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SpontaneousOrder
14th January 2016, 13:33
I would like to recommend to anyone who hasn't ready it already, "Islam: The future of tolerance".

It's a shot (120 pages or so) dialogue between Sam Harris (scientist/atheist/critic of islam) and Maajid Nawaz (ex Islamist fanatic who was tortured in Egypt, Lib Dem parliamentary candidate & founder of Quilliam - an anti-radicialization outfit).

The book is excellent. I listened to the audio version, narrated by the authors (which is always nice). The audio version also includes a 90 minute postscript in which the authors have a chat about the book's reception shortly after release, and answer questions they solicited. I'd recommend the audio version if you have a choice.

Nawaz outlines strata of acolytes of Islam, increasing in numbers from: Jihadists (islamists who use force to spread islam), islamists (people who want to spread islam as a duty), conservative non-islamist muslims (who, for example, might rail against al qaeda because they view it as them hijacking their religion, whereas less conservative muslims tend to be more tribal and support muslims because they are muslims), and Muslims (who aren't islamists but aren't conservative either)

Both see the need to get muslims into the conservative category, with the view to that being the route to secularism & eventually liberalism (in the classical sense). Many won't go that far - but removing the islamism is the primary & necessary goal.

Harris is critical of islam. Nawaz says that it's, in practise, a religion of peace as the majority are peaceful (with 'peaceful' meaning not militant - support for sharia is huge); But given that the texts are inherently contradictory there can be no 'true' interpretation, labelling any such interpretation as 'vacuous'. Harris agrees although considered islam, in practise, to be much easier than others to be interpreted, 'vacuously', as promoting violence.

Some talk of history & politics.

Some talk of radicalisation ingredients - real or perceived grievance, identity crisis, charismatic recruiter, ideology & it's narrative.

And other stuff.

It's very good. It's a nice friendly (but honest) dialogue, although according to the postscript they were surprised to find the reviews swung from sensing tension, to viewing the pair as both shilling for the same viewpoint.

barrydidit
14th January 2016, 13:55
I would like to recommend to anyone who hasn't ready it already, "Islam: The future of tolerance".

It's a shot (120 pages or so) dialogue between Sam Harris (scientist/atheist/critic of islam) and Maajid Nawaz (ex Islamist fanatic who was tortured in Egypt, Lib Dem parliamentary candidate & founder of Quilliam - an anti-radicialization outfit).

The book is excellent. I listened to the audio version, narrated by the authors (which is always nice). The audio version also includes a 90 minute postscript in which the authors have a chat about the book's reception shortly after release, and answer questions they solicited. I'd recommend the audio version if you have a choice.

Nawaz outlines strata of acolytes of Islam, increasing in numbers from: Jihadists (islamists who use force to spread islam), islamists (people who want to spread islam as a duty), conservative non-islamist muslims (who, for example, might rail against al qaeda because they view it as them hijacking their religion, whereas less conservative muslims tend to be more tribal and support muslims because they are muslims), and Muslims (who aren't islamists but aren't conservative either)

Both see the need to get muslims into the conservative category, with the view to that being the route to secularism & eventually liberalism (in the classical sense). Many won't go that far - but removing the islamism is the primary & necessary goal.

Harris is critical of islam. Nawaz says that it's, in practise, a religion of peace as the majority are peaceful (with 'peaceful' meaning not militant - support for sharia is huge); But given that the texts are inherently contradictory there can be no 'true' interpretation, labelling any such interpretation as 'vacuous'. Harris agrees although considered islam, in practise, to be much easier than others to be interpreted, 'vacuously', as promoting violence.

Some talk of history & politics.

Some talk of radicalisation ingredients - real or perceived grievance, identity crisis, charismatic recruiter, ideology & it's narrative.

And other stuff.

It's very good. It's a nice friendly (but honest) dialogue, although according to the postscript they were surprised to find the reviews swung from sensing tension, to viewing the pair as both shilling for the same viewpoint.

was that a deliberate typo?

LondonManc
14th January 2016, 14:04
Where do honour killings go on the scale and is it a purely Western idea that people feel comfortable if everyone has a label/category?

SpontaneousOrder
14th January 2016, 14:38
Where do honour killings go on the scale and is it a purely Western idea that people feel comfortable if everyone has a label/category?

They touch on that, although I can't remember specifically what they said.

But it falls into the same category as hand-chopping, women's rights, blasphemy laws, etc, etc. Stop the islamists first, then proceed through secularism to liberalism.

xoggoth
14th January 2016, 14:45
The fact that people see the need to write such stuff is proof in itself of a problem.

SpontaneousOrder
14th January 2016, 14:47
The fact that people see the need to write such stuff is proof in itself of a problem.

They both say there's a problem. The booklet is about the nature of the problem and how to solve it.

BrilloPad
14th January 2016, 14:49
120 pages? :eek:

Can someone give me a sound-bite?

MicrosoftBob
14th January 2016, 15:19
They both mean well, I doubt they can do any good though

It's not easy to fix a death cult by dialogue after all

Platypus
14th January 2016, 15:21
alternatively

Islam: What the West Needs to Know DVD 2007 Region 1 US Import NTSC: Amazon.co.uk: DVD & Blu-ray (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Islam-What-West-Needs-Region/dp/B000PE0GQO/ref=sr_1_6?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1452784785&sr=1-6&keywords=islam)