"Full-stack" developer roles - IR35 alarm bells?

[Milkyway]

I find a new trend these days in contracting, where most of the roles are described (even in the interview stage) as being full-stack developer roles - i.e. be able to be a "jack of all. but master of none" - everything from High-end design to WPF, MVC, ASP.NET, HTML, JavaScript, sql dba, etc

I wonder how one can even justify such an expertise in their CV, unless they are bluffing their way in.

So, given there is no specialist role required in most of the contracts these days, does this not raise IR35 Alarm bells?
They say it is "jack of all" work - i.e. kindly decorated with the term "full-stack developer" , and hence there is no way to get work spec upfront from the end-client in writing, in order to safeguard for being outside IR35.

Well, I suppose most of the contractors don't care about IR35 (many seem to think they have "opted out" of it!!), but if we do care, what is the way out?
I usually manage to get my work specs upfront and agreed -since i do specialist work/deliverables, so it was always safe, but with this new trend of "full-stack developer" roles only being available, what is the way to protect oneself from IR35?

[SueEllen]

The roles are project based to work in agile environments.

They are fine to make prototypes but not a fully working app/system simply as no one has the complete skills and knowledge to make a fully working product that is completely useable, functional and secure.

[Milkyway]

The roles are project based to work in agile environments.

They are fine to make prototypes but not a fully working app/system simply as no one has the complete skills and knowledge to make a fully working product that is completely useable, functional and secure.

Agreed, but almost ALL of the roles I see these days in contracting being advertised are all these "jack of all" roles though.
I think it has deep IR35 implications though straight-away! Not sure how others are managing this situation.
I have tried to stay away from these types of roles, but it looks like there is going to be no way out of this, since this is the trend these days.

And I cannot and don't see HMRC taking into account this "agile" nature of the IT business, in their guidelines and rules for IR35.

[SueEllen]

Agreed, but almost ALL of the roles I see these days in contracting being advertised are all these "jack of all" roles though.

Roles that are advertised on job boards are either being filled* or hard to fill.

The ones that are hard to fill are due to low rate, undesirable location or unrealistic skills wanted.

These full stack developer scopes tend to fall into the latter.

*I've interviewed and got roles that appeared on job boards as soon as I was agreeing the contract.

[ShandyDrinker]

I agree with some of the concerns on this thread but a lack of deliverables in the contract due to an Agile environment is completely different to requiring a full stack developer.

Even if it means padding out what the project is and what the end deliverable is I always try to get that for my contracts. Even in an Agile environment they should know what the end goal is.

My interpretation of the full stack developer is somewhat different to yours. I believe adverts for this kind of contractor (and indeed those that put they are a full stack developer on their CV) gives the impression that they should be an expert in all those particular disciplines which, in my opinion, rarely exists, particularly in technology. Things are moving so fast it is hard to become an expert in all of the technologies before the next big thing has come along. I've little doubt someone will be along shortly to tell me they're an expert in everything

[Flibble]

I had exactly this argument with the big boss at one firm. He claimed that he only hired full stack developers, to which my response was "what, you mean no-one here actually knows what they are doing?"

It seems to be fashionable, along with throwing in "agile" to Project Management roles.

[jmo21]

Struggling to see the worry here.

So long as you deal with all the usual ir35 issues, I just don't see how the 'full stack developer' thing would have any affect.

Not having a schedule certainly would, but I don't see how that is related to being a FSD.

[fool]

My interpretation of the full stack developer is somewhat different to yours. I believe adverts for this kind of contractor (and indeed those that put they are a full stack developer on their CV) gives the impression that they should be an expert in all those particular disciplines which, in my opinion, rarely exists, particularly in technology. Things are moving so fast it is hard to become an expert in all of the technologies before the next big thing has come along. I've little doubt someone will be along shortly to tell me they're an expert in everything

I could pass for full stack, as in I can get and have had contracts in sysadmin, backend, and front end separately in the last two years where I've actually delivered work which the client is happy with and I'd state is of a high quality.

The advantage of this is you have a guy that knows how it all ties together and can point out when a single discipline member of the team is making a decision which is good for them but not particularly good for the rest of the team.

Sure, I don't particularly know or care about the latest fad node framework that you've decided to use that's going to go stop being supported in 6 months, 3 months after you've left the project, but that doesn't really change the fundamentals.

[dx4100]

I can happily work in the front, middle, back, database, services, SOA, architect a system, operate as a tester or project manager, #### insert any buzz word... That to me is full stack...

I don't have to be an out and out expert in all those areas I just need to be competent and be able to do a professional job.

I find its only big blue chip or very tech based companies that want a dedicated backend developer or a dedicated front end developer for example.

Lots of smaller companies need people who can do a good job at everything and can't afford a whole bunch of experts in each layer etc.

I don't see what impact it has on IR35 at all.