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LisaContractorUmbrella
25th November 2015, 14:10
Travel and Subsistence

The Chancellor made the following announcement today:

3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.
April 2016.

The text is at chapter 3.20 in the Blue Book - follow the link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479749/52229_Blue_Book_PU1865_Web_Accessible.pdf

Draft legislation will be published on 9 December.

Intermediaries legislation - IR35

As you know the government announced at the Summer Budget that HMRC would engage with stakeholders over the summer about the best way to reform the intermediaries legislation (IR35). A discussion document was published on 17 July and HMRC received over 160 written responses in addition to 14 roundtables with stakeholders.

The government is considering responses to the discussion document. The government’s objective as set out in the discussion document is to find a solution that protects the Exchequer and improves fairness in the system without creating disproportionate burdens on business, or widening the scope of the rules.

MarkT
25th November 2015, 14:12
Travel and Subsistence

The Chancellor made the following announcement today:

3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.
April 2016.

The text is at chapter 3.20 in the Blue Book - follow the link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479749/52229_Blue_Book_PU1865_Web_Accessible.pdf

Draft legislation will be published on 9 December.

Intermediaries legislation - IR35

As you know the government announced at the Summer Budget that HMRC would engage with stakeholders over the summer about the best way to reform the intermediaries legislation (IR35). A discussion document was published on 17 July and HMRC received over 160 written responses in addition to 14 roundtables with stakeholders.

The government is considering responses to the discussion document. The government’s objective as set out in the discussion document is to find a solution that protects the Exchequer and improves fairness in the system without creating disproportionate burdens on business, or widening the scope of the rules.

So, in other words, we flew a kite, it was shot down by the UK Contractor Air Force, so now we are off to Toys R Us to buy another one, with a laser. See you in April...?

dmini
25th November 2015, 14:17
so does that mean "those caught by IR35 and using PSCs" or something wider?

eek
25th November 2015, 14:47
so does that mean "those caught by IR35 and using PSCs" or something wider?

For the T&S stuff yes just using a PSC and caught by IR35. Of course what today is outside IR35 may not be the case after the review of the Intermediaries legislation - IR35. But that's a battle for another day.

TheFaQQer
25th November 2015, 14:57
so does that mean "those caught by IR35 and using PSCs" or something wider?

And umbrella users as well.

So not good news for umbrella users or those inside IR35 who incur travel expenses.

mudskipper
25th November 2015, 15:04
And umbrella users as well.

So not good news for umbrella users or those inside IR35 who incur travel expenses.

But good news for the rest of us. At least for now :)

LisaContractorUmbrella
25th November 2015, 15:07
And umbrella users as well.

So not good news for umbrella users or those inside IR35 who incur travel expenses.

It all depends what 'outside' IR35 will eventually mean - SDC from the end client........

jamesbrown
25th November 2015, 15:12
It all depends what 'outside' IR35 will eventually mean - SDC from the end client........

Definitely. Also, this would tend to push some umbrella users to PSCs, chancing IR35 when they're really better off with an umbrella. So, I suspect something will happen on IR35 for April 2016 (i.e. an announcement of intent). Overall, I think this was a sensible move, because T&S based on SDC would've preempted the IR35 reforms to come, but I wouldn't expect any great changes in approach. It's a stay of execution, perhaps, but it doesn't change anything fundamentally. Much better than expected, but the worst is still to come.

northernladuk
25th November 2015, 15:22
Definitely. Also, this would tend to push some umbrella users to PSCs, chancing IR35 when they're really better off with an umbrella. So, I suspect something will happen on IR35 for April 2016 (i.e. an announcement of intent). Overall, I think this was a sensible move, because T&S based on SDC would've preempted the IR35 reforms to come, but I wouldn't expect any great changes in approach. It's a stay of execution, perhaps, but it doesn't change anything fundamentally. Much better than expected, but the worst is still to come.

Oh more newbies then!! Great

Waldorf
25th November 2015, 15:24
The removal of T&S effectively puts the final nail in the coffin for umbrella companies. Many brollies will of course start the process of trying to move their clients to PSC's. Many will, so they may salvage something, but most will go permie or via the agency.

Of course an umbrella guiding clients to go limited will contravene the MSC rules! Of course many brollies will at best ignore this or at worst be unaware of what MSC is [emoji33]

Lastly it is another case of government not thinking this through, they have a problem with too many contractors working through PSC's, so what do they to, encourage thousands of brolly users to go limited! They will then want to block this off in a few years, or even months.

jamesbrown
25th November 2015, 15:29
Lastly it is another case of government not thinking this through, they have a problem with too many contractors working through PSC's, so what do they to, encourage thousands of brolly users to go limited! They will then want to block this off in a few years, or even months.

Yeah, you have to wonder about that. It isn't as though they're unaware of this (hence the changes between discussion and consultation of the T&S). I guess they're willing to accept the risk for a short period on the basis that IR35 is a better disincentive against TMI than nothing and it will be reformed very shortly, at which point the umbrellas may ultimately win.

Crossroads
25th November 2015, 15:29
I disagree Waldorf. If IR35 caught and using a brolly today then moving to a Ltd and still being IR35 caught won't make much difference will it? Am I missing something?

DaveB
25th November 2015, 15:42
I disagree Waldorf. If IR35 caught and using a brolly today then moving to a Ltd and still being IR35 caught won't make much difference will it? Am I missing something?

If you are using a (conventional) brolly you are effectivly IR35 caught anyway. You could move to Ltd and then be outside on the same contract. If you are still IR35 caught as Ltd then you might be a little better off as you wont be paying the brolly fee's but may be paying for an accountant.

LisaContractorUmbrella
25th November 2015, 15:44
The removal of T&S effectively puts the final nail in the coffin for umbrella companies. Many brollies will of course start the process of trying to move their clients to PSC's. Many will, so they may salvage something, but most will go permie or via the agency.

Of course an umbrella guiding clients to go limited will contravene the MSC rules! Of course many brollies will at best ignore this or at worst be unaware of what MSC is [emoji33]

Lastly it is another case of government not thinking this through, they have a problem with too many contractors working through PSC's, so what do they to, encourage thousands of brolly users to go limited! They will then want to block this off in a few years, or even months.

Not necessarily. About half our contractors don't claim expenses any way and many are with us even though they could work legitimately outside IR35 just for ease of use

LisaContractorUmbrella
25th November 2015, 15:47
Yeah, you have to wonder about that. It isn't as though they're unaware of this (hence the changes between discussion and consultation of the T&S). I guess they're willing to accept the risk for a short period on the basis that IR35 is a better disincentive against TMI than nothing and it will be reformed very shortly, at which point the umbrellas may ultimately win.

What I've never been able to understand is that umbrella companies are easy for HMRC to police - they have thousands of contractors all in one place and RTI and agency reporting means they know who's doing what, where and with whom - by encouraging a move to PSC's they're just making their own job more difficult :eyes

Crossroads
25th November 2015, 15:47
Agree Dave. But if you are outside IR35 then you are perhaps using a brolly for convenience. If anything I see brollies flourishing... I suspect I would use one if IR35 caught, and no doubt the forthcoming review will aim to catch more by changing the rules.

colinrobinson
25th November 2015, 15:50
Travel and Subsistence

The Chancellor made the following announcement today:

3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.
April 2016.

The text is at chapter 3.20 in the Blue Book - follow the link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479749/52229_Blue_Book_PU1865_Web_Accessible.pdf

Draft legislation will be published on 9 December.

Intermediaries legislation - IR35

As you know the government announced at the Summer Budget that HMRC would engage with stakeholders over the summer about the best way to reform the intermediaries legislation (IR35). A discussion document was published on 17 July and HMRC received over 160 written responses in addition to 14 roundtables with stakeholders.

The government is considering responses to the discussion document. The government’s objective as set out in the discussion document is to find a solution that protects the Exchequer and improves fairness in the system without creating disproportionate burdens on business, or widening the scope of the rules.



There was a question raised a while back whether mid week hotel costs (wholly for business) was outside of travel and subsistence. was this ever clarified ?

LisaContractorUmbrella
25th November 2015, 15:52
There was a question raised a while back whether mid week hotel costs (wholly for business) was outside of travel and subsistence. was this ever clarified ?

Accommodation is seen as being part of travel and subsistence

colinrobinson
25th November 2015, 15:59
Accommodation is seen as being part of travel and subsistence

Cheers With @15k annual spent on accommodation to support long distance contracting, its a deciding factor for me.


If we all started to bill clients as rate plus Expenses like it was in the old days, would they not be able to claim back the expenses as a true cost to their business. They would not be caught by any intermediate legislation. Id then be happy to use umbrella.

jamesbrown
25th November 2015, 16:00
What I've never been able to understand is that umbrella companies are easy for HMRC to police - they have thousands of contractors all in one place and RTI and agency reporting means they know who's doing what, where and with whom - by encouraging a move to PSC's they're just making their own job more difficult :eyes

As I say, I think this will be temporary, the better of two evils if you like. Either they had to introduce knee-jerk reform of IR35, either directly or preempting it with a SDC test (for example) in the T&S legislation, or they had to slightly tighten the status quo (by retaining T&S subject to IR35) with the risk of a move between umbrellas and PSCs. I don't think that will be tolerated for long. Watch this space for IR35 changes. The next big indication will be the draft FB16 clauses on Dec 9, which should refer to the existing Intermediaries legislation and nothing more sinister.

b0redom
25th November 2015, 16:01
Accommodation is seen as being part of travel and subsistence

What about if I'm working in, say Farnborough, and I need to go to Wales for a week to support some server installs. Assuming I'm IR35 caught (or working through a brolly for convenience), I realise I can't claim for my commute to Farnborough, but if ClientCo say that I am needed onsite in Wales, can I claim for that?

mudskipper
25th November 2015, 16:06
What about if I'm working in, say Farnborough, and I need to go to Wales for a week to support some server installs. Assuming I'm IR35 caught (or working through a brolly for convenience), I realise I can't claim for my commute to Farnborough, but if ClientCo say that I am needed onsite in Wales, can I claim for that?

In the consultation doc, it referred (I paraphrase) to the main place of work for the employment, so your trip to Wales would be allowed.

b0redom
25th November 2015, 16:19
Top banana. Thanks. I'm LTD (and outside IR35) anyway, just interested.

VectraMan
25th November 2015, 16:25
If you are using a (conventional) brolly you are effectivly IR35 caught anyway.

Except now there's a difference. You can be outside IR35 but paying all your PAYE with an umbrella but still able to claim T&S, and inside IR35 paying all your PAYE with an umbrella but not able to claim T&S. Umbrella contractors probably have no idea of their IR35 status because it's not relevant to them, so will they all now need to get contract reviews and start worrying about going to Christmas parties and all the other nonsense? Will the umbrella companies become liable for all this?

WordIsBond
25th November 2015, 16:30
So, in other words, we flew a kite, it was shot down by the UK Contractor Air Force, so now we are off to Toys R Us to buy another one, with a laser. See you in April...?
No. It was shot down by UK PLC, who said, "Georgie boy, if you make us put our contractors on payroll you will never be prime minister, and we may even fund a new party since Labour is committing slow suicide and you've become new Labour. We've about had it with all your innovations with dividend tax, living wage, apprenticeship levies, etc. Every new idea you come up with we're the ones you expect to pay."

So their bright idea of putting contractors on payroll went down in flames, and they don't have any other bright ideas.

That and the fact that they may have finally realised with the dividend tax they've already achieved half of what they wanted to gain anyway.

But they have to do something about ER because it lets people sidestep the dividend tax on a nice little sum. And they don't want to zap ER entirely because they want it there to encourage entrepreneurs. And it's tricky. People invested, took risks, with the understanding that ER was going to be there and that they would be able to do really nicely out of it if they succeeded. Now, if they take it away, those people get shafted. So it is a little tricky to take it away entirely for existing companies, so they need longer to figure out what they will do.

Which makes everything very awkward. If only they could define a PSC in legislation, they could take ER away for PSCs. It's quite the problem for them, because surely they should be able to grab that £450 million or whatever it is one way or another.

TheFaQQer
25th November 2015, 17:04
Except now there's a difference. You can be outside IR35 but paying all your PAYE with an umbrella but still able to claim T&S, and inside IR35 paying all your PAYE with an umbrella but not able to claim T&S. Umbrella contractors probably have no idea of their IR35 status because it's not relevant to them, so will they all now need to get contract reviews and start worrying about going to Christmas parties and all the other nonsense? Will the umbrella companies become liable for all this?

If you're using an umbrella, then IR35 doesn't apply at all because you're an employee.

So there's nothing else for the employee to worry about getting contract reviews etc. (they could do, of course, for a commercial review), and nothing else for the umbrella to be liable for.

VectraMan
25th November 2015, 17:06
No. It was shot down by UK PLC, who said, "Georgie boy, if you make us put our contractors on payroll you will never be prime minister, and we may even fund a new party since Labour is committing slow suicide and you've become new Labour.

Probably more likely that it was a work of complete fiction in the first place.

northernladuk
25th November 2015, 17:06
In the consultation doc, it referred (I paraphrase) to the main place of work for the employment, so your trip to Wales would be allowed.

I was hoping there would be something in the consultation about a pot of money people can claim from for having to travel across the border to Wales to work.. A bit like the Victim Support thing.

No2politics
25th November 2015, 17:22
I was hoping there would be something in the consultation about a pot of money people can claim from for having to travel across the border to Wales to work.. A bit like the Victim Support thing.

You must be happy with the announcement or lack of it today, after all your doomsday posts!?

WordIsBond
25th November 2015, 20:30
Probably more likely that it was a work of complete fiction in the first place.
Maybe. There were some interesting parallels between the leaks and the discussion document.

That could mean the leaks were just someone misinterpreting the discussion document. But it could also mean they were floating a trial balloon to see the response, which is a tried and tested government technique.

And it would be strange for both the DM and the Guardian to make the same mistakes at the same time.

Yonmons
26th November 2015, 08:03
The removal of T&S effectively puts the final nail in the coffin for umbrella companies. Many brollies will of course start the process of trying to move their clients to PSC's. Many will, so they may salvage something, but most will go permie or via the agency.

.

I already got an email off my Brollly "Paystream" last night with a survey, based on the loss of T&S, asking basically if they were considered essentail to me Answer YES, and Have I considered a PSC.

Standing by for a phone call !

I will ride this GIG I am on out until April then thats me done, no more 108 miles a day round trip commute, or away from home 13hrs with 9hrs on site.

local work only accepted from now on.

Waldorf
26th November 2015, 08:10
I already got an email off my Brollly "Paystream" last night with a survey, based on the loss of T&S, asking basically if they were considered essentail to me Answer YES, and Have I considered a PSC.

Standing by for a phone call !

I will ride this GIG I am on out until April then thats me done, no more 108 miles a day round trip commute, or away from home 13hrs with 9hrs on site.

local work only accepted from now on.

I guessed this would/will happen. By pushing you towards a limited company they are at risk of breaking the MSC rules, however not very surprising as Paystream were a MSC before the rules changed.

SueEllen
26th November 2015, 08:34
I already got an email off my Brollly "Paystream" last night with a survey, based on the loss of T&S, asking basically if they were considered essentail to me Answer YES, and Have I considered a PSC.

Standing by for a phone call !

I will ride this GIG I am on out until April then thats me done, no more 108 miles a day round trip commute, or away from home 13hrs with 9hrs on site.

local work only accepted from now on.

Set up a limited and use one of the accountants that are linked to this site.

As long as you keep on top of your expenses weekly and get your contracts reviewed you will be fine.

LisaContractorUmbrella
26th November 2015, 09:07
Cheers With @15k annual spent on accommodation to support long distance contracting, its a deciding factor for me.


If we all started to bill clients as rate plus Expenses like it was in the old days, would they not be able to claim back the expenses as a true cost to their business. They would not be caught by any intermediate legislation. Id then be happy to use umbrella.

I think that's a likely outcome

LisaContractorUmbrella
26th November 2015, 09:10
Except now there's a difference. You can be outside IR35 but paying all your PAYE with an umbrella but still able to claim T&S, and inside IR35 paying all your PAYE with an umbrella but not able to claim T&S. Umbrella contractors probably have no idea of their IR35 status because it's not relevant to them, so will they all now need to get contract reviews and start worrying about going to Christmas parties and all the other nonsense? Will the umbrella companies become liable for all this?

It will be the umbrella company's responsibility to decide whether or not T&S will be allowable which will mean getting a statement from the end client to hold on file for the contractor

MarkT
26th November 2015, 10:20
Everyone is being incredibly down on this, it was more than a let off.

The statement in the blue book doesn't refer to SDC, but it did in the consultation, it doesn't any more. This is good news, perhaps they listened, the fact that they said that only those caught by IR35 are to be denied T&S is better than we expected.

They may well suggest some insane draconian IR35 test in the new consultation, which wouldn't actually be launched until April 16 anyway, but as they've had to water down the T&S legislation, I'd expect them to water than down too.

I'd expect that at some point in 2017, some kind of IR35 restriction will come in, I can't see how SDC could form the crux of that legislation, it's more likely to be a time based thing, 6 or 12 months maybe and still contestable in the courts.

Yeah maybe I'm overly optimistic, but at least we get another 18 months+ of the good stuff :music:

jamesbrown
26th November 2015, 11:22
Everyone is being incredibly down on this, it was more than a let off.

The statement in the blue book doesn't refer to SDC, but it did in the consultation, it doesn't any more. This is good news, perhaps they listened, the fact that they said that only those caught by IR35 are to be denied T&S is better than we expected.

They may well suggest some insane draconian IR35 test in the new consultation, which wouldn't actually be launched until April 16 anyway, but as they've had to water down the T&S legislation, I'd expect them to water than down too.

I'd expect that at some point in 2017, some kind of IR35 restriction will come in, I can't see how SDC could form the crux of that legislation, it's more likely to be a time based thing, 6 or 12 months maybe and still contestable in the courts.

Yeah maybe I'm overly optimistic, but at least we get another 18 months+ of the good stuff :music:

I think you're jumping the gun a little. To quote from the Blue book:


3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.

The Intermediaries legislation is quoted specifically in the context of PSCs. The wording is carefully crafted. We'll have to see what rules apply to umbrellas when they publish the draft clauses on 9 December, but I predict that it will be SDC, as this already applies in other contexts and remains their desired approach. This wording will give some indication of their intentions w/r to IR35 too.

Also, you're wrong on the timing of the consultation. This will be announced soon and will be concluded before the next Budget for an announcement in that context, although I agree that implementation wouldn't then happen until April 2017.

No2politics
26th November 2015, 11:34
I agree markT could have been a lot worse!

MarkT
26th November 2015, 13:38
I think you're jumping the gun a little. To quote from the Blue book:



The Intermediaries legislation is quoted specifically in the context of PSCs. The wording is carefully crafted. We'll have to see what rules apply to umbrellas when they publish the draft clauses on 9 December, but I predict that it will be SDC, as this already applies in other contexts and remains their desired approach. This wording will give some indication of their intentions w/r to IR35 too.

Also, you're wrong on the timing of the consultation. This will be announced soon and will be concluded before the next Budget for an announcement in that context, although I agree that implementation wouldn't then happen until April 2017.

Yeah - I might well be, but I've a feeling it will never be that bad

Snarf
27th November 2015, 13:53
Am I right in thinking that this isn't saying you can't pay t&s through your company... Just that t&s will not be a tax deductible expense?

Snarf
27th November 2015, 13:58
And it would be strange for both the DM and the Guardian to make the same mistakes at the same time.

It only takes one news source to get things wrong and the rest to rip it off...
I suspect the mail did their usual trick of ripping it off the guardian, making it about the bbc/refugees/house prices and then re-published it.

TheFaQQer
27th November 2015, 15:17
It only takes one news source to get things wrong and the rest to rip it off...
I suspect the mail did their usual trick of ripping it off the guardian, making it about the bbc/refugees/house prices and then re-published it.

There were differences in details between the two, that were published at the same time.

TheFaQQer
27th November 2015, 15:17
Am I right in thinking that this isn't saying you can't pay t&s through your company... Just that t&s will not be a tax deductible expense?

Correct - it will be a benefit in kind to the employee, who will have to pay PAYE on the value.

Snarf
27th November 2015, 15:57
Correct - it will be a benefit in kind to the employee, who will have to pay PAYE on the value.

Really?

That seems a bit mental given as a permie I wouldn't have paid any of this myself, the the exception of traveling to the office. If they wanted me at another site for a few days they would have to pay for fuel food and accommodation.

So to get this straight in my head... I travel to liverpool five days a week to a client I stay in a hotel Monday, Tues, Wed, Thurs night and myCo books and pays for the hotel I (The employee) have to pay PAYE on that amount despite not having received any funds from the company for it into my personal account..

And if MyCo pays me for fuel usage to get to liverpool (not from the hotel to client but home to liverpool) I'd have to pay PAYE on that again despite not recieving a benefit - using a private car to get their so actually losing out on the deal (if taxed) due to wear and tear costs)

So its being taxed twice - once as company profit (as its not a tax deductible expense) and again as a BIK?

Im sure I must be misunderstanding that.

I know this has probably been covered else where... Ill go and have a read about now.

jamesbrown
27th November 2015, 16:58
Really?

This is about tax relief on T&S relating to home-to-work travel (ordinary commuting), nothing else. Anything that would ordinarily attract relief as an employee will still attract relief. Additionally, as an umbrella employee, you'll have to wait for the draft clauses in FB 2016 (9 December) to establish any qualifying criteria, such as SDC, that would allow tax relief on H2W travel. As a director of a PSC, you'll also have to wait for those draft clauses, but the AS deferred to the Intermediaries legislation as the qualifying condition.

WordIsBond
28th November 2015, 14:01
There were differences in details between the two, that were published at the same time.
Right. Enough differences to demonstrate either independence or pretty amazing incompetence, probably not plagiarism. Enough similarities to demonstrate a similar source.

That doesn't prove it was intentionally floating a trial balloon. The source may have just been someone talking out of turn. But someone was thinking along the lines in those articles.

LisaContractorUmbrella
30th November 2015, 08:04
Right. Enough differences to demonstrate either independence or pretty amazing incompetence, probably not plagiarism. Enough similarities to demonstrate a similar source.

That doesn't prove it was intentionally floating a trial balloon. The source may have just been someone talking out of turn. But someone was thinking along the lines in those articles.

I think it likely that it was an IR35 consultation document that was leaked - they usually contain ideas that HMG are floating

Contreras
30th November 2015, 08:37
If we all started to bill clients as rate plus Expenses like it was in the old days, would they not be able to claim back the expenses as a true cost to their business. They would not be caught by any intermediate legislation.

Except you would still be liable for tax & NI on the BiK. It doesn't matter who pays the expense (and it's always been this way).


Am I right in thinking that this isn't saying you can't pay t&s through your company... Just that t&s will not be a tax deductible expense?

Exactly.

jamesbrown
30th November 2015, 10:48
I think it likely that it was an IR35 consultation document that was leaked - they usually contain ideas that HMG are floating

FWIW, I think that's exactly right, but I also think the hacks that reported this were out of their depth and that the APSCo interpretation is much more likely, i.e. one month then a test.

eek
30th November 2015, 15:09
In the being sneaky department of HMRC within their email response to my consultation letter.


Thank very much for your previous interest in the consultation exercise for employment intermediaries and relief on travel and subsistence.


As you may be aware, the government confirmed at last week's Autumn Statement it will legislate to restrict relief for travel and subsistence for those engaged through an employment intermediary. The following text was included in the Blue Book, which can be accessed using the attached link:

3.20 Employment intermediaries and tax relief for travel and subsistence – As confirmed at Summer Budget 2015, the government will legislate to restrict tax relief for travel and subsistence expenses for workers engaged through an employment intermediary, such as an umbrella company or a personal service company. Following consultation, relief will be restricted for individuals working through personal service companies where the intermediaries legislation applies. This change will take effect from 6 April 2016.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479749/52229_Blue_Book_PU1865_Web_Accessible.pdf

The proposals have been amended so that those operating through personal service companies will only be effected by the new measure when the intermediaries legislation applies to the contract. Those operating through other employment intermediaries, will be effected when they are under supervision, direction or control in the manner they carry out their work.

LisaContractorUmbrella
30th November 2015, 15:11
You beat me to it Eek - just got the exact same email

eek
30th November 2015, 15:15
You beat me to it Eek - just got the exact same email

Just wanted to emphasis the bit in Red as that isn't part of the Blue Book (the autumn statement for those who don't understand those terms)..

jamesbrown
30th November 2015, 15:27
Just wanted to emphasis the bit in Red as that isn't part of the Blue Book (the autumn statement for those who don't understand those terms)..

Yeah, that's very interesting, and it's exactly what I was looking out for on December 9. I thought it was odd that they didn't provide this clarification in the Blue Book, because there clearly has to be a test for umbrellas, and they were clearly linking the Intermediaries test to non-umbrellas (i.e. PSCs). In other words, this is pretty much as expected, but it's interesting that they've clarified it already rather than wait for December 9.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they will opt for SDC with IR35, but it clearly leans that way and implies that the haven't bought the arguments about SDC being no less subjective.

mudskipper
30th November 2015, 16:34
You beat me to it Eek - just got the exact same email

Me too - I wondered how SDC for brollies will work.

mudskipper
30th November 2015, 16:35
.... and it should be affected! :spel

mudskipper
30th November 2015, 16:38
It also says

"More details will become available on 9 December 2015 when draft legislation will be published."

So we should have full details then.

teapot418
30th November 2015, 19:26
Yeah, that's very interesting, and it's exactly what I was looking out for on December 9. I thought it was odd that they didn't provide this clarification in the Blue Book, because there clearly has to be a test for umbrellas, and they were clearly linking the Intermediaries test to non-umbrellas (i.e. PSCs). In other words, this is pretty much as expected, but it's interesting that they've clarified it already rather than wait for December 9.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they will opt for SDC with IR35, but it clearly leans that way and implies that the haven't bought the arguments about SDC being no less subjective.

With a bit of luck it will be so unworkable, they'll drop the whole silly idea.

LondonManc
30th November 2015, 19:38
With a bit of luck it will be so unworkable, they'll drop the whole silly idea.

With a bit of luck, they'll come up with a proper contractual test. It should simply refer to the rights of a permanent employee and a ticklist against those. Anyone scoring over a certain threshold is inside IR35 and even an interim level for agency workers who could go on a different tax model to reflect the risks related to their type of work.

BolshieBastard
30th November 2015, 22:33
With a bit of luck it will be so unworkable, they'll drop the whole silly idea.

Dont hold your breath!

LisaContractorUmbrella
1st December 2015, 07:46
It also says

"More details will become available on 9 December 2015 when draft legislation will be published."

So we should have full details then.

Yep that's the new D Day - we should know then how all of this is going to work in practice - until then it's all guesswork :ohwell

MarkT
1st December 2015, 09:28
Yep that's the new D Day - we should know then how all of this is going to work in practice - until then it's all guesswork :ohwell

What a lovely Xmas we will all have...

MarkT
1st December 2015, 09:59
will be effected when they are under supervision, direction or control in the manner they carry out their work.

That OR is a big OR, and not an AND.

Worrying.

LisaContractorUmbrella
1st December 2015, 10:46
What a lovely Xmas we will all have...

Worrying is like riding a rocking horse - it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere :wink

MarkT
1st December 2015, 11:47
In the being sneaky department of HMRC within their email response to my consultation letter.


Worrying is like riding a rocking horse - it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere :wink

That depends on what is said next Wednesday. I'd like a month without a D Day in it, just one!

colinrobinson
2nd December 2015, 16:01
Except you would still be liable for tax & NI on the BiK. It doesn't matter who pays the expense (and it's always been this way).



Exactly.

Really what about this from the 2015 finance act:

Following a review of benefits in kind by the Office of Tax Simplification, a package of four measures was announced by HM Treasury. The proposals were as follows.

Abolition of the threshold for the taxation of benefits in kind for employees who earn at a rate of less than £8,500 a year.
A statutory exemption for trivial benefits.
A system of collecting income tax in real time through the “payrolling” of benefits in kind.
Replacement of the expenses dispensation regime with an exemption for paid and reimbursed expenses.
The second of those measures – the introduction of an exemption for trivial benefits – has been deferred to a future Finance Bill, but the others were included in FA 2015. Although the abolition of the £8,500 threshold was implemented in that act, it will not come into force until 6 April 2016, after which all benefits will be taxable regardless of the employee’s total earnings (FA 2015 Part 1 Ch 2 s 12 to s 13).

At present, employees who are reimbursed work-related expenses are not liable to tax on them if they claim a deduction in their tax return or by writing to HMRC. FA 2015 restructured this, so that qualifying business expenses that are reimbursed to employees will be exempt from tax.

Generally, the employer will not need to report the expenses on form P11D, nor will the employer need to claim a dispensation from reporting expenses. Again, this change (FA 2015 Ch 2 s 11) comes into force on 6 April 2016. It is anticipated that this will save employers, their advisers and HMRC time and money in administration costs. This is a positive change.

Contreras
2nd December 2015, 19:10
At present, employees who are reimbursed work-related expenses are not liable to tax on them if they claim a deduction in their tax return or by writing to HMRC. FA 2015 restructured this, so that qualifying business expenses that are reimbursed to employees will be exempt from tax.

I take this to mean simply that the zero-sum bureaucracy of P11D expenses is to be abolished.

It would NOT affect what is and is not a "qualifying business expenses".

colinrobinson
2nd December 2015, 20:50
I take this to mean simply that the zero-sum bureaucracy of P11D expenses is to be abolished.

It would NOT affect what is and is not a "qualifying business expenses".

qualifying business expenses is in my opinion clear and is understood to be be wholly for the purpose of the business. Hotel stays outside reasonable commuting distance to perform a contract clearly meets the requirement.

so if we bill the client for actual expense of staying on business, as employees we are eligible to claim the cost and that re-imbusement is exempt from tax. So if this remains unchanged in the 2016 bill umbrella employees charging expenses should be exempt from tax on those expenses.

it would be interesting to know what Lisacontractorumbrella has to say on this point.

Contreras
2nd December 2015, 21:11
so if we bill the client for actual expense of staying on business, as employees ...
I'm sorry, you lost me right there.

SueEllen
2nd December 2015, 21:35
qualifying business expenses is in my opinion clear and is understood to be be wholly for the purpose of the business. Hotel stays outside reasonable commuting distance to perform a contract clearly meets the requirement.

so if we bill the client for actual expense of staying on business, as employees we are eligible to claim the cost and that re-imbusement is exempt from tax. So if this remains unchanged in the 2016 bill umbrella employees charging expenses should be exempt from tax on those expenses.

it would be interesting to know what Lisacontractorumbrella has to say on this point.

We aren't the client's employees though so why should they reimburse our expenses?

colinrobinson
3rd December 2015, 12:01
We aren't the client's employees though so why should they reimburse our expenses?

we are free to bill in any way that we decide, by separating our hours from our expenses we are then able to treat each invoice differently. the end client can treat our expenses invoices as travel and subsistence (with tax relief). it can re-imburse either our ltd or our umbrella. in either case we are employees (as a director or an umbrella paye). then as an employee of either in receipt of reimbursed expenses they are exempt. and our invoices for hours are taxable as normal without the expenses element.

Until dec 9th though when it can all change with the 2016 finance act

Cirrus
3rd December 2015, 12:30
we are free to bill in any way that we decide, by separating our hours from our expenses we are then able to treat each invoice differently. the end client can treat our expenses invoices as travel and subsistence (with tax relief). it can re-imburse either our ltd or our umbrella. in either case we are employees (as a director or an umbrella paye). then as an employee of either in receipt of reimbursed expenses they are exempt. and our invoices for hours are taxable as normal without the expenses element.


Sorry - no idea what you're getting at. Anybody else understand this?

northernladuk
3rd December 2015, 12:47
Sorry - no idea what you're getting at. Anybody else understand this?

I think he is talking about a gig where the client pays for travel and expenses so the contractor can invoice the client. He's either negotiated the client pays his normal expenses or he's talking about the client sending him to other sites. If he isn't I'm lost as well.

webberg
3rd December 2015, 12:48
I confess I don't really understand the description.

If your services are being offered via a company to a client, then the company raises an invoice on the client. The client cares not whether that is 10% expenses and 90% hours based. The client claims relief for everything paid.

The Ltd company may regard the entire invoice as income or perhaps treats the expense part as not income on the grounds that it will pass this on to the individual?

If the entire invoice is income, then the Ltd can claim relief for reimbursing the individual expense. If it's not treated as income, I suspect there can be no deduction.

The limited may have an agreement with HMRC that the reimbursement is tax free and not reportable. If so, no further action required.

If not, the Ltd should disclose the payment of the expense (P11D perhaps although some expenses are subject to PAYE) and the individual then makes a claim on his/her return.

In this instance the "necessarily" words in the law are interpreted very strictly.

In particular if you have a number of workplaces you attend, then the concept of "outside reasonable commuting distance" is a non starter.

colinrobinson
3rd December 2015, 13:27
I think he is talking about a gig where the client pays for travel and expenses so the contractor can invoice the client. He's either negotiated the client pays his normal expenses or he's talking about the client sending him to other sites. If he isn't I'm lost as well.

I was trying to suggest it would be advantageous to negotiate client Pays normal expenses rather than a flat daily rate.

But dec 9th and clarity is just round the corner

MrMarkyMark
3rd December 2015, 14:00
But dec 9th and clarity is just round the corner

Indeed, hopefully it will be a lot clearer than you have been :D

jamesbrown
3rd December 2015, 15:08
But dec 9th and clarity is just round the corner

Good luck with that :laugh There will be some additional clarity, but probably only w/r to the test used for brollies (SDC), and this has already been clarified post-AS. With HMG, there is never clarity, only degrees of obscurity.

There seems to be an awful lot of confusion about what these T&S proposals relate to. Without wishing to sound patronising, I think some folks need to go back and read the actual T&S consultation as it relates to the removal of tax relief on home to work travel, subject to conditions. There is no intention to remove reliefs from contractors that are already available to employees (having a level playing field with consultancies is another matter). Furthermore, a lot of this discussion is completely unrelated to tax relief. If you can bill your client for expenses or 10x expenses (FWIW, that's what I do, although not 10x :laugh), why wouldn't you do that already? This is a contractual matter.

ASB
3rd December 2015, 16:21
I was trying to suggest it would be advantageous to negotiate client Pays normal expenses rather than a flat daily rate.

But dec 9th and clarity is just round the corner

So bill client 400 quid and receive a brown envelope containing (say) 40 quid cash.

This is still personal income and needs declaring on the SATR (ok you stuff in a claim that it is expenses thus contraing it off to zero which may or may not be a valid claim). The time this wouldn't happen is if it is covered by a dispensation. But it can't be since you are not the clients employee.

Of course the client can legitimately pay you the expenses. But it has an impact on your companies end of year returns. You will need to answer yes to "did anybody else pay any of your employees anything". It would be difficult to legitimately answer that as "no".

It's not going to magically make something claimable that wasn't before. Just add a bit of abstraction.

cityben
9th December 2015, 08:05
Anybody know what time we can expect this draft document being released?

Also....as its a draft does that mean we still won't know for certain until a final document is released? Anybody know when that date will be?

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 08:30
The draft finance bill, which will include the T&S changes (SDC test for brolly users) is today.

I don't believe we have a date for the IR35 consultation document - I think the expectation is "soon".

jamesbrown
9th December 2015, 09:51
Should be some time this morning, but I can't see anything yet. They may push out the IR35 consultation too. Bear in mind it will take some time to trawl through and process, with a lot of changes that are potentially relevant to contractors (dividend tax, T&S relief, lifetime allowance for pensions, GAAR penalties, various measures for BTL, savings allowance, rabbits from hats - hopefully none :D).

webberg
9th December 2015, 11:54
There is a PMQ scheduled for noon today.

I'm wondering if we will see the Bill after that has finished on the grounds that otherwise publication might throw up an unexpected question and disrupt the carefully scripted pantomime that passes for democracy in the Commons?

MarkT
9th December 2015, 12:02
There is a PMQ scheduled for noon today.

I'm wondering if we will see the Bill after that has finished on the grounds that otherwise publication might throw up an unexpected question and disrupt the carefully scripted pantomime that passes for democracy in the Commons?

I have a question here from Neil in Wolverhampton...

jamesbrown
9th December 2015, 12:28
I have a question here from Neil in Wolverhampton...

I have a question from Ben and Jo, two lawyers from Cumbernauld.

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 13:10
T&S responses published

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/employment-intermediaries-and-tax-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence

Does not bode well...

"3.13 Although the government recognises that supervision, direction or control
is a subjective test, and that a minority of engagements will be hard to
categorise, it believes that clear guidance should help ensure businesses
and individuals are able to understand when a worker is under the right of
supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work.
There is already a substantial amount of case law in this area, which will
further support HMRC’s guidance and the understanding of these terms.
HMRC will review the existing guidance on supervision, direction or
10
control and issue guidance for this measure before it comes into force in
2016.

3.14 The government is also confident that its current definition of the terms
will capture those whose work is akin to employees, without affecting
those who are akin to the self-employed. The government considers that
with clear guidance on these definitions, it will be easier to understand
where someone is not under supervision, direction or control.

3.15 It is important to note that the supervision, direction or control test being
proposed for use by employment intermediaries in relation to these
changes, will only be relevant for deciding eligibility for relief on travel and
subsistence for home to work travel. It will not impact on a worker’s
employment status, or wider employment rights"

chopper
9th December 2015, 13:30
This publication seems relevant

Income Tax: employment intermediaries and relief for travel and subsistence (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence)


Legislation will be introduced in Finance Bill 2016 to restrict access to relief for home to work travel and subsistence where a worker:

personally provides services to another person
is employed through an employment intermediary
is under (the right of) the supervision, direction or control of any person, in the manner in which they undertake their work
Employment intermediary will be defined as a person, other than the worker or the client, who carries on a business (whether or not with a view to profit and whether or not in conjunction with any other business) of supplying labour.

Where the worker is within the charge of the intermediaries legislation this measure will only apply to those contracts where a deemed employment payment is made, or would be made if all the individual’s remuneration was not being taken as employment income. In these circumstances the supervision, direction or control test will not be used.

And the draft at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483458/7057-draft_clause-9.pdf says:



“339A Sections 338 and 339: employment intermediaries
(1) This section applies where an individual (“the worker”)—
(a) personally provides services (which are not excluded services)
to another person (“the client”), and
(b) the services are provided not under a contract directly between
the client and the worker but under arrangements involving an
employment intermediary.
(2) But this section does not apply if it is shown that the manner in which
the worker provides the services is not subject to (or to the right of)
supervision, direction or control by any person.

LondonManc
9th December 2015, 13:37
This publication seems relevant

Income Tax: employment intermediaries and relief for travel and subsistence (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence)



And the draft at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483458/7057-draft_clause-9.pdf says:

That sounds like it's clobbering umbrellas.

"Employment intermediary will be defined as a person, other than the worker or the client, who carries on a business (whether or not with a view to profit and whether or not in conjunction with any other business) of supplying labour."

That part is a bit woolly about whether or not agencies count as intermediaries; if you have a business-to-business relationship with an agency and simply invoice them, then it seems that there is no individual involved for limited companies; sounds like sole traders could be caught though.

Yorkie62
9th December 2015, 13:37
T&S responses published

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/employment-intermediaries-and-tax-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence

Does not bode well...

"3.13 Although the government recognises that supervision, direction or control
is a subjective test, and that a minority of engagements will be hard to
categorise, it believes that clear guidance should help ensure businesses
and individuals are able to understand when a worker is under the right of
supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work.
There is already a substantial amount of case law in this area, which will
further support HMRC’s guidance and the understanding of these terms.
HMRC will review the existing guidance on supervision, direction or
10
control and issue guidance for this measure before it comes into force in
2016.

3.14 The government is also confident that its current definition of the terms
will capture those whose work is akin to employees, without affecting
those who are akin to the self-employed. The government considers that
with clear guidance on these definitions, it will be easier to understand
where someone is not under supervision, direction or control.

3.15 It is important to note that the supervision, direction or control test being
proposed for use by employment intermediaries in relation to these
changes, will only be relevant for deciding eligibility for relief on travel and
subsistence for home to work travel. It will not impact on a worker’s
employment status, or wider employment rights"

But.. 1.8 of this document states:
1.8 The government does accept though that it would be burdensome for PSCs to be required to apply two separate tests for each of their contracts. The government will therefore amend its proposals, so that the new measure will only apply to a PSC’s contract when it falls within the intermediaries legislation, or would do if the worker was not receiving remuneration as employment income.

i.e. SDC will only apply if caught inside IR35

LondonManc
9th December 2015, 13:41
But.. 1.8 of this document states:
1.8 The government does accept though that it would be burdensome for PSCs to be required to apply two separate tests for each of their contracts. The government will therefore amend its proposals, so that the new measure will only apply to a PSC’s contract when it falls within the intermediaries legislation, or would do if the worker was not receiving remuneration as employment income.

i.e. SDC will only apply if caught inside IR35

Cool. I'm not a PSC because the tick box says so. As you were. :D

PurpleGorilla
9th December 2015, 13:42
WTF is a PSC?

MarkT
9th December 2015, 13:44
WTF is a PSC?

Particularly Solvent Contractor

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 13:59
But.. 1.8 of this document states:
1.8 The government does accept though that it would be burdensome for PSCs to be required to apply two separate tests for each of their contracts. The government will therefore amend its proposals, so that the new measure will only apply to a PSC’s contract when it falls within the intermediaries legislation, or would do if the worker was not receiving remuneration as employment income.

i.e. SDC will only apply if caught inside IR35

Yes, that is the case.

My concern is the imminent IR35 consultation - they clearly believe that SDC is a workable proposition.

MarkT
9th December 2015, 14:00
Yes, that is the case.

My concern is the imminent IR35 consultation - they clearly believe that SDC is a workable proposition.

Remind me - when is that due?

Fred Bloggs
9th December 2015, 14:01
Yes, that is the case.

My concern is the imminent IR35 consultation - they clearly believe that SDC is a workable proposition.
Even worse is the 'right to' SDC. Who can avoid that?

LondonManc
9th December 2015, 14:02
Even worse is the 'right to' SDC. Who can avoid that?

Nobody.

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 14:02
Remind me - when is that due?

I don't believe we know. Best guess is "soon".

PurpleGorilla
9th December 2015, 14:11
Nobody.

The 'right' to.

That's insane.

LondonManc
9th December 2015, 14:16
The 'right' to.

That's insane.

Any company paying another company to deliver something will have the right to one of S,D or C at some point.

PurpleGorilla
9th December 2015, 14:16
Does this mean the chap who services my boiler is under my SDC because I ask him to 'de slurge the bogit' as it is making a whistle noise?

BrilloPad
9th December 2015, 14:19
Does this mean the chap who services my boiler is under my SDC because I ask him to 'de slurge the bogit' as it is making a whistle noise?

Do you invoice him or his company? Or British Gas?

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 14:20
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence

"Most end engagers will only need to take action where a worker is not under supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work. Workers are assumed to be under supervision, direction or control, unless it is shown otherwise."

So end client doesn't even have to make a decision.

LondonManc
9th December 2015, 14:20
Does this mean the chap who services my boiler is under my SDC because I ask him to 'de slurge the bogit' as it is making a whistle noise?

If you are telling him when he should turn up then yes.

PurpleGorilla
9th December 2015, 14:22
If you are telling him when he should turn up then yes.

So everyone is inside IR35, an no one can pay T&S then?

(MPs excluded obviously)

MrMarkyMark
9th December 2015, 14:26
I ask him to 'de slurge the bogit' as it is making a whistle noise?

Works done, that will be £750 +VAT, please. :smokin

LondonManc
9th December 2015, 14:34
So everyone is inside IR35, an no one can pay T&S then?

(MPs excluded obviously)

MPs are probably on permie contracts so will be allowed to claim expenses.



Thought; do we insist in a contract that our registered office is our regular place of work and then we can claim T&S because we're travelling to an alternative location, i.e. client site?

cityben
9th December 2015, 15:07
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence/income-tax-employment-intermediaries-and-relief-for-travel-and-subsistence

"Most end engagers will only need to take action where a worker is not under supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work. Workers are assumed to be under supervision, direction or control, unless it is shown otherwise."

So end client doesn't even have to make a decision.

This is a big worry. How are they going to inform every single engager in the country? Or is that what they want, that everyone by default is inside IR35....?

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 15:10
This is a big worry. How are they going to inform every single engager in the country? Or is that what they want, that everyone by default is inside IR35....?

To be clear - this isn't IR35 yet - just a portent of doom...

GB9
9th December 2015, 16:11
Currently, to be within ir35, all three of S, D and C need to apply.

In the HMRC guidance it appears to indicate that a right to any one of the three would find a psc within ir35. However, the quoted paragraph of the proposal seems to contradict this.

Either way, S, D and C are all fairly well defined by case law. To be outside it all that would be needed would be for the contract to state that there is no S, D or C, and for working practises to mirror this. This doesn't feel too bad.

BTW, anyone who thinks that there being no legal definition of a psc will save them needs to sober up. All it needs is a judge in one case to say 'yes' to HMRC'S definition and that's it.

Danglekt
9th December 2015, 16:23
Either way, S, D and C are all fairly well defined by case law. To be outside it all that would be needed would be for the contract to state that there is no S, D AND C, and for working practises to mirror this. This doesn't feel too bad.

.

FTFY - That is what the contract needs to state, no contract can say there is no S,D OR C, cos that basically means they can't ask you to start on X date, or follow their H&S policy or any minutia you care to pick.

GB9
9th December 2015, 17:00
FTFY - That is what the contract needs to state, no contract can say there is no S,D OR C, cos that basically means they can't ask you to start on X date, or follow their H&S policy or any minutia you care to pick.

Things such as H&S fall outside sdc.

How is start date sdc? Fixed working hours, maybe.

Unless the definition of sdc changes, and they have indicated that it won't, then I think it will be very possible to get a non sdc situation.

What will be clear though is the client's expectation of whether they want a disguised employee or not.

midlandlass
9th December 2015, 19:15
I don't believe we know. Best guess is "soon".

Our contact from HMRC said this "HMRC promise clear and concise guidance before 6 April 2016" - guessing this is as precise in terms of date as they want to be :eyes

cityben
9th December 2015, 19:44
To be clear - this isn't IR35 yet - just a portent of doom...

Yes but, correct me if I'm wrong this is for T & S isn't it? Therefore after April 2016 by default T & S tax relief won't be able to be claimed unless "it is shown otherwise" i.e. you need to contact them to prove no S, D or C.

"Most end engagers will only need to take action where a worker is not under supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work. Workers are assumed to be under supervision, direction or control, unless it is shown otherwise."

Or am I misunderstanding things?

I suppose what we're all saying is we're worried that if they're doing this for T & S they'll just as easily flip this to employment status?

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 20:00
Yes but, correct me if I'm wrong this is for T & S isn't it? Therefore after April 2016 by default T & S tax relief won't be able to be claimed unless "it is shown otherwise" i.e. you need to contact them to prove no S, D or C.

"Most end engagers will only need to take action where a worker is not under supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work. Workers are assumed to be under supervision, direction or control, unless it is shown otherwise."

Or am I misunderstanding things?

I suppose what we're all saying is we're worried that if they're doing this for T & S they'll just as easily flip this to employment status?

It is for T&S, but "PSCs" are excluded - for us, IR35 is the decider - inside = no T&S, outside = T&S. So for most of us, it's carry on as before, for now.

cityben
9th December 2015, 20:07
It is for T&S, but "PSCs" are excluded - for us, IR35 is the decider - inside = no T&S, outside = T&S. So for most of us, it's carry on as before, for now.

Thanks for the clarification. So in this case we are PSCs ;)

But as I said, it sounds like they clearly think S, D or C check is easier than it actually is which is worrying. It means they could turn on the in or out IR35 on that basis at some point...

Zero Liability
9th December 2015, 20:10
Thanks for the clarification. So in this case we are PSCs ;)

But as I said, it sounds like they clearly think S, D or C check is easier than it actually is which is worrying. It means they could turn on the in or out IR35 on that basis at some point...

Yes, "PSCs". :tongue

mudskipper
9th December 2015, 20:36
Yes, "PSCs". :tongue

Sounds like a star sign.

Zero Liability
9th December 2015, 21:29
Sounds like a star sign.

Or a herding pen. Anything to get dear Gideon's mojo in gear.