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northernladuk
28th October 2015, 13:02
Looking at some of the posts we have had recently about contractors jumping ship to gigs that suit them a little better.

I wonder what is going to play out when the T&S rules kick in post Apr 16. Are we going to see the norm being to take any gig that get's you off the bench and then ditching the gig for one close to home when it appears?

The rules will make quite a difference to income when comparing a gig with an hour or so commute compare to one on your doorstep. If business decision one is to get yourself off the bench but it is also a solid business decision to dump your client when a better one comes up close to home then there is a good chance carnage is going to ensue.

Can't be good for us in the long run even if individuals think they are making the right decision for them.

TheFaQQer
28th October 2015, 14:17
If that were to happen, then there could be a case for clients to finally raise their voice to HMRC / HMG and point out how bad the new rules are for businesses.

Dallas
28th October 2015, 14:29
Works to my favour, send all the commuters back up to their shires :tongue

northernladuk
28th October 2015, 14:32
If that were to happen, then there could be a case for clients to finally raise their voice to HMRC / HMG and point out how bad the new rules are for businesses.

Indeed but the reputations damage and will be done and no notice contracts will be the norm.

FiveTimes
28th October 2015, 14:34
Or the client might go for a remote work option with occasional visit to site ?

Pherlopolus
28th October 2015, 14:37
Will rates ultimately flex based on the availability of local labour more than now?

Supply in the hubs potentially quite high, so rates could be less with everyone trying to get local work (London/Manchester etc)

Rates in the shires for specific skills will have to be higher to reflect the fact that T+S will have to be accounted for (or less as companies will be unable to find people and will get a Bob in citing a skills shortage)

I think flexibility of most contractors keeps rates fairly stable currently.... Market rate may take on a new meaning....

Bluespider
28th October 2015, 14:46
Indeed but the reputations damage and will be done and no notice contracts will be the norm.

No notice contracts, in either context ( you cant leave before end date or you can leave without notice) are surely a better position to be in regarding IR35?

would these not remove us further from permie work terms and set our working relationships/practices apart?

Also, from some of your other posts I can't help feel that you have a vested interest in Contractors working their full contract term. I get that contractors not being reliable to deliver a project or piece of work is reputational damage across the sector that may cause havoc and build distrust, but from your other posts you seem to be responsible for hiring and firing other contractors? no?
is this position purely because chopping and changing means you have to interview more and spend less time on here?

northernladuk
28th October 2015, 14:55
No notice contracts, in either context ( you cant leave before end date or you can leave without notice) are surely a better position to be in regarding IR35?

would these not remove us further from permie work terms and set our working relationships/practices apart?

It's a good flag yes (for the next 17 months anyway) but that's not the topic of this thread.



Also, from some of your other posts I can't help feel that you have a vested interest in Contractors working their full contract term. I get that contractors not being reliable to deliver a project or piece of work is reputational damage across the sector that may cause havoc and build distrust, but from your other posts you seem to be responsible for hiring and firing other contractors? no?
is this position purely because chopping and changing means you have to interview more and spend less time on here?

Shame you are wrong. I don't like the attitude of mercenary 'contractors' which is a personal thing so like to play devil's advocate in these threads.

I've been asked to help resource a place at current client. I shared my experiences as it was a bit eyeopening.

That's about it. No vested interests or time spent away from here etc.

MrMarkyMark
28th October 2015, 15:17
but from your other posts you seem to be responsible for hiring and firing other contractors? no?
is this position purely because chopping and changing means you have to interview more and spend less time on here?

I would say he is protecting his own professional reputation.
Picking duff contractors for client co, does not do you any favors, believe me I know :wink.

Obviously, you are new to this, so haven't yet stepped into the contracting resourcing arena.
An eye opener, as has already been said.

Also, I would imagine you haven't, yet, had to lead a team, its a lot easier with really good people.

psychocandy
28th October 2015, 15:21
Glad you agree that its a business decision NLUK. As you said, surely its a business decision to get off the bench, then another to take something closer to home ESPECIALLY with the loss of expenses.

Here's what I think will happen:-

1. A lot of contractors will bail and go back to perm.

2. Clients won't give a monkeys to start with. I know I've mentioned it in passing to my client whilst down the pub that 'things might be changing in April'. All you get is joking comments like you lot need to pay more tax/whys that our problem.

2. When it does start to affect them when they can't get people in, then they'll realise they should have taken an interest earlier.

3. Crap paid contracts are going to see even less candidates as if becomes unviable for people to travel.

4. Even half-decent contractors in some parts of the country are going to struggle. E.g. If you live in London, its now going to take a bit more to get you to stump up for a hotel in wales every week.

5. Those of us who live in these out of the way places might have less competition. (See 4 above). As a contractor who rarely works away from home this is good for me! :-)

6. We will see more no notice contracts as client work out whats going to happen.

7. There might be more WFH as clients work out they've got to allow this.

8. EVENTUALLY, rates will rise because it will sink in and clients still want contractors.

Bluespider
28th October 2015, 15:26
So this is essentially about the good of the many outweighing the good of the individual.

Should we band together under a code of ethics that tries to keep the quality of supply at a certain level? Protecting the contractor position as a business force that can be relied upon to deliver under the original terms of engagement?

Do we allow (can we stop) individuals being mercenary as you state and jumping for the best terms/cash position?

Is it down to each individual to decide how to run their business? Invoking notice clauses to pursue other interests at the cost of current relationship.

This may have an impact on the market and our reputation within it, but the state of affairs post 2016 may well shake the tree of all the dead leaves anyway, leaving (no pun intended) those of us who are in this for the long run and have the ability to build up our own reputation.

Personally, Ive done both. Stuck out a contract until the end and moved on and also left mid term, although the work was drying up and the writing was on the wall. there wasn't much of a lurch to leave anyone in...
I've also been cut early, business case shifted considerably and my position was no longer required.

To me, the flexible attitude needs to be in both directions. Employers need to start coming to terms with the real nature of flexible contract workers in that we can be brought in to do specific, required tasks and then binned but we can also leave of our own volition if the landscape shifts.

I don't, however, condone walking out mid deliverable when there is no handover and you are impacting the schedule or completion. That's bad business in anyone's book.

northernladuk
28th October 2015, 15:27
Glad you agree that its a business decision NLUK. As you said, surely its a business decision to get off the bench, then another to take something closer to home ESPECIALLY with the loss of expenses.

I was being sarcastic and putting the case as a mercenary idiot would do it. If that becomes the norm then we've screwed ourselves and won't need HMRC to do it for us.

Bluespider
28th October 2015, 15:32
Obviously, you are new to this, so haven't yet stepped into the contracting resourcing arena.


I humbly submit to your ability to divine information from a few forum posts. Your knack is quite uncanny.

You seem to have me pegged, quite succinctly, Sir, I doff my cap...:eek:

psychocandy
28th October 2015, 16:00
I was being sarcastic and putting the case as a mercenary idiot would do it. If that becomes the norm then we've screwed ourselves and won't need HMRC to do it for us.

Not starting again on this thread mun NLUK.

I would argue its business decision to take ANY gig if you're stuck on the bench for too long and possibly another business decision to give notice to take up a gig closer to home ESPECIALLY if expenses costs are crippling the companies income.

northernladuk
28th October 2015, 16:01
Not starting again on this thread mun NLUK.

I would argue its business decision to take ANY gig if you're stuck on the bench for too long and possibly another business decision to give notice to take up a gig closer to home ESPECIALLY if expenses costs are crippling the companies income.

And what will be the response from our clients if that is the norm?

northernladuk
28th October 2015, 16:05
If that were to happen, then there could be a case for clients to finally raise their voice to HMRC / HMG and point out how bad the new rules are for businesses.

Has this mercenary approach been highlighted in any of the responses to consultations or is it too hypothetical to have been included? Has to come as an argument from clients not contractors?

psychocandy
28th October 2015, 16:11
And what will be the response from our clients if that is the norm?

They won't like it obviously. Then, eventually, they will realise that the changes are affecting them.

I think it will also mean that clients will be even more loathe to take on contractors who they know do mon-fri because of this risk.

MrMarkyMark
29th October 2015, 09:39
I humbly submit to your ability to divine information from a few forum posts. Your knack is quite uncanny.

You seem to have me pegged, quite succinctly, Sir, I doff my cap...:eek:

Thanks :smokin

I thought you had posted as much recently, yourself, apologies if I was wrong :smile.

Pherlopolus
29th October 2015, 09:43
And what will be the response from our clients if that is the norm?

"We can't find any suitable resource in the UK, can we get some non-british workers in please - they are so much more professional and hardworking, and they stand by their commitments...."

psychocandy
29th October 2015, 11:01
"We can't find any suitable resource in the UK, can we get some non-british workers in please - they are so much more professional and hardworking, and they stand by their commitments...."

And then they realise they are in fact crap. The outsource to india bubble has burst - lots of companies tried this and its just starting to sink in at some places that you get what you pay for all. Not all I will admit.

fool
29th October 2015, 12:08
And then they realise they are in fact crap. The outsource to india bubble has burst - lots of companies tried this and its just starting to sink in at some places that you get what you pay for all. Not all I will admit.

To be fair to NLUK, if you take a client with the intention to get paid and jump as soon as you find a better offer which you're actively looking for then you're also crap. It might be a "business decision" but it's also a massive tulip move.

I totally understand people who are desperate doing crappy things, but contracting is a choice and thus you're unlikely truly deperate. You should categorically never be doing that with the exception of being clear with that client of your intentions.

Now if an old boss contacts you tomorrow and offers you £300 extra a day, I can understand you deliberating that and while the outcome may be similar, the difference in how you handle yourself is paramount.

Back on topic: I moved from the central belt of Scotland to Surrey. Thus far being near London pretty much means double the rate and never really having to be on the bench. Whilst I won't be happy about it, especially consider my competition is exempt, I'll survive the loss of my £400 a month train ticket being expensed. Default in IR35 is something I'm super not happy about though.

psychocandy
29th October 2015, 12:56
Back on topic: I moved from the central belt of Scotland to Surrey. Thus far being near London pretty much means double the rate and never really having to be on the bench. Whilst I won't be happy about it, especially consider my competition is exempt, I'll survive the loss of my £400 a month train ticket being expensed. Default in IR35 is something I'm super not happy about though.

No because 20% of that is only £80 out of your pocket. So probably £4 a day.

Bit different if someone is driving 300 miles on a mon/fri and staying over 4 night in central london. You're looking at 600 x .45 = £270 plus say £400 (£100 night) call it £700 a week = £3K a month.

Thats £600 more CT because you can't claim expenses. More like £30 a day now - starting to make a difference maybe?

Of course then theres the dividend tax on top and it starts to get worse.

p.s. Move from scotland to england- are you insane? ;-)

80sContractor
29th October 2015, 13:00
I'm seeing a trend in the last 18 months that I've never seen before. I've had 2 clients engage my company, the first for 6 months, the second for 7 months. The first ran out of budget at 3 months and gave me a months notice, the project at the second came in early so they terminated the contractors early. In both cases a view of the project plan showed that both these situations were likely at the time of engagement.

My view is that if clients view this as ok (and it is from a contract perspective) then it is also perfectly fine for the contractor to do the same, after all it is a business decision. I think if this become more prevalent then it makes no sense to have a time period stated on the contract, just a project and notice periods.

Both clients were very decent and let me work the notice period though.

unixman
29th October 2015, 13:29
Looking at some of the posts we have had recently about contractors jumping ship to gigs that suit them a little better.

That might just mean that the market cycle is moving towards a seller's market after being a buyer's market for 7 or 8 years. If so, happy days.

northernladuk
29th October 2015, 14:01
That might just mean that the market cycle is moving towards a seller's market after being a buyer's market for 7 or 8 years. If so, happy days.

No it doesn't but useful input as usual :eyes

fool
29th October 2015, 15:07
No because 20% of that is only £80 out of your pocket. So probably £4 a day.

Bit different if someone is driving 300 miles on a mon/fri and staying over 4 night in central london. You're looking at 600 x .45 = £270 plus say £400 (£100 night) call it £700 a week = £3K a month.

Thats £600 more CT because you can't claim expenses. More like £30 a day now - starting to make a difference maybe?

Of course then theres the dividend tax on top and it starts to get worse.

p.s. Move from scotland to england- are you insane? ;-)

Well by your logic I can pay £3k per month T&S or, you know, less to actually just live here.

To be fair, I used them contracting pennies to buy a house thus changing the dynamic.

garethevans1986
29th October 2015, 16:20
Anybody got an overview of the T&S stuff thats coming in?

northernladuk
29th October 2015, 16:22
Anybody got an overview of the T&S stuff thats coming in?

Have you had a look at any of posts in this section of the forum???

garethevans1986
29th October 2015, 17:05
No because some of us have client work to be getting on with...

psychocandy
30th October 2015, 10:23
No because some of us have client work to be getting on with...

gareth mun. Priorities butti.

p.s. ARe you welsh?