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Gumbo Robot
22nd October 2015, 10:57
Anyone here got solar panels?

Link (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3281593/Why-shouldn-t-solar-panels-ve-saved-hundreds-driving-poor-wife-twist.html)



The Government is planning to slash generation tariffs for new domestic installations by 83 per cent from the start of next year to 1.63p per kilowatt hour (kWh)...

...firms that install and maintain the panels will go out of business — in fact, three have gone in the past month — making maintenance a concern.

So what's behind these cuts? Well, the Government set a target of 750,000 solar installations, including commercial ones, by 2020 and that was hit last month


I wonder if the government were explicit about these high tariffs only being for a limited time when people were rushing to get these installed right, left and centre a few years back?



The Government has guaranteed energy giant EDF and its partners will receive at least £92.50 for every mega-watt hour of electricity generated by Hinkley Point C — twice the current market price — and that figure will rise with inflation.

There appears to be a political judgement that UK homeowners shouldn't make a profit from producing electricity, whereas international businesses should....


That was my suspicion all along.

vetran
22nd October 2015, 11:05
Anyone here got solar panels?

Link (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3281593/Why-shouldn-t-solar-panels-ve-saved-hundreds-driving-poor-wife-twist.html)



I wonder if the government were explicit about these high tariffs only being for a limited time when people were rushing to get these installed right, left and centre a few years back?



That was my suspicion all along.

AIUI if you are signed up already you still get the old price.

_V_
22nd October 2015, 11:06
I would rather the whole of the UK roofs were covered in solar panels than foreign owned and run nuclear power stations, especially if we (taxpayers) have to subsidise them either way.

SimonMac
22nd October 2015, 11:06
I have solar panels on the BTL, I stuck another £25 a month on the rent so the tenant pays for them not me as they think they are getting the benefit, I could log on to see if they are saving much but I'm not that fussed lol

northernladuk
22nd October 2015, 11:11
Don't forget to the factor in the impact on the re-sale value of the property. Not everyone wants a load of ugly solar panels on the roof and will be unsure of the benefit so may shy away so reducing the marketable value of the house. Depends on how visible it is and all that I guess and yes it's a green way to go but not everyone will see it as a benefit.

VectraMan
22nd October 2015, 11:13
I would rather the whole of the UK roofs were covered in solar panels than foreign owned and run nuclear power stations, especially if we (taxpayers) have to subsidise them either way.

But how much power would actually be generated if that were so? Maybe they've done the sums and worked out the money is much better spent on something that actually can produce enough power, all day and all year round.

Neither should need generous government subsidies to make them viable.

minestrone
22nd October 2015, 11:21
Paranoid.

Anyways, according to this ( which I admit is old data in a highly volatile industry ) 92.50 is not that bad...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#United_Kingdom

Gumbo Robot
22nd October 2015, 11:28
Don't forget to the factor in the impact on the re-sale value of the property. Not everyone wants a load of ugly solar panels on the roof and will be unsure of the benefit so may shy away so reducing the marketable value of the house. Depends on how visible it is and all that I guess and yes it's a green way to go but not everyone will see it as a benefit.

Yes, they're not exactly a good look on a period property like an old cottage and will probably be viewed as a negative by anyone in the market for a house like that.

vetran
22nd October 2015, 11:35
But how much power would actually be generated if that were so? Maybe they've done the sums and worked out the money is much better spent on something that actually can produce enough power, all day and all year round.

Neither should need generous government subsidies to make them viable.


about a quarter -> third of the houses demand allegedly.

There are lots of things we could do to reduce electricity usage but we aren't

LED lighting everywhere. 90% reduction in lighting load + cooling needs reduction.

Induction hobs, Solar / ground water & space heating. Heat recovery etc

Economy 7+ on new smart meters. An intermittently supplied cheap power used to keep a power station on standby dissipating excess power. Suitable for things like water heating, space heating and charging.

pjclarke
22nd October 2015, 11:37
Elon Musk-backed solar power firm blames subsidy cuts for UK exit | Environment | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/16/solar-firm-blames-subsidy-cuts-for-uk-exit)

The Greenest Government ever. Not.

OwlHoot
22nd October 2015, 11:38
I have a feeling solar panels today are where PCs were in about 1978, i.e. just about to plummet in price and increase markedly in efficiency.

Hardly a day goes by without some new article I receive on one of the tech email lists I subscribe to detailing a new advance in solar cell technology.

If so then the implication is that it would be daft to spend a fortune on a set of panels today when they will soon be much cheaper and better.

psychocandy
22nd October 2015, 11:40
Some right con artists in this business.

Had a guy around a few months ago. He waffled on then I said figures matey. He was vague. Not keen to give me a copy either.

Anyway, they'd added crap like "we'll give you 10 low energy lightbulbs so that'll save x per year - look your £20 a month better off". As soon as I said forget the lightbuld crap its got to pay for itself using guaranteed income etc he basically picked up his stuff said thanks and bolted for the door.....

Obviously with their business model they know there are easy pickings out there and as soon as someone queries the figures they're onto you so you're better off bailing and not wasting any more time....

Got the quote checked out and he'd used max possible estimates. I would never in a million years have worked out worth doing.

They do spout on about how you're saving the environment on your own lol. Can imagine lots of people falling for it then finding they're paying for an expensive loan and are £50/month worse off than they were before. Sales guys must know this - how they sleep at night I dont know....

northernladuk
22nd October 2015, 12:31
Some right con artists in this business.

Had a guy around a few months ago. He waffled on then I said figures matey. He was vague. Not keen to give me a copy either.

Anyway, they'd added crap like "we'll give you 10 low energy lightbulbs so that'll save x per year - look your £20 a month better off". As soon as I said forget the lightbuld crap its got to pay for itself using guaranteed income etc he basically picked up his stuff said thanks and bolted for the door.....

Obviously with their business model they know there are easy pickings out there and as soon as someone queries the figures they're onto you so you're better off bailing and not wasting any more time....

Got the quote checked out and he'd used max possible estimates. I would never in a million years have worked out worth doing.

They do spout on about how you're saving the environment on your own lol. Can imagine lots of people falling for it then finding they're paying for an expensive loan and are £50/month worse off than they were before. Sales guys must know this - how they sleep at night I dont know....

Can we have a yawning smiley please?:zzzz: this one doesn't really fit.... or does it?

OwlHoot
22nd October 2015, 12:37
Some right con artists in this business.

Had a guy around a few months ago. He waffled on then I said figures matey. He was vague. Not keen to give me a copy either.

Anyway, they'd added crap like "we'll give you 10 low energy lightbulbs so that'll save x per year - look your £20 a month better off". As soon as I said forget the lightbuld crap its got to pay for itself using guaranteed income etc he basically picked up his stuff said thanks and bolted for the door.....

Obviously with their business model they know there are easy pickings out there and as soon as someone queries the figures they're onto you so you're better off bailing and not wasting any more time....

Got the quote checked out and he'd used max possible estimates. I would never in a million years have worked out worth doing.

They do spout on about how you're saving the environment on your own lol. Can imagine lots of people falling for it then finding they're paying for an expensive loan and are £50/month worse off than they were before. Sales guys must know this - how they sleep at night I dont know....

With that kind of shady deal, they own the panels and you lease your roof space to them, which can greatly complicate selling your gaff should you wish.

Far better to take the hit and buy the panels direct (even with an unsecured loan if need be), unless you agree with me that they will drop in price before long.

NibblyPig
22nd October 2015, 12:44
Economy 7 is pretty jank as anyone who has had to endure storage heaters will tell you.

If tesla come up with a decent battery though, might be more viable.

Gumbo Robot
22nd October 2015, 12:54
Economy 7 is pretty jank as anyone who has had to endure storage heaters will tell you.

If tesla come up with a decent battery though, might be more viable.

Yes, rented a house with them in once.

Terrible it was.

Freezing cold all night and oppressively hot during the day when I used to have to open all the windows and doors.

Fortunately I was out at work most days.

Good for old folks, that's about it.

VectraMan
22nd October 2015, 13:02
Economy 7 is pretty jank as anyone who has had to endure storage heaters will tell you.

Yes I had them once. Completely useless.

It could work to heat your water, although most people have gas heating and hot water anyway. So switching lots over to electric will increase the electricity demand.

EternalOptimist
22nd October 2015, 13:10
Don't shed any tears for the solar panel troughers. Solar power is free , remember ?
You can see how weak their arguments are when the subsidy teat is removed and they start howling like banshees.

Maybe if we had ignored them from the start we would still have a steel industry

vetran
22nd October 2015, 13:52
Economy 7 is pretty jank as anyone who has had to endure storage heaters will tell you.

If tesla come up with a decent battery though, might be more viable.

As many things are battery supported it will be easier.

Water heating, electric car charging & Battery storage are the ideal targets. Storage heaters weren't so good, they they only slowed the release of heat, now you could insulate them and add a fan to release heat (later ones did that). Electronic on demand switching and storage may improve that.

The point being you can send a pulse of power when you are running up a power station and a tail off. So when you run up a coal fired station to support the kettle peak. You can pulse economy 7 for half an hour to get the sweet spot of that power station. If you have excess during the night you can do the same.

If in the meter you allow an Economy 7+ relay output you can switch power on locally to an economy 7 outlet or to remotely connected sockets.

OwlHoot
22nd October 2015, 14:07
I have a feeling solar panels today are where PCs were in about 1978, i.e. just about to plummet in price and increase markedly in efficiency.

Hardly a day goes by without some new article I receive on one of the tech email lists I subscribe to detailing a new advance in solar cell technology.

If so then the implication is that it would be daft to spend a fortune on a set of panels today when they will soon be much cheaper and better.

e.g:

2015-10-22 Shining more light on solar panels (http://www.rdmag.com/news/2015/10/shining-more-light-solar-panels)


Solar panels are the beacon of renewable energy, yet they are not getting as much light as they could be. Joshua Pearce from Michigan Technological Univ. and a team from Queen’s Univ. in Canada have found a way to get more sun to shine on the panels and crank up the output by 30% or more. The work is published in the Journal of Photovoltaics. ...

d000hg
22nd October 2015, 14:30
Don't forget to the factor in the impact on the re-sale value of the property. Not everyone wants a load of ugly solar panels on the roof and will be unsure of the benefit so may shy away so reducing the marketable value of the house. Depends on how visible it is and all that I guess and yes it's a green way to go but not everyone will see it as a benefit.Yes but some people will want them and will prefer to buy such a house. At this time they're popular although as mentioned they really don't suit some houses.


But how much power would actually be generated if that were so? Maybe they've done the sums and worked out the money is much better spent on something that actually can produce enough power, all day and all year round.

Neither should need generous government subsidies to make them viable.Long term I agree but to spur take up it is not a bad idea, when it requires quite a big up-front cost. Like the grants/subsidies on insulation. Same principle as a shop doing an introductory discount on a new product really.

MarillionFan
22nd October 2015, 14:31
I've got some on a rental property. They seem to cut the leccy bill by 25% according to the tenants & compared to next door which doesn't have them.

Feed in Tariff. I've had a cracking 75 quid back so far in a year.

Cost me 3 grand. :eyes

Troll
22nd October 2015, 15:03
They do seem to be improving the aesthetics of solar tiles

I'm waiting for the roof tiles that will split water into H & O using sunlight then pipe off the H to run a genny / car off it

http://oesystems.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/impvt1-300x224.jpg

Gumbo Robot
22nd October 2015, 15:06
They do seem to be improving the aesthetics of solar tiles

I'm waiting for the roof tiles that will split water into H & O using sunlight then pipe off the H to run a genny / car off it

http://oesystems.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/impvt1-300x224.jpg

Any chance they'll be able to to a thatched version?

Archangel
22nd October 2015, 18:23
I've got a 4kw array on t'roof, usually produces around 2kwh in summer, getting around £500pa in income, and the aga is powered for free (or mostly) between 11am and 2pm most weeks of the year.

The problem with solar is obvious. We generate when we don't need it and don't when we do. I'm waiting for those batteries...

TykeMerc
22nd October 2015, 18:53
Elon Musk-backed solar power firm blames subsidy cuts for UK exit | Environment | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/16/solar-firm-blames-subsidy-cuts-for-uk-exit)

The Greenest Government ever. Not.

Since when have "green credentials" been anything other than a complete con? If you're actually taken in by the term or its application then you've less sense than a 2 year old.


Any chance they'll be able to to a thatched version?

Thanks for that input GittinsGimp.


They do seem to be improving the aesthetics of solar tiles

I'm waiting for the roof tiles that will split water into H & O using sunlight then pipe off the H to run a genny / car off it

http://oesystems.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/impvt1-300x224.jpg

Good point :D

d000hg
23rd October 2015, 09:56
I've got a 4kw array on t'roof, usually produces around 2kwh in summer, getting around £500pa in income, and the aga is powered for free (or mostly) between 11am and 2pm most weeks of the year.

The problem with solar is obvious. We generate when we don't need it and don't when we do. I'm waiting for those batteries...
I was interested to see that on Grand Designs (2 weeks ago I think) they guy built an "off-grid" house i.e. no mains water or power. It wasn't even a hippy house, looked fairly normal but they got all their power from solar panels and a tiny (like a kid's toy almost) wind turbine. Obviously they had batteries but it wasn't mentioned how this was set up.

I was quite impressed - assuming someone did their sums right and it actually works of course.

VectraMan
23rd October 2015, 10:22
I was interested to see that on Grand Designs (2 weeks ago I think) they guy built an "off-grid" house i.e. no mains water or power. It wasn't even a hippy house, looked fairly normal but they got all their power from solar panels and a tiny (like a kid's toy almost) wind turbine. Obviously they had batteries but it wasn't mentioned how this was set up.

I was quite impressed - assuming someone did their sums right and it actually works of course.

Was that the bloke in the forest, or was it a new one?

I get sucked into watching all the Alaska programmes on Discovery, and many of them have solar panels and wind turbines combined with batteries - car batteries or similar by the looks of it. But then they also spend half their lives chopping wood for heat, and these aren't the sort of people that sit in front of the TV or have lots of computers or other electrical devices to power. And they all have petrol/diesel generators to use too for when they need it.

JRCT
23rd October 2015, 10:51
But then they also spend half their lives chopping wood for heat.

He who chops the wood, warms himself twice.

Confuscious, 1721-1948.

vetran
23rd October 2015, 18:14
Was that the bloke in the forest, or was it a new one?

I get sucked into watching all the Alaska programmes on Discovery, and many of them have solar panels and wind turbines combined with batteries - car batteries or similar by the looks of it. But then they also spend half their lives chopping wood for heat, and these aren't the sort of people that sit in front of the TV or have lots of computers or other electrical devices to power. And they all have petrol/diesel generators to use too for when they need it.

they aren't car batteries, different discharge curve. The lead is a different shape, the case is the same though.

If you take heating, cooling & cooking out of the equation and switch to led lighting most houses can use very little energy.

My manshack uses 63Watts of power to turn it into daylight in there.It can run with 20 watts and be quite bright. The house lighting is probably 200 watts with everything on.

Gumbo Robot
23rd October 2015, 18:28
they aren't car batteries, different discharge curve. The lead is a different shape, the case is the same though.

If you take heating, cooling & cooking out of the equation and switch to led lighting most houses can use very little energy.

My manshack uses 63Watts of power to turn it into daylight in there.It can run with 20 watts and be quite bright. The house lighting is probably 200 watts with everything on.

I see it's no longer possible to buy incadescent bulbs from outlets like Homebase etc.

They started off with the higher wattage bulbs e.g. not selling 100w incandescent bulbs just the energy saver version.

Seems it's gone right across the board now.

Not sure what's the greenest though - LED, eco-halogen, energy saving (the ones that take 30 seconds to light up - not keen on those at all; when I'm in a rush in the morning for a clean pair of socks out the spare room, I don't want to wait 30 seconds to see what I'm doing!)

I'm guessing the LEDs are the greenest; especially if they have the claimed lifetime.

AtW
23rd October 2015, 20:36
I'm guessing the LEDs are the greenest

No, having no light at all is the greenest.

HTH

vetran
23rd October 2015, 21:50
I see it's no longer possible to buy incadescent bulbs from outlets like Homebase etc.

They started off with the higher wattage bulbs e.g. not selling 100w incandescent bulbs just the energy saver version.

Seems it's gone right across the board now.

Not sure what's the greenest though - LED, eco-halogen, energy saving (the ones that take 30 seconds to light up - not keen on those at all; when I'm in a rush in the morning for a clean pair of socks out the spare room, I don't want to wait 30 seconds to see what I'm doing!)

I'm guessing the LEDs are the greenest; especially if they have the claimed lifetime.

LEDs seem to be leading the pack, 10w led compares favorably with a 100w halogen. They don't have free mercury like CFL and the lifetime is years (I had 5w GU10s for about 3 years without failures, 2w ones before).

AtW
23rd October 2015, 22:04
LED gun in 10 watt range... hmmmmmmm

No, NEXT!

:eyes