PDA

View Full Version : How Far Back



topgazza
4th November 2015, 20:54
Reading differing numbers but for EBT based self assessment enquiries how far back can HMRC go ? Is it 4 or 6 years ?

topgazza
5th November 2015, 09:34
No one ? :eek

Even the HMRC website is ambiguous...no surprise there.

Also seems to be a confusion around when the period where they can chase starts and ends. I would assume it would be 4/6 years from the end of the tax year and not the calendar year ?

webberg
5th November 2015, 09:47
No one ? :eek

Even the HMRC website is ambiguous...no surprise there.

Also seems to be a confusion around when the period where they can chase starts and ends. I would assume it would be 4/6 years from the end of the tax year and not the calendar year ?

HMRC must open an enquiry into a particular tax year within 12 months of either the last return filing date or 12 months of return submission (depending upon year). If they do, then they can take their own sweet time about closing that enquiry.

If they have failed to open an enquiry, then they can raise a discovery assessment within 4 years of the end of the tax year. Space does not permit a discussion of "discovery" here, but the threads have some keen observations.

Where HMRC consider that some deliberate act has prevented an enquiry being opened or the raising of an assessment within 4 years, then an assessment within 6 years of the end of the tax year can be raised. That adds a further layer of controversial analysis. (I've not seen any evidence that HMRC has used this time limit).

Where fraud is in point, then a 20 year limit applies.

Hope this helps

topgazza
5th November 2015, 09:51
As always you are a great help.... as are many others here. Thank you for a as clear explanation as I could have hoped for.

So, effectively 2010/11 deadline for discovery is gone and next one is 2011/12 which is April 2016...interesting

webberg
5th November 2015, 10:04
As always you are a great help.... as are many others here. Thank you for a as clear explanation as I could have hoped for.

So, effectively 2010/11 deadline for discovery is gone and next one is 2011/12 which is April 2016...interesting

Exactly.

HMRC is currently engaged in a large scale exercise to make sure that 11/12 is properly enquired into or a discovery assessment is made before 5/4/16.

Nothing is going to deflect that juggernaut.

However, people will escape from its path.

topgazza
5th November 2015, 10:06
Its like a series of The Walking Dead..... :smile

Not Losing Any Sleep
5th November 2015, 15:58
Its like a series of The Walking Dead..... :smile

Webberg

I believe there are different time periods for PAYE (4 years) via Reg 80 etc and NI (discovery assessment - protected County Court Claim) - six years.

Please confirm.

Nissan07
6th November 2015, 09:51
So the law I believe was changed 2010/2011 around EBT's, so do the retrospective rules apply pre this date. Very grey area and the following link would suggest not.

https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act/article-7-no-punishment-without-law

webberg
6th November 2015, 18:58
Webberg

I believe there are different time periods for PAYE (4 years) via Reg 80 etc and NI (discovery assessment - protected County Court Claim) - six years.

Please confirm.

Yes, PAYE determinations have a shorter period to be made in because they are based on secondary legislation.

webberg
6th November 2015, 18:59
So the law I believe was changed 2010/2011 around EBT's, so do the retrospective rules apply pre this date. Very grey area and the following link would suggest not.

https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act/article-7-no-punishment-without-law

Changed in December 2010.

Not entirely clear by what you mean with "retrospective rules"?

pin00ch
13th March 2016, 12:23
So I have just been charged for 2011/2012.
I was PAYE in an umbrella company back then. Do I worry that the previous year, 2010/2011 will be looked into?

The whole 4 to 6 year thing is confusing.


Changed in December 2010.

Not entirely clear by what you mean with "retrospective rules"?

pin00ch
13th March 2016, 15:28
I take it there is no way to know if further investigations are going on?
I didn't even know about this one until I got the Discovery Assessment letter yesterday.


So I have just been charged for 2011/2012.
I was PAYE in an umbrella company back then. Do I worry that the previous year, 2010/2011 will be looked into?

The whole 4 to 6 year thing is confusing.

pin00ch
13th March 2016, 15:43
How do you know if you have been assessed for "careless behaviour" ?
The assessment letter I received simply says that I have been assessed since I used a Tax avoidance scheme.



Exactly.

HMRC is currently engaged in a large scale exercise to make sure that 11/12 is properly enquired into or a discovery assessment is made before 5/4/16.

Nothing is going to deflect that juggernaut.

However, people will escape from its path.

webberg
14th March 2016, 15:21
How do you know if you have been assessed for "careless behaviour" ?
The assessment letter I received simply says that I have been assessed since I used a Tax avoidance scheme.

Because the letter with the discovery assessment would say so.

pin00ch
15th March 2016, 14:58
It doesnt say that on the letter.
I guess its a just a 4 year check. I wonder if they are actively pursuing "carelessness".
I dont believe I have been careless in anyway but a valuable lesson learnt!


Because the letter with the discovery assessment would say so.

northernladuk
15th March 2016, 15:09
It doesnt say that on the letter.
I guess its a just a 4 year check. I wonder if they are actively pursuing "carelessness".
I dont believe I have been careless in anyway but a valuable lesson learnt!

Quote goes first and then what you wrote... Makes it hard to understand what the conversation is if you respond and then we have to read what you are commenting on.... HTH

bluemonkey71
15th March 2016, 15:58
It doesnt say that on the letter.
I guess its a just a 4 year check. I wonder if they are actively pursuing "carelessness".
I dont believe I have been careless in anyway but a valuable lesson learnt!


Struggling to make sense of any of your repetitive posts.

1) What years did you use them?
2) Did you get DA or COP 8 for any of them, if so when did you get them?

webberg
15th March 2016, 20:06
At the risk of repeating myself.

HMRC has 12 months from the return being submitted to open an enquiry.

In the event that the return is later, that period is extended to a year and a quarter.

If HMRC misses the deadline, they claim that they can issue a discovery assessment within 4 years of the year end.

If they claim that they missed the deadline because of careless return completion, that discovery period can extend to 6 years.

If they claim that the enquiry deadline is missed because of fraudulent behaviour, that discovery period can be 20 years.

Space is too limited here to discuss discovery.

If HMRC think you have been careless or negligent (deliberately or otherwise) they will raise a penalty. That is not an assessment, but a penalty for breaking the law. It will arrive with separate letters of explanation and can be contested.

pin00ch
15th March 2016, 21:24
SO, forgive my ignorance.. I have had no correspondence relating to "carelessness". so nothing beyond 4 years is being looked at?

I have done nothing wrong but want to know where the line is drawn. That's all.

thanks for the advise. Sorry about the repetition but laws seem to change and retrospective views seem to be allowed.

Im a little minnow, a guy that just wants to right. Forgive my ignorance. Im just panicking about loosing my home over something that I wasnt aware of.

Just to add that i'm aware that ignorance is no excuse. Im just stressed and worried.

pin00ch
16th March 2016, 07:57
Thanks for the advise by the way. Much appreciated.
For clarity: the letter states that it is a Discovery assesment and is based on the activities of one of the payroll companies that my umbrella co was using at the time. This dates back 4 years only. I would get that the payrol co (called Quantum) must have been investigated and now HMRC are goong after the unpaid tax.

The term "careless" hasnt been used so i would hope that this will be the end of the matter once i pay up.