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MarkT
12th November 2015, 15:40
Looks like it really is the end of the world as we know it...:frown.

APSCo blasts (http://www.atlantic-umbrella.com/apsco-blasts-wilful-disregard-for-ir35-recommendations/8444)

BrilloPad
12th November 2015, 15:46
One of the main recommendations that came out of the Select Committee was that HMRC should liaise more closely with the IR35 Forum to ensure that proper engagement with business and relevant stakeholders was taking place before any decisions were made.

What is this IR35 forum?

diseasex
12th November 2015, 15:50
One of the main recommendations that came out of the Select Committee was that HMRC should liaise more closely with the IR35 Forum to ensure that proper engagement with business and relevant stakeholders was taking place before any decisions were made.

What is this IR35 forum?

a forum that talks abou IR35?

MarkT
12th November 2015, 15:51
This is most worrying: https://lnkd.in/e4SviKa

A letter from David Gauke has been seen saying they've already made up their minds? Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but it's hugely worrying me

northernladuk
12th November 2015, 15:53
Why is all this being posted in General all of a sudden. Why not the Future of Contracting thread? All we seem to get over there are some crappy KUATB a day later :(

PurpleGorilla
12th November 2015, 16:11
If I have to go back to permie land, I will be paying less tax to HMRC even with the employer contribution, as the salaries are lower, and top draw for me would be £70k. That would be less tax for HMRC. I will also no longer be supporting other local businesses like accountants, insurance, etc.

MarkT
12th November 2015, 16:13
Well I just didn't know where to post it - then again, if this stuff is true - there is no future in contracting!

(I do like to over react)

diseasex
12th November 2015, 17:19
Well I just didn't know where to post it - then again, if this stuff is true - there is no future in contracting!

(I do like to over react)

Well worse case scenario is plan B. I'm not going back perime, thats for sure

webberg
12th November 2015, 17:24
One of the main recommendations that came out of the Select Committee was that HMRC should liaise more closely with the IR35 Forum to ensure that proper engagement with business and relevant stakeholders was taking place before any decisions were made.

What is this IR35 forum?

https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/ir35-forum

unixman
12th November 2015, 17:40
Those purveying doom-laden stories are usually the same ones who want to sell you insurance against it.

The OP link points to atlantic-umbrella, who are purveying a misery monologue about tax. Clicking another tab on their front page reveals a full range of insurance products available to you, dear buyer, for a payment of merely...

MarkT
12th November 2015, 20:00
Those purveying doom-laden stories are usually the same ones who want to sell you insurance against it.

The OP link points to atlantic-umbrella, who are purveying a misery monologue about tax. Clicking another tab on their front page reveals a full range of insurance products available to you, dear buyer, for a payment of merely...

Thing is - there's a few links to this now, one accountant seems to have completely bought that the whole consultation has been accepted, wholesale.

I still can't see believe this is what will happen, but it's feeling more likely every day....how many of us will go bankrupt?!

GB9
12th November 2015, 20:05
Lisa Contractor Brolly chick posted this yesterday.

northernladuk
12th November 2015, 21:03
Lisa Contractor Brolly chick posted this yesterday.

Chick?? Lol I can't wait for her to see this. Now where is my popcorn. Are we all sitting comfortably..

Zero Liability
12th November 2015, 22:10
Thing is - there's a few links to this now, one accountant seems to have completely bought that the whole consultation has been accepted, wholesale.

I still can't see believe this is what will happen, but it's feeling more likely every day....how many of us will go bankrupt?!

This (http://forums.contractoruk.com/future-contracting/110214-will-contractors-considered-permanent-employees-after-one-month-site-7.html#post2167096) is an alternative interpretation of what it could all be about.

Pondlife
12th November 2015, 22:46
APSCo would pretty much agree with Lisa

APSCo responds to leaked IR35 proposals (http://www.apsco.org/article/apsco-responds-to-leaked-ir35-proposals-2415.aspx)

MarkT
12th November 2015, 23:32
Okay - so what's to stop us signing a waiver to say we will bear responsibility for any tax incurred and will declare as outside of SDC? How would the test be proven? Surely large companies will defend any decision they take and everyone is happy?
We get our reward for our risk
They get a happy flexible, off the books workforce
HMRC get CT @20% and PAYE on the rest.

Any time limit seems slightly arbitrary though.....

And I say again - what's a PSC? Define please?

LisaContractorUmbrella
13th November 2015, 08:43
Lisa Contractor Brolly chick posted this yesterday.

:laugh:laugh That makes me feel quite young - I don't know why

LisaContractorUmbrella
13th November 2015, 08:45
Chick?? Lol I can't wait for her to see this. Now where is my popcorn. Are we all sitting comfortably..

:laugh:laugh I feel like one of the gang now :hug:

LisaContractorUmbrella
13th November 2015, 08:53
Okay - so what's to stop us signing a waiver to say we will bear responsibility for any tax incurred and will declare as outside of SDC? How would the test be proven? Surely large companies will defend any decision they take and everyone is happy?
We get our reward for our risk
They get a happy flexible, off the books workforce
HMRC get CT @20% and PAYE on the rest.

Any time limit seems slightly arbitrary though.....

And I say again - what's a PSC? Define please?

If this all does go ahead and it's a big if - it will all depend where the decision sits to determine SDC and where the liability sits if the wrong decision is made. I am fairly sure that you cannot indemnify or insure against a tax debt so, if the contractor declares no SDC and offers clientco some sort of indemnity but the liability for status determination and therefore the potential tax debt lies with the client, it won't be worth anything.

northernladuk
13th November 2015, 08:57
:laugh:laugh That makes me feel quite young - I don't know why

Me neither.... :)

LisaContractorUmbrella
13th November 2015, 08:59
Me neither.... :)

Harsh :cry2:

pjt
13th November 2015, 09:08
Looks like it really is the end of the world as we know it...:frown.

APSCo blasts (http://www.atlantic-umbrella.com/apsco-blasts-wilful-disregard-for-ir35-recommendations/8444)

Am I missing something? I don't see anything new here.

GB9
13th November 2015, 09:15
:laugh:laugh That makes me feel quite young - I don't know why

Anyone under 50 is a chick in my book.

I think you were correct in one of your earlier posts. The most likely outcome I can see is something contractual between agent and contractor stating that the contractor will pay themselves paye. The agent would then report to hmrc.That would be the least disruptive whilst raising most tax.

Can't see contractors on client books for a whole host of reasons. And most likely not on agency books either. Anything like that would result in lots of ftc and employed consultant roles springing up. Clients would soon get peed off with the outcome.

northernladuk
13th November 2015, 09:55
Anyone under 50 is a chick in my book.
.

Poor Salma Hayek. Loses her chickness in 9 months :(

GB9
13th November 2015, 10:05
Poor Salma Hayek. Loses her chickness in 9 months :(

I can make exceptions as necessary :glasses

LisaContractorUmbrella
13th November 2015, 10:18
Anyone under 50 is a chick in my book.

I think you were correct in one of your earlier posts. The most likely outcome I can see is something contractual between agent and contractor stating that the contractor will pay themselves paye. The agent would then report to hmrc.That would be the least disruptive whilst raising most tax.

Can't see contractors on client books for a whole host of reasons. And most likely not on agency books either. Anything like that would result in lots of ftc and employed consultant roles springing up. Clients would soon get peed off with the outcome.

Then I shall carry my 'chick' title with pride :happy for a while anyway.......

I think the intention will be to pass responsibility for determination to the end client - if SDC is used in the future for IR35, they would really be the only ones to make the call - how can an agency or umbrella company decide whether or not the end client will be retaining the right of SDC? Doesn't make sense and HMRC obviously want the determination moved from the contractor so that would IMHO be logical. I assume that the end client would sign a statement one way or another by putting a tick in an agency form and then a line would be added to the agency reporting requirements which would notify HMRC of the contractor's status; then liability would lie with the end client if they falsified the statement or with the agency if they didn't take the statement or ignored it and with the contractor if they ignored it

WordIsBond
13th November 2015, 11:06
I am fairly sure that you cannot indemnify or insure against a tax debt so, if the contractor declares no SDC and offers clientco some sort of indemnity but the liability for status determination and therefore the potential tax debt lies with the client, it won't be worth anything.
Somebody tell QDOS you can't insure against a tax debt. TLC35, I think they call it.

I don't know how it works, but presumably the contractor is the beneficiary and it pays out to him if he gets hit with an IR35 tax bill. I don't see any reason that the engager couldn't be made the beneficiary instead, if legislation put the engager on the hook.

No engager would accept indemnification from the contractor (too easy for contractor Ltd to fold), but I could see them accepting an insurance policy to cover their liability.

Cost of the insurance could become a point of negotiation between contractor and client.

MarkT
16th November 2015, 11:39
Then I shall carry my 'chick' title with pride :happy for a while anyway.......

I think the intention will be to pass responsibility for determination to the end client - if SDC is used in the future for IR35, they would really be the only ones to make the call - how can an agency or umbrella company decide whether or not the end client will be retaining the right of SDC? Doesn't make sense and HMRC obviously want the determination moved from the contractor so that would IMHO be logical. I assume that the end client would sign a statement one way or another by putting a tick in an agency form and then a line would be added to the agency reporting requirements which would notify HMRC of the contractor's status; then liability would lie with the end client if they falsified the statement or with the agency if they didn't take the statement or ignored it and with the contractor if they ignored it

So this scenario wouldn't necessarily mean the end for contracting, it'd mean we are all caught by IR35. But would we still then keep out T&S? It'd make a huge difference if we were.

Of course things like income shifting etc would end. There'd be no way around shifting dividends, or salaries.

LisaContractorUmbrella
16th November 2015, 11:45
So this scenario wouldn't necessarily mean the end for contracting, it'd mean we are all caught by IR35. But would we still then keep out T&S? It'd make a huge difference if we were.

Of course things like income shifting etc would end. There'd be no way around shifting dividends, or salaries.

No, I genuinely don't think this is the end for contracting because there is a demand for contractors and that demand is growing. I can't read politicians minds (something I shall be eternally grateful for :sick) but it may be that the vast majority inside IR35 would be a reasonable trade off for keeping T&S. I think it's more likely that the test of supervision, direction and control will be applied across the sector as a whole and we'll go from there - so T&S and IR35 will both depend on SDC

MarkT
16th November 2015, 12:40
If we kept T&S and were able to shift salaries (as there are no dividends) then it probably wouldn't kill me. My wife doesn't work as we have three kids, 2 of which have autism, so the killer will be not using her tax rate anymore, well on top of everything else of course.

I am dreading the 24th, hopefully any changes beyond T&S won't take place until tax year 17/18 though....?

LisaContractorUmbrella
16th November 2015, 13:14
If we kept T&S and were able to shift salaries (as there are no dividends) then it probably wouldn't kill me. My wife doesn't work as we have three kids, 2 of which have autism, so the killer will be not using her tax rate anymore, well on top of everything else of course.

I am dreading the 24th, hopefully any changes beyond T&S won't take place until tax year 17/18 though....?

The 25th :smile

MarkT
16th November 2015, 13:18
that makes is all so much better....!