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LisaContractorUmbrella
1st September 2015, 12:55
Still working on the ever expanding document that will be our response to the consultation on T&S (14000 words and counting!) and I could do with your help again. I have worked out that travel and subsistence costs have risen substantially over the last 7 years - 13% for fuel, 10% for accommodation and 24% for food but our figures show that, since 2012, rates have pretty much remained stagnant. I don't have figures for prior to 2012 available so I wondered if you'd be able to give me an idea of rate differences between now and 2008???

eek
1st September 2015, 12:58
Still working on the ever expanding document that will be our response to the consultation on T&S (14000 words and counting!) and I could do with your help again. I have worked out that travel and subsistence costs have risen substantially over the last 7 years - 13% for fuel, 10% for accommodation and 24% for food but our figures show that, since 2012, rates have pretty much remained stagnant. I don't have figures for prior to 2012 available so I wondered if you'd be able to give me an idea of rate differences between now and 2008???

I believe a typical c# developer has been on roughly £300-350 outside London since about 2002.. Rates haven't changed at all...

Scrag Meister
1st September 2015, 12:59
Currently at the mid way point of the high and low I have earned over the past 8 years, a spread of approx. 180pd.

Highs in my experience don't last long and get cut back, lows don't last long because I don't renew.

northernladuk
1st September 2015, 13:00
Currently at the mid way point of the high and low I have earned over the past 8 years.

Highs in my experience don't last long and get cut back, lows don't last long because I don't renew.

Scraggy!! How you diddling?

cojak
1st September 2015, 13:17
Currently at the mid way point of the high and low I have earned over the past 8 years, a spread of approx. 180pd.

Highs in my experience don't last long and get cut back, lows don't last long because I don't renew.

Yep, exactly my experience as well SM.

malvolio
1st September 2015, 13:55
My last gig paid precisely £16 a day more than my first one in 1996. A rough calculation shows that my average day rate has been around £50 a day above that original rate.

So no, on average I don't think average day rates have changed in the slightest over the years, and Banks, CLAS consultants and SAP-knowledge people apart (all paid more by around 20%, but that's the side-effect of closed shops), the industry average is pretty much what I've been getting.

However, the rise in permie salaries over that time has been pretty much constant; coders that used to get around £25k would now be on £45k pa.

LisaContractorUmbrella
1st September 2015, 14:25
Thanks guys - actual figures would be especially useful as I am comparing rates to costs - have worked out that hotel prices in London have risen about 30% between 2008-2015 and subsistence costs about 24%. Bet rates haven't gone up anywhere near that

LondonManc
1st September 2015, 15:23
Thanks guys - actual figures would be especially useful as I am comparing rates to costs - have worked out that hotel prices in London have risen about 30% between 2008-2015 and subsistence costs about 24%. Bet rates haven't gone up anywhere near that

Mine's varied because I've been taking gigs nationally but general going rate for my line of work in Greater Manchester area is £300-350/day and hasn't changed over that time. I think warchests, experience and getting into the negotiations of contracting properly help boost your rate but the rates themselves are no better as a general rule.

I know someone who was on £550 in London in 2008 and is again on £550 in London having had higher and lower rates.

tarbera
1st September 2015, 15:35
After the rate cuts, Lloydes and RBS for example people who worked for me for £450 a day in 2011 are now on £296 !!! That have remained at the banks

eek
1st September 2015, 15:44
After the rate cuts, Lloydes and RBS for example people who worked for me for £450 a day in 2011 are now on £296 !!! That have remained at the banks

If you are accepting a rate cut of 34% you really aren't valuing your skills or your skills really aren't that great.

SueEllen
1st September 2015, 17:34
If you are accepting a rate cut of 34% you really aren't valuing your skills or your skills really aren't that great.

Probably the former.

MercladUK
1st September 2015, 18:16
1st role back in 1999 was £400 per day
Last few roles have been between £400 - £515

suityou01
1st September 2015, 21:32
First gig in 2007 was 400 pd.

Last gig was 450 pd.

Have had 500 pd.

NickNick
2nd September 2015, 11:58
Approx rates

2005 - 350
2007 - 400
2008 - 350
2009 - 450
2011 - 450
2013 - 400
2015 - 450

ITPRO2
4th September 2015, 18:28
2010/2011 - 50/h
2012 - 60/h
2013 - 70/h
2014 - 95/h
2015 - 86/h

ShandyDrinker
4th September 2015, 20:50
I believe a typical c# developer has been on roughly £300-350 outside London since about 2002.. Rates haven't changed at all...

Depends where outside of London you are. On average I'd agree with you although I've had day rates ranging from £350-£450 for North West (2008-2012), €400-€500 for Ireland (2011-13), £330-£450 for South West (2010-2015) and £375-£550 in London (2010-2015).


Thanks guys - actual figures would be especially useful as I am comparing rates to costs - have worked out that hotel prices in London have risen about 30% between 2008-2015 and subsistence costs about 24%. Bet rates haven't gone up anywhere near that

You only have to look at itjobswatch to see what has been happening to C# rates over the years - see C# Contracts, Contractor Rates for C# Skills (http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/uk/csharp.do).

Because of this you have to be careful how you frame the argument as for example, C# rates being stagnant or declining has more to do with supply and demand and the commoditisation of this particular skillset.

If you had been working on Java and moved into Scala you would probably only have seen rates increase over this period - see Scala Contracts, Contractor Rates for Scala Skills (http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/uk/scala.do).

Rates/demand aside, costs have definitely increased substantially in the time I've been contracting since 2008. I'd now have to think seriously if the contract required regular overnight accommodation.

GB9
4th September 2015, 21:54
£400 when I started in 2000, with the highest being £700.

At one point during the 'bust' in 2009 I was getting paid £5 / day more than in 2000.

TheCyclingProgrammer
5th September 2015, 10:12
I've almost doubled my rate since I started my business 6 years ago. Started off on around £300-400/day. My rate is now set at £600 although I agreed a £575 rate for a longer term project this year.

Whilst I almost never take on full time on-site work I'm considering upping my on-site rate to £625 to cover my additional travel costs as it now costs me £31 for a return ticket to London vs the £8 or so it used to cost me before I moved to Colchester.

suityou01
5th September 2015, 12:42
I've almost doubled my rate since I started my business 6 years ago. Started off on around £300-400/day. My rate is now set at £600 although I agreed a £575 rate for a longer term project this year.

Whilst I almost never take on full time on-site work I'm considering upping my on-site rate to £625 to cover my additional travel costs as it now costs me £31 for a return ticket to London vs the £8 or so it used to cost me before I moved to Colchester.

Not bad for a programmer, cycling or otherwise. Which programming language should I be boning up on to get these lofty rates?

TheCyclingProgrammer
5th September 2015, 22:50
Not bad for a programmer, cycling or otherwise. Which programming language should I be boning up on to get these lofty rates?

These days, mostly iOS work.

fool
6th September 2015, 10:59
I wasn't contracting in 2008 but:-

Perm:
Company A: 2007-2009: 13k to 24k p/a
Company B: 2009-2012: 25k to 27k p/a
Company C: 2012: 30k p/a

Contract:
Company A 2013 (3 MONTH): 220 p/d
Company B 2013 (5 MONTH): 320 p/d
Company C 2014 (4 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company D 2014 (3 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company E 2014 (3 MONTH): 500 p/d
Company F 2015 (3 MONTH): 650 p/d
Company F 2015 (6 MONTH): 700 p/d

I have an offer to extend and an alternative at £800 p/d. I'd like to say my rates keep rising because I'm better than the competition ( I think I'm better, they think they're better) but the truth is the reason I keep getting rates rises is mostly because I lie to recruiters about how much I'm currently on. Funnily enough, they always come back with they can only offer me the same as what I'm on. :)

stek
6th September 2015, 11:21
I wasn't contracting in 2008 but:-

Perm:
Company A: 2007-2009: 13k to 24k p/a
Company B: 2009-2012: 25k to 27k p/a
Company C: 2012: 30k p/a

Contract:
Company A 2013 (3 MONTH): 220 p/d
Company B 2013 (5 MONTH): 320 p/d
Company C 2014 (4 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company D 2014 (3 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company E 2014 (3 MONTH): 500 p/d
Company F 2015 (3 MONTH): 650 p/d
Company F 2015 (6 MONTH): 700 p/d

I have an offer to extend and an alternative at £800 p/d. I'd like to say my rates keep rising because I'm better than the competition ( I think I'm better, they think they're better) but the truth is the reason I keep getting rates rises is mostly because I lie to recruiters about how much I'm currently on. Funnily enough, they always come back with they can only offer me the same as what I'm on. :)

Yeah. right...

fool
6th September 2015, 12:53
Yeah. right...

Which part are you unconvinced with?

malvolio
6th September 2015, 13:41
Which part are you unconvinced with?
All of it. I get high end rates, they have stayed much the same for the last 15 years. So either someone has been continually reskilling or becoming more expert in a niche skillset. That level of rate change over a two year period encompassing eight roles may be right ( :rollin: ) but is hardly representative or helpful.

jamesbrown
6th September 2015, 14:07
All of it. I get high end rates, they have stayed much the same for the last 15 years. So either someone has been continually reskilling or becoming more expert in a niche skillset. That level of rate change over a two year period encompassing eight roles may be right ( :rollin: ) but is hardly representative or helpful.

Agreed. It would be rather childish to provide false information, and it probably isn't false, but it isn't representative. This is one reason I haven't responded, as my rates are quite variable depending on how much I like the project, among other things. Anecdotally, I would say that rates are quite robust and improving for specialists in science and engineering, but they've been flat lining or worsening for more typical skillsets AFAIK.

Incidentally, does IPSE have an archive of the benchmarking or other surveys that might be useful here? I can only find the benchmarking survey from 2012. It has some useful information about rates for a couple of years, but not the longer time-series that the OP is looking for (IIRC the OP is an IPSE member, so should have access to these documents, but it isn't easy to locate them via the new website, perhaps because they have the old PCG branding...).

fool
6th September 2015, 14:33
All of it. I get high end rates, they have stayed much the same for the last 15 years. So either someone has been continually reskilling or becoming more expert in a niche skillset. That level of rate change over a two year period encompassing eight roles may be right ( :rollin: ) but is hardly representative or helpful.

It depends who we're trying to help. It doesn't help prove the OPs point, but if she doesn't present any outliers, her numbers probably won't be taken seriously, so it might be helpful to her, despite not being on message.

That's not why I posted it though. I'm going to struggle getting further rate bumps because those in the middle of the road fail to negotiate with the agents. If enough people optimise for that then rates will rise.


Agreed. It would be rather childish to provide false information, and it probably isn't false, but it isn't representative. This is one reason I haven't responded, as my rates are quite variable depending on how much I like the project, among other things. Anecdotally, I would say that rates are quite robust and improving for specialists in science and engineering, but they've been flat lining or worsening for more typical skillsets AFAIK.

I saw the thread days ago and didn't post initially because of this. Now I actually think it's unhelpful because it makes the data look fabriated. In addition, I think it's helpful for others to know that high rates do exist.

For what it's worth, I'm a pretty respectable Developer & Sysadmin. I'm 30 with ~8 years experience. Other than being able to do both jobs, I don't have anything particularly niche on my CV.

BoredBloke
7th September 2015, 07:17
When I work away I tend to rack up expenses to the tune of about £2k a month. Meaning if I can't expense that then I'd have to earn and draw £24k a year to pay the bills just to allow me to work. So obviously given the implications on my personal tax thresholds that isn't going to happen. So for me it will have to be commutable only work. In the North West rates have not moved from what I can see. Generally my roles still get pitched around the 300 a day mark which is what I was working for t BT in Leeds back in 2010. In London that's 450 to 550. Nothing like having your flexibility curtailed by your own government!

BoredBloke
7th September 2015, 13:01
I wasn't contracting in 2008 but:-

Perm:
Company A: 2007-2009: 13k to 24k p/a
Company B: 2009-2012: 25k to 27k p/a
Company C: 2012: 30k p/a

Contract:
Company A 2013 (3 MONTH): 220 p/d
Company B 2013 (5 MONTH): 320 p/d
Company C 2014 (4 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company D 2014 (3 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company E 2014 (3 MONTH): 500 p/d
Company F 2015 (3 MONTH): 650 p/d
Company F 2015 (6 MONTH): 700 p/d

I have an offer to extend and an alternative at £800 p/d. I'd like to say my rates keep rising because I'm better than the competition ( I think I'm better, they think they're better) but the truth is the reason I keep getting rates rises is mostly because I lie to recruiters about how much I'm currently on. Funnily enough, they always come back with they can only offer me the same as what I'm on. :)

What role goes from 220 to 700 a day in 2 and a bit years based on a total of 8 years experience?

fool
7th September 2015, 13:36
What role goes from 220 to 700 a day in 2 and a bit years based on a total of 8 years experience?

DevOps. Last response as this is a total thread derail.

5 years working as developer / ops for hosting industry
9 Months Dev & Ops digital agencies
1 year dev in card industry
1/2 year ops startup & digital agency
9 Months Ops Government

But again, the point was that I never got more because I didn't know how to ask for it and take myself seriously.

stek
7th September 2015, 13:36
What role goes from 220 to 700 a day in 2 and a bit years based on a total of 8 years experience?

Number one rule of CUK club, do not balloon about rates....

TheCyclingProgrammer
7th September 2015, 15:22
I do think that depending on your particular skill and demand there is an opportunity to get higher rates by simply asking for them.

I didn't know what rate to ask for when I left my permie job so starting around £300-400 seemed about right. Over time I've simply increased my rate a) because I can and b) because I think my experience makes me worth the higher rate.

I do have the luxury of having almost all of my clients approach me (either via my website or leads from other developers) and I've only ever done two projects through an agency in the 6 years I've been running my business, one of which was only because I wasn't on my client's preferred supplier list. Most of my clients aren't big enough to have PSLs though.

Upping my rate hasn't reduced the amount of work I get, but I'd say it has lead to better contracts overall. It also gives me a bit of room to negotiate on rate although I'm pretty firm on it. I did experiment with advertising my rate on my website for a while with mixed results - I got fewer enquiries but the ones I did get tended to be higher quality leads. Fewer "I've got an idea for a great new social networking app but I've only got £10k to spend" type emails. I've reverted to not publishing my rate as I prefer to discuss rates and billing after initial contact now.

Now I'm living a 1 hour train journey away from central London, I'm also trying out charging a £25/day premium on my standard rate for on-site work. It doesn't completely cover my travel and subsistence costs but it roughly covers the additional cost since I moved outside of the M25. I work from home about 80% of the time anyway and I'm hoping it will result in fewer wasted days spent on-site sitting at a desk doing the same job I could be doing from home without the pointless 2 hour commute and extra expense.

In short, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fool's claims as bollocks, I think he/she might just be fortunate enough to work in a sector or have a skill set that is in high demand and was therefore able to chance asking for a higher rate and getting it. Obviously I can't comment on the wider IT contracting market as I only work in a small area of it and I'm not a bum on seat type of contractor doing gigs for big businesses/banks etc. where the market is probably different to mine.

BoredBloke
7th September 2015, 15:38
I do think that depending on your particular skill and demand there is an opportunity to get higher rates by simply asking for them.

I didn't know what rate to ask for when I left my permie job so starting around £300-400 seemed about right. Over time I've simply increased my rate a) because I can and b) because I think my experience makes me worth the higher rate.

I do have the luxury of having almost all of my clients approach me (either via my website or leads from other developers) and I've only ever done two projects through an agency in the 6 years I've been running my business, one of which was only because I wasn't on my client's preferred supplier list. Most of my clients aren't big enough to have PSLs though.

Upping my rate hasn't reduced the amount of work I get, but I'd say it has lead to better contracts overall. It also gives me a bit of room to negotiate on rate although I'm pretty firm on it. I did experiment with advertising my rate on my website for a while with mixed results - I got fewer enquiries but the ones I did get tended to be higher quality leads. Fewer "I've got an idea for a great new social networking app but I've only got £10k to spend" type emails. I've reverted to not publishing my rate as I prefer to discuss rates and billing after initial contact now.

Now I'm living a 1 hour train journey away from central London, I'm also trying out charging a £25/day premium on my standard rate for on-site work. It doesn't completely cover my travel and subsistence costs but it roughly covers the additional cost since I moved outside of the M25. I work from home about 80% of the time anyway and I'm hoping it will result in fewer wasted days spent on-site sitting at a desk doing the same job I could be doing from home without the pointless 2 hour commute and extra expense.

In short, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fool's claims as bollocks, I think he/she might just be fortunate enough to work in a sector or have a skill set that is in high demand and was therefore able to chance asking for a higher rate and getting it. Obviously I can't comment on the wider IT contracting market as I only work in a small area of it and I'm not a bum on seat type of contractor doing gigs for big businesses/banks etc. where the market is probably different to mine.

FWIW I wasn't dismissing it I just wondered what it was. It true contractor style I say good on him. He's obviously found a market for his skills and people who are prepared to pay for them.

Danglekt
9th September 2015, 11:35
I managed to more than double my day rate in the space of 2 gigs via contract extensions. The scope of the work I was doing was shifting, and taking on more responsibility. I was basically under selling myself at first, my value was noticed and when it came to extension time I set my stall out.

I don't think i'd do it again like that, but thats because I would make sure my starting position was better!

Forgotmylogin
9th September 2015, 12:03
I managed to more than double my day rate in the space of 2 gigs via contract extensions. The scope of the work I was doing was shifting, and taking on more responsibility. I was basically under selling myself at first, my value was noticed and when it came to extension time I set my stall out.

I don't think i'd do it again like that, but thats because I would make sure my starting position was better!

So you were a disguised permie? I'm guessing you declared yourself inside IR35 for those gigs?

Danglekt
10th September 2015, 15:24
Nope, the scope of the gig changed, I was originally in to develop project plans and the governance framework for a client, at the end of the gig when I'd delivered all the contracted objectives they realised they needed additional expertise to actually programme manage the delivery of the plan that I'd developed.

I rescoped the support my company was providing, upping my day rate in the process to reflect the more complex contracted support they needed, and they chose for the sake of time to work with my company.

There was no control, I worked from home when I liked, went about what needed to be done as I saw fit and subbed in other people for me on a number of occasions - so no - not inside IR35.

When I used the phrase responsibility increasing, I mean I was supporting a broader portfolio to deliver against, not embedded seniority.

AnotherGuy
6th October 2015, 11:51
It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

LandRover
6th October 2015, 12:08
It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

Good old globalisation, outsourcing, inshoring and mass immigration took care of that!

gables
6th October 2015, 12:09
It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

Hmm, yes and no I'd say, due to different market conditions and there's been a bit of a recession in between. But equally I don't think permie salaries are really much better, I was contracting in a firm in 1994 where the developers were grossing around 32k, I doubt it's much more than that now.

The future will be okay :happy

cojak
6th October 2015, 12:29
It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

Not promising?? A lot of experienced contractors around here are thinking about moving into permiedom.

So thanks a lot for dumping those good paying permie jobs to let us lot jump into them. [emoji3]

dynamicsaxcontractor
6th October 2015, 15:24
Not promising?? A lot of experienced contractors around here are thinking about moving into permiedom.

So thanks a lot for dumping those good paying permie jobs to let us lot jump into them. [emoji3]
Not promising must be the understatement of the year. Its potentially only 6 months left and then the party is over. Oh well, it was fun as long as it lasted.