PDA

View Full Version : Meja studies anyone?



zeitghost
18th June 2015, 08:03
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/university-no-longer-place-poor-110818184.html

For dear old Freako, this relates to the proposal by HMG to remove the maintenance grant from the poorest students.

Then again, a proper apprenticeship would be better.

Though, of course, since the demise of the Industry Training Boards under the Milk Snatcher, it's debatable if such a thing as a proper apprenticeship still exists.


University is no longer a place for the poor.

The Government's latest plan to phase out student grants is abhorrent, says Katie Morley

If the Government goes ahead with reported plans to remove university grants for Britain’s poorest students it will be making a terrible mistake.

Such a move would fly in the face of the Conservative party's most prominent message: that it will ensure those who work hard are rewarded.

On an individual level the implications of stripping this financial support from young people are grim.

Thousands of bright and talented students from modest backgrounds, having worked hard to get good A-levels, will suffer severe poverty if they choose to further their education. And many more will be deterred from going to university altogether.

Currently university grants provide students with just over £3,000 a year in non-repayable cash if their parents earn less than £25,000 a year. All students also have access to maintenance loans, but in reality these are far from adequate unless topped up by parental support.

The maximum maintenance loan is £5,740 (£8,010 in London), which, after paying rent, leaves students living on peanuts (one report last year put the figure at £11 a week). This places a huge burden on parents to help out. But millions can't afford to, which is why the government grants are so important. It's true that universities also hand out bursaries and scholarships, but they are few and far between. * Why your student loan could end up costing more than you thought * Martin Lewis: 10 tweaks I'd make to Britain * Student loans: the real cost could be £40,000 more than official estimates If ministers are prepared to remove this funding, it follows that they would be happy to see poorer students living at home, choosing shorter courses, or taking up apprenticeships instead.

For many young people (from all backgrounds) these compromises would probably prove quite sensible. Our universities are littered with poor value, time-wasting degree courses, designed to cater to the masses. Just 50pc of graduates are managing to get real graduate-level jobs five years after they’ve earned their degrees.

The initial excitement of getting a degree wears off fast for some

But to force people who can’t afford university to make these compromises while wealthier students are free to choose the path that suits them best is abhorrent and unjustifiable.

If the Government must save money then let it cut funding for poor quality degrees, not make life more difficult for students in less well-off segments of society.

Should ministers decide to abolish the grants, I worry that a growing number of bright youngsters will miss out on university all together, on the grounds that they believe that university is no longer a place for the poor.

SimonMac
18th June 2015, 08:10
I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.

University should be for the few, not the many, I wonder what the number os applications would be like if "real courses" (STEM etc) were free, subsidiesd by noddy courses (the arts, humanities, and social sciences etc)

eek
18th June 2015, 08:48
I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.

University should be for the few, not the many, I wonder what the number os applications would be like if "real courses" (STEM etc) were free, subsidiesd by noddy courses (the arts, humanities, and social sciences etc)

The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government missed out the (as its a great way of hiding Youth unemployment and the lack of options)...

As I've said many times for many people an apprenticeship (especially one at our mutual ex-clientco) would be far far better than going to Uni....

BrilloPad
18th June 2015, 08:50
If they are students they won't be bothered to vote. So government can do what they want.

VectraMan
18th June 2015, 09:05
I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.

University should be for the few, not the many, I wonder what the number os applications would be like if "real courses" (STEM etc) were free, subsidiesd by noddy courses (the arts, humanities, and social sciences etc)

Yes, though the few shouldn't be decided on the parents' ability to pay.

Perhaps it should go on A-level results. Get three As, and you get a free degree. Get the minimum possible to get entry into a university, and you have to be able to afford it. That's probably a bit fairer than the slightly snobby attitude of saying some subjects are worth it and some aren't.

SimonMac
18th June 2015, 09:07
The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government missed out the (as its a great way of hiding Youth unemployment and the lack of options)...

As I've said many times for many people an apprenticeship (especially one at our mutual ex-clientco) would be far far better than going to Uni....

That reminds me, what was this golden opportunity that stopped you going back there?

alluvial
18th June 2015, 09:59
Here's an idea. How about if entry requirements were made more rigorous and required the applicant to demonstrate a high level of academic achievement. This should reduce the numbers of entrants and enable the government to pay the students fees regardless of background. Then provide each student with a basic grant that whilst not a living wage can be topped up with part time work to allow a student to eat and rent basic accommodation whilst studying. Then we would have graduates that in large part are recognised as the best that our educational system can produce to the benefit of all our industries and research establishments.
Oh hang on a mo...

vetran
18th June 2015, 10:07
Here's an idea. How about if entry requirements were made more rigorous and required the applicant to demonstrate a high level of academic achievement. This should reduce the numbers of entrants and enable the government to pay the students fees regardless of background. Then provide each student with a basic grant that whilst not a living wage can be topped up with part time work to allow a student to eat and rent basic accommodation whilst studying. Then we would have graduates that in large part are recognised as the best that our educational system can produce to the benefit of all our industries and research establishments.
Oh hang on a mo...


I'm quite happy for the student to support themselves, if they can't pay their way through UNI then they won't pay their way through life.

I would also make the uni debt payable immediately on emigration.

Zero Liability
18th June 2015, 11:11
I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.

University should be for the few, not the many, I wonder what the number os applications would be like if "real courses" (STEM etc) were free, subsidiesd by noddy courses (the arts, humanities, and social sciences etc)

Or just stop subsidising one at the expense of the other altogether.

If anything, I think trying to get everyone through uni is to the detriment of the ablest and/or most willing to put the effort required in. Trying to socially engineer outcomes, rather than let the degree's usefulness in career progression, determine their supply just creates sectoral skill imbalances. Granted, this is less useful in an interventionist economy, where some industries and consequently the remuneration they offer are themselves subsidised, but it'd be a start. I think STEM courses and maybe those pertaining to some of the professions would naturally come on top in such an environment.

Universities are quite willing to subsidise the brightest of their own accord, as it affects their quality and reputation, but not when everyone can get a taxpayer subsidised student loan; for most people, like eek said, an apprenticeship that comes with a qualification is probably best.

Besides, there's a plethora of online and modular courses people can do these days to refine their knowledge/skills.

Personally, I'm now looking to specialise and convert to a STEM area unrelated to my original degree, because it will offer better career progression.

SunnyInHades
18th June 2015, 12:00
The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government

That plan has been financially very hard hitting for some as not all Uni's are not considered equal by certain employers. Some short-sighted/misguided employers say:

"Russell group universities - The list of 'proper' Universities which existed in 1985
All other so called universities are ex Polytechnics, technical colleges, further education colleges etc.
If that candidate didn't go to a Russell group University bin the application."

TykeMerc
18th June 2015, 12:23
I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.


I'm absolutely sure that I don't agree with the sentiment. People should only go to University if they are suitably academically inclined and skilled, the University system shouldn't be a temporary dumping ground for youth unemployment.

My eldest son is graduated worked a few years and starting his PHd this year. My younger two are both in apprenticeships and even though they could have gone to Uni neither wanted to as they had no courses that appealed.

minestrone
18th June 2015, 12:32
I don't know why everyone picks on Media Studies. My 5yr Mechanical BEng Hons was ultimately useless, I'm struggling to think of anyone I know other than Doctors and Nurses who followed through on a degree into a the career that they chose when they left school. Most of the teachers I know got such shitty ordinaries and thirds they had to get a conversation course.

unixman
18th June 2015, 12:33
We should probably ask ourselves how many physicists we need/will need in future, how many professional engineers, how many skilled apprentices, how many modern dance graduates and so on, and base policy on that. My own view (unresearched) is that we probably need more professional engineers, and fewer sociology based graduates. Pragmatism not snobbery.

minestrone
18th June 2015, 13:12
There are hardly any jobs for Engineering grads, and what jobs there are really are low level "I need water flow into this system, I'm going to look up a catalogue and chose the pump size" stuff. The days of Brunel, Watt, Rankine, Kelvin and Stevenson are over.

Dyson proclaims himself to be the best British Engineer now, have you ever seen professional cleaner use a Dyson? They use henries.

SimonMac
18th June 2015, 13:14
There are hardly any jobs for Engineering grads, and what jobs there are really are low level "I need water flow into this system, I'm going to look up a catalogue and chose the pump size" stuff. The days of Brunel, Watt, Rankine, Kelvin and Stevenson are over.

Dyson proclaims himself to be the best British Engineer now, have you ever seen professional cleaner use a Dyson? They use henries.

If you are paying £5.50 an hour, your not really gonna be throwing £300 at a dyson are you

NotAllThere
18th June 2015, 15:32
The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government ...The massive increase in university admissions began in 1989 - under a Conservative government. The introduction of student loans was the start of the process.

minestrone
18th June 2015, 16:06
If you are paying £5.50 an hour, your not really gonna be throwing £300 at a dyson are you

I wold think cleaners in most offices are charging 15-20 quid an hour, certainly domestic cleansers are charging 17 quid an hour If they are not going trough the books.

A henry is 100 quid, a dyson is 200.

They don't use dysons because dysons are shite. Housewives buy them, cleaners don't.

unixman
18th June 2015, 16:57
Dyson proclaims himself to be the best British Engineer now...

Proclaims himself to be the best engineer ? Surely not. I Googled and couldn't find any such claim.

eek
18th June 2015, 17:16
That plan has been financially very hard hitting for some as not all Uni's are not considered equal by certain employers. Some short-sighted/misguided employers say:

"Russell group universities - The list of 'proper' Universities which existed in 1985
All other so called universities are ex Polytechnics, technical colleges, further education colleges etc.
If that candidate didn't go to a Russell group University bin the application."

Given that I was in the wrong place I was at the launch of the Russell Group. There are a number of top tier always Unis who still aren't members of it....

eek
18th June 2015, 17:20
The massive increase in university admissions began in 1989 - under a Conservative government. The introduction of student loans was the start of the process.

Surprisingly it seems to have been before 1989 based on what I see in http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04252/SN04252.pdf

I doubt it was 1989 as I had very little problem getting into my Russell Group uni in 1990 and there wasn't much new accommodation being built then. The big rush to build started in my 3rd year...