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MarkT
20th November 2015, 23:54
He bloody well is me.

Although I have been thinking - if the only way around this is to have more than one client, we need to band together as contractors, run Ltd's through for three or four of us, and split the dividends/salaries ourselves between us according to our invoices.

If we are on the bench, we resign as a director and become directors again when we get a role. SDC won't matter, T&S won't matter, would we not be consultancies?

There'd need to be some honesty, but I'd be looking to go in with someone, this could ruin my family if I don't find a way around it! :frown

jamesbrown
21st November 2015, 00:18
I'm afraid that won't work. Currently, IR35 is determined on a contract-by-contract basis, and there's no indication that part will be changing. As things stand, so long as you meet the preconditions (e.g. 5%+ shareholding), you're potentially liable, and status will need to be determined on each contract. The point is that clients will have a role in policing status, and most likely in assessing it (directly or concurring), as well as managing a liability, and there's really no obvious way to circumvent that, unless the client is very motivated.

It should be obvious, but they aren't going to put a rule in place w/r to multiple clients that has a very low bar (anyone who pictures doing a few minor gigs on the side is deluded) and there will most likely be a TAAR clause to avoid the sort of TMI you suggest. Obviously, there are clever people that will look for holes, but HMG can achieve what they want (whatever that is) if they are sufficiently determined. Even before any new rules bite, the whole contracting landscape could change quite substantially as clients and agencies begin to preempt any changes.

But let's wait, eh? It's only a few days away, and there should be some more clarity at that point (although don't expect complete clarity).

MarkT
21st November 2015, 00:51
So 3 contractors, all working through 1 ltd company as directors would be treated as a PSC? Damn...

I've been watching the news for the past few weeks and Wednesday seems a long way away!

All I can do is pray, I've got a feeling the game is up....probably still worth going through a ltd as you'd get flat rate vat. But we are basically done for aren't we.

Personally, we may just about make it through, we need to cut spending and I need a better rate in a year, some chance!

jamesbrown
21st November 2015, 01:46
So 3 contractors, all working through 1 ltd company as directors would be treated as a PSC? Damn...

I've been watching the news for the past few weeks and Wednesday seems a long way away!

All I can do is pray, I've got a feeling the game is up....probably still worth going through a ltd as you'd get flat rate vat. But we are basically done for aren't we.

Personally, we may just about make it through, we need to cut spending and I need a better rate in a year, some chance!

The intermediaries legislation is not restricted to a particular corporate structure, and certainly not a "PSC", because it doesn't exist in law. It is concerned with "looking through" an intermediary (using a notional contract) to determine whether a worker would be an employee of their client were it not for the intermediary. There are similar rules on false self-employment for sole traders (w/ different liabilities). There are various possible outcomes at this point, but it may end up being no worse than contracting through agency/umbrella payroll on specific contracts (which is substantially better than being shoehorned into permie pay grades), but with the downside that home-to-work travel is no longer tax free. Obviously, it doesn't look good, but experience suggests that the worst case scenario rarely happens and that enacted legislation rarely works out exactly as intended, especially in this area.

meridian
21st November 2015, 10:12
He bloody well is me.

Although I have been thinking - if the only way around this is to have more than one client, we need to band together as contractors, run Ltd's through for three or four of us, and split the dividends/salaries ourselves between us according to our invoices.

If we are on the bench, we resign as a director and become directors again when we get a role. SDC won't matter, T&S won't matter, would we not be consultancies?

There'd need to be some honesty, but I'd be looking to go in with someone, this could ruin my family if I don't find a way around it! :frown

Dividends are based on your shareholding, not your invoices issued or whether or not you are a director.

You could structure your salaries, but if you pay out the full amount of your net revenue as PAYE them you're no better off than being in a brolly.

WordIsBond
21st November 2015, 13:54
Dividends are based on your shareholding, not your invoices issued or whether or not you are a director.

You could structure your salaries, but if you pay out the full amount of your net revenue as PAYE them you're no better off than being in a brolly.
His idea probably won't work. But I think you could find a way to set up a pool of contractors, say 25, with 4% shareholding each (which makes you IR35 exempt), and get at least some of the proceeds out in dividends rather than PAYE.

You'd have to avoid MSC restrictions. And I think you'd have to end up paying a chunk of income as PAYE to reflect differences in revenue brought in. But I think it could be done. Not going to waste the time to try and think it through until we see what actually happens, though.

meridian
21st November 2015, 14:33
His idea probably won't work. But I think you could find a way to set up a pool of contractors, say 25, with 4% shareholding each (which makes you IR35 exempt), and get at least some of the proceeds out in dividends rather than PAYE.

You'd have to avoid MSC restrictions. And I think you'd have to end up paying a chunk of income as PAYE to reflect differences in revenue brought in. But I think it could be done. Not going to waste the time to try and think it through until we see what actually happens, though.

25 contractors? What are the odds that one of them would want to resign every six months to go on JSA to tide him over and then rejoin once he has another contract? ;-)

WordIsBond
21st November 2015, 15:13
25 contractors? What are the odds that one of them would want to resign every six months to go on JSA to tide him over and then rejoin once he has another contract? ;-)
If you use redeemable shares (such as other employee-owned businesses use), so that you could buy them back from someone who resigns, then he has no shares once he resigns. And he can "want" to rejoin all he wants, but he only gets back in if the existing shareholders are willing to let him.

Anyway, haven't thought it all through. Doesn't make sense until we find out what they are going to do, anyway. And we probably won't find out next week, either. We'll probably get an announcement of a consultation, but no IR35 changes on legislation this year. Could be wrong, of course, they seem in a hurry.

cojak
21st November 2015, 16:35
I would advise considering cutting your cloth in the New Year to suit the new conditions.

If the worse doesn't happen, then you have extra money to spend.

pjt
21st November 2015, 16:55
He's not keeping me awake but he's getting me very angry!
If he succeeds in destroying the contracting market theirs going to be a lot of people severely affected including me.

What I would give to have him in a room for 5 minutes :mad

BrilloPad
21st November 2015, 17:03
What gets me awake, and makes me angry, is reading some contractors WHINE about these changes after they did not to help those hit by retrospective legislation in 2008. And even voraciously criticized using stupid statements like "fair share".

And the belief that these new changes can be challenged via political pressure.

If you are getting angry or losing sleep now, try living with it for 7 years.

You are clearly not cut out for business or to be contractors. Crawl under the permie rock from where you came.

DotasScandal
21st November 2015, 18:30
What gets me awake, and makes me angry, is reading some contractors WHINE about these changes after they did not to help those hit by retrospective legislation in 2008. And even voraciously criticized using stupid statements like "fair share".


Difficult not to agree!!

cojak
21st November 2015, 19:09
And just just so you know, I moderate this forum in the same manner as the HMRC Enquiries forum, so no bitching please.

BrilloPad
21st November 2015, 20:23
But let's wait, eh? It's only a few days away, and there should be some more clarity at that point (although don't expect complete clarity).

I really hope there is no substance to the rumours. Agreed - best to wait.

I think, as usual, it is bully boy scare tactics. The problem is how to fight that.

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 10:43
Ok guys please stop panicking - nothing has happened yet and no amount of worrying will change what is going to happen

HMG had a pretty much unprecedented response to the T&S consultation with lots of organisations both contracting industry and big business giving a multitude of reasons why this is a really bad idea; HMRC may moderate the proposals, they may decide to think about it all for a bit longer, they may scrap the proposal altogether or they may just bring it in in its entirety.

Contractors are needed - this industry has only grown the way it has because of supply and demand and demand has increased because it is now so expensive to employ permies and employers are subject to increased risks of litigation. Pensions auto-enrolment, changes to holiday pay rules, flexible working, Statutory payments etc etc all add up so companies are increasingly looking to a temporary workforce to fill the gaps in their skillset. I think that clientco will be persuaded to cough up for at least some travel costs to be able to keep contractors on their books rather than recruiting permies or workers under FTC's - I could well be wrong but I run a business and, if I need someone for a project for a few weeks, I would be happy to pay 10% more than I paid for the same thing last year just for the convenience.

With regard to the IR35 changes - I think that what was 'leaked' was a consultation document; if that is the case then the consultation will probably not be undertaken until the early part of next year which means that any changes will probably be introduced in 2017 rather than next year. If that is the case then I suggest that as many of you as possible get along to the consultation so that you can give HMRC your views face to face - in a meeting that we had with them this year they said that they believed contractors didn't really care what went on - the 700 responses we ended up sending to them for the T&S consultation will hopefully gone some way to changing their minds but it can't just be a one off. We have to show them that we do care and we have to keep on until they get that there is a big difference between a contractor and a temp!

MarkT
23rd November 2015, 11:43
Ok guys please stop panicking - nothing has happened yet and no amount of worrying will change what is going to happen

HMG had a pretty much unprecedented response to the T&S consultation with lots of organisations both contracting industry and big business giving a multitude of reasons why this is a really bad idea; HMRC may moderate the proposals, they may decide to think about it all for a bit longer, they may scrap the proposal altogether or they may just bring it in in its entirety.

Contractors are needed - this industry has only grown the way it has because of supply and demand and demand has increased because it is now so expensive to employ permies and employers are subject to increased risks of litigation. Pensions auto-enrolment, changes to holiday pay rules, flexible working, Statutory payments etc etc all add up so companies are increasingly looking to a temporary workforce to fill the gaps in their skillset. I think that clientco will be persuaded to cough up for at least some travel costs to be able to keep contractors on their books rather than recruiting permies or workers under FTC's - I could well be wrong but I run a business and, if I need someone for a project for a few weeks, I would be happy to pay 10% more than I paid for the same thing last year just for the convenience.

With regard to the IR35 changes - I think that what was 'leaked' was a consultation document; if that is the case then the consultation will probably not be undertaken until the early part of next year which means that any changes will probably be introduced in 2017 rather than next year. If that is the case then I suggest that as many of you as possible get along to the consultation so that you can give HMRC your views face to face - in a meeting that we had with them this year they said that they believed contractors didn't really care what went on - the 700 responses we ended up sending to them for the T&S consultation will hopefully gone some way to changing their minds but it can't just be a one off. We have to show them that we do care and we have to keep on until they get that there is a big difference between a contractor and a temp!

Why couldn't you have been around on Friday night Lisa? ;-) I've a meeting with my MP next week, just in case. I'll be pushing this hard with him.

It's worth saying, I do agree that the T&S seems incredible. But what's more concerning is the test on SDC.
If that comes in, and we fail, we are then, by default caught by IR35, because we have SDC.

And it doesn't look as if there will be a way to pass the damn thing!

DotasScandal
23rd November 2015, 11:55
in a meeting that we had with them this year they said that they believed contractors didn't really care what went on - the 700 responses we ended up sending to them for the T&S consultation will hopefully gone some way to changing their minds

The scale of the response to the consultation on APNs was also qualified with the term "unprecedented".
The proposals were slammed by CIOT, the Law Society, ICAEW and tons others...
We know how it went down in the end... (https://www.dotas-scandal.org/gauke-performs-magic-trick-transforms-847-responses-into-20-and-lies-to-parliament-in-the-process/)
If anyone needed proof that "consultations" are nowadays largely for show, we'd argue that was it.

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 12:01
Why couldn't you have been around on Friday night Lisa? ;-) I've a meeting with my MP next week, just in case. I'll be pushing this hard with him.

It's worth saying, I do agree that the T&S seems incredible. But what's more concerning is the test on SDC.
If that comes in, and we fail, we are then, by default caught by IR35, because we have SDC.

And it doesn't look as if there will be a way to pass the damn thing!

What happened Friday night :confused:

The SDC test is strange and I can't see it working but only time (and the courts of law) will tell :grin

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 12:02
The scale of the response to the consultation on APNs was also qualified with the term "unprecedented".
The proposals were slammed by CIOT, the Law Society, ICAEW and tons others...
We know how it went down in the end... (https://www.dotas-scandal.org/gauke-performs-magic-trick-transforms-847-responses-into-20-and-lies-to-parliament-in-the-process/)
If anyone needed proof that "consultations" are nowadays largely for show, we'd argue that was it.

You could well be right - it may all be a waste of time in the end but the alternative is to roll over and just take what's thrown at us :frown

DotasScandal
23rd November 2015, 12:08
You could well be right - it may all be a waste of time in the end but the alternative is to roll over and just take what's thrown at us :frown

Not an alternative I am in any way suggesting, Lisa!
By all means bombing them with responses is the way to go.
Just wanted to point out the very recent precedent (that was, it must be said, largely disregarded by Ltd. contractors at the time because, hey, "it's somebody else's problem". Unfortunately it has emboldened the Government in their anti-contractor stance, and now we all suffer)

MarkT
23rd November 2015, 12:08
What happened Friday night :confused:

The SDC test is strange and I can't see it working but only time (and the courts of law) will tell :grin

I created this thread ;-)

MarkT
23rd November 2015, 12:28
Not an alternative I am in any way suggesting, Lisa!
By all means bombing them with responses is the way to go.
Just wanted to point out the very recent precedent (that was, it must be said, largely disregarded by Ltd. contractors at the time because, hey, "it's somebody else's problem". Unfortunately it has emboldened the Government in their anti-contractor stance, and now we all suffer)

I think that unless you used a scheme, and the majority didn't, it was someone else's problem. That's how the world works unfortunately.

This 1 month thing, and the T&S, is different and affects all contractors, freelancers, accountants, Umbrella companies, even cafes and hotels!

I'd expect a much, much larger response to this.

DotasScandal
23rd November 2015, 12:41
I think that unless you used a scheme, and the majority didn't, it was someone else's problem. That's how the world works unfortunately.



"First they came for Montpelier and the S.58 guys, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not with Montpelier.

"Then they came for the DOTAS scheme contractors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not in a DOTAS scheme.

Then they came for the non-DOTAS scheme contractors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not in a contractor scheme.

Then they came for the Ltd contractors, and there was no one left to speak for me."

MarkT
23rd November 2015, 12:45
"First they came for Montpelier and the S.58 guys, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not with Montpelier.

"Then they came for the DOTAS scheme contractors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not in a DOTAS scheme.

Then they came for the non-DOTAS scheme contractors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not in a contractor scheme.

Then they came for the Ltd contractors, and there was no one left to speak for me."

Totally agree

LondonManc
23rd November 2015, 13:13
Doesn't keep me awake because there are no decisions to make until he's made his on Wednesday. Then I decide whether the Tories are as unelectable as Labour or not. Can't see any alternatives and that's the real problem.

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 13:16
I created this thread ;-)

Oh ok :laugh

Fred Bloggs
23rd November 2015, 13:21
Doesn't keep me awake because there are no decisions to make until he's made his on Wednesday. Then I decide whether the Tories are as unelectable as Labour or not. Can't see any alternatives and that's the real problem.

One thingissure for me. As a lifetimetory voter, I will never vote tory again. Ever.

Danglekt
23rd November 2015, 13:28
Its funny, that bloke with the car dealer character as his avatar has gone quiet hasn't he....

BoredBloke
23rd November 2015, 15:29
If he screws up contracting so that there are no contractors, a side effect will be no more agents to deal with contractors - every cloud and all that!

DaveB
23rd November 2015, 15:34
Its funny, that bloke with the car dealer character as his avatar has gone quiet hasn't he....

Nah, he's still flying the flag for Daily Mail readers everywhere, over the in the Terrorism threads.

BolshieBastard
23rd November 2015, 15:57
Ok guys please stop panicking - nothing has happened yet and no amount of worrying will change what is going to happen

HMG had a pretty much unprecedented response to the T&S consultation with lots of organisations both contracting industry and big business giving a multitude of reasons why this is a really bad idea; HMRC may moderate the proposals, they may decide to think about it all for a bit longer, they may scrap the proposal altogether or they may just bring it in in its entirety.

Contractors are needed - this industry has only grown the way it has because of supply and demand and demand has increased because it is now so expensive to employ permies and employers are subject to increased risks of litigation. Pensions auto-enrolment, changes to holiday pay rules, flexible working, Statutory payments etc etc all add up so companies are increasingly looking to a temporary workforce to fill the gaps in their skillset. I think that clientco will be persuaded to cough up for at least some travel costs to be able to keep contractors on their books rather than recruiting permies or workers under FTC's - I could well be wrong but I run a business and, if I need someone for a project for a few weeks, I would be happy to pay 10% more than I paid for the same thing last year just for the convenience.

With regard to the IR35 changes - I think that what was 'leaked' was a consultation document; if that is the case then the consultation will probably not be undertaken until the early part of next year which means that any changes will probably be introduced in 2017 rather than next year. If that is the case then I suggest that as many of you as possible get along to the consultation so that you can give HMRC your views face to face - in a meeting that we had with them this year they said that they believed contractors didn't really care what went on - the 700 responses we ended up sending to them for the T&S consultation will hopefully gone some way to changing their minds but it can't just be a one off. We have to show them that we do care and we have to keep on until they get that there is a big difference between a contractor and a temp!

I love you Lisa. Can I have your babies? :hug::smokin

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 16:04
I love you Lisa. Can I have your babies? :hug::smokin

Right back at you BB :hug: (I am sure the baby thing is well meant but I think the laws of nature could be against us with that one.......for sooo many reasons!)

DaveB
23rd November 2015, 16:05
I love you Lisa. Can I have your babies? :hug::smokin

WHS +1

Can I get an early nomination in for Forum Advisor / Personality of The Year?

WordIsBond
23rd November 2015, 16:08
Ok guys please stop panicking - nothing has happened yet and no amount of worrying will change what is going to happen

This can't be right. I've already brought in world peace, stopped global warming, solved world hunger, and stopped a Lab/SNP coalition government by worrying about those things.

What's that you say? Oh.

Well, one out of four wasn't bad.

LondonManc
23rd November 2015, 16:12
Right back at you BB :hug: (I am sure the baby thing is well meant but I think the laws of nature could be against us with that one.......for sooo many reasons!)

BB's only teasing. He had a hysterectomy last year.

Great update by the way Lisa :hug:

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 16:12
WHS +1

Can I get an early nomination in for Forum Advisor / Personality of The Year?

Aw shucks :emb You guys are so sweet :hug:

LondonManc
23rd November 2015, 16:13
One thingissure for me. As a lifetimetory voter, I will never vote tory again. Ever.

Depending upon the AS or already?

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 16:13
BB's only teasing. He had a hysterectomy last year.

Great update by the way Lisa :hug:

:laugh:laugh Thanks LM :hug:

WordIsBond
23rd November 2015, 16:14
So now we have BB, DaveB, and MarkT, who wanted to see Lisa on Friday night. Seems like the other two are ready to go to a higher level of commitment than Mark....
:popcorn:

LondonManc
23rd November 2015, 16:15
So now we have BB, DaveB, and MarkT, who wanted to see Lisa on Friday night. Seems like the other two are ready to go to a higher level of commitment than Mark....
:popcorn:

As long as I get my hug, they can battle it out for her after that. I'm happily married.

PurpleGorilla
23rd November 2015, 16:15
I wouldn't say I'm being kept awake, but I am struggling to understand the speculation.

For example FRS. Do you charge VAT if SDC/IR35 caught.

It makes the brain hurt.

DaveB
23rd November 2015, 16:18
I wouldn't say I'm being kept awake, but I am struggling to understand the speculation.

For example FRS. Do you charge VAT if SDC/IR35 caught.

It makes the brain hurt.

At the moment, yes you do as deemed payments are made from YourCo. to you, less allowances.

How they intend to work that if the end client or agency are responsible for operating PAYE on payments to You / YourCo. I have no idea :freaky:

LisaContractorUmbrella
23rd November 2015, 16:20
So now we have BB, DaveB, and MarkT, who wanted to see Lisa on Friday night. Seems like the other two are ready to go to a higher level of commitment than Mark....
:popcorn:

:rollin::rollin::rollin::rollin:

On a serious note (sorry) - I've had a thought - we usually get invited to these consultations at HMRC HQ - shall I see if I can sneak a couple of you in so that HMRC can hear it from the horses' mouth??

BrilloPad
23rd November 2015, 16:21
I am just worried that lube may not be available.

DaveB
23rd November 2015, 16:27
:rollin::rollin::rollin::rollin:

On a serious note (sorry) - I've had a thought - we usually get invited to these consultations at HMRC HQ - shall I see if I can sneak a couple of you in so that HMRC can hear it from the horses' mouth??

I'd be up for it :D

And for a trip to HMRC :rolleyes:

DaveB
23rd November 2015, 16:28
So now we have BB, DaveB, and MarkT, who wanted to see Lisa on Friday night. Seems like the other two are ready to go to a higher level of commitment than Mark....
:popcorn:

Christmas do should be interesting :D

PurpleGorilla
23rd November 2015, 16:29
How they intend to work that if the end client or agency are responsible for operating PAYE on payments to You / YourCo. I have no idea :freaky:

Exactly. It's like dropping into a tank full of sharks. They are all ready to eat you, but Osborne has put so many in the tank that it is completely out of control. Their jaws interlock in the frenzy and you don't know which if any will bite you. Maybe some maybe all, who knows!

Don't be shark bait!

midlandlass
23rd November 2015, 16:35
So now we have BB, DaveB, and MarkT, who wanted to see Lisa on Friday night. Seems like the other two are ready to go to a higher level of commitment than Mark....
:popcorn:
Lisa, I think you have a new business venture; IT Contractor Dating!!! :yay:

TestMangler
23rd November 2015, 16:40
Lisa, I think you have a new business venture; IT Contractor Dating!!! :yay:

You see no flaw in that plan ? :laugh

Danglekt
23rd November 2015, 16:43
:rollin::rollin::rollin::rollin:

On a serious note (sorry) - I've had a thought - we usually get invited to these consultations at HMRC HQ - shall I see if I can sneak a couple of you in so that HMRC can hear it from the horses' mouth??

I think walking round their offices with a large cross, flicking water at them and shouting "BEGONE TO WHENCE YOU CAME!" "EXPELIARMUS!" or "YOU-SHALL-NOT-PASS!" might be quite good fun.

LondonManc
23rd November 2015, 16:46
You see no flaw in that plan ? :laugh

Depends what sort of lady Lisa is.

LisaContractorUmbrella
24th November 2015, 07:48
I'd be up for it :D

And for a trip to HMRC :rolleyes:

Oh honestly, you boys are incorrigible :laugh

As soon as we get notice of a consultation date I'll let you know

LisaContractorUmbrella
24th November 2015, 07:50
I think walking round their offices with a large cross, flicking water at them and shouting "BEGONE TO WHENCE YOU CAME!" "EXPELIARMUS!" or "YOU-SHALL-NOT-PASS!" might be quite good fun.

It's less Harry Potter and more Lord of the Rings - you remember the bit with the giant spider........:eek

LisaContractorUmbrella
24th November 2015, 07:52
Depends what sort of lady Lisa is.

That's all you need to know :smile

northernladuk
24th November 2015, 08:56
Depends what sort of lady Lisa is.

That's where you've made your first mistake;)

LondonManc
24th November 2015, 09:05
That's all you need to know :smile

Lady Chatterley, Lady Sonia, Lady C????


That's where you've made your first mistake;)

Leading the witness dear boy. :smokin

MarkT
24th November 2015, 09:10
So now we have BB, DaveB, and MarkT, who wanted to see Lisa on Friday night. Seems like the other two are ready to go to a higher level of commitment than Mark....
:popcorn:

I'm a lightweight, although a soothing voice would have helped. My wife just tells me to shut up and stop buying cars...:laugh

WordIsBond
24th November 2015, 09:15
Lisa, I think you have a new business venture; IT Contractor Dating!!! :yay:
I suppose that would allow this discussion to stay in a "professional" forum?

LisaContractorUmbrella
24th November 2015, 09:15
That's where you've made your first mistake;)

And that may be yours :spank: Did I mention the black belt in nagging?:talk:

MrMarkyMark
24th November 2015, 09:16
I thought this thread was about George Osbourne keeping people awake :eyes

LisaContractorUmbrella
24th November 2015, 09:16
Lady Chatterley, Lady Sonia, Lady C????



Leading the witness dear boy. :smokin

Power is like being a lady... if you have to tell people you are, you aren't. - Margaret Thatcher

LisaContractorUmbrella
24th November 2015, 09:17
I thought this thread was about George Osbourne keeping people awake :eyes

When have you ever known a CUK thread stay on track :eyes

DaveB
24th November 2015, 12:25
I thought this thread was about George Osbourne keeping people awake :eyes

You've not been here long, have you :laugh

MrMarkyMark
24th November 2015, 12:38
No, I meant it seemed to have switched to Lisa keeping people awake :laugh