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webberg
27th April 2015, 16:05
The following is a response from HMRC - OFFICIAL.

The example given is where an APN for £100 is issued, not paid so attracts a maximum 15% penalty and later the final liability is less than £100. In other words the APN as issued is excessive and perhaps issued in order to coerce people into settlement.

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

The late payment penalties apply if payment is not made in respect of an APN by the due date, irrespective of the final outcome of the matter. So in your example below, the total of £15 of penalties would remain.

When there is a JR challenge, the penalty is chargeable from the stated due date for payment of the APN.

I have not checked the rules in depth yet but I think another series of challenges is probably the result if this response is correct.

StrengthInNumbers
27th April 2015, 16:55
How sensible.

Definitely jr should be able to do something about this stupidity.

webberg
27th April 2015, 17:37
How sensible.

Definitely jr should be able to do something about this stupidity.

Read the third paragraph in particular.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/you-and-the-judiciary/judicial-review/

A JR is is about the PROCESS. Has the process and procedure been applied correctly? Is HMRC (in this case) competent to exercise the authority? Has that authority been applied in the way the rules say?

A challenge to the actual law has to be brought under different legislation.

Consequently if the LAW produces the above result (and I'm not convinced it does), then we may well be stuffed.

StrengthInNumbers
27th April 2015, 18:09
JR cannot be based on human rights (or if something like right to basic justice exist) etc? It has to be only process?

StrengthInNumbers
27th April 2015, 18:41
Seems like completely useless JR. Basically government can do the same again.

webberg
27th April 2015, 19:31
In areas like immigration and health, JR is often used to allege abuse of process and thus force a change in the process (which usually requires a change in the law).

It works very well in such areas because it's easy to draw international comparisons and contrasts.

Matters which are protected by sovereign privilege (tax) - much more difficult to use JR as a tool to change the law. Not impossible, but difficult.

squirrel
27th April 2015, 21:14
APN lands on the mat for £50k. Can't pay it, can't agree a TTP with HMRC because they're being unreasonable ;-) HMRC add penalties. 5%, another 5% and then another 5% after 12 months. £7.5k penalties in total. So what. Couldn't pay the £50k, not much is going to change when it becomes £57.5k!

Kind of reminds me of banks adding charges for unpaid DDs that take you even further into overdraft. I thought the banks got told off by the government for doing that and there is a lot of bank charges reclaiming going on...

Anyway, when do HMRC start threatening court action etc? After the 12 months and 15% penalties added or immediately the APN becomes unpaid?

StrengthInNumbers
27th April 2015, 21:27
I think they will wait for 11 months based in the way they are going about things.

webberg
28th April 2015, 06:54
APN lands on the mat for £50k. Can't pay it, can't agree a TTP with HMRC because they're being unreasonable ;-) HMRC add penalties. 5%, another 5% and then another 5% after 12 months. £7.5k penalties in total. So what. Couldn't pay the £50k, not much is going to change when it becomes £57.5k!

Kind of reminds me of banks adding charges for unpaid DDs that take you even further into overdraft. I thought the banks got told off by the government for doing that and there is a lot of bank charges reclaiming going on...

Anyway, when do HMRC start threatening court action etc? After the 12 months and 15% penalties added or immediately the APN becomes unpaid?

I'd agree with Strength on action over the penalty.

Action over the APN perhaps a few months after due date, especially if you've not contacted them

zimbtar
29th April 2015, 09:52
I'd agree with Strength on action over the penalty.

Action over the APN perhaps a few months after due date, especially if you've not contacted them

What if you have already told them that there is no way you can pay the amount of the SO and there is no way you are willing to pay £x00s / month for the rest of your days?
This is of course in writing and recorded.

HMRC - We want £ xx 000s.
"Customer" - I don't have it
HMRC - Well in that case we want £ x 000s + another £ xx 00s in penalties and £ xx 00s in interest.
"Customer" - I don't have it
etc

DonkeyRhubarb
29th April 2015, 09:56
What if you have already told them that there is no way you can pay the amount of the SO and there is no way you are willing to pay £x00s / month for the rest of your days?
This is of course in writing and recorded.

HMRC - We want £ xx 000s.
"Customer" - I don't have it
HMRC - Well in that case we want £ x 000s + another £ xx 00s in penalties and £ xx 00s in interest.
"Customer" - I don't have it
etc

If you don't pay an APN it is an enforceable debt.

At the moment we just don't know far HMRC would go to enforce it.

DonkeyRhubarb
29th April 2015, 11:02
The following is a response from HMRC - OFFICIAL.

The example given is where an APN for £100 is issued, not paid so attracts a maximum 15% penalty and later the final liability is less than £100. In other words the APN as issued is excessive and perhaps issued in order to coerce people into settlement.

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

The late payment penalties apply if payment is not made in respect of an APN by the due date, irrespective of the final outcome of the matter. So in your example below, the total of £15 of penalties would remain.

When there is a JR challenge, the penalty is chargeable from the stated due date for payment of the APN.

I have not checked the rules in depth yet but I think another series of challenges is probably the result if this response is correct.

I can't decide if 1.13.10 contradicts the above.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366809/acc-pymts-f-notices.pdf

1.14.4 also suggests that you get the penalty refunded if you win the substantive litigation (your tax appeal)

MishiMoo
29th April 2015, 11:35
I can't decide if 1.13.10 contradicts the above.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366809/acc-pymts-f-notices.pdf

1.14.4 also suggests that you get the penalty refunded if you win the substantive litigation (your tax appeal)

I think that 1.14.4 refers to penalties in respect of Follower Notices (section 1). Penalties in respect of non-payment of APNs are dealt with in section 2.7. I cannot find any section that deals with the situation where a penalty for non-payment of an APN has been applied, but where the scheme was later found to work, but that does not mean it's not there somewhere. Or maybe they just forgot to add that bit?

DonkeyRhubarb
29th April 2015, 12:20
I think that 1.14.4 refers to penalties in respect of Follower Notices (section 1). Penalties in respect of non-payment of APNs are dealt with in section 2.7. I cannot find any section that deals with the situation where a penalty for non-payment of an APN has been applied, but where the scheme was later found to work, but that does not mean it's not there somewhere. Or maybe they just forgot to add that bit?

Thanks for correcting my mistake.

The whole thing is a convoluted nightmare. Penalties on a debt that might not be a debt. Penalties on a debt that aren't refundable if the debt turns out not to be a debt.

:freaky:

DotasScandal
29th April 2015, 12:39
The whole thing is a convoluted nightmare. Penalties on a debt that might not be a debt. Penalties on a debt that aren't refundable if the debt turns out not to be a debt.:freaky:

This. Truly the creation of an insane mind!

MishiMoo
29th April 2015, 12:40
Thanks for correcting my mistake.

The whole thing is a convoluted nightmare. Penalties on a debt that might not be a debt. Penalties on a debt that aren't refundable if the debt turns out not to be a debt.

:freaky:

Agreed 100% You literally could not make it up!

foobar
15th May 2015, 13:25
Suppose you had the means and you pay the APN - What happens next?

Your case is still not settled as far as I understand but at least you will have avoided any penalties?

Join a group and off to the FTT to fight to get the money back?

Have I made any staggering assumptions that are wrong??

LandRover
15th May 2015, 15:05
Suppose you had the means and you pay the APN - What happens next?

Your case is still not settled as far as I understand but at least you will have avoided any penalties?

Join a group and off to the FTT to fight to get the money back?

Have I made any staggering assumptions that are wrong??

Ultimately its FTT, but sadly with appeals and procedures...could be years of waiting for a final outcome:mad

centurian
15th May 2015, 17:02
Your case is still not settled as far as I understand but at least you will have avoided any penalties?

The APN penalties at least - there may still be penalties applied to the underlying case if lost, although the general view is that penalties are unlikely if you fully declared the scheme on your tax return.