog
POST #85 - staropramen42
POST #86 - FairnesstoAll
POST #93 - zonam
POST #95 - Workinghard
POST #98 - chr16v
POST #104 - Boobetty
POST #105 - badabr
POST #106 - NotAmused
POST #107 - shevlane
POST #116 - typod
POST #121 - TonyTucker
POST #131 - Tweedle
POST #133 - Leebok
POST #135 - warlord
POST #138 - bravesirrobin
POST #140 - mjdes
POST #141 - parallelmonogamist
POST #142 - VisV
POST #143 - oldcoboler

With another three possibles:

carling
jrock
lutkeg

Please shout if any errors in above ...

Sifonet
5th May 2015, 13:31
I'm in

LandRover
5th May 2015, 13:47
Post #20

Count me in.

swhitehe
5th May 2015, 15:44
I'm in. This is a great first step.

ads1980
5th May 2015, 16:09
Please if you can, follow on Twitter @BIGGROUP2 as we are trying to catch as many people who aren't on this forum to bring everyone together.

catch22
5th May 2015, 20:26
Please add me to the list.

Thanks.

regron
5th May 2015, 20:35
Watch out HMRC. Big brothers (NTRT) little brother (BIG GROUP) is joining the fight :-)

Under the Cosh
5th May 2015, 21:09
Please also include me in the BIG GROUP

dangerouswhensober
6th May 2015, 08:53
Post #20

Count me in.

LandRover - You are in the top line of the list of members in post #146.

(But nobody has yet said that you can't join twice - might get a bit a bit expensive for you, but good for Group finances ...:happy)

Bakueagle
6th May 2015, 09:05
Count me in please

andyc2000
6th May 2015, 09:30
Count me in also.

Underbase
6th May 2015, 09:46
I am also in.

opossum
6th May 2015, 12:14
Long time listener - first time caller. Please count me in also

lowpaidworker
6th May 2015, 16:13
Really would like to join if not for anything other than to learn. Just been advised in 1-8 weeks I will be served an APN for 2010-2011 year

kmpm
6th May 2015, 18:25
I will join too.

kmpm
6th May 2015, 18:26
How so I subscribe?

dangerouswhensober
6th May 2015, 21:09
How so I subscribe?

Hi kmpm -

At the moment it is enough to "pledge" an amount of £50. We are in the first stage - assembling a "critical mass" of group members who may be willing to commit to long-term action (and long-term financial commitment).

Our mentor and legal advisor is "webberg" who is a tax professional (and who is also unaffected by the legislation we are seeking to challenge). He is currently preparing formal objectives and a constitution for the group (see post #1 and #145 for more details). There will almost certainly be an initial meeting or conference call in the very near future.

You should also know that, as yet, no group members have met face-to-face.

The current "pledge" count is 70 people (including yourself) plus four more possible members (who have expressed interest but not yet committed). This number has been achieved in less than two weeks since the initial post on this thread.

And ... I do not speak for the group - I'm just repeating and distilling what has been written on this thread thus far.

Please let us know if you don't wish to proceed.

Best wishes - hope you stay with us ...

jenlemon
6th May 2015, 21:57
Count me in too please. Happy to pledge £50 to get started.

jonnieboy
7th May 2015, 12:38
Count me in - if nothing else, there's a warm, fuzzy feeling from knowing you're not alone.

Wellred100
7th May 2015, 14:31
Count me in

Skorekaj
7th May 2015, 15:14
Count me in too.

Samatra
7th May 2015, 16:26
add one more to the list in addtion to me

philinlondon
7th May 2015, 16:35
Same here,pls let me know what I need to do. I just watched Selma last night, it has given me some hope.:freaky:

charlom
7th May 2015, 17:17
I'm in also. Good work.

ffs
7th May 2015, 17:31
This started elsewhere but should be on its own.

I have two takers so far.

To clarify this BIG GROUP is ONE GROUP across ALL schemes.

It does not impact action individuals may wish to take on their own or via other groups.

Let's indulge in some speculation.

A group is formed.

It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations.

It knows that HMRC is not prepared to be sensible in settlement and therefore the only strategy is to defend a number of cases at Tribunal in the hope that a less than 100% victory for HMRC will force them to the table.



I am a little confused but I'm not sure how you can claim that any BIG GROUP actions will not impact individual actions ? I thought the only way to eventually get this resolved was by individual test cases going to FTT/UTT etc Is it possible to be represented by 2 different tax advisors ?

And I think that HMRC would only negotiate if they had less than 50% chance of victory, not less than 100%




The group also defends to extent possible, APN claims and other spurious attempts from the agency to extract funds. This is on the basis that civil disobedience and tying up HMRC resource is an effective strategy.

That may require 5 years.

We'll allow 4 full time staff (admin/website/etc) and a panel of experts. Accommodation, telephone etc. Say £200,000 a year tops. So £1m over 5 years.

"Experts" budget perhaps £1.5m over that period. That's pretty much one average (in terms of charge out rate) tax specialist full time for 5 years.

So £2.5m over 5 years. Let's say £3m.

If the cost per individual was £10 a month for 60 months, how many are needed?

£3m/60/£10 = 5,000 people.

How many contractors impacted?

I don't know. If 100,000, then we're looking at 5% membership.



I thought there were only 30,000 people in total that were caught in the HMRC retro-tax / EBT nightmare ? Where does the 100,000 figure come from ? And 4 people full time for 5 years seems a bit excessive surely ?




To get to that value requires some form of advertising campaign and that in turn requires some seed funding.

There are "litigation funders" out there. They work by advancing legal costs in return for a cut of a "win".



What is defined by a "win" ? We have sod all chance of getting damages from HMRC so do you mean these "litigation funders" would expect a cut of the 'disputed taxes' we are currently fighting to hold on to ?




They might be interested. More likely something like this forum could run a pre funding group and effectively put up initial funds.

I reckon perhaps £25,000 to run the ads and initial letter/email/website stuff.

How many people here?

500? That's £50 each.

So the deal is:

Put up £50. Put up some of your undoubted IT expertise. Hire a temporary project director (on a contract). Ask for volunteers for a steering group (I'd be interested). Elect/appoint a steering committee.

Spend the initial money over 6 months and see what the response is and re-evaluate.

If this is a "go", membership is £10 a month for 60 months (perhaps less/more). Alternatively pay £500 day 1 and then nothing until month 61.

Make sure to get anybody who is willing from NTRT. Make sure to include some PR.

Anybody?

Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly put up £600 to cause grief to HMRC. I am already a paid up member of NTRT even though their s58/BN66 arguments do not apply to me, it is the principle I am fighting for!

I just want to make sure there is no spinning going on and I kind of feel that any arguments you may present are already being presented.

Thanks,

FFS

StrengthInNumbers
7th May 2015, 18:12
FFS while we all are awaiting details I am expecting big group will fill the gap between individuals and associations/groups working on tribunals. Tribunals and courts are the only place where this will be resolved.

In my case, promoter is busy with tribunal. They don't have the time, inclination or resources to help groups to cause hmrc pain or civil disobedience. Big group might be able to do that. My promoter is also going for jr. That said big group again provides a second opinion of facts.

I understand that big group does not add much value to my situation but all those who are not being supported by promoters will need someone to help them.

As u said, I am also in it for principle of this legislation.

neo222
7th May 2015, 21:54
I'd like to join and pay and benefit, but if i can't make meetings physically due to work commitments or attend many voice calls (because of work and family commitments), can i still benefit from email newsletters or similar? Not sure what us users can benefit from if we can't provide much input? obviously our money would be beneficial....

Get my drift?

webberg
8th May 2015, 07:53
FFS, you raise some good points and ones that need to be covered in the constitution.

I'm looking for a "focus group" to test this which I hope will be ready this weekend.

Would you consent to being part of that please?

kmpm
8th May 2015, 11:51
Thanks to dws for reply. Interest still growing I see.

dangerouswhensober
8th May 2015, 13:46
On the 14-day anniversary of the first proposal for the Big Group, the head-count of £50 pledges for the group is 78, with a further 5 possibles.

The pledges are:

linuxcat regron LandRover thecolour
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal z4thras
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict LEC
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980 oldman
flamel Scruff jbryce famousfive
costo fetabob neil99 fielder
DarnEBTs Samatra Axeman convict
lastManStanding bentley0632 a Man of Constant Penguin
Reddevil Gaskie Computer Milo
porrker davieloco Emmybeckmann FTTM
POST #79 - klmedlock
POST #80 - cliffordthedog
POST #85 - staropramen42
POST #86 - FairnesstoAll
POST #93 - zonam
POST #95 - Workinghard
POST #98 - chr16v
POST #104 - Boobetty
POST #105 - badabr
POST #106 - NotAmused
POST #107 - shevlane
POST #116 - typod
POST #121 - TonyTucker
POST #131 - Tweedle
POST #133 - Leebok
POST #135 - warlord
POST #138 - bravesirrobin
POST #140 - mjdes
POST #141 - parallelmonogamist
POST #142 - VisV
POST #143 - oldcoboler
POST #147 - Sifonet
POST #149 - swhitehe
POST #151 - catch22
POST #153 - Under the Cosh
POST #155 - Bakueagle
POST #156 - andyc2000
POST #157 - Underbase
POST #158 - opossum
POST #159 - lowpaidworker
POST #160 - kmpm
POST #163 - jenlemon
POST #164 - jonnieboy
POST #165 - Wellred100
POST #166 - Skorekaj
POST #167 - Samatra
POST #168 - philinlondon
POST #169 - charlom

The possibles are:
- carling
- jrock
- lutkeg
- ffs
- neo222

As ever, please shout if you see any errors above ...

BTW - In an early post on this thread I suggested that the 'pledge count' to prove the concept of this group might be around the 100 mark. The reasoning behind this figure was that if we could get 100 members from the IT contractor community fairly easily, then getting 500 members by expanding to other communities would be probably be within reason. And after 500 members, the concept of 5000 members to support long-term action at low individual cost is a distinct possibilty.

IMO, the figures of 78 members within two weeks is a pretty convincing proof of concept ...

Leebok
8th May 2015, 20:34
This is an interesting article. Could individuals make use of this? Is there any truth in this?
Tax avoidance clampdown threatens rule of law (http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/tax-avoidance-clampdown-threatens-rule-of-law-society/5048528.fullarticle)

webberg
8th May 2015, 23:56
This is an interesting article. Could individuals make use of this? Is there any truth in this?
Tax avoidance clampdown threatens rule of law (http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/tax-avoidance-clampdown-threatens-rule-of-law-society/5048528.fullarticle)

1. No
2. yes

ratehik1
9th May 2015, 17:20
Count me in please

whiteisland
9th May 2015, 17:26
I would also like to join the group.
Count me in pls!

whiteisland
9th May 2015, 17:35
I would also like to join the group and the £50 starting fee seems totally reasonable.

And now, how do we connect all together and start sharing information?

If possible, a separate web or forum with strict joining rules; e.g. not easily approachable by HMRC agents.

Any ideas?

DotasScandal
9th May 2015, 22:11
I would also like to join the group and the £50 starting fee seems totally reasonable.
And now, how do we connect all together and start sharing information?
If possible, a separate web or forum with strict joining rules; e.g. not easily approachable by HMRC agents.

Any ideas?

Hi whiteisland,
Things are getting organized, there will be a kick-off meeting in the coming weeks. In due time, we will move communication to a dedicated forum, where members will be vetted. Rest assured that HMRC staff will be kept at bay ;)

jma
10th May 2015, 12:03
hi webberg ... I'm in .. thanks for organising. This obviously isn't going to help with the trentburg to settle / not to settle decision many of us are having to make in the coming weeks but I suspect this is not the end so we may as well prepare for the coming years.

bstar1
10th May 2015, 13:18
Can you please tell me who I PM for the details.

Many Thanks

dangerouswhensober
10th May 2015, 17:28
Can you please tell me who I PM for the details.

Many Thanks

Hi bstar1 -

Don't PM anyone just yet - see post #162 - but keep checking the thread over the next few days ...

Best wishes

webberg
11th May 2015, 10:25
I'm nearly ready to circulate a draft objectives and constitution paper and appoint a committee to kick things off.

I propose a series of meetings and conference calls and perhaps Skype conferences for next week (18th to the 22nd) May with a view to finalising the position before the end of the month.

Some of you have offered to help with the IT side (thank you as I'm lacking any skills in that area) and I have coerced some others into making their skills available.

If anybody else would like to be part of the initial process, please let me know.

webberg
12th May 2015, 08:04
here's a question.

The broad strokes of the strategy for this group have been discussed openly here.

The detail of the tactics not.

On the one hand keeping your powder dry and away from the eyes of the opposition is good but perhaps of limited value here because of the structure?

On the other, being inclusive and getting the messages out there via this forum and others spreads the message and builds numbers.

Discuss.

regron
12th May 2015, 08:27
Are we able to start some kind of newsletter like NTRT. No need to reinvent the wheel then, so to speak. We continue to build group numbers on here and discuss certain aspects, but any juicy info is included in the newsletter. I would expect this to also help increase a following.

squirrel
12th May 2015, 11:25
here's a question.

The broad strokes of the strategy for this group have been discussed openly here.

The detail of the tactics not.

On the one hand keeping your powder dry and away from the eyes of the opposition is good but perhaps of limited value here because of the structure?

On the other, being inclusive and getting the messages out there via this forum and others spreads the message and builds numbers.

Discuss.

Personally I don't think we need to discuss the finer details on here at all. The cost of the BIG GROUP will be enough to attract interest, particularly from those who feel left behind. The biggest hurdle will be raising awareness of our existence to non-forum users, "You are not alone". Social media and advertising is the best way forward. I do think, however, that we need to ensure that whatever tweeting and facebooking we do, it doesn't constantly contain damning reports of government officials and the like. All we really want to do is make as many people aware of us as possible, they are intelligent enough to follow up on it. If we include Osborne this and Gauke that, people will give us more grief. There is a place for all that stuff absolutely, but we want to get the message out, not tarnish ourselves with the same brush...

My 2p anyway :-)

DotasScandal
12th May 2015, 11:37
we need to ensure that whatever tweeting and facebooking we do, it doesn't constantly contain damning reports of government officials and the like

DotasScandal has got that niche covered! ;) (until the second coming of BeenGauked, that is :))

More constructively - I agree, and I also think that the outreach efforts should be focused very much OFFline. There is a whole world of contractors out there would couldn't give a damn about social media, or internet forums for that matter.
That is where we want to spread the word IMO.

Cerbera
13th May 2015, 12:59
Just joined the site. Received 2 APN's yesterday and would like to join

AngryMan
13th May 2015, 14:29
Sorry I'm sure this has already been covered.

How is the group going to cover the many different schemes? I'm sure some are legal and others aren't? There hundreds of different ones

Also once someone goes down this route you have to see it out. You are going to lose the benefits of the settlement offer. Is there a risk the group dies off if one or two of its founders disappear/lose interest?

squirrel
13th May 2015, 15:23
Sorry I'm sure this has already been covered.

How is the group going to cover the many different schemes? I'm sure some are legal and others aren't? There hundreds of different ones

Also once someone goes down this route you have to see it out. You are going to lose the benefits of the settlement offer. Is there a risk the group dies off if one or two of its founders disappear/lose interest?

Can't specifically answer the first point re multiple schemes, there are much better placed specialists on here to help.

However, there are no benefits to the settlement offer. It's full tax plus interest and even then it isn't the end if HMRC decide to throw IHT or NICs on at a later date. No discounts whatsoever.

Don't take this the wrong way, I do understand the question, but it's not a local knitting circle. There is too much at stake for pretty much all those who want to join, the BIG GROUP is our only hope. I can't see it dying off but it will be a long haul for everyone. It will either be victorious or go down in a blaze of glory. Never a whimper.

webberg
13th May 2015, 16:02
Sorry I'm sure this has already been covered.

How is the group going to cover the many different schemes? I'm sure some are legal and others aren't? There hundreds of different ones

Also once someone goes down this route you have to see it out. You are going to lose the benefits of the settlement offer. Is there a risk the group dies off if one or two of its founders disappear/lose interest?

Good questions:

1. The Group is seeking common issues between schemes and the application of common solutions to the same HMRC arguments arising on those issues.

2. Legal or otherwise is a red herring. unless there has been a fraud (illegal) then the argument is about which of two legal interpretations is the better one.

3. There are perhaps 40 to 45 schemes. These fit around 3 to 4 generic patterns. These schemes were designed by perhaps 4 to 6 architects and as law changed, they changed elements but not the underlying concepts.

4. Once in a group, your choices are: leave and seek individual settlement outside the group; stay with the group, see what their settlement is and take it or choose not to; leave the group and take the HMRC offer; leave the group and litigate.

5. The HMRC offer expires in June. One objective of the group is to get another offer later (hopefully on better terms). But you are correct, if you decide not to take the offer, you will lose it. If you take the offer, no point in joining any group.

6. Yes there is a risk that if the prime movers settle or move away or lose interest, then the group founders. Two key ways of stopping this. First, a strong management committee made up of people who are involved and have skin in the game but are not committed full time. Second, a paid for strategist/adviser/administrator whose job is to operate the group.

Hope this helps.

Berner
14th May 2015, 09:53
I'd be interested in Joing Big Group. Can I have the details please

Thanks

Berner

lilikins1
14th May 2015, 10:08
Hello. Would be interested in joining the group please can I have the details

dangerouswhensober
14th May 2015, 10:56
I'd be interested in Joing Big Group. Can I have the details please

Thanks

Berner

Hi Berner -

You're now on the list to get details when they are circulated - See post #162 - and keep checking the thread over the next few days ...

Best wishes

dangerouswhensober
14th May 2015, 10:57
Hello. Would be interested in joining the group please can I have the details

Hi lilikins1 -

You are also now on the list to get details when they are circulated - See post #162 - and keep checking the thread over the next few days ...

Best wishes

dangerouswhensober
14th May 2015, 11:05
Instead of ploughing through the whole thread ...

Look at posts #1, #162, and #193 - these should tell you most of what you need to know to decide whether to make an initial £50 pledge ...

(Then read the other posts to get the general mood of the Group ...)

KRAMB
14th May 2015, 12:30
Hi,

Would like to come on board and make the initial contribution of 50 pounds

Currently, I have an Agent managing my interests as my situation is slightly different to most. I used an off-shore EBT scheme but did so while contracting outside the U.K - European country - with very few return visits

HMRC - APN Team - recently sent pre notice to wrong address and will issue again. However, Today, they indicated APNs are imminent for the 4 years activity despite another HMRC department having all the details of my non residency - I guess they will start talking to each other when I recommend the APN amount should be Zero

So, if I am unfortunate to avoid a HMRC hit then for the Big Group I am very much with it. If I am fortunate to owe nothing I will still make a contribution

MinHeadRoom
14th May 2015, 23:41
Count me in too please

cojak
15th May 2015, 06:37
here's a question.

The broad strokes of the strategy for this group have been discussed openly here.

The detail of the tactics not.

On the one hand keeping your powder dry and away from the eyes of the opposition is good but perhaps of limited value here because of the structure?

On the other, being inclusive and getting the messages out there via this forum and others spreads the message and builds numbers.

Discuss.

Speak to turnover or OldKentRoad for how they started their Private Google groups.

I would suggest that you follow their vetting rules.

webberg
15th May 2015, 18:06
All those who have kindly offered to help with the above will be contacted in the next couple of days.

I will then circulate to that group and perhaps a few others the objectives and core rules of the Group.

There will be a conference call/video later next week and I'm aiming to launch officially June 1st.

I think funds will be required after that as we will need to establish a bank account.

(I need to think about the VAT as well).

So, this is a last call for volunteers please.

AllenTaylor
18th May 2015, 10:27
Just found this site, hope it's not too late!

squirrel
18th May 2015, 12:51
Just found this site, hope it's not too late!

Not too late, have a good read through of this thread you should get an idea of where we are at the mo...

RichieJ
18th May 2015, 16:04
APN arrived. Currently seething...

Geeves
18th May 2015, 20:37
Count me in!

neo222
18th May 2015, 22:15
Please count me in as a confirmed.

Thanks, Neo

meanttobeworking
19th May 2015, 06:43
Please include me in the list of recipients of more info when it becomes available. I have mentioned this group to others - any idea when I can point them to something more solid than the three referenced posts above?

webberg
19th May 2015, 08:41
Please include me in the list of recipients of more info when it becomes available. I have mentioned this group to others - any idea when I can point them to something more solid than the three referenced posts above?

Yes.

Before the long weekend, I will publish to all who have indicated a willingness to listen the following:

1. Draft of objectives
2. Draft of strategy to reach objectives
3. Draft of organisation required
4. List of requirement to operate.
5. Draft of how information is made visible to members etc

ALL of the above for discussion and looking for volunteers for certain posts.

Once we are happy - and I will impose a deadline - I think the following happens.

a. we decide how "open" the group is in terms of sharing materials
b. decide that we need to crack on before any cash/banking arrangements are in place

So BEFORE this long weekend

dangerouswhensober
19th May 2015, 09:32
The current head-count of £50 pledges for the 'Big Group' is 89, with a further 7 possibles.

The pledges are:

linuxcat regron LandRover thecolour
dangerouswhensober MercladUK DotasScandal z4thras
squirrel StrengthInNumbers convict LEC
jcb78 Sky Rocket ads1980 oldman
flamel Scruff jbryce famousfive
costo fetabob neil99 fielder
DarnEBTs Samatra Axeman convict
lastManStanding bentley0632 a Man of Constant Penguin
Reddevil Gaskie Computer Milo
porrker davieloco Emmybeckmann FTTM
POST #79 - klmedlock
POST #80 - cliffordthedog
POST #85 - staropramen42
POST #86 - FairnesstoAll
POST #93 - zonam
POST #95 - Workinghard
POST #98 - chr16v
POST #104 - Boobetty
POST #105 - badabr
POST #106 - NotAmused
POST #107 - shevlane
POST #116 - typod
POST #121 - TonyTucker
POST #131 - Tweedle
POST #133 - Leebok
POST #135 - warlord
POST #138 - bravesirrobin
POST #140 - mjdes
POST #141 - parallelmonogamist
POST #142 - VisV
POST #143 - oldcoboler
POST #147 - Sifonet
POST #149 - swhitehe
POST #151 - catch22
POST #153 - Under the Cosh
POST #155 - Bakueagle
POST #156 - andyc2000
POST #157 - Underbase
POST #158 - opossum
POST #159 - lowpaidworker
POST #160 - kmpm
POST #163 - jenlemon
POST #164 - jonnieboy
POST #165 - Wellred100
POST #166 - Skorekaj
POST #167 - Samatra
POST #168 - philinlondon
POST #169 - charlom
POST #178 - ratehik1
POST #179 - whiteisland
POST #190 - Cerbera
POST #194 - Berner
POST #195 - lilikins1
POST #199 - KRAMB
POST #200 - MinHeadRoom
POST #203 - AllenTaylor
POST #206 - Geeves
POST #207 - neo222
BY PM - OG74

The possibles are:
- carling
- jrock
- lutkeg
- ffs
- bstar1
- RichieJ
- meanttobeworking

As ever, please shout if there are any errors in the above lists. Most particularly, please let us know if either:
(a) you are listed as having 'pledged' and this is not correct, or
(b) you are listed as a possible and you wish to be a little more definite, or
(c) you are not listed and you wish to be.

jn3
19th May 2015, 10:44
Interested in finding out more once details available - thanks

GoneSurfing
19th May 2015, 11:40
Count me in!

daggas66
19th May 2015, 13:49
Count me in too please.

Sting
19th May 2015, 15:09
Please add me to the numbers. One month in to my APN payment date.

lorry
19th May 2015, 16:21
count me in please

Andy123
19th May 2015, 17:49
Please add me to the Big Group. I pledge the £50. Better late than never!

morris3372
19th May 2015, 19:54
Hi Please add me to the list

gfunk
19th May 2015, 20:07
You can count me in.

retrodeath
19th May 2015, 20:55
I'm in.

Been advised that my APN is coming for the EBT schemes I was in.

Even if it doesn't help me I like the idea of it helping others.

WelshRarebit
20th May 2015, 09:19
Hi, can you count me in.

Thanks

:ladybags:

flyinghaggis
20th May 2015, 09:43
I'm in.

jbyrne
20th May 2015, 11:54
count me in please

dangerouswhensober
20th May 2015, 14:17
Earlier this afternoon, the number of people who have 'pledged' an initial £50 to get this group going passed the 100 mark, and we are now at 101. There are also a further 6 people who have expressed an interest in possibly joining at a later date.

To have gathered such numbers in a group in less than four weeks says (I think) a lot about the depth of feeling about the HMG/HMRC persecution of law-abiding people - even more so since we recognise that this will, in all likelihood - be a loooooooong fight.

So thanks to all who have committed, and self-congratulations to us all ...

And many thanks also to 'webberg' for proposing and driving this course of action.

The full lists of 'pledgees' and 'interested parties' are below.

(The only reason I have put the POST# against each name is to avoid confusion over who may have said what and when, and to allow some de-duplication).

(BTW - Special thanks to 'convict' and 'Samatra' who pledged twice - would like to take your money twice guys, but I think 'webberg' might tell us that could be against the Group constitution)

Could everyone check the following:
(a) If you are listed as having 'pledged' and this is not correct - please send me a PM just saying that you want to be removed from the list, and it will be done.
(b) If you are listed as a possible and you wish to be a little more definite - please post on this thread.
(c) If you are not listed and you wish to be - please post on this thread.

Many thanks

Full pledges

POST #0002 - linuxcat
POST #0003 - dangerouswhensober
POST #0004 - squirrel
POST #0006 - jcb78
POST #0009 - flamel
POST #0010 - regron
POST #0016 - MercladUK
POST #0017 - StrengthInNumbers
POST #0018 - Sky Rocket
POST #0019 - Scruff
POST #0020 - LandRover
POST #0021 - DotasScandal
POST #0022 - convict
POST #0023 - ads1980
POST #0028 - jbryce
POST #0030 - costo
POST #0035 - thecolour
POST #0036 - z4thras
POST #0048 - LEC
POST #0051 - oldman
POST #0052 - famousfive
POST #0053 - DarnEBTs
POST #0054 - neil99
POST #0055 - Axeman
POST #0056 - a Man of Constant
POST #0058 - Computer
POST #0059 - porrker
POST #0060 - davieloco
POST #0061 - Emmybeckmann
POST #0062 - FTTM
POST #0063 - lutkeg
POST #0066 - lastManStanding
POST #0069 - Reddevil
POST #0070 - bentley0632
POST #0071 - Gaskie
POST #0072 - fetabob
POST #0073 - Samatra
POST #0074 - fielder
POST #0076 - Penguin
POST #0077 - Milo
POST #0079 - klmedlock
POST #0080 - cliffordthedog
POST #0085 - staropramen42
POST #0086 - FairnesstoAll
POST #0093 - zonam
POST #0095 - Workinghard
POST #0098 - chr16v
POST #0104 - Boobetty
POST #0105 - badabr
POST #0106 - NotAmused
POST #0107 - shevlane
POST #0116 - typod
POST #0121 - TonyTucker
POST #0131 - Tweedle
POST #0133 - Leebok
POST #0135 - warlord
POST #0138 - bravesirrobin
POST #0140 - mjdes
POST #0141 - parallelmonogamist
POST #0142 - VisV
POST #0143 - oldcoboler
POST #0147 - Sifonet
POST #0149 - swhitehe
POST #0151 - catch22
POST #0153 - Under the Cosh
POST #0155 - Bakueagle
POST #0156 - andyc2000
POST #0157 - Underbase
POST #0158 - opossum
POST #0159 - lowpaidworker
POST #0160 - kmpm
POST #0163 - jenlemon
POST #0164 - jonnieboy
POST #0165 - Wellred100
POST #0166 - Skorekaj
POST #0168 - philinlondon
POST #0169 - charlom
POST #0178 - ratehik1
POST #0179 - whiteisland
POST #0182 - jma
POST #0183 - bstar1
POST #0190 - Cerbera
POST #0194 - Berner
POST #0195 - lilikins1
POST #0199 - KRAMB
POST #0200 - MinHeadRoom
POST #0203 - AllenTaylor
POST #0206 - Geeves
POST #0207 - neo222
POST #0212 - GoneSurfing
POST #0213 - daggas66
POST #0214 - Sting
POST #0215 - lorry
POST #0216 - Andy123
POST #0217 - morris3372
POST #0218 - gfunk
POST #0219 - retrodeath
POST #0220 - WelshRarebit
POST #0221 - flyinghaggis
POST #0222 - jbyrne
BYPM #0000 - OG74

Possibles

POST #0043 - jrock
POST #0045 - carling
POST #0170 - ffs
POST #0205 - RichieJ
POST #0208 - meanttobeworking
POST #0211 - jn3

DotasScandal
20th May 2015, 15:04
Well done to all who pledged and spread the word (and to dangerouswhensober for keeping track of it all).
Let's get this exponential, guys...together we are strong! next stop 1000 :)

webberg
20th May 2015, 15:47
Earlier this afternoon, the number of people who have 'pledged' an initial £50 to get this group going passed the 100 mark, and we are now at 101.

Great work from all concerned.

As a reward, everybody on the list gets a copy of the objectives paper to mull over this weekend.

There is a deadline for responses as well so that we can press some buttons and get this moving by the end of the month.

Also, be warned that I'm going to APPOINT an initial group to lead the whole thing. We can have elections later.

Some have already expressed a desire to help out. If anybody else wishes to volunteer now or with their thoughts on the paper, that would be welcome.

My thanks to the official counters here.

The feeling is evident and you have already scared Margaret Hodge into leaving the PAC!:yay:

ads1980
20th May 2015, 21:39
Great work from all concerned.

As a reward, everybody on the list gets a copy of the objectives paper to mull over this weekend.

There is a deadline for responses as well so that we can press some buttons and get this moving by the end of the month.

Also, be warned that I'm going to APPOINT an initial group to lead the whole thing. We can have elections later.

Some have already expressed a desire to help out. If anybody else wishes to volunteer now or with their thoughts on the paper, that would be welcome.

My thanks to the official counters here.

The feeling is evident and you have already scared Margaret Hodge into leaving the PAC!:yay:

Hi Webberg. Thanks very much for driving this forward and also to dangerouswhensober! I will put my name forward to volunteer with anything I can so let me know how I can help. Thanks again guns and well done everyone!

geee
21st May 2015, 07:10
I have enough love letters for HRH already so I am happy to join up in order to spun her advances :)

Urbania1966
22nd May 2015, 10:04
Have just recently joined. Count me in as well please.

CanPayButWouldRatherNot
22nd May 2015, 11:43
MTM loan scheme user .. hedging my bets by joining the BIG group

LetsGoSailing
22nd May 2015, 12:24
I'm in.
Thanks

Tankgirl
22nd May 2015, 13:38
I'm in too.

chipamundo
22nd May 2015, 13:45
Hi, Just joined the forum today, count me in too

nickersan
22nd May 2015, 18:48
I'm in...

staggering
23rd May 2015, 08:11
I've only recently joined but you can count me in.

webberg
23rd May 2015, 09:06
Thanks to all here.

Quick update - I've been delayed in the initial paper and now tomorrow pm looks best bet. My apologies but I had clients with more urgent issues to deal with.

Secondly.

BIG GROUP works with and for other provider groups. In particular it is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that the NTRT challenge goes ahead.

If you are involved in that and have yet to join up, I urge you to do so because you will be helping yourself and everybody else.

Sign up - NOW.

DonkeyRhubarb
23rd May 2015, 11:27
We've already raised more than enough.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/105135-no-retro-tax-ongoing-battle-against-s58-fa2008-176.html#post2097262

I hope we serve as an example to BIG GROUP as to what can be achieved if a group of people are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

When the time comes, be prepared to dig deep folks. (Our members have stumped up £900 each)

££££££ = Power

TheFlyer
23rd May 2015, 12:09
Anyone on here that was with the MtM loan scheme and has received an APN for April 2008 onwards? Thanks.

DonkeyRhubarb
24th May 2015, 06:41
Anyone on here that was with the MtM loan scheme and has received an APN for April 2008 onwards? Thanks.

The scheme wasn't DOTAS registered, so it won't be on the list for APNs.

njwilli3
24th May 2015, 19:27
I was on the White Collar scheme, I've had a discovery notice for 10/11 and a self-assessment showing a 5 digit figure, however I haven't received an APN yet. Has anyone else on the same scheme?

Also I'd like to pledge support too and join the BIG GROUP.

Currently toying with the idea of joining another third-party (MyFD) that WC has decided to offload us to due to the capacity of contractors involved.

dangerouswhensober
24th May 2015, 21:27
I was on the White Collar scheme, I've had a discovery notice for 10/11 and a self-assessment showing a 5 digit figure, however I haven't received an APN yet. Has anyone else on the same scheme?

Also I'd like to pledge support too and join the BIG GROUP.

Currently toying with the idea of joining another third-party (MyFD) that WC has decided to offload us to due to the capacity of contractors involved.

You might like to read my post #359 on the thread dedicated to WCC (and subsequent posts):

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-scheme-enquiries/87442-hmrc-enquiries-schemes-through-asmg-white-collar-36.html#post2097144

Just to repeat - I was told that the WCC scheme was non-DOTAS - so you should not expect to receive an APN for your involvement in that scheme.

I have been advised that there may come a time when HMRC will direct their attention to non-DOTAS schemes (like WCC) - but that is probably a long way off - certainly not while they have a nice handy list of DOTAS scheme members to target immediately ...

njwilli3
24th May 2015, 22:30
You might like to read my post #359 on the thread dedicated to WCC (and subsequent posts):

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-scheme-enquiries/87442-hmrc-enquiries-schemes-through-asmg-white-collar-36.html#post2097144

Just to repeat - I was told that the WCC scheme was non-DOTAS - so you should not expect to receive an APN for your involvement in that scheme.

I have been advised that there may come a time when HMRC will direct their attention to non-DOTAS schemes (like WCC) - but that is probably a long way off - certainly not while they have a nice handy list of DOTAS scheme members to target immediately ...

Thanks dangerouswhensober, so if we choose not to use MyFD, will this group provide help on what to do if I get a letter from HMRC that I don't know how to deal with - i.e. the value that WC are touting that MyFD will provide is help with correspondence and advice on tax affairs/position etc. and they may take it as far as FTT but that's questionable. I guess the other guys on this thread seem to be in a lot worse position with APNs being issued. Does it sound like I have time until HMRC goes after the non-DOTAS guys, so I can avoid HMRC (and MyFD) for as long as this group takes to develop and hopefully attain it's overall goal? If anyone has any idea how long that will take? Maybe a question to Webberg that last bit.

webberg
25th May 2015, 09:04
Thanks dangerouswhensober, so if we choose not to use MyFD, will this group provide help on what to do if I get a letter from HMRC that I don't know how to deal with - i.e. the value that WC are touting that MyFD will provide is help with correspondence and advice on tax affairs/position etc. and they may take it as far as FTT but that's questionable. I guess the other guys on this thread seem to be in a lot worse position with APNs being issued. Does it sound like I have time until HMRC goes after the non-DOTAS guys, so I can avoid HMRC (and MyFD) for as long as this group takes to develop and hopefully attain it's overall goal? If anyone has any idea how long that will take? Maybe a question to Webberg that last bit.

The answer to the last question is how long is a piece of fish.

White Collar is not, so far as I know, disclosed and is therefore not on the DOTAS list for now. Therefore no APN.

You may still get questions from HMRC. To the extent that these are general questions to begin with, if you are part of BIG GROUP, you will be provided with responses.

If these become much more detailed, then you may need to engage an adviser outside BIG GROUP. We would anticipate being able to recommend somebody.

In due course either a WC member will go through a court process to decide on the correct answer to whether the sums were taxable or not, or another case will be taken that is similar enough to make any fight unwinable.

Given HMRC's lack of information at the moment, perhaps 5 years plus for the latter.

Start saving.

webberg
25th May 2015, 15:54
Is available.

I've PM'd the first 20 or so on the provisional subscribers list.

If anybody else would like to see it, please let me know.

It's important to get this right (for many reasons) and CRITICAL that we know what the Group is meant to do and what it cannot do.

Be warned that I will want some proof that anybody requesting a copy is not HMRC and/or somebody involved in this situation as a provider of schemes.

Underbase
25th May 2015, 23:39
Is available.

I've PM'd the first 20 or so on the provisional subscribers list.

If anybody else would like to see it, please let me know.

It's important to get this right (for many reasons) and CRITICAL that we know what the Group is meant to do and what it cannot do.

Be warned that I will want some proof that anybody requesting a copy is not HMRC and/or somebody involved in this situation as a provider of schemes.

ADMINS: Can I please get PM rights so I can message webberg for the doc?

traveller9266
26th May 2015, 12:01
Count me in also

Can u pls pm me a copy
Thnx




Is available.

I've PM'd the first 20 or so on the provisional subscribers list.

If anybody else would like to see it, please let me know.

It's important to get this right (for many reasons) and CRITICAL that we know what the Group is meant to do and what it cannot do.

Be warned that I will want some proof that anybody requesting a copy is not HMRC and/or somebody involved in this situation as a provider of schemes.

mulberryblue
26th May 2015, 13:43
Can u pls pm me a copy
Thnx

Tass1968
26th May 2015, 14:15
Hi - little late to the party, but would like to add my name as a pledge.

XContractor
26th May 2015, 14:16
Ex-Edge, no longer a contractor. Got an APN.

Can I PM webberg for more info?

Thanks.

Milo
26th May 2015, 16:00
May I have a copy please?

Thanks

bstar1
27th May 2015, 10:17
Could I too have a copy please. Pm me.