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dynamicsaxcontractor
25th November 2015, 08:42
:popcorn:

Let the farce begin and lets see what the damage is going to be, roll on 12:30.

Murder1
25th November 2015, 09:22
:popcorn:

Let the farce begin and lets see what the damage is going to be, roll on 12:30.

Let's hope there are some concrete details to work with after today, however they slice it until we know where the lines are being drawn we won't know how best to respond/position ourselves.

ecc83
25th November 2015, 09:49
The anticipation is literally killing m,

pjt
25th November 2015, 09:59
Let's hope there are some concrete details to work with after today, however they slice it until we know where the lines are being drawn we won't know how best to respond/position ourselves.

That would be nice! The sooner we know for sure how bad the attacks going to be the sooner we can at least plan for the future (if we have one left).

MarillionFan
25th November 2015, 09:59
The anticipation is literally killing m,

50% tax on hit men.

LucidDementia
25th November 2015, 10:09
The sooner 12.30 rolls around the sooner this lunacy can calm down. :)

LisaContractorUmbrella
25th November 2015, 10:14
Nice cup of tea and a biscuit - put your feet up and you can watch it here Umbrella Company News - All Umbrella Companies Are Equal (http://www.allumbrellacompaniesareequal.com/blog/watch-the-autumn-statement-2015-1230pm-today-as2015contractors)

Admit it aren't we all going to be just the teeny disappointed if nothing really happens :ohwell

MrWebDev
25th November 2015, 10:16
12.30 can't come soon enough.

A reporter from the FT that was on BBC Breakfast briefly highlighted the issues that contractors could face in todays statement, I'm 99% sure it's the first time I've heard anything mentioned about it on mainstream TV.

javadude
25th November 2015, 10:53
I'm expecting some vague statement about things that will be in another consultation, ie not much more detail that we know already.

Eirikur
25th November 2015, 10:54
75% Tax on agency margins

chopper
25th November 2015, 11:01
The anticipation is literally killing m,

spoiler alert.

M was killed in Skyfall, but there is a new M in Spectre and I doubt he is bothered in the slightest about the potential tax plight of contractors, given that he'll be a permie.

Andy Hallett
25th November 2015, 12:06
75% Tax on agency margins

Thats my definition of a contractor!

webberg
25th November 2015, 14:00
3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As
confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel
and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an
umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted
for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation
applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.

extract from Treasury Blue Book today

midlandlass
25th November 2015, 14:52
We have received the following information from our contact at HMRC with regards to IR35:

"Intermediaries legislation - IR35

As you know the government announced at the Summer Budget that HMRC would engage with stakeholders over the summer about the best way to reform the intermediaries legislation (IR35). A discussion document was published on 17 July and HMRC received over 160 written responses in addition to 14 roundtables with stakeholders.

The government is considering responses to the discussion document. The government’s objective as set out in the discussion document is to find a solution that protects the Exchequer and improves fairness in the system without creating disproportionate burdens on business, or widening the scope of the rules."

jpdw
25th November 2015, 20:23
3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As
confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel
and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an
umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted
for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation
applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.

extract from Treasury Blue Book today

So a legal definition of a PSC will be forthcoming.....?

midlandlass
25th November 2015, 20:25
I think that might be wishful thinking! Hopefully the 9th will shed some light on it all.

WordIsBond
25th November 2015, 20:27
So a legal definition of a PSC will be forthcoming.....?
LOL. If they could figure out how to do that, without catching people they don't want to catch, it would have been done years ago, and IR35 would have been replaced with something workable.

jpdw
25th November 2015, 20:30
I think that might be wishful thinking! Hopefully the 9th will shed some light on it all.

Well if they don't define it, wouldn't it be rather hard to enforce?

midlandlass
25th November 2015, 20:33
Well if they don't define it, wouldn't it be rather hard to enforce?

A bit like the definition of SDC, all a mystery it seems even to the people with the power!

jamesbrown
25th November 2015, 20:42
Well if they don't define it, wouldn't it be rather hard to enforce?

No, not at all. Does IR35 require a definition of a PSC? There will be no legal definition of a PSC forthcoming. It will be no more complicated than enforcing IR35, i.e. caught = no T&S relief (on a contract-by-contract basis). This will continue to apply when IR35 is reformed.

midlandlass
25th November 2015, 20:51
No, not at all. Does IR35 require a definition of a PSC? There will be no legal definition of a PSC forthcoming. It will be no more complicated than enforcing IR35, i.e. caught = no T&S relief (on a contract-by-contract basis). This will continue to apply when IR35 is reformed.

The big issue is how they are going to implement the SDC test. We got legal opinion on the proposal which said SDC could be argued either way as there is no true definition....

jamesbrown
25th November 2015, 20:58
The big issue is how they are going to implement the SDC test. We got legal opinion on the proposal which said SDC could be argued either way as there is no true definition....

As is currently the case for IR35. In the absence of a statutory employment test, SDC will be interpreted in much the same way as D&C is currently interpreted (with emphasis on the "how" in all likelihood). The primary risk won't be in a tax tribunal finding against you in terms of SDC (any more than currently applies for D&C or the right thereof), but it will render RoS and MoO invalid. Rather, the primary risk will be on the role of the client in judging whether SDC applies and any associated liability. So the details of the test could be more or less important depending on the role of the client and any associated liabilities.

Zero Liability
25th November 2015, 21:29
I think all that's been avoided is seeing this come in by April 2016, when in reality there was probably little prospect of this anyway, but the T&S changes, which will be effective as of then, all but confirm they will be making bigger changes later down the line.

jamesbrown
25th November 2015, 21:41
I think all that's been avoided is seeing this come in by April 2016, when in reality there was probably little prospect of this anyway, but the T&S changes, which will be effective as of then, all but confirm they will be making bigger changes later down the line.

Definitely that (and any deferral is good news), but there's perhaps a slim chance Gideon will slip back into "listening mode". I assume they delayed because the representations made, largely in response to the newspaper articles rather than the discussion and consultation, were sufficient to provide some cause for concern, whether about Gov't departments or something else. I see they're aiming to reduce the use of contractors in the public sector by 20%. As you say, definitely a deferral, but there's hope it may be more; we should know in a few weeks (just a guess) when the IR35 consultation is published.

supersteamer
25th November 2015, 21:55
Working away during the week could now add many extra thousands to your potential liability for a genuine mistake on IR35 above what was already the case. Given the haze of subjective wooliness of SDC/IR35 there is no way most can ever be sure this won't hit them (possibly years later).

I wonder if (a) HMRC will start focusing IR35 investigations on well travelled LTDs with large T&S claims as they will now be even riper fruit, and (b) will IR35 insurance providers extend tax loss coverage to retrospectively disallowed T&S?

Guess we'll have to see what happens on the 9th.

SueEllen
25th November 2015, 23:25
Definitely that (and any deferral is good news), but there's perhaps a slim chance Gideon will slip back into "listening mode". I assume they delayed because the representations made, largely in response to the newspaper articles rather than the discussion and consultation, were sufficient to provide some cause for concern, whether about Gov't departments or something else. I see they're aiming to reduce the use of contractors in the public sector by 20%. As you say, definitely a deferral, but there's hope it may be more; we should know in a few weeks (just a guess) when the IR35 consultation is published.

They have been trying to reduce the use of contractors in the public sector since Blair was in government.

The fact that they have no idea how do employment contracts to prevent those they train and skill up from leaving, and pay them poorly means they will never get the skilled staff they need regardless of the field.

Danglekt
26th November 2015, 09:29
As is currently the case for IR35. In the absence of a statutory employment test, SDC will be interpreted in much the same way as D&C is currently interpreted (with emphasis on the "how" in all likelihood). The primary risk won't be in a tax tribunal finding against you in terms of SDC (any more than currently applies for D&C or the right thereof), but it will render RoS and MoO invalid. Rather, the primary risk will be on the role of the client in judging whether SDC applies and any associated liability. So the details of the test could be more or less important depending on the role of the client and any associated liabilities.

Just thinking out loud...which is often a bad idea...

But what if I had a contract which indemnified the client from the associated liabilities, along the lines of - if client Co is investigated and found liable, all outstanding taxes in relation to the contract can be claimed from myCo

Is that viable?

LisaContractorUmbrella
26th November 2015, 10:20
Just thinking out loud...which is often a bad idea...

But what if I had a contract which indemnified the client from the associated liabilities, along the lines of - if client Co is investigated and found liable, all outstanding taxes in relation to the contract can be claimed from myCo

Is that viable?

It will all depend on how everything is worded and who holds the responsibility for making the determination - if it's the end client then I'm not sure an indemnity would work

jamesbrown
26th November 2015, 11:27
Is that viable?

It depends. The leaked information pointed to an MSC-style debt transfer provision. As long as HMRC have the ability to collect from anywhere in the chain, a liability remains on everyone in the chain. As a minimum, some form of insurance policy would be required (a tiny YourCo is hardly any insurance), but this would not eliminate all risk for a client. I could envisage this working in some cases if the client were completely onside w/r to the outcomes of any ESI test.

suityou01
26th November 2015, 12:03
Precisely. Trying to boil the frog too quickly. We just need a few people in high places to cotton on what this means for businesses bottom line and this will fold.

Businesses have to engage consultancies instead of contractors. Their bottom line is hit hard. Consultancies do well. PI firms go bust. Mass layoffs of permies. Greater unemployment. Bad news for call me Dave.

Just think it through. This cannot and will not go through as is, or the tulip will hit the fan.

:smokin

Waldorf
26th November 2015, 13:20
Just thinking out loud...which is often a bad idea...

But what if I had a contract which indemnified the client from the associated liabilities, along the lines of - if client Co is investigated and found liable, all outstanding taxes in relation to the contract can be claimed from myCo

Is that viable?

An indemnity from a PSC would be worth the paper it was written on.