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Underbase
22nd May 2015, 15:01
Hi,

If the APN is incorrect, (eg the Loan amount is wrong) but you cannot provide bank statements for that year, and the provider is now closed so you cannot get any documentation from them, how can you prove to HMRC what the loan amount was. Where did they get the information from as their calculation for one year is a round figure so looks totally made up?

squirrel
22nd May 2015, 15:09
I would imagine they'll get it from your tax return

webberg
22nd May 2015, 16:32
Hi,

If the APN is incorrect, (eg the Loan amount is wrong) but you cannot provide bank statements for that year, and the provider is now closed so you cannot get any documentation from them, how can you prove to HMRC what the loan amount was. Where did they get the information from as their calculation for one year is a round figure so looks totally made up?

If you don't have the bank statements etc, how do you know it's wrong?

Look at your tax returns to see if numbers are there.
Look at a P11D that may have been provided and see if the number is there.
Ask for bank statements even if you have to pay a fee.
Ask HMRC where they got the number from.

Underbase
22nd May 2015, 20:11
If you don't have the bank statements etc, how do you know it's wrong?

Look at your tax returns to see if numbers are there.
Look at a P11D that may have been provided and see if the number is there.
Ask for bank statements even if you have to pay a fee.
Ask HMRC where they got the number from.

So this isn't my position as I have verified my load amounts etc. This is a close friend, they have an issue providing the bank statements because their partner was in a similar scheme at the same time and their case has not been picked up on and HMRC are almost out of time. The scheme was offshore and the person is an expat. As the benefit in kind for the interest free loan was under £2000 and at the time non-dom's didn't have to pay anything or fill out anything if the amount was under 2k, they didn't. All they have is the emails sent by the trust for each month, saying that the trustee's have decided to loan you X this month.

I guess printing out the emails, and giving their calculation and asking where HMRC got their figure from is the first step. The first year they have is correct, but the second isn't and it's strange that HMRC have an exact round number for that year, which is way out. I am wondering if they guestimated (I know it's not a real work) from the previous year's figure. If they have no proof of the number, or that there was a loan, can they even claim there is tax to be paid?

webberg
24th May 2015, 17:27
So this isn't my position as I have verified my load amounts etc. This is a close friend, they have an issue providing the bank statements because their partner was in a similar scheme at the same time and their case has not been picked up on and HMRC are almost out of time. The scheme was offshore and the person is an expat. As the benefit in kind for the interest free loan was under £2000 and at the time non-dom's didn't have to pay anything or fill out anything if the amount was under 2k, they didn't. All they have is the emails sent by the trust for each month, saying that the trustee's have decided to loan you X this month.

I guess printing out the emails, and giving their calculation and asking where HMRC got their figure from is the first step. The first year they have is correct, but the second isn't and it's strange that HMRC have an exact round number for that year, which is way out. I am wondering if they guestimated (I know it's not a real work) from the previous year's figure. If they have no proof of the number, or that there was a loan, can they even claim there is tax to be paid?

Perhaps you could ask the bank to supply a letter setting out the values and declaring that all other credits were salary etc?

HMRC can use estimates so long as they are "just and reasonable". They might point to similar cases where the loan is a certain multiple of the salary etc. That might convince a tribunal.

chr16v
26th May 2015, 20:48
i tolc HMRC i did not have bank statements going back 10 years and after speaking to the bank they said there wasnt even a paid service to retrieve statements this old (HSBC).
So i have most but not all old EBT award emails from my scheme and no other evidence to work with.

When i spoke to HMRC they said they simply used the figure submited on the p11d. Now i presume this would be true for most scheme users wouldnt it? and dare it say it, correct possibly?

So there is no ebt loan scoobydo mystery to be solved here for most users, surely.

NeverTheTwain
27th May 2015, 13:21
The EBT scheme I used many years only had the BIK figure on the P11D , there was no explicit mention of the loan amount. Other people who have asked for a settlement figure have been given a figure based on 4 * salary - which is actually pretty accurate for the loan amounts given out for my particular scheme.

Boobetty
7th June 2015, 19:52
I received a settlement calculations that contained some actual numbers (p11d-based, and accurate) but also some numbers based on a ratio of salary.

The idiotic thing was, given they had accurate numbers for some years but not others, that they didn't use the 'actual' ratio of loans to salary from 'known' years and apply that to the 'estimated' years. God no, instead they came up with a 5 X salary.

Of course I queried this and asked why not just apply the ratio they know rather than guess one. That was about four months ago. Zzzzzzzzzz.