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rl4engc
22nd October 2015, 09:37
Currently running an ancient Dell Precision P690 tower, but it's getting a bit long in the tooth now though it is a reliable old beast. I want to upgrade to something with later CPU's, was looking at the current Dell T620 etc. but they start getting a bit pricey, which I can't really justify for what I use it for (24/7 torrenting, media server (not transcoding), casual gaming). Any ideas?

Requirements would be something like:

- Support up to 8 3.5" SATAs (as I currently have 1x2.5" SSD System drive, 6x3.5" storage drives, not RAIDed
- not a blade server (bit too noisy)
- Max memory say 64Gb+

Or I'd consider a big tower desktop if there's one that can take the drives (I'm not adverse to just slinging them in if there's not enough racks, as long as it has the connectors)

Any ideas from /gen/ ? :)

SimonMac
22nd October 2015, 09:46
Currently running an ancient Dell Precision P690 tower, but it's getting a bit long in the tooth now though it is a reliable old beast. I want to upgrade to something with later CPU's, was looking at the current Dell T620 etc. but they start getting a bit pricey, which I can't really justify for what I use it for (24/7 torrenting, media server (not transcoding), casual gaming). Any ideas?

Requirements would be something like:

- Support up to 8 3.5" SATAs (as I currently have 1x2.5" SSD System drive, 6x3.5" storage drives, not RAIDed
- not a blade server (bit too noisy)
- Max memory say 64Gb+

Or I'd consider a big tower desktop if there's one that can take the drives (I'm not adverse to just slinging them in if there's not enough racks, as long as it has the connectors)

Any ideas from /gen/ ? :)

Looking at your requirements you are massively over specced, you mention gaming but if you are running a server I assume you have a Server OS so that would rule out gaming.

I have a Late 2012 Mac Mini (2.5GHz) with 16GB Ram and a WD DL4100 NAS (4 x 4TB HDD), I havea few Virtual Machines running on the Mac Mini to handle Firewall/Web Proxy, the Mac Mini with Sonarr (https://sonarr.tv/) handles any TV shows that are missing on the NAS with iTunes running on the Mac Mini using the NAS as storage, Mac Mini also has OSX Server installed to handle a VPN so any device I have can connect home while I am working away. NAS has TimeMachine on it backing all my machines up while on the LAN (trying to play around with OpenVPN for a bridged VPN to allow backups while working away)

(It helps I am a massive Apple Fanboi as everything just works together)

VectraMan
22nd October 2015, 09:58
Can I have your old one? I have a Dell 390 Core 2 Duo with 4MB that I use for all that, and it is getting a bit slow.

MicrosoftBob
22nd October 2015, 10:00
Look around for HP microserver deals, a few times a year they do cash back offers that makes them very cheap

They normally need extra memory, and more storage but just fit your own

vetran
22nd October 2015, 10:15
could I suggest an HP microserver or similar (even a RPI2) you can add an external sata for extra drives that uses little juice and does all the server stuff and a separate turbo nutter desktop for gaming? Or just use a NAS for the 247 stuff. I have a Stora and D-link 320l nas that can do everything except gaming (D-link has the ability to load apps) and they use 10-40watts.


http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=61456.0


other NAS's have apps as well but I found D-link best price (£50 bare) / performance.

http://www.dlink.com/uk/en/home-solutions/share/network-attached-storage/dns-340l-sharecenter-4-bay-cloud-network-storage-enclosure

£120.

You can lock it in an enclosure and pop on a cheap UPS. Or buy two and pop one in the shed (I have one in NODE 0 and one in the garden office I will copy between the two).

if you do it all in one it seems you are trying to make a bicycle fly.

rl4engc
22nd October 2015, 10:15
@SimonMac Yep although it's a server it's not doing much serving, this one is running Windows 7 Ultimate so I'd probably upgrade to Win 8, hopefully there's a slimmed down version out there without all the crap.

@VectraMan I'll probably just stick it on Ebay for collection only, unless I have a box and packing big enough by then. I think I paid £120 or £220 or something about 4 years ago so it'll probably go for < 100. I like the fact 16Gb of memory costs about £50. :glasses

@MicrosoftBob Yep I saw some deals on hukd, the only thing that puts me off is the "Micro"; it needs to be (are the terms Midi-Tower or Full-Tower still used?) to fit my existing drives in.

That did get me thinking though, why are computers in general so f00king big, there's no need for it. As far as I can see the limiting factors are the mechanical hard drives and physical connectors, if the drives could be scaled down to the size of a credit card, everything else (i.e. electronics) could be on tiny packages. You could get the equivalent of a big 4U rack mount in a box about the size of a games console I reckon.

vetran
22nd October 2015, 10:51
That did get me thinking though, why are computers in general so f00king big, there's no need for it. As far as I can see the limiting factors are the mechanical hard drives and physical connectors, if the drives could be scaled down to the size of a credit card, everything else (i.e. electronics) could be on tiny packages. You could get the equivalent of a big 4U rack mount in a box about the size of a games console I reckon.

Once SSD overtakes spinning rust for price per gb and max size I'm sure that will happen.

sal
22nd October 2015, 11:06
Mixing a server and gaming desktop doesn't really work that well, been there, done that. One of the main set back you will face is the PSU which for servers is sized as low as possible to do the job. Meaning that in most cases it can't power mid-high end GPU. You can go the DYI way (as i did) and make your own spec. At some point you will realise that you don't want a 500W idle monstrosity running 24/7 only to act as a media streamer/file share/torrent client, so i ended up getting the HP Gen8 Microserver for the 24/7 bit. Cheap as chips for £99 after cashback, plus another £100ish for SSD, SD card and some RAM.

You can go with the bigger brother ML10 for even less £90 after cashback:
HP Tower Servers 814483-031 | Servers Plus (http://www.serversplus.com/servers/tower_servers/hp_tower_servers/814483-031)

They are baby servers, that i wouldn't recommend for business use but well suited for home work. Any serious server with HW RAID, high end CPU and large number of disk bays will be way to noisy for home use, even if you ignore the price premium.

Only 4 3.5" Drive bays, but you can use the 2 5.25" with brackets or if you insist on having optical drive something like this:

Icy Dock MB343SP FLEX-FIT Trio 3.5" to 5.25" Front Bay Conversion Kit with Additional 2 x 2.5" HDD/S - 4711132869354 - Scan.co.uk (http://www.scan.co.uk/products/icy-dock-mb343sp-flex-fit-trio-35-to-525-front-bay-conversion-kit-with-additional-2-x-25-hdd-ssd-bay)

Or just keep 2 HHDs for the separate gaming desktop.

Small size disk drives already exist - they are called M.2 SSD
The 4U with the size of a console is called blade, it's a bit bigger than a console mainly to accommodate as much DIMM slots as possible

b0redom
22nd October 2015, 12:21
I use a couple of these at home. One for a NAS (FreeNAS and plugins) and one for a VMWare ESX server. Loaded with RAM they're very fast. No idea about gaming on one - should be fine as long as you can keep inside the power output envelope of the PSU I would guess.

Lenovo TS140 Intel Xeon E3-1226 V3 3.3GHz 8MB L3 Cache 1600MHz 1x4GB DDR3-1600 uDIMM 1 x 1TB 3.5" DC | Servers Direct (http://www.serversdirect.co.uk/Lenovo_TS140_Intel_Xeon_E3-1226_V3_3.3GHz_8MB_L3_Cache_1600MHz_1x4GB_DDR3-1_70A50022UK/version.asp?refsource=sdadwords&gclid=Cj0KEQjwkqKxBRCIrK_riNm13Z8BEiQAdzdVkB0Zs0L1 aXMw_-VokW8hKYD_dwtc02lZ2AQ3bReDjM4aAlyK8P8HAQ)

rl4engc
22nd October 2015, 12:24
Cheers for the ideas so far folks

@vetran
Would consider NAS, but this puts me off: 1) has the word 'cloud' in it, I'd want it purely local? 2) Goes on about RAID; if the NAS enclosure failed, I'd lose all data no? I'd just want to have NTFS formatted drives I could relocate? 3) TBH even with microserver I'd keep it on 24/7, Microserver+Ext.SATA could be an option.

Never heard of apps on a NAS, will look into it, but with my (3) above this might be moot.


Once SSD overtakes spinning rust for price per gb and max size I'm sure that will happen.

Doubt it will never happen, as mechanical seems to be accelerating away; you can get a 4TB spinning disc for ~£100 or 40GB/£1, SSD is about 500Gb/£125 or 4Gb/£1

@sal

Hmm the HP servers could be the way forward I'm thinking, if there's one with low power consumption and space for drives.

Why can't graphics card manufacturers make a card that hardly uses any power when it's just idling? No need for 1024 GPU's to be running flat out if the monitor isn't even on, or just showing a windows desktop. :confused:

The Spartan
22nd October 2015, 12:27
I use a couple of these at home. One for a NAS (FreeNAS and plugins) and one for a VMWare ESX server. Loaded with RAM they're very fast. No idea about gaming on one - should be fine as long as you can keep inside the power output envelope of the PSU I would guess.

Lenovo TS140 Intel Xeon E3-1226 V3 3.3GHz 8MB L3 Cache 1600MHz 1x4GB DDR3-1600 uDIMM 1 x 1TB 3.5" DC | Servers Direct (http://www.serversdirect.co.uk/Lenovo_TS140_Intel_Xeon_E3-1226_V3_3.3GHz_8MB_L3_Cache_1600MHz_1x4GB_DDR3-1_70A50022UK/version.asp?refsource=sdadwords&gclid=Cj0KEQjwkqKxBRCIrK_riNm13Z8BEiQAdzdVkB0Zs0L1 aXMw_-VokW8hKYD_dwtc02lZ2AQ3bReDjM4aAlyK8P8HAQ)

Either this ^^ or this I would say:Dell Tower Servers 20-3708 | Servers Plus (http://www.serversplus.com/servers/tower_servers/dell_tower_servers/20-3708)

vetran
22nd October 2015, 12:29
Cheers for the ideas so far folks

@vetran
Would consider NAS, but this puts me off: 1) has the word 'cloud' in it, I'd want it purely local? 2) Goes on about RAID; if the NAS enclosure failed, I'd lose all data no? I'd just want to have NTFS formatted drives I could relocate? 3) TBH even with microserver I'd keep it on 24/7, Microserver+Ext.SATA could be an option.

Never heard of apps on a NAS, will look into it, but with my (3) above this might be moot.




Cloudy stuff has to be switched on. Works fine without.

It does JBOD as well. You can also add external drives so you can back up vital files. Or you can copy between NAS
You can just swap out the drive to another NAS of the same type. That's why I have 2.


I have Asterisk, TVheadend, torrent ,DLNA & squeezebox on mine. I can play films etc from my smart tv or via various STBs.

rl4engc
22nd October 2015, 12:29
I use a couple of these at home. One for a NAS (FreeNAS and plugins) and one for a VMWare ESX server. Loaded with RAM they're very fast. No idea about gaming on one - should be fine as long as you can keep inside the power output envelope of the PSU I would guess.


Looks a good spec, Aren't Lenovo chinese design though so risk they come with 'phone home' firmware? :) Are they reliable/well built, I'm used to Dell which are like the Toyota Hilux's of the server world?

When you say NAS, as in the server itself is the NAS? i.e. you put a NAS OS on? Linux?

rl4engc
22nd October 2015, 12:37
It does JBOD as well.

So that's, just bung a disc in, tell it to format it as NTFS and have each drive as a seperate volume? I don't mind merging as long as I can be 100% sure that if the NAS enclosure goes nipples skywards in 1,2 5, 10 years I can get at my data just by plugging the disc into a SATA connector on a motherboard. I wouldn't want 4 doorstops.

I'm not fussed about RAID, never had a Hitachi drive fail on me, my oldest is my 24/7 torrenting one and that's about 8 years old I'd estimate.



I have Asterisk, TVheadend, torrent ,DLNA & squeezebox on mine. I can play films etc from my smart tv or via various STBs.

This is the bit I don't get; surely a 24/7 NAS+Apps == 24/7 Microserver ? as long as microserver is energy efficient. And a server you can use direct you don't have to remote into it?

stek
22nd October 2015, 13:04
Looks a good spec, Aren't Lenovo chinese design though so risk they come with 'phone home' firmware? :) Are they reliable/well built, I'm used to Dell which are like the Austin Mini Metro of the server world?

FTFY

Platypus
22nd October 2015, 13:33
I chose this NAS software LimeTech (http://lime-technology.com/)

because if one disc fails you can get at the data off the others (it doesn't stripe files across disks). And it has a parity disk so that if on disk fails you can replace it and it will rebuild.

Just a thought.

In my HP Microserver I have 4 x Hitachi 4TB discs giving me 12TB of storage (and the parity disk)

HTH

vetran
22nd October 2015, 14:00
So that's, just bung a disc in, tell it to format it as NTFS and have each drive as a seperate volume? I don't mind merging as long as I can be 100% sure that if the NAS enclosure goes nipples skywards in 1,2 5, 10 years I can get at my data just by plugging the disc into a SATA connector on a motherboard. I wouldn't want 4 doorstops.

I'm not fussed about RAID, never had a Hitachi drive fail on me, my oldest is my 24/7 torrenting one and that's about 8 years old I'd estimate.



This is the bit I don't get; surely a 24/7 NAS+Apps == 24/7 Microserver ? as long as microserver is energy efficient. And a server you can use direct you don't have to remote into it?

Its normally a linux format as the boxes are embedded linux, you can get drivers to use on windows or use a bootable inux.

The Microserver depending what you throw at it will be about 40->250w 40w motherboard + 40w for 4 drives + Graphics & others.

NAS will be 60w max. 10-20w motherboard + 4 *10w drives.

Access to a NAS is as a web page. NAS is near silent.

Think of it as NAS=central heating, Gaming machine is a fan heater, they both do the same job, one just happens to run all the time.

suityou01
22nd October 2015, 14:34
Running a AMD FX 9590 (Water cooled) on a Asus Sabertooth 990FX/R2.0 with 32GB Ram.

500GB Primary drive runs Centos 7, with Samba4 providing an active directory.

2TB Secondary drive has all my VMs, NFShares etc. VMs running in KVM behind a virtual network. I use noip and have a few holes pocked in my firewall so I can access the VMs remotely if I am aaaat and aabaaaat.

I don't need to heat the office, if I'm cold I just start up another VM :D

rl4engc
22nd October 2015, 15:20
Liking the look of the Lenovo, but Dell has £70 cash back.

Wouldn't say a Dell is like a Metro, they all seem built like tanks whenever I've had to move one.

Lenovo has 2x 16x PCI which I guess is good for twin graphics cards (if PSU can power it)

Gonna research them more, seems there's a few offers for this month (also end of business year so could do with one soon.. )

Lockhouse
23rd October 2015, 06:44
What do people do about an OS?

I'm running an 8 year old Tranquil PC Sqa5h Cube with 2Gb memory and 10Gb RAID but I'm still on Windows Home Server. I've found WHS to be exceptionally reliable but I can't keep running it forever. I don't want something I'm going to have to faff about with, I just want something that works out of the box. (Backup, file server, media, etc). About once a year I think about replacing it but then think "Nah, can't be bothered"....

sal
23rd October 2015, 09:04
I'm using Xpenology, port of the Synology DMS that can run on non-Synology hardware

b0redom
23rd October 2015, 09:17
I use FreeNAS 9.3 for my NAS box. It does ZFS (software RAID). If the hardware fails, you can pull the disks out and put it into any other system capable of running ZFS, run zfs import and it'll all just start working again. You don't even need to attach the disks in order. I've tried it and it definitely works.

I use a bunch of the plugins too:

Download FreeNAS Release - FreeNAS Project (http://www.freenas.org/download-freenas-release.html)

Plugins:

Features - FreeNAS Project (http://www.freenas.org/about/features.html#plugins)

sal
23rd October 2015, 09:22
Do you use ECC memory with ZFS? I have heard a lot of horror stories of data corruption in ZFS by not using ECC memory, some details here:

https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/ecc-vs-non-ecc-ram-and-zfs.15449/

stek
23rd October 2015, 09:34
I bought a 12TB Oracle 7210 Unified Storage SAN/NAS cheap, that does ZFS and has a wee card with some SSD's on it for cacheing. Despite being a diehard Sun (now Oracle)-head I just don't get on with it, the Fishworks OS and GUI I find hard to navigate.

It's basically a Sun X4450 stuffed with disks and fibre cards....

I'm always on eBay looking for bargains, bought a quarter rack of IBM kit that wasn't moving so I made a silly offer (£200) and it was mine. I wanted the DS3400/EXP3000 SAN from it but I got a TS3100 tape library, 16-port Fibre Switch, and four IBM servers I chucked in the corner as well. Recently took a look at them, two meaty ones, but no disk/ram, one little thing but the last one was a dual Xeon with 128gb ram so that's my home server now, uses 180w not bad for the oomph....

b0redom
23rd October 2015, 09:40
I now use ECC memory, because it wasn't _that_ much more expensive. I ran it without for quite a few years with no problems (in a HP Microserver actually).

vwdan
23rd October 2015, 10:12
This is my gear - I'd not really describe it as quiet, though.

http://i.imgur.com/Skl7JL9.png
(It's destined for the garage when we move)

rl4engc
23rd October 2015, 10:56
I think I've discounted NAS as it seems to me they're mainly for if you want access to their files 24/7, but have a sepatate PC/Gaming Rig that they turn on when needed, which isn't the way I work..

Quite like the look of the Lenovo TS440 which is a bit bigger than the TS140 but a bit more pricey, but more space and bigger PSU.