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AtW
1st January 2016, 18:26
Just how much of a Tory is George Osborne?

As everyone knows, George Osborne is a Conservative who likes to cite Margaret Thatcher as his political hero. Yet ironically, he is fast shaping up into something quite different – one of the most redistributional and interventionist chancellors of the modern age. That position may be confirmed in the next Budget by a £30 billion further raid on pension tax reliefs.

But first, the backstory. Once upon a time, Britain used to have a relatively good and robust occupational pensions system. I’m not sure it was ever the “envy of the world”, as was frequently suggested, but certainly it seemed broadly to work in providing the bulk of UK employees from the shop floor upwards with a reasonable pension in retirement

Then three things happened. First, the idea of jobs for life went out the door, with employment becoming ever less secure. This, in turn, made employers less willing than they had been to provide pension benefits as an incentive for long service.

Second, life expectancy began to far exceed what the actuaries had assumed, making the provision of final salary pension schemes increasingly expensive, in many cases, prohibitively so. But most important of all, governments couldn’t help but meddle, chopping and changing policy from one year to the next, some times with good intentions, but often simply for the purpose of boosting short term tax revenues. With virtually all these interventions, the consequences were disastrous, until eventually they broke the system entirely.

From the Treasury’s point of view, this makes perfect sense. Upfront pension tax relief is estimated to “cost” the Revenue around £50 billion a year, virtually enough to eradicate Britain’s Budget deficit in one fell swoop. Never mind that this would be a windfall only of timing, bringing forward tax revenue that would in any case be paid by pensioners at some stage in the future; it still makes a tempting target for a chancellor desperate to achieve his totemic goal of a budget surplus. (AtW's comment - that money will be taken out from City's coffers, money that help maintain stock bubble)

Just how much of a Tory is George Osborne? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/12076601/Just-how-much-of-a-Tory-is-George-Osborne.html)

How much of a Tory?? :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Correct answer - 100% Pure Tory Scum!

:eyes

Gotto love it really - buy middle class vote with promise to increase high tax threshold to pathetic £50k and then totally rob them of other stuff they had more than making up for the "gift", which is yet to materialise!

MarillionFan
1st January 2016, 18:42
I am absolutely appalled by this Chancellor. He had re-engineered so many Tory tax collection methods in the last year to effectively look more of a cash grabber than any Labour Government.

Everything I have bought into has been shit on.

Work hard - keep your money
Save for your pension - it's the future, we will help you
Buy to Let's
Self Employed we want you - divvies and T&E

The Tories were all about work hard and help yourself. Now it's work hard and we'll help ourselves but our backers and big business will be rewarded.


I am a lifelong Tory voter and certainly will not vote Tory next time.

AtW
1st January 2016, 18:47
I am absolutely appalled by this Chancellor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c8cl0U7hao

Will never vote Tories as a matter of principle.

I just 6 months he's done worse taxation than New Labour in 15 years.

Making so many wholesale changes is just plain risky.

No way Balls would have made so many negative changes so quick.

MarillionFan
1st January 2016, 19:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c8cl0U7hao

Will never vote Tories as a matter of principle.

I just 6 months he's done worse taxation than New Labour in 15 years.

Making so many wholesale changes is just plain risky.

No way Balls would have made so many negative changes so quick.

I think the pension changes will ultimately sink this generation and the future governments of this country. It's so short term thinking it has a huge impact 10/15 years from now

AtW
1st January 2016, 19:21
I think the pension changes will ultimately sink this generation and the future governments of this country. It's so short term thinking it has a huge impact 10/15 years from now

The impact should be pretty immediate - pension funds will have a lot less money to support FTSE bubble and when shares fall many of the same FTSE companies have big pension deficites.

The fool might just succeed in crashing house market and stock market at the same time.

xoggoth
1st January 2016, 19:22
Quite to above. Nowt to add.

scooterscot
1st January 2016, 19:44
I am a lifelong Tory voter and certainly will not vote Tory next time.

Vote SNP next time.

MarillionFan
1st January 2016, 19:45
Vote SNP next time.

UKIP

I may run.

scooterscot
1st January 2016, 19:46
UKIP

I may run.

A wasted vote. You'll be lucky to get one or two seats compared to the SNP's 55.

shaunbhoy
1st January 2016, 19:56
I may run.

I'd give that a miss MF. THere is no getting away from the fact that you are a "big old unit", and your running days are far behind you. Have you thought of "waddling" for public office?

:laugh

AtW
1st January 2016, 20:07
I'd give that a miss MF. THere is no getting away from the fact that you are a "big old unit", and your running days are far behind you. Have you thought of "waddling" for public office? :laugh

It's good thing that Osborne is no threat to the likes of you ...

shaunbhoy
1st January 2016, 20:14
It's good thing that Osborne is no threat to the likes of you ...

If he were a threat then I would deal with it. Not sit bitching about it on an internet forum like a big girls blouse like you. You need to MTFU

HTH BIDI

:laugh

AtW
1st January 2016, 20:16
If he were a threat

So you admit he isn't? :laugh

I guessed right, since Osborne is gunning for the "man who drives van/pickup" (except xoggoth who is too weird) floating voters :laugh

shaunbhoy
1st January 2016, 20:18
So you admit he isn't? :laugh

I guessed right, since Osborne is gunning for the "man who drives van/pickup" (except xoggoth who is too weird) floating voters :laugh

He is a self-serving politician. They come and they go. The wise man lives his life in a way that their impact upon his well-being is minimised. Not that I would expect someone like you to have grasped that, you are still trying to get to grips with the property ladder.

:laugh

AtW
1st January 2016, 20:21
The wise man lives his life in a way that their impact upon his well-being is minimised.

So your solution is to be so poor that even Osborne can't take anything away from you?

:rolleyes:

shaunbhoy
1st January 2016, 20:25
So your solution is to be so poor that even Osborne can't take anything away from you?

:rolleyes:

"poor" is a subjective definition. I am rich in ways you seem destined never to be. I have a house, I have a family, I have lots of friends. I could go on. But even a dullard like you ought to be grasping the point by now.
Throbbing servers, inflatable dolls and pet squirrels do not utopia bring.

:laugh

AtW
1st January 2016, 20:28
"poor" is a subjective definition. I am rich in ways you seem destined never to be. I have a house, I have a family, I have lots of friends. I could go on

Please continue...

shaunbhoy
1st January 2016, 20:29
Please continue...

What would be the point? It is all so far over your head it is leaving a veritable vapour trail.....

:laugh

BrilloPad
1st January 2016, 20:32
Economy not growing enough. Chance the ponzi scheme might collapse. So people have to spend more. ZIRP still not enough. First let pensioners get their hands on their pension pots. Still not enough. So make sure no-one bothers to save.

It postpones the day of reckoning. The can is kicked down the road a bit further.

BrilloPad
1st January 2016, 20:33
Throbbing servers, inflatable dolls and pet squirrels do not utopia bring.


Sounds like my idea of heaven. Certainly beats being married.

DimPrawn
1st January 2016, 23:18
Throbbing servers, inflatable dolls and pet squirrels do not utopia bring.

:laugh

Atw has two of those covered with his inflatable squirrel. He likes to take it round the back.

http://www.aerodinamika.com/upload/imagelib/custom/inflatable-squirrell.jpg

Troll
1st January 2016, 23:47
I have lots of friends. Now you know he's taking the piss

Waldorf
2nd January 2016, 00:07
Then three things happened!

You missed out the Gordon Brown raid on pension funds, when he removed the ability of pension funds to reclaim the tax credit (then 25% of the gross dividend), worth £5 billion in 1998, approx. £10-12 billion per annum today.

The fact is that the deficit is not really budging, it is mostly the wealthy who gain from the pension tax relief, I would prefer to see an ISA type of pension saving, whereby the contributions come from taxed income but the pension income is tax free when you withdraw it.

The risk from this is that a future government might be tempted to tax the income from a pension ISA in the future.

Waldorf
2nd January 2016, 00:14
I am a lifelong Tory voter and certainly will not vote Tory next time.

Well who else can you vote for?

These tax rises are disappointing, especially from a Tory government but we have not seen any cuts to the overall government spending and the budget has to be balanced somehow. The British public have no idea about what we spend, have no appetite for cuts and ANY government that is serious about sorting out our finances would be going something pretty similar.

The alternative is to follow the failed socialist experiments we have seen in Venezuela, Argentina etc.

Total Government spending in 2009-10 was £674 billion, in 2015-16 it is projected to be £756 billion, an increase of £82 billion! So when you hear of cuts you know the reality.

shaunbhoy
2nd January 2016, 00:38
Now you know he's taking the piss

As usual.......glacially slow on the uptake. :laugh

AtW
2nd January 2016, 00:46
These tax rises are disappointing, especially from a Tory government but we have not seen any cuts to the overall government spending and the budget has to be balanced somehow.

So, Tories come to power on the basis of cutting overall Govt spending, but they actually end up taxing heavily their core voters???

:eyes

Osborne is doing all the sneaky things that Labour is supposed to be doing... that's NOT what's supposedly should be expected from Tory Govt! And this time they can't blame Liberals, ffs - it turns out last Govt was fooking awesome, and before that even better! Hell, Balls would have been better for Tory voters too.

AtW
2nd January 2016, 00:47
Now you know he's taking the piss

Aye.

I've got lots of friends.

CUK friends.

The best friends, right?


:tired

AtW
2nd January 2016, 00:49
Total Government spending in 2009-10 was £674 billion, in 2015-16 it is projected to be £756 billion, an increase of £82 billion! So when you hear of cuts you know the reality.

Oh ffs, but this means there are NO fooking cuts!!! Tories did not DO THE CUTS THEY PROMISED!

Instead they are taxing their core voters to bribe Labour voters in a vain hope that it would get Osborne elected in 2020... WRONG!

AtW
2nd January 2016, 00:53
Well who else can you vote for?

Korbyn.

This will ensure that he taxes Osborne's rich mates very heavily, just like they should be taxed - maybe next time they'll think twice before taxing too heavily their core middle class vote.

Waldorf
2nd January 2016, 08:58
Korbyn.

This will ensure that he taxes Osborne's rich mates very heavily, just like they should be taxed - maybe next time they'll think twice before taxing too heavily their core middle class vote.

Not sure the significance of spelling his name with a K?

However, luckily there are not enough foolish people who will vote for this fool. Anyone who does is deluded.

DimPrawn
2nd January 2016, 10:29
Large pension pots and even large ISA pots are sitting ducks, so easy to raid with a big tax hike. It's too much of a temptation for any shade of LibLabCon to resist.

They can dress it up in the name of "fairness" to "hard working families" etc.

Another reason to pour every penny you have into your 100% tax free family home. Safe as houses. :smokin

DodgyAgent
2nd January 2016, 10:41
Will never vote Tories as a matter of principle.

.

What "principle" is that? do explain.

DodgyAgent
2nd January 2016, 10:43
Large pension pots and even large ISA pots are sitting ducks, so easy to raid with a big tax hike. It's too much of a temptation for any shade of LibLabCon to resist.

They can dress it up in the name of "fairness" to "hard working families" etc.

Another reason to pour every penny you have into your 100% tax free family home. Safe as houses. :smokin

Bear in mind that most of these large pensions will be for public sector workers like taxmen that retire at 55 I am not sure I have any sympathy.

BrilloPad
2nd January 2016, 10:46
Large pension pots and even large ISA pots are sitting ducks, so easy to raid with a big tax hike. It's too much of a temptation for any shade of LibLabCon to resist.

They can dress it up in the name of "fairness" to "hard working families" etc.

Another reason to pour every penny you have into your 100% tax free family home. Safe as houses. :smokin

Indeed. I don't believe that the main family home will ever be taken away.

Of course I can have one for each of my ex-wives.....

MicrosoftBob
2nd January 2016, 12:46
'Tis the Komrade Korbyn meme, tovarich.

Ah but does he belong to the Tooting Popular Front or the Peoples Popular Front of Tooting

centurian
2nd January 2016, 12:54
Bear in mind that most of these large pensions will be for public sector workers like taxmen that retire at 55 I am not sure I have any sympathy.

Except they are trying as hard as they can to exempt themselves from the changes. One of the main questions being posed was

"Should the government consider differential treatment for defined benefit and defined contribution pensions? If so, how should each be treated?"

This is code-talk for "should final salary schemes be exempt" and has been picked up on.

Hargreaves in talks with Treasury over DB tax treatment - Citywire (http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/news/hargreaves-in-talks-with-treasury-over-db-tax-treatment/a846897)


The Treasury has shown 'willingness' to exclude defined benefit (DB) pension schemes from its pension tax relief overhaul plans

Well of course they have shown "willingness" - they've all got DB schemes themselves. :mad

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and any restriction in reliefs will hit higher rate public sector workers hard. Virtually everyone involved in making the decision has a vested interest in DB schemes being made exempt from the change.

Turkeys however, will happily vote for other turkeys to go to the Christmas party. Make no mistake - the plan - if they can get away with it - is to squeeze private sector higher rate pensions until the pips squeak, while shielding their own pensions.

This is why there is the delay - how do they convince everyone that it's absolutely essential that the relief needs to be removed for one group - yet another group, who already get a more generous tax treatment anyway - shouldn't have to pay a penny more.

vetran
2nd January 2016, 14:27
Please continue...

He has a Sofa!

MarillionFan
2nd January 2016, 16:17
Large pension pots and even large ISA pots are sitting ducks, so easy to raid with a big tax hike. It's too much of a temptation for any shade of LibLabCon to resist.

They can dress it up in the name of "fairness" to "hard working families" etc.

Another reason to pour every penny you have into your 100% tax free family home. Safe as houses. :smokin

WHS. it will be ISAs next. Will Middle England be demonstrating anytime soon?

I also joined UKIP last night, paid my £30 and will be going to a meeting next week. Safest Tory seat in the country I'm in. I'll see if I can change that.:mad

AtW
2nd January 2016, 16:25
However, luckily there are not enough foolish people who will vote for this fool. Anyone who does is deluded.

So we should all vote for Osborne and be grateful because taxes would have been higher under Labour? :laugh

It does not matter what Korbyn will do - by the time he gets a chance Osborne will have increased taxes to the max anyway, what matters is that Conservative party should know that if they are going to be party of higher taxes then they should never get elected - period. The only valid ticket for Cons must be REDUCTION OF TAXATION, not "we'll tax you a lot but it might be less than the others".

AtW
2nd January 2016, 16:26
He has a Sofa!

That's just below the belt... :frown

AtW
2nd January 2016, 16:28
What "principle" is that? do explain.

Principle #1 is this - fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Principle #2 is this - never vote for party that is known to be pro-business, better vote for somebody else who is afraid to be seen anti-business.

AtW
2nd January 2016, 16:32
I also joined UKIP last night, paid my £30 and will be going to a meeting next week. Safest Tory seat in the country I'm in. I'll see if I can change that.:mad

:eek

vetran
2nd January 2016, 16:37
That's just below the belt... :frown


:grin

darmstadt
2nd January 2016, 16:41
Quite interesting to look back through this forum prior to the election and see the amount of people pushing for the Tories yet many of those same people are now moaning about them. Either put up or shut up, you voted for them, you're now getting your just rewards :winker:

AtW
2nd January 2016, 16:49
Quite interesting to look back through this forum prior to the election and see the amount of people pushing for the Tories yet many of those same people are now moaning about them. Either put up or shut up, you voted for them, you're now getting your just rewards :winker:

Well, in my defense I did not realise that Tories (specifically Osborne) would be such blatant liars.

LibCons had sensible policies, dropped 50% to 45% and Osborne claimed it was LibDems who were stopping him to get rate down to 40%, nothing was indicating that he would suddenly go on a high taxing spree in zero time.

I did not actually expect him to drop 45% to 40% quickly, but I sure as heck did not expect 30% increase in taxation on dividends and a lot of other tulip that is still incoming.

If he told me that he planned to do then I'd certainly vote Labour - much better to have 50% rate back than all the stuff Osborne did and will do.

centurian
2nd January 2016, 17:12
Well, in my defense I did not realise that Tories (specifically Osborne) would be such blatant liars.

I did, although I still voted for them as they were the least worst option - compared to Miliband propped up by the SNP.

None of the party's plans added up, not one of them - they were all based upon wildly optimistic assumptions, which were never going to come to pass.

Once you work out all the "protected" spending, and the "protected" tax promises (not raising basic rate of Tax/NI etc.), then it was blindingly obvious (to me anyway) that things like divs/pension contributions etc. would be in the firing line.


If he told me that he planned to do then I'd certainly vote Labour - much better to have 50% rate back than all the stuff Osborne did and will do.

Which would have raised peanuts - if anything, so Labour would still have come after your income group through other means anyway.

AtW
2nd January 2016, 17:17
I did, although I still voted for them as they were the least worst option - compared to Miliband propped up by the SNP.

On reflection I don't think so.

Miliband would have increased political income tax to 50%, he'd have to extend HS2 to Scotland, the key difference is that they clearly said they would not cut deficist as quick as Osborne, hence less tax increases would have been required. Corp tax would have also gone back a few points up. Still much much better than the tulip Osborne ALREADY dished out.

What insulted me most is Osborne's justification for increasing tax on dividends - he said: "well, we've cut down corp tax (very slowly over 5 fooking years)", so now we take away all that and more!

That's just insulting, and particularly wrong because div tax is double taxation on top of corp tax, which is why div tax credit existed in the first place - worst of all those who use foreign vehicles to receive dividends won't be affected.

The "least worst option" is utter lie - in state with two parties one must be tax cutting and the other tax increasing, if Tories turned to be party of high taxes then what's the point???

Waldorf
2nd January 2016, 17:47
The only valid ticket for Cons must be REDUCTION OF TAXATION, not "we'll tax you a lot but it might be less than the others".

I would love that, however not enough people vote for the cuts that would be necessary.

AtW
2nd January 2016, 18:02
I would love that, however not enough people vote for the cuts that would be necessary.

People voted for it!!! Cons had mandate to REDUCE GOVT SPENDING, SECOND TIME NOW! First time they could claim that LibDems don't allow them to cut spending ... but not now!

Yet, what Osborne wants instead is to increase taxes on his core voters in order to buy more traditional Labour voters and for that reason he isn't cutting the spending as fast and as much as was promised.

One can't even argue that they would lower taxes in time for next election, they might PROMISE to do so IF they get elected again, but the problem is that once Govt gets nice tax revenues it won't be going back on it - this creates problem for the future, that's why Govt spending should have been reduced - taxation is very high as it is.

SueEllen
2nd January 2016, 19:06
I did, although I still voted for them as they were the least worst option - compared to Miliband propped up by the SNP.

None of the party's plans added up, not one of them - they were all based upon wildly optimistic assumptions, which were never going to come to pass.

Once you work out all the "protected" spending, and the "protected" tax promises (not raising basic rate of Tax/NI etc.), then it was blindingly obvious (to me anyway) that things like divs/pension contributions etc. would be in the firing line.


The idea was to work out how to get a hung parliament again so we could get another referendum on the parliamentary voting system.

AtW
2nd January 2016, 19:18
The idea was to work out how to get a hung parliament again so we could get another referendum on the parliamentary voting system.

Last person who got close to work out how to do it was Guy Fawkes :eyes

BrilloPad
2nd January 2016, 20:30
The idea was to work out how to get a hung parliament again so we could get another referendum on the parliamentary voting system.


Last person who got close to work out how to do it was Guy Fawkes :eyes

+1. I would like to see a hung parliament.

darmstadt
2nd January 2016, 22:32
AtW, see you've set-up a new webshop: I Love Osborne Gifts - I Love Osborne Gift Ideas on Zazzle (http://www.zazzle.com/i+love+osborne+gifts)

AtW
2nd January 2016, 22:34
AtW, see you've set-up a new webshop: I Love Osborne Gifts - I Love Osborne Gift Ideas on Zazzle (http://www.zazzle.com/i+love+osborne+gifts)

:puke:

AtW
2nd January 2016, 22:36
I'm beginning to think he's a goddamn communist sleeper. It's the only rational explanation.

He is a self serving bean counter who has never done an honest day of work in real business.

Finance ministers should never be allowed to have any leadership ambitions because they sit on the money and can bribe people, this should be written down in Magna Carta.

MarillionFan
2nd January 2016, 22:56
He is a self serving bean counter who has never done an honest day of work in real business.

Finance ministers should never be allowed to have any leadership ambitions because they sit on the money and can bribe people, this should be written down in Magna Carta.

WHS.

He's seen the deficit versus a theoretical 'credit rating' and thought that the deficit should be removed to get a surplus, but with no idea what impact that has to the country but more importantly the impact to people who make up the Tory Middle class vote.

What actually comes across is, that this Chancellor is so stupid, that he can make wholesale massive changes, safe in the knowledge there is no political opposition, but with no idea of what the impact is.

It's scary shit.

jamesbrown
2nd January 2016, 23:10
WHS.

He's seen the deficit versus a theoretical 'credit rating' and thought that the deficit should be removed to get a surplus, but with no idea what impact that has to the country but more importantly the impact to people who make up the Tory Middle class vote.

What actually comes across is, that this Chancellor is so stupid, that he can make wholesale massive changes, safe in the knowledge there is no political opposition, but with no idea of what the impact is.

It's scary tulip.

Since there's no opposition, the only risk to Gidiot is that he won't manage to secure the leadership when call-me-Dave starts at J.P. Morgan. However, this is where he's miscalculated, because there's no fecking way he'll secure the Tory leadership, surplus or otherwise. As an aside, there's no fecking way he'll make a surplus.

fullyautomatix
2nd January 2016, 23:52
Next election I will vote for any party that will implement new policies that will enable expensive IT contractors to pay little to no tax.:rolleyes:

AtW
3rd January 2016, 01:42
there's no fecking way he'll make a surplus.

It's possible that he will achieve it. The price however will be so high that core Tory vote will collapse, he won't win the election....

vetran
5th January 2016, 10:11
Not sure the significance of spelling his name with a K?

However, luckily there are not enough foolish people who will vote for this fool. Anyone who does is deluded.

Korban - The Following Wiki - Wikia (http://thefollowing.wikia.com/wiki/Korban)


Korban (also referred to as "Corbin" or "Corban") is the name of the religious cult formed by Micah and his wife Julia in the mid 90's (according to Julia, as of 2014 it was 20 years ago suggesting the cult was founded in 1994). Joe Carroll learns of the cult from his former second-in-command Tim Nelson and a man named Robert, choosing to seek it out as a secondary plan following his faked death and betrayal to Lily Gray. He along with his two remaining followers Emma Hill and Mandy Lang join the group, with Joe's intent to observe the hierarchy and position himself in control.

darmstadt
5th January 2016, 15:31
Actually Osbourne is quite a financial genius:

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11705194_10154098073834358_3178488218496006210_n.j pg?oh=f76c75180ef855cb053b38ef993ce3db&oe=56FF75FC

vetran
5th January 2016, 15:34
Actually Osbourne is quite a financial genius:

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11705194_10154098073834358_3178488218496006210_n.j pg?oh=f76c75180ef855cb053b38ef993ce3db&oe=56FF75FC

The little flipper!