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View Full Version : NHS issues with 'rip off' agencies and expensive agency workers



northernladuk
12th October 2015, 11:13
It was mentioned ad infinitum on Friday when the news of the NHS's deficit came out. Numbers like 30% of the deficit is down to agency workers were being banded about with counter claims to this and so on....

But either way... Anyone wondering if this might have some impact on the new legislation hitting us. If the Govt have a desire to clamp down on these people costing the NHS will that feed the desire to push the legislation through?

Admittedly none of these should actually affect the cost to the client directly it could push more of the agency works permanent and fill the roles?

... or just a red herring?

gables
12th October 2015, 11:24
The bit I picked up on was the 'bank' nurses costing a lot, to reduce that they just need to make more permanent nursing jobs available, probably along with a better pay, because surely a main reason to use 'bank' nurses is because there aren't enough permies due to cost cutting?

TykeMerc
12th October 2015, 11:36
I'm not surprised that they didn't even mention that even though the headline of "NHS in worst financial straits for a generation" has a lovely ring, a generation ago (25 years) the NHS didn't have a whole array of Trusts, each with their expensive corporate management structures.
I'd be very interested to see credible audited figures that compared the budget spend on management and actual healthcare core services.

It's no mystery that headcount poker has been played by the Trusts for years with medical staff, especially Nurses taken off the books and hired via agencies, not exactly a shock that the cost reality rather than the accountants book-keepers trickery has bitten.

I doubt that the NHS accountancy farce will have any real bearing on the changes we're concerned about, but that could always change.

LondonManc
12th October 2015, 12:03
It was mentioned ad infinitum on Friday when the news of the NHS's deficit came out. Numbers like 30% of the deficit is down to agency workers were being banded about with counter claims to this and so on....

But either way... Anyone wondering if this might have some impact on the new legislation hitting us. If the Govt have a desire to clamp down on these people costing the NHS will that feed the desire to push the legislation through?

Admittedly none of these should actually affect the cost to the client directly it could push more of the agency works permanent and fill the roles?

... or just a red herring?

Red herring / convenient excuse. Could be either or both.

The fact that the NHS want to pay 5/7 max of "normal" day rate is an indication of the quality of contractors who will work for them.

I was contacted about a role in Yorkshire. Had a chat, initially seemed about 45 minutes drive - totally acceptable. Turned out it was out the far end of the place they claimed but I told him my rate; £100pd more than he had quoted. He said he'd put me forward anyway to see what the client thought and he did. I got contacted and got an interview. Interview went well enough, got a call the following day along the lines of:
"What's your day rate again?" "£xxx"
"What's the lowest you'd take?" "£xxx"
Now, if they're looking at paying £xxx - 100 then they aren't going to get the calibre of person that they need to do the job. As Red Adair said, if you think professionals are expensive, wait until you hire an amateur, which is the problem that the NHS face.

LisaContractorUmbrella
12th October 2015, 12:28
Red herring definitely. They need the number of staff that they need - agency workers will attract costs that permies don't and vice versa - the only real cost comparison would be average annual spend per head year on year

Danglekt
12th October 2015, 13:29
very convenient side step of the issues.

northernladuk
12th October 2015, 13:47
Red herring / convenient excuse. Could be either or both.

The fact that the NHS want to pay 5/7 max of "normal" day rate is an indication of the quality of contractors who will work for them.

I was contacted about a role in Yorkshire. Had a chat, initially seemed about 45 minutes drive - totally acceptable. Turned out it was out the far end of the place they claimed but I told him my rate; £100pd more than he had quoted. He said he'd put me forward anyway to see what the client thought and he did. I got contacted and got an interview. Interview went well enough, got a call the following day along the lines of:
"What's your day rate again?" "£xxx"
"What's the lowest you'd take?" "£xxx"
Now, if they're looking at paying £xxx - 100 then they aren't going to get the calibre of person that they need to do the job. As Red Adair said, if you think professionals are expensive, wait until you hire an amateur, which is the problem that the NHS face.

I think they were talking about frontline staff and agency nurses not the IT lot.

Danglekt
12th October 2015, 13:51
they threw in a line about "rip off consultancies" too.

Again, complete red herring.

LondonManc
12th October 2015, 16:11
I think they were talking about frontline staff and agency nurses not the IT lot.

Are you sure? "Rip off agencies"? :D

Zero Liability
12th October 2015, 16:23
Red herring definitely. They need the number of staff that they need - agency workers will attract costs that permies don't and vice versa - the only real cost comparison would be average annual spend per head year on year

It's part and parcel of this whole "demonise the rich" class warfare thing that even outfits like The Telegraph are now engaged in, i.e. shallow attempts to drum up hostility towards those helping to cope with the long term planning/budgeting issues plaguing the NHS, because it "offends" the authors' delicate journalistic sensibilities and likely those of their intended audiences too.

PurpleGorilla
14th October 2015, 10:39
Generally a - no sick, holiday, pension, grievance, training, paternity, notice period etc. Gets the great unwashed to STFU when they bang the rich contractor line...

LisaContractorUmbrella
15th October 2015, 07:16
It's part and parcel of this whole "demonise the rich" class warfare thing that even outfits like The Telegraph are now engaged in, i.e. shallow attempts to drum up hostility towards those helping to cope with the long term planning/budgeting issues plaguing the NHS, because it "offends" the authors' delicate journalistic sensibilities and likely those of their intended audiences too.

Couldn't agree more - success used to be applauded in this country but now it's all about 'fairness' and 'equality' - well use of the words anyway :eyes

PurpleGorilla
15th October 2015, 09:06
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/1984_Social_Classes_alt.svg/2000px-1984_Social_Classes_alt.svg.png

SpontaneousOrder
16th October 2015, 10:31
Couldn't agree more - success used to be applauded in this country but now it's all about 'fairness' and 'equality' - well use of the words anyway :eyes

Equality is unfair. That's why it'll never stick. We'll just beat ourselves up trying to achieve that contradictory state until we grow up a bit.


It took us just one meeting to discover that we had become beggars – rotten, whining, sniveling beggars, all of us, because no man could claim his pay as his rightful earning, he had no rights and no earnings, his work didn’t belong to him, it belonged to ‘the family’, and they owed him nothing in return, and the only claim he had on them was his ‘need’ – so he had to beg in public for relief from his needs, like any lousy moocher, listing all his troubles and miseries, down to his patched drawers and his wife’s head colds, hoping that ‘the family’ would throw him the alms. He had to claim miseries, because it’s miseries, not work, that had become the coin of the realm – so it turned into a contest between six thousand panhandlers, each claiming that his need was worse than his brother’s. How else could it be done? Do you care to guess what happened, what sort of men kept quiet, feeling shame, and what sort got away with the jackpot?

LisaContractorUmbrella
19th October 2015, 06:43
“If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders - What would you tell him?"

I…don't know. What…could he do? What would you tell him?"

To shrug.”

SpontaneousOrder
20th October 2015, 22:44
“If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders - What would you tell him?"

I…don't know. What…could he do? What would you tell him?"

To shrug.”

I see it coming. With the producers feeling some misconceived obligation to sponsor the more numerous less productive/net consumers to breed more consumers, without economic concern, there will come a point where those producers just decide it isn't worth it anymore.

Regression at worst, stagnation at best. Progress unlikely.

Yonmons
21st October 2015, 05:57
I could write a book on the NHS and whats wrong with it (from a contractors point of view in I.T.)

I have just done 2 years as a migration engineer for a couple of large southern based trust, and worked for (in a total of ) 3 Hospital Trust. The land where nothing gets done anytime soon, where contractors do a LOT of the work, whilst permies shoot the breeze, where since they got rid of all the contractors NOTHING gets done. Managers have endless meetings about meetings, then more meetings about errrr meetings. Project managers climb the slippery pole and only survive as PM`s because they have little ability and would find it difficult to survive in the real world. Oh and one of the best blame cultures I have experienced. There is more than a lot wrong, meanwhile the clinical staff get less and less, and are expected to perform more and more. TBH I am glad to be out of it. Would I work in it as a permie ? NOT A CHANCE !

MrMarkyMark
23rd October 2015, 14:02
I could write a book on the NHS and whats wrong with it (from a contractors point of view in I.T.)

I have just done 2 years as a migration engineer for a couple of large southern based trust, and worked for (in a total of ) 3 Hospital Trust. The land where nothing gets done anytime soon, where contractors do a LOT of the work, whilst permies shoot the breeze, where since they got rid of all the contractors NOTHING gets done. Managers have endless meetings about meetings, then more meetings about errrr meetings. Project managers climb the slippery pole and only survive as PM`s because they have little ability and would find it difficult to survive in the real world. Oh and one of the best blame cultures I have experienced. There is more than a lot wrong, meanwhile the clinical staff get less and less, and are expected to perform more and more. TBH I am glad to be out of it. Would I work in it as a permie ? NOT A CHANCE !

Plenty like that in the private sector, too.

psychocandy
28th October 2015, 15:28
My Mrs is a nurse and the use of bank/agency is widespread. Why? Because they don't employ enough nurses to start with so as soon as someone goes sick they're screwed. Also, sometimes things are so badly managed nurses think stuff it Im pulling a sickie.

Unfortunately, if you're a nurse who takes advantage of agency work the general consensus is you're screwing the NHS funds. There are a lot of people out there who seem to think that you should do it for free I'm sure. But they'd be the first to moan if they can't have an op because the trust havent got staff to cover.

gables
28th October 2015, 15:48
My Mrs is a nurse and the use of bank/agency is widespread. Why? Because they don't employ enough nurses to start with so as soon as someone goes sick they're screwed. Also, sometimes things are so badly managed nurses think stuff it Im pulling a sickie.

Unfortunately, if you're a nurse who takes advantage of agency work the general consensus is you're screwing the NHS funds. There are a lot of people out there who seem to think that you should do it for free I'm sure. But they'd be the first to moan if they can't have an op because the trust havent got staff to cover.

I already said that :laugh

MrMarkyMark
28th October 2015, 15:51
I already said that :laugh

I was going to say that was psychos best post for a while :rolleyes:

gables
28th October 2015, 15:56
I was going to say that was psychos best post for a while :rolleyes:

oops :smokin

Still it's an encouraging sign from PC :-)

LondonManc
28th October 2015, 16:08
just need a nurse to jump ship the day before his big op - it's her professional right after all :)

MrMarkyMark
28th October 2015, 16:10
oops

:laugh


just need a nurse to jump ship the day before his big op - it's her professional right after all :)

Obviously, whether its a big op, or not, depends on the size of his appendage :smokin

psychocandy
28th October 2015, 16:16
just need a nurse to jump ship the day before his big op - it's her professional right after all :)

Most nursing assignments are short term (like for one shift etc) rather than months like this so not relevant. A lot of the time the NHS employer will phone agency to ask for nurse later that day or next day. Often its caused by illness or surprisingly holidays when there are just not enough staff.

Point being - people will still moan that it costs a lot of money but, newsflash, this sort of availability costs money.

But then they'd also be the first to moan if they got told, sorry we've cancelled your op, we dont have enough of a budget to cover this sickness in perm staff, and we know you've got an issue with wasting money on agency so we know you'd want us to do this. Yeh right.

northernladuk
28th October 2015, 17:00
I was going to say that was psychos best post for a while :rolleyes:

If he stays off the topic of contracting he can actually make some sense sometimes.

psychocandy
29th October 2015, 10:59
If he stays off the topic of contracting he can actually make some sense sometimes.

Aw I'm getting a bit of a warm and fuzzy feeling now :hug:

SueEllen
31st October 2015, 11:05
Does she get a pension and sick pay?

One of my sister-in-laws has had to take early medical retirement due to injury from the job, and another was of sick for 2 months. The sickness was due to failures in primary care.

Actuary
31st October 2015, 11:41
Does she get a pension and sick pay?

One of my sister-in-laws has had to take early medical retirement due to injury from the job, and another was of sick for 2 months. The sickness was due to failures in primary care.

Only entitled to statutory sick/maternity pay, but have the same final salary pension scheme as permanent staff (accruals are pro-rated If you work less than 37 hours per week).

It works well in our situation, as I have to move a lot for new roles so she can just join the bank in whatever area we move to and doesn't have to bother with interviews for permanent jobs.

SueEllen
31st October 2015, 20:54
Only entitled to statutory sick/maternity pay, but have the same final salary pension scheme as permanent staff (accruals are pro-rated If you work less than 37 hours per week).

It works well in our situation, as I have to move a lot for new roles so she can just join the bank in whatever area we move to and doesn't have to bother with interviews for permanent jobs.

With the decrease in stress and as long as you have a partner who earns a decent amount, then they are asking for people not to go permanent.

Then again I've heard stories of permanent NHS nursing staff, due to the lack of nursing staff, telling the managers that I can't go into work with problems ranging from real family problems, being really ill and stress related conditions. Anything else is stamped on. This means if you have a sick child, even if the child is in hospital, the parent has to swap shifts.