PDA

View Full Version : Seven risks of voting to remain



OwlHoot
20th April 2016, 08:05
Excellent article, which I would urge timid and/or undecided possible remainers to read.

2016-04-18 7 risks in voting Remain (http://capx.co/7-risks-for-voting-remain/) ..



1. Deeper integration

In June, the EU published its response to the euro crisis, a document known as the Five Presidents’ Report. It set out plans for ‘fiscal and political union’, ‘further pooling of decision-making on national budgets’, and harmonisation of ‘insolvency law’, ‘company law’, ‘property rights’ and ‘social security systems.’ It made clear that these things were to be pursued as ‘single market measures’, applying to all 28 states not just those in the euro. This isn’t some think-tank paper, or some manifesto by crackpot MEPs. It represents official Brussels policy. We can’t say we haven’t been warned ...

One point that can't be emphasised enough is that staying in doesn't mean nothing changes, quite the opposite.

We'll find ourselves on a conveyor belt of forced further integration and harmonisation, which the UK will be powerless to resist, whatever pathetic impotent UK politicians like Cameron claim.

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 08:19
It really is quite simple.

We either vote to leave and go our own way or we remain and ultimately get swallowed up in a federal Superstate.

That is the plan and that has been the plan all along.

Of course, they will carry on lying because they know the public will never buy this & the lies alone are enough to make me vote leave without even considering the economic implications.

There really is that much at stake!

VectraMan
20th April 2016, 08:23
More desperate scaremongering by Project Fear.:rolleyes:

BrilloPad
20th April 2016, 08:30
In the UK, whichever parties are voted in, it seems only the interests of big business are served. And where central plans are forced upon everyone - look at the recent pavement car parking incident.

Whether the UK is ruled from a few toffs in London or some Lederhosen clad Berliner seems almost irrelevant.

Either way big business leaders are going to call the shots. And they will probably be based abroad anyway.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 08:34
The idea that the UK is going to get swallowed up and become part of a European superstate is laughable at best...

Voting to leave one of the largest free trade areas in the world is economical suicide....

dx4100
20th April 2016, 08:36
More desperate scaremongering by Project Fear.:rolleyes:

About sums it up...

Can you imagine voting to go with the collective wisdom of Gove, IDS, Farage and Johnson. :smoking Sounds like a really good idea :winker:

Chuck
20th April 2016, 08:39
If the vote is to remain, and I strongly expect that to be the case, even if the result is 51% Remain, 49% Leave, that will be taken as the UK approving of the EU project. It'll be full steam ahead towards further integration without any hint of reform.

We'll be thrown under the wheels as punishment, pour encourager les autres.

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 08:40
More desperate scaremongering by Project Fear.:rolleyes:

Explain please

BrilloPad
20th April 2016, 08:42
Voting to leave one of the largest free trade areas in the world is economical suicide....

Mervyn King, and another 300+ economists, said the same about Geoffrey Howe reforms.

Many said the same about joining the Euro - we had to join. In fact, it is largely the same lot who said we have to join the Euro who are now saying we have to stay in.

It seems to be a religious belief. The in crowd open the bible and read the book of Merkel where it says "the UK shall stay in the Eurozone or a plague of locusts shall be sent to smite you".

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 08:43
About sums it up...

Can you imagine voting to go with the collective wisdom of Gove, IDS, Farage and Johnson. :smoking Sounds like a really good idea :winker:

We would rather go with their collective wisdom than that of the council of ministers for the EU - at least we have the power to get rid of Gove, Johnson, farage and IDS and bring in your mate Corbyn to run things if we want

BrilloPad
20th April 2016, 08:44
We would rather go with their collective wisdom than that of the council of ministers for the EU - at least we have the power to get rid of Gove, Johnson, farage and IDS and bring in your mate Corbyn to ruin things if we want

FTFY

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 08:45
Mervyn King, and another 300+ economists, said the same about Geoffrey Howe reforms.

Many said the same about joining the Euro - we had to join. In fact, it is largely the same lot who said we have to join the Euro who are now saying we have to stay in.

It seems to be a religious belief. The in crowd open the bible and read the book of Merkel where it says "the UK shall stay in the Eurozone or a plague of locusts shall be sent to smite you".

It is the arrogance of believing that unless we give way to the powers that be and the vested interests of the establishment that we are not able to cope.

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 08:45
FTFY


Good point :o

dx4100
20th April 2016, 08:56
Mervyn King, and another 300+ economists, said the same about Geoffrey Howe reforms.

Many said the same about joining the Euro - we had to join. In fact, it is largely the same lot who said we have to join the Euro who are now saying we have to stay in.

It seems to be a religious belief. The in crowd open the bible and read the book of Merkel where it says "the UK shall stay in the Eurozone or a plague of locusts shall be sent to smite you".

We are not in the Eurozone.... :freaky:

BrilloPad
20th April 2016, 09:10
We are not in the Eurozone.... :freaky:

Exactly! Proof that the book of Merkel was made up....

jamesbrown
20th April 2016, 09:17
We are not in the Eurozone.... :freaky:

The Eurozone is structurally flawed and its implosion is inevitable. Germany will never agree to the transfer of wealth necessary to secure the fiscal and political integration that would avoid this. Obviously, We can't shield ourselves fully from that inevitability, but we can minimise the fallout by disassociating ourselves from the political project, and perhaps they will listen and change course. Imagine that. The EU is a fair weather union.

Intel
20th April 2016, 09:20
The idea that the UK is going to get swallowed up and become part of a European superstate is laughable at best...



Text from the 1957 Treaty of Rome:

“Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe ….."
and from article 2 in the treaty:
“closer relations between the States belonging to it”

From the solemn declaration on the EU from June 1983:
"on the basis of an awareness of a common destiny and the wish to affirm the European identity, confirm their commitment to progress towards an ever closer union among the peoples and Member States of the European Community"

From the 1986 Single European Act:
“MOVED by the will to … transform relations as a whole among their States into a European Union”

From the 1992 Maastricht Treaty:
"RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity."

From the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty, a new qualification to the "ever closer union" statement:
“in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”

From the 2009 Lisbon treaty:
"This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen."

From the treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU - the renamed TEC):
"DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe …."


Sounds like a United States of Europe to me.....

VectraMan
20th April 2016, 09:28
The Eurozone is structurally flawed and its implosion is inevitable.

It's CUK 2008 all over again!

If being part of the Euro was on the cards then I would probably vote to leave, as I would if there was a big move towards a European super state. But it's not. Even if the assurances Cameron obtained are entirely worthless, nothing stops us having another in/out referendum in future if either of those things become true. No government, not even a loony left one would dare sign us up to either of those things without a referendum anyway.

We can't move the island, and assuming we want to continue our 50% trade with the EU then we're inextricably linked to what happens there, as we always have been throughout history.

jamesbrown
20th April 2016, 09:40
It's CUK 2008 all over again!

If being part of the Euro was on the cards then I would probably vote to leave, as I would if there was a big move towards a European super state. But it's not. Even if the assurances Cameron obtained are entirely worthless, nothing stops us having another in/out referendum in future if either of those things become true. No government, not even a loony left one would dare sign us up to either of those things without a referendum anyway.

We can't move the island, and assuming we want to continue our 50% trade with the EU then we're inextricably linked to what happens there, as we always have been throughout history.

I'm not sure if you're missing the point or evading it, but this has nothing to do with our membership of the Eurozone. Precisely the opposite, ironically. We cannot avoid the indirect impacts a Eurozone implosion, but a UK within the EU will be on the hook directly. To believe anything else is magical thinking.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 09:45
Exactly! Proof that the book of Merkel was made up....

The only person making stuff up is you :smokin

Intel
20th April 2016, 09:47
It's CUK 2008 all over again!

if there was a big move towards a European super state.

See my previous post. A commitment to "Ever Closer Union" enshrined in multiple treaties over almost 60 years.

Cameron has a vague opt-out with no legally binding treaty to back it up.

When it boils down to it the question is about sovereignty. Do you want to be a British citizen of a citizen of the United States of Europe?

If they actually had the balls to say that that was the aim I think you'd be surprised at how many would actually vote for it. In the current half-assed form however it's the worst of both worlds.....

dx4100
20th April 2016, 09:48
Text from the 1957 Treaty of Rome:

“Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe ….."
and from article 2 in the treaty:
“closer relations between the States belonging to it”

From the solemn declaration on the EU from June 1983:
"on the basis of an awareness of a common destiny and the wish to affirm the European identity, confirm their commitment to progress towards an ever closer union among the peoples and Member States of the European Community"

From the 1986 Single European Act:
“MOVED by the will to … transform relations as a whole among their States into a European Union”

From the 1992 Maastricht Treaty:
"RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity."

From the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty, a new qualification to the "ever closer union" statement:
“in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”

From the 2009 Lisbon treaty:
"This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen."

From the treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU - the renamed TEC):
"DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe …."


Sounds like a United States of Europe to me.....

And yet its 2016 and there is no sign of us being in a European super state....

Intel
20th April 2016, 09:51
And yet its 2016 and there is no sign of us being in a European super state....

We're a lot closer than in 1975 when the UK backed the European Economic Community (more commonly known as the Common Market) in the last referendum.

Since then there has been a drive to "ever closer" political and fiscal union without any form of electoral accountability. If we vote to stay in this time the general trend will continue.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 10:05
We're a lot closer than in 1975 when the UK backed the European Economic Community (more commonly known as the Common Market) in the last referendum.

Since then there has been a drive to "ever closer" political and fiscal union without any form of electoral accountability. If we vote to stay in this time the general trend will continue.

I actually think the UK is in a better political position than it was in 1975.

No one is going to deny we have closer political union. Fiscal union is a hard one to push though. We really haven't got any closer on that issue. We remain totally outside of the Eurozone and the prospect of us joining is very weak.

To push the idea that the united states of Europe is a realistic future for us is laughable. Its never going to happen. Project Fear stuff.

We are having our cake and eating it at the moment. We have a better deal than every other country in the EU. To throw it away makes literally no sense.

Intel
20th April 2016, 10:13
I actually think the UK is in a better political position than it was in 1975.

No one is going to deny we have closer political union. Fiscal union is a hard one to push though. We really haven't got any closer on that issue. We remain totally outside of the Eurozone and the prospect of us joining is very weak.

To push the idea that the united states of Europe is a realistic future for us is laughable. Its never going to happen. Project Fear stuff.

We are having our cake and eating it at the moment. We have a better deal than every other country in the EU. To throw it away makes literally no sense.

The biggest problem for the EU lot is a lack of vision, or the lack of balls to tell the electorate what they actually want to happen. As it stands I'm personally leaning towards out because this "union by a thousand cuts" is like pushing treacle uphill with a pointy stick. If you actually went out and said "We want a USE in the same model as the USA" I'd quite happily vote for that as it shows the kind of drive and determination that we need in the politicians, plus a United States of Europe would achieve a lot more in the world than a loose banding of independent states.

Unfortunately we can only vote for what is on the table and what is on the table at the moment is a tulip sandwich with in-fighting, red-tape and no clear direction. Given the options the only real way to go is out.

VectraMan
20th April 2016, 10:14
See my previous post. A commitment to "Ever Closer Union" enshrined in multiple treaties over almost 60 years.

Which means what exactly? If there's some kind of practical application of it then we need to decide on the basis of what's actually going to happen rather than running round in circles screaming about things that exist only in Kippers' imaginations.


Cameron has a vague opt-out with no legally binding treaty to back it up.

We always have the legal right for another referendum if we really can't opt-out of something we don't like. However the only major real world examples of closer union are the Euro and the Schengen zone, and we opted out of both. What are you so worried about?


When it boils down to it the question is about sovereignty. Do you want to be a British citizen of a citizen of the United States of Europe?
The first one. The second option doesn't exist.

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 10:17
The idea that the UK is going to get swallowed up and become part of a European superstate is laughable at best...

Voting to leave one of the largest free trade areas in the world is economical suicide....

It's already well on the way to being a Superstate.

What else do you call a geographical entity that has a president, it's own flag & constitution & makes its own laws?

The only remaining part of the jigsaw is a common defence force.

Wake up!

VectraMan
20th April 2016, 10:21
What else do you call an entity that has a president, it's own flag & constitution & makes its own laws?

A club?

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 10:25
If we do vote to remain, I can only hope that some other country has the cojones to hold a rerendum and vote to leave & this event will trigger the collapse of the whole rotten project.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 10:32
It's already well on the way to being a Superstate.

What else do you call a geographical entity that has a president, it's own flag & constitution & makes its own laws?

The only remaining part of the jigsaw is a common defence force.

Wake up!

Why is the idea of superstate so scary to you anyway ?

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 10:36
It's CUK 2008 all over again!

If being part of the Euro was on the cards then I would probably vote to leave, as I would if there was a big move towards a European super state. But it's not. Even if the assurances Cameron obtained are entirely worthless, nothing stops us having another in/out referendum in future if either of those things become true. No government, not even a loony left one would dare sign us up to either of those things without a referendum anyway.

We can't move the island, and assuming we want to continue our 50% trade with the EU then we're inextricably linked to what happens there, as we always have been throughout history.

The EU is moving towards the superstate and sooner or later the UK will have to join the EURO - If we do not Cameron and Osborne will not be invited to join the EU for a job on the gravy train.

Intel
20th April 2016, 10:38
Which means what exactly? If there's some kind of practical application of it then we need to decide on the basis of what's actually going to happen rather than running round in circles screaming about things that exist only in Kippers' imaginations.

Therein lies the problem. We can only vote on what is on the table. The implication however is that a European superstate is the target as repeated in those treaties over decades. Incidentally just lumping all those voting to leave as "Kippers" is a little OTT. Some of us are capable of doing the research and making our own minds up without jumping on the UKIP bandwagon.



We always have the legal right for another referendum if we really can't opt-out of something we don't like. However the only major real world examples of closer union are the Euro and the Schengen zone, and we opted out of both. What are you so worried about?


Are we sure we have the legal right for another referendum? The UK supreme court is subservient to the European court of justice. What if they pass legislation on the back of an "in" vote that makes it illegal to have more than 1 referendum every 20 years? I appreciate that this is an edge case and very unlikely without rioting on the streets but it is currently entirely feasible given the EU court overrides our own supreme court.



The first one. The second option doesn't exist.

It will do soon enough. Why do our passports have "European Union" at the very top, above the "United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland" wording?



Again, if the European politicians had the balls to state what the end game looked like and then sold it to the populous in a positive fashion I think most people would go for it. As it stands however it seems doomed to fail because of the political in-fighting.

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 10:39
Why is the idea of superstate so scary to you anyway ?

Ask the Poles, Hungarians Slovaks etc etc. Or you could read some history books and see what happens when states gather power and increase their size and influence or you could look at any large corporate and see how it gets bigger and how it expands or you could read a book called "Janet & John's guide to human behaviour"

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 10:39
Why is the idea of superstate so scary to you anyway ?

It's a Utopian ideal & the history of the USSR should clearly demonstrate that the reality is that it will ultimately need to become a tyranny just in order to keep it together.

BrilloPad
20th April 2016, 10:40
Why is the idea of superstate so scary to you anyway ?

Personally, I would like to see more localisation rather than globalisation. One size fits all does not work.

Also, it would be far easier if the UK shared common values with those we are sharing sovereignty with. The Germans tend to be more hard working and less fun loving than those in the UK, for instance. Sweeping generalisation.

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 10:44
Personally, I would like to see more localisation rather than globalisation. One size fits all does not work.

Also, it would be far easier if the UK shared common values with those we are sharing sovereignty with. The Germans tend to be more hard working and less fun loving than those in the UK, for instance. Sweeping generalisation.

Bring back Derek Hatton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Hatton

dx4100
20th April 2016, 10:45
It's a Utopian ideal & the history of the USSR should clearly demonstrate that the reality is that it will ultimately need to become a tyranny just in order to keep it together.

And the USA ? Or does that not count ? or is that a tyranny in your eyes ?

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 10:48
And the USA ? Or does that not count ?

A new country built on immigration without the centuries old cultural divisions found in Europe.

That is maybe why the EU is so big on mass immigration - mix us all up a bit in order to blur these national / cultural boundaries. I can see an argument for that but I believe it's being done against the will of the people & that in itself is tyrannical.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 10:48
The reactions to my questions is funny and clearly shows the level of madness at operation here :) We are going to become the Soviet Russia :D

Its all fear and madness from the outters. I haven't heard a rational reason for us to leave yet.

In all the way for me :)

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 10:58
And the USA ? Or does that not count ? or is that a tyranny in your eyes ?

The difference between the EU and the USA is that the USA has seen itself as a single country since it chucked the British out and became independent. Furthermore the USA is a first line democracy in a way that the Eu is not. The effects of democracy are that the establishment is being challenged by the people in the USA right now. We may not like Trump but the people are tired of the status quo and are saying so. Something that could never happen in the EU.

The EU is much closer to the Soviet Union in how it is structured. Individual countries were run by leaders "in hock" to the Russian dominated government. The will of the people of poland was delivered not through the government in control but by the third party of the trade union movement.

Intel
20th April 2016, 10:59
The reactions to my questions is funny and clearly shows the level of madness at operation here :) We are going to become the Soviet Russia :D

Its all fear and madness from the outters. I haven't heard a rational reason for us to leave yet.

In all the way for me :)


TFFT. For a second there I thought we were going to go through 2 pages of almost rational debate without descending into general insults and "yo momma so fat" jokes.... ;)

diseasex
20th April 2016, 11:22
You all actually forget that being IN you have the influence over what EU will become.
I consider Uk a good counter balance for german domination in EU. You should stay in or it will be worse for all of us including UK
And i'm talking here about wars , prosperity and future of 400mln people. Being part of something bigger, if at begining flawed, is better than stay aside.

So maybe instead of complaining about curved bananas maybe start working out better system for EU instead leaving it to rumble, risking your own currency , falling apart (scotland, ireland) , risking economy as not being part of one of largest free trade market etc.

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 11:25
You all actually forget that being IN you have the influence over what EU will become. I consider Uk a good counter balance for german domination in EU. You should stay in or it will be worse for all of us including UK
And i'm talking here about wars , prosperity and future of 400mln people. Being part of something bigger, if at begining flawed, is better than stay aside

Yes, of course, Cameron has just demonstrated exactly how much clout we have with his risible attempts at a renegotiation.

diseasex
20th April 2016, 11:26
Yes, of course, Cameron has just demonstrated exactly how much clout we have with his risible attempts at a renegotiation.

Actually he was negotiating with Donald Tusk (pole) and not germany. Because Cameron failed at negotiation doesnt mean other politicians would.

darmstadt
20th April 2016, 11:30
Looks quite true to me:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-09-22/perceptionsEU.png

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 11:32
Actually he was negotiating with Donald Tusk (pole) and not germany. Because Cameron failed at negotiation doesnt mean other politicians would.

Do you think we'd ever have a sufficiently euro sceptic PM to actually have the balls to go in and negotiate something worthwhile as opposed to Cameron's stage managed sham effort?

diseasex
20th April 2016, 11:34
Do you think we'd ever have a sufficiently euro sceptic PM to actually have the balls to go in and negotiate something worthwhile as opposed to Cameron's stage managed sham effort?

thats a problem with your politics and not EU itself. Do you think it will change for better if UK left? I highly doubt that. In fact our politics in Poland , whilst still flawed, gone so much better after we joined the UE. A little bit of oversight from outside don't hurt. And Eu tribunal has allowed us to take unfair court cases out of the country and assure they were "fairer"
As a disclaimer, i'm not entirely pro-eu, but i think out of 2 evils its better, overall, to be IN . That come from experience of a person that was recently in a country out of EU.

Oh and remember- together we had the power to crash Russian's economy ^_^

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 11:40
thats a problem with your politics and not EU itself. Do you think it will change for better if UK left? I highly doubt that. In fact our politics in Poland , whilst still flawed, gone so much better after we joined the UE. A little bit of oversight from outside don't hurt. And Eu tribunal has allowed us to take unfair court cases out of the country and assure they were "fairer"
As a disclaimer, i'm not entirely pro-eu, but i think out of 2 evils its better, overall, to be IN . That come from experience of a person that was recently in a country out of EU.

Oh and remember- together we had the power to crash Russian's economy ^_^

Out of interest, do you remember what came before that?

diseasex
20th April 2016, 11:42
Out of interest, do you remember what came before that?
You mean history of EU or what?

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 11:48
You mean history of EU or what?

No, when Poland was behind the Iron Curtain

diseasex
20th April 2016, 11:50
No, when Poland was behind the Iron Curtain

Yeah i lived then however "only" for 7 years. My parents remember everything though. Happy days

OwlHoot
20th April 2016, 12:05
And the USA ? Or does that not count ? or is that a tyranny in your eyes ?

For the southern states it was a tyranny not so long ago, if you recall, in the 1860s ...

Something similar is quite on the cards for Europe if integration continues, as the EU elite are determined it should.

And if you want to bring the USA in, perhaps you can explain why they were so keen to be shot of the UK back in the 1780s :laugh

d000hg
20th April 2016, 12:12
It really is quite simple.

We either vote to leave and go our own way or we remain and ultimately get swallowed up in a federal Superstate.

That is the plan and that has been the plan all along.Nonsense. Even the keenest Eurozone members are nowhere near being a superstate and show no movement in that direction.


The EU is moving towards the superstate and sooner or later the UK will have to join the EURO - If we do not Cameron and Osborne will not be invited to join the EU for a job on the gravy train.Nonsense.

I'm leaning Leave but I don't see why nonsensical FUD has to be employed.

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 13:02
Nonsense. Even the keenest Eurozone members are nowhere near being a superstate and show no movement in that direction.

Nonsense.

I'm leaning Leave but I don't see why nonsensical FUD has to be employed.

That's because it's a gradual ratcheting process.

You don't notice the movement until it's too late.

As I keep saying, we already are practically in a Superstate when you consider where so much of the power lies.

diseasex
20th April 2016, 13:04
That's because it's a gradual ratcheting process.

You don't notice the movement until it's too late.

As I keep saying, we already are practically in a Superstate when you consider where so much of the power lies.

Send your delegates and change it

dx4100
20th April 2016, 13:18
As I keep saying, we already are practically in a Superstate when you consider where so much of the power lies.

What apparent bit of devolved power is ruining your life ?

d000hg
20th April 2016, 13:20
That's because it's a gradual ratcheting process.

You don't notice the movement until it's too late.

As I keep saying, we already are practically in a Superstate when you consider where so much of the power lies.

a)No we're not
b)No it doesn't
c)If we are and it does, then it actually doesn't really seem to matter if people don't mind

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 13:29
What apparent bit of devolved power is ruining your life ?

Too many immigrants

diseasex
20th April 2016, 13:31
Too many immigrants

If economy couldn't support them they wouldn't have come.
Ideally what you want is to scrap them from privileges to pension etc and make them work for country and not get anything in return ie. slavery.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 13:33
Too many immigrants

:freaky: :freaky: :freaky:

Go on then... How is immigration running your life :)

What direct consequence has it had on you ?

diseasex
20th April 2016, 13:35
:freaky: :freaky: :freaky:

Go on then... How is immigration running your life :)

What direct consequence has it had on you ?

he has to wait few days longer for NHS appointment

dx4100
20th April 2016, 13:41
he has to wait few days longer for NHS appointment

So he can get treated by the immigrant doctors, immigrant nurses, get pushed around by the immigrant porters and when he gets older he will be cared for by immigrant nursing home staff :freaky:

All paid for by the taxes of the immigrant workers :)

Maybe I should leave him to :tantrum:

Gumbo Robot
20th April 2016, 13:42
a)No we're not
b)No it doesn't
c)If we are and it does, then it actually doesn't really seem to matter if people don't mind

Of course people will mind. Hence the lack of candour from the powers that be.

Do you really think there's be a majority for remain if they were honest about their intentions?

Then again, nothing would surprise me...

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 13:49
So he can get treated by the immigrant doctors, immigrant nurses, get pushed around by the immigrant porters and when he gets older he will be cared for by immigrant nursing home staff :freaky:

All paid for by the taxes of the immigrant workers :)

Maybe I should leave him to :tantrum:

On that argument why not hire the entire population of Nigeria. we can treble the workforce, treble the taxes treble the doctors and nurses.

darmstadt
20th April 2016, 13:51
Oooh, look, the fascists are coming, which says a lot for where Bexiters stand: EU referendum: Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit on UK visit | UK Politics | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-marine-le-pen-french-front-national-uk-visit-a6992301.html)

dx4100
20th April 2016, 13:52
On that argument why not hire the entire population of Nigeria. we can treble the workforce, treble the taxes treble the doctors and nurses.

Oh look.... A totally sensible reply from an outter... :freaky:

dx4100
20th April 2016, 13:53
:freaky: :freaky: :freaky:

Go on then... How is immigration running your life :)

What direct consequence has it had on you ?

:tumble:

dx4100
20th April 2016, 13:56
Oooh, look, the fascists are coming, which says a lot for where Bexiters stand: EU referendum: Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit on UK visit | UK Politics | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-marine-le-pen-french-front-national-uk-visit-a6992301.html)

The company you keep and all that :winker:

LondonManc
20th April 2016, 14:00
Text from the 1957 Treaty of Rome:

“Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe ….."
and from article 2 in the treaty:
“closer relations between the States belonging to it”

From the solemn declaration on the EU from June 1983:
"on the basis of an awareness of a common destiny and the wish to affirm the European identity, confirm their commitment to progress towards an ever closer union among the peoples and Member States of the European Community"

From the 1986 Single European Act:
“MOVED by the will to … transform relations as a whole among their States into a European Union”

From the 1992 Maastricht Treaty:
"RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity."

From the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty, a new qualification to the "ever closer union" statement:
“in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”

From the 2009 Lisbon treaty:
"This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen."

From the treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU - the renamed TEC):
"DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe …."


Sounds like a United States of Europe to me.....

To think, only Wilmslow aspired to be USEless....


Oooh, look, the fascists are coming, which says a lot for where Bexiters stand: EU referendum: Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit on UK visit | UK Politics | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-marine-le-pen-french-front-national-uk-visit-a6992301.html)

Hitler wanted a European superstate. Run that one by me again. :winker:

Mordac
20th April 2016, 14:12
Send your delegates and change it

The last one we sent was Peter Mandelson - a man so corrupt he had to be fired twice. That pretty much sums up the EU for me...:eyes

diseasex
20th April 2016, 14:13
The last one we sent was Peter Mandelson - a man so corrupt he had to be fired twice. That pretty much sums up the EU for me...:eyes

whats EU have to do with this?

dx4100
20th April 2016, 14:15
The last one we sent was Peter Mandelson - a man so corrupt he had to be fired twice. That pretty much sums up the EU for me...:eyes

Considering he was a UK MP for such a long time then what does it say about Westminster ? The thing you seem to want to put all your eggs in ?

dx4100
20th April 2016, 14:17
whats EU have to do with this?

EU now getting blamed for Peter Mandelson :D

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 14:19
Considering he was a UK MP for such a long time then what does it say about Westminster ? The thing you seem to want to put all your eggs in ?

Of course you are the surrender monkey that argues that we are better off being run by an EU that has no democratic mandate. Given that the two greatest crises we face have been caused or failed to be dealt with - meltdown of economies with the EURO and mass immigration - you are rather worrying. Or are you some Europhile "plant" on the EU payroll?

dx4100
20th April 2016, 14:21
Of course you are the surrender monkey that argues that we are better off being run by an EU that has no democratic mandate. Given that the two greatest crises we face have been caused or failed to be dealt with - meltdown of economies with the EURO and mass immigration - you are rather worrying. Or are you some Europhile "plant" on the EU payroll?

I think you need to go learn what democratic mandate means and update your thinking :)

I will give you a hint. Democracy isn't always about YOU getting everything YOU want :smoking

I noticed you ducked answering my question on how immigration has directly ruined your life :)

Intel
20th April 2016, 14:26
I will give you a hint. Democracy isn't always about YOU getting everything YOU want :smoking



In Intel's dystopian paradise Intel will always get what he wants and those that displease him will be sent to the UK version of "Escape from New York".....known as "Escape From The Shetland Islands".

Vote Intel!

OwlHoot
20th April 2016, 14:28
I noticed you ducked answering my question on how immigration has directly ruined your life :)

It is increasingly ruining a lot of young people's lives, by maintaining and increasing crazy house prices. Ask PurpleGorilla.

diseasex
20th April 2016, 14:30
Of course you are the surrender monkey that argues that we are better off being run by an EU that has no democratic mandate. Given that the two greatest crises we face have been caused or failed to be dealt with - meltdown of economies with the EURO and mass immigration - you are rather worrying. Or are you some Europhile "plant" on the EU payroll?

You're putting mass immigration and meltdown of economies next to each other.

Flashman
20th April 2016, 14:31
I think you need to go learn what democratic mandate means and update your thinking :)

I will give you a hint. Democracy isn't always about YOU getting everything YOU want :smoking

I noticed you ducked answering my question on how immigration has directly ruined your life :)

Government of the people, by the people, for the people Have a think about that one and see if it applies to the EU Commission.

And then have a read through this leaflet.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/images/pdfs/euandpovertybriefing.pdf

STUART ROSE, who was ExecutiveChairman of Marks & Spencer, speaking to MPs suggested that wages of low skilled workers could rise in the event of Britain leaving the EU. According to the former M&S boss, if there were restrictions on EU migrants, then “the price of labour will, frankly, go up”.

darmstadt
20th April 2016, 14:32
To think, only Wilmslow aspired to be USEless....



Hitler wanted a European superstate. Run that one by me again. :winker:
So does Bernie Ecclestone by the sounds of it: Vladimir Putin should be in charge of Europe, says Bernie Ecclestone | Sport | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/19/bernie-ecclestone-vladimir-putin-in-charge-europe-sir-martin-sorrell). Another fascist, or more probably dictatorial outer, by the sounds of it

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 14:33
I think you need to go learn what democratic mandate means and update your thinking :)

I will give you a hint. Democracy isn't always about YOU getting everything YOU want :smoking

I noticed you ducked answering my question on how immigration has directly ruined your life :)

I was in A&E in Chelsea before christmas with a friends son who had injured himself playing hockey and the queue was stuffed with eastern Europeans
I cannot get my 4 year old child into a school in Banstead at the moment - "off the record" we are oversubscribed with many eastern EU migrant children. The same school employs two Polish teachers to give extra english tuition. And the local big issue distribution is dominated by Romanians and whilst this has no direct effect on me there is a cost just like everything else of supporting people we do not choose to allow in to the UK.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 14:34
It is increasingly ruining a lot of young people's lives, by maintaining and increasing crazy house prices. Ask PurpleGorilla.

So the UK failure to build more houses over decades is being blamed on immigrants wanting to take up jobs here.

You see the break down in thinking on where the problem lies ?

So a UK failure is blamed on the EU and the cycle continues.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 14:37
I was in A&E in Chelsea before christmas with a friends son who had injured himself playing hockey and the queue was stuffed with eastern Europeans
I cannot get my 4 year old child into a school in Banstead at the moment - "off the record" we are oversubscribed with many eastern EU migrant children. The same school employs two Polish teachers to give extra english tuition. And the local big issue distribution is dominated by Romanians and whilst this has no direct effect on me there is a cost just like everything else of supporting people we do not choose to allow in to the UK.

My friends son

Off the record

No direct effect

All these immigrants coming here blah blah blah, but when you ask how its affecting YOU, you get a lot of waffle and unverifiable rhetoric.

:smokin

OwlHoot
20th April 2016, 14:45
So the UK failure to build more houses over decades is being blamed on immigrants wanting to take up jobs here.

You see the break down in thinking on where the problem lies ?

So a UK failure is blamed on the EU and the cycle continues.

The reason for the "failure" is immaterial, if failure it even is after literally millions of dwellings _have_ been built "over decades" and it would be rather nice to have some countryside and agricultural industry left in this country.

The fact remains that continuing to allow unrestricted immigration, which staying in the EU clearly will do, is making the problem far worse (as well is continuing to decrease wages and job insecurity, among other problems).

I'm afraid you are the one suffering a breakdown in rational thinking here.

diseasex
20th April 2016, 14:48
The reason for the "failure" is immaterial, if failure it even is after literally millions of dwellings _have_ been built "over decades" and it would be rather nice to have some countryside and agricultural industry left in this country.

The fact remains that continuing to allow unrestricted immigration, which staying in the EU clearly will do, is making the problem far worse (as well is continuing to decrease wages and job insecurity, among other problems).

I'm afraid you are the one suffering a breakdown in rational thinking here.


I think the worst is long gone now. And if immigrants can't get a job or benefits they go back to their country in 90% of cases
You are kind of victim of your own success. Immigrant can come to London and get a job the next day. And you, mostly owners, can only benefit from cheap workforce.
The thickos will always complain and look for easy victims though

dx4100
20th April 2016, 14:51
The reason for the "failure" is immaterial, if failure it even is after literally millions of dwellings _have_ been built "over decades" and it would be rather nice to have some countryside and agricultural industry left in this country.

The fact remains that continuing to allow unrestricted immigration, which staying in the EU clearly will do, is making the problem far worse (as well is continuing to decrease wages and job insecurity, among other problems).

I'm afraid you are the one suffering a breakdown in rational thinking here.

So your plan for the UK is less jobs, less people and more sheep.

And at the same time you claim a EU exit is going to be positive for our economy :)

My thinking is immigrants come here for jobs, jobs being created in an economy that works. Its an utter failure of successive UK governments over decades not to build enough houses to accommodate the workers needed for the jobs being created and that makes life hard on the ones not on the property ladder.

You want to paint that as a problem made in the EU when the UK is clearly at fault. I would say this highlights why people like you are very much a problem to the future success of this country.

You want to keep the nice view outside of your cottage at the expense of the future life chances of my, and even your own, children. I say :winker: to that.

diseasex
20th April 2016, 14:55
So your plan for the UK is less jobs, less people and more sheep.

And at the same time you claim a EU exit is going to be positive for our economy :)

My thinking is immigrants come here for jobs, jobs being created in an economy that works. Its an utter failure of successive UK governments over decades not to build enough houses to accommodate the workers needed for the jobs being created and that makes life hard on the ones not on the property ladder.

You want to paint that as a problem. I would say this highlights why people like you are very much a problem to the future success of this country.

You want to keep the nice view outside of your cottage at the expense of the future life chances of my, and even your own, children. I say :winker: to that.

Well said,
I feel that vote NO comes mostly out of greed - to keep what units already have, not necessarely to benefit of the society.
They want a cake for themself whereas they could have a larger pie as a society
They want to have shorter queue to free NHS, they want to send their mediocre kid to the best school etc

jbond007
20th April 2016, 14:58
I was in A&E in Chelsea before christmas with a friends son who had injured himself playing hockey and the queue was stuffed with eastern Europeans
I cannot get my 4 year old child into a school in Banstead at the moment - "off the record" we are oversubscribed with many eastern EU migrant children. The same school employs two Polish teachers to give extra english tuition. And the local big issue distribution is dominated by Romanians and whilst this has no direct effect on me there is a cost just like everything else of supporting people we do not choose to allow in to the UK.


With your margins and contractor placements, would have thought it was private school all the way :wink

dx4100
20th April 2016, 15:02
With your margins and contractor placements, would have thought it was private school all the way :wink

We are meant to believe the average contractor is fighting for school places with droves of poor eastern European immigrants :)

OwlHoot
20th April 2016, 15:16
I feel that vote NO comes mostly out of greed - to keep what units already have, not necessarely to benefit of the society.

They want a cake for themself whereas they could have a larger pie as a society

They want to have shorter queue to free NHS, they want to send their mediocre kid to the best school etc

Ah bless - One of those starry eyed virtue signalling idealists who profess to care more about the whole wide World than their own country (if the UK even is your country, which I doubt).

What, pray, is wrong with wanting to send your mediocre kid to the best school, instead of some place completely dumbed down to suit the needs of immigrants who can barely speak English (as many schools in the UK already are) ?

I suspect dx4100 may side with me on that, as he seems to want the best for his kids. :laugh

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 15:21
My friends son

Off the record

No direct effect

All these immigrants coming here blah blah blah, but when you ask how its affecting YOU, you get a lot of waffle and unverifiable rhetoric.

:smokin

I can see quite easily what you are trying to do here. If I were a paid stooge with no argument to make I would do the same. What I will say is that we have our own opinions and experiences. Sometimes we make opinions and judgements on matters of which we have no experience whatsoever. If we look at the logic of what you are trying to do which is that we are not entitled to be against something unless we experience something negative against ourselves then few of us would be permitted to have any opinion on many topics - like terrorism, farming, pollution, NHS abortion or criminal sentencing. I would imagine the list to be pretty endless of things that stooges like you believe that we should not have an opinion on.
Most of us have been affected by immigration - for good or bad large or small. What we are entitled however is our opinion and to be free to speak as we like - something your friends in the EU would put a stop to if they have their way http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/angela-merkel-germany-turkey-erdogan-censorship.html?_r=0

diseasex
20th April 2016, 15:22
Ah bless - One of those starry eyed virtue signalling idealists who profess to care more about the whole wide World than their own country (if the UK even is your country, which I doubt).

What, pray, is wrong with wanting to send your mediocre kid to the best school, instead of some place completely dumbed down to suit the needs of immigrants who can barely speak English (as many schools in the UK already are) ?

I suspect dx4100 may side with me on that, as he seems to want the best for his kids. :laugh

Competition is good.
To be honest - in recent years there were about 1 milion of Ukrainians that have come to Poland to work (you might not believe it but look it up) .
And general response of poles is "let them come , as many as possible". People know they are hard working, have similar culture and speak their language.

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 15:23
With your margins and contractor placements, would have thought it was private school all the way :wink

My 2 kids go to good comps - leaves me more money for things I like doing :tongue

diseasex
20th April 2016, 15:24
My 2 kids go to good comps - leaves me more money for things I like doing :tongue

send them to Poland - we get school for free =)

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 15:24
I think the worst is long gone now. And if immigrants can't get a job or benefits they go back to their country in 90% of cases
You are kind of victim of your own success. Immigrant can come to London and get a job the next day. And you, mostly owners, can only benefit from cheap workforce.
The thickos will always complain and look for easy victims though

We need to control exactly what immigrants we allow or invite to live and work in the UK

diseasex
20th April 2016, 15:26
We need to control exactly what immigrants we allow or invite to live and work in the UK

You control it - from outside of EU
Are you aware that last year there was 300k immigrants from EU and 600k from outside of eu which YOU let in and gave Visas?
Then why not tacle that whooping 600k before going after eastern europe from the same UNION?

dx4100
20th April 2016, 15:26
Ah bless - One of those starry eyed virtue signalling idealists who profess to care more about the whole wide World than their own country (if the UK even is your country, which I doubt).

What, pray, is wrong with wanting to send your mediocre kid to the best school, instead of some place completely dumbed down to suit the needs of immigrants who can barely speak English (as many schools in the UK already are) ?

I suspect dx4100 may side with me on that, as he seems to want the best for his kids. :laugh

Ever thought it might be your kid they are dumbing it down for :smokin

Mordac
20th April 2016, 15:28
What, pray, is wrong with wanting to send your mediocre kid to the best school, instead of some place completely dumbed down to suit the needs of immigrants who can barely speak English (as many schools in the UK already are) ?

Exactly right OH. If you aren't trying to do the best for your kids, you're failing as a parent. I've lost count of the number of friends from the area where I grew up who moved out of the borough because the majority of pupils couldn't speak English. I moved out 20 years ago, and I don't even have kids...:ohwell

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 15:33
You control it - from outside of EU
Are you aware that last year there was 300k immigrants from EU and 600k from outside of eu which YOU let in and gave Visas?
Then why not tackle that whooping 600k before going after eastern europe from the same UNION?

Why should we ignore the 300k until we can solve the 600K. I do not see the logic

diseasex
20th April 2016, 15:35
Why should we ignore the 300k until we can solve the 600K. I do not see the logic

Because you don't have free movement treaty with Asia ?????????????

I'm out

DodgyAgent
20th April 2016, 15:43
Because you don't have free movement treaty with Asia ?????????????

I'm out

What has that got to do with anything? We are talking about the EU and controlling EU immigration. I do not see what non EU migration has to do with this

Mordac
20th April 2016, 15:51
Why should we ignore the 300k until we can solve the 600K. I do not see the logic

Quite - the 300k is an estimated figure - since EU citizens can pretty much come and go as they choose.
The 600k is mainly made up of premiership footballers, Russian billionaires and Indian body shop workers - and we need them, if there were no fecked up projects to fix, we'd be out of a job...:happy

dx4100
20th April 2016, 17:24
I can see quite easily what you are trying to do here. If I were a paid stooge with no argument to make I would do the same. What I will say is that we have our own opinions and experiences. Sometimes we make opinions and judgements on matters of which we have no experience whatsoever. If we look at the logic of what you are trying to do which is that we are not entitled to be against something unless we experience something negative against ourselves then few of us would be permitted to have any opinion on many topics - like terrorism, farming, pollution, NHS abortion or criminal sentencing. I would imagine the list to be pretty endless of things that stooges like you believe that we should not have an opinion on.
Most of us have been affected by immigration - for good or bad large or small. What we are entitled however is our opinion and to be free to speak as we like - something your friends in the EU would put a stop to if they have their way http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/angela-merkel-germany-turkey-erdogan-censorship.html?_r=0

You are entitled to your opinion but I am also entitled to show it up as being baseless. Which you have already admitted to be the case.

Much of the outters opinion is utterly baseless.

original PM
20th April 2016, 17:29
You all actually forget that being IN you have the influence over what EU will become.
I consider Uk a good counter balance for german domination in EU. You should stay in or it will be worse for all of us including UK
And i'm talking here about wars , prosperity and future of 400mln people. Being part of something bigger, if at begining flawed, is better than stay aside.

So maybe instead of complaining about curved bananas maybe start working out better system for EU instead leaving it to rumble, risking your own currency , falling apart (scotland, ireland) , risking economy as not being part of one of largest free trade market etc.


I think you miss the point.

I want out because I do not care about the EU or the unelected politician's and other sycophantic hangers on.

It can collapse under the weight of it's own bull shit as far as I am concerned.

On another note it seems the one of the reasons why we should stay in is because it is better economically...

So it seems that every member nation gets out more than it put's in - well spank me on the bottom with a woman's weekly if I don't question that logic.

sasguru
20th April 2016, 17:29
This discussion is useless. The referendum will be a vote to remain, whatever you think of that.

dx4100
20th April 2016, 17:30
What has that got to do with anything? We are talking about the EU and controlling EU immigration. I do not see what non EU migration has to do with this

Well it's somethng we control and do a terrible job with. The net cost of EU migration is proven positive while the net cost of non EU migration is proven to be negative from a money point of view.

The concept things will be better if we can control it ourselves seems to be based in fantasy.

sasguru
20th April 2016, 17:31
On another note it seems the one of the reasons why we should stay in is because it is better economically...

So it seems that every member nation gets out more than it put's in - well spank me on the bottom with a woman's weekly if I don't question that logic.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. Trade and open markets lead to broad benefits for all participants

d000hg
20th April 2016, 19:26
So it seems that every member nation gets out more than it put's in - well spank me on the bottom with a woman's weekly if I don't question that logic.That's rather the entire point of the whole thing you fool, that by working together everyone is better off than going it alone. You never heard the saying "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"?

LondonManc
20th April 2016, 20:04
Well it's somethng we control and do a terrible job with. The net cost of EU migration is proven positive while the net cost of non EU migration is proven to be negative from a money point of view.

The concept things will be better if we can control it ourselves seems to be based in fantasy.

Do you trust George Osbourne to spend your hard-earned more wisely than you do? Case closed.

original PM
20th April 2016, 20:17
That's rather the entire point of the whole thing you fool, that by working together everyone is better off than going it alone. You never heard the saying "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"?

Yes well I do like lager and sausage so maybe the Germans are on for a cultural victory as well as a diplomatic one....

dx4100
20th April 2016, 20:44
Do you trust George Osbourne to spend your hard-earned more wisely than you do? Case closed.

Say what? You have lost me...

darmstadt
21st April 2016, 06:08
You couldn't make it up, Vote Leave admit lying: 'Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies': Vote Leave's campaign director defies MPs | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/20/accuracy-is-for-snake-oil-pussies-vote-leaves-campaign-director-defies-mps?CMP=share_btn_fb)


“I don’t think it’s Vote Leave’s job to provide figures,” Cummings announced triumphantly, his eyes swivelling manically.
“But Vote Leave quotes numerous figures on its website,” said Tyrie, “Most of them misleading or inaccurate.”
“Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies,” Cummings hissed under his breath. “And besides, I’ve got a really bad memory.”


Another moron working for Vote Leave, where do they get them from and why does the right have so many of them :laugh

DodgyAgent
21st April 2016, 07:17
You are entitled to your opinion but I am also entitled to show it up as being baseless. Which you have already admitted to be the case.

Much of the outters opinion is utterly baseless.

I at least we can spell our names correctly :laugh

Old Greg
21st April 2016, 07:33
I at least we can spell our names correctly :laugh

I see.

dx4100
21st April 2016, 07:49
I at least we can spell our names correctly :laugh

An extra t vs pages of utter dribble. Yup you came out of this thread looking like a winner :winker:

BrilloPad
21st April 2016, 07:54
An extra t vs pages of utter dribble. Yup you came out of this thread looking like a winner :winker:

Is this a sasguru sockie? No reasoning - just insults.

sassy - go back to sh4gging the au pair there's a good chap.

sasguru
21st April 2016, 07:55
You couldn't make it up, Vote Leave admit lying: 'Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies': Vote Leave's campaign director defies MPs | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/20/accuracy-is-for-snake-oil-pussies-vote-leaves-campaign-director-defies-mps?CMP=share_btn_fb)



Another moron working for Vote Leave, where do they get them from and why does the right have so many of them :laugh

Saw it on a clip. Astonishing how really very stupid he was.
If I was a waverer I would have decided to vote the exact opposite of what he represented.

sasguru
21st April 2016, 07:56
Is this a sasguru sockie? No reasoning - just insults.

sassy - go back to sh4gging the au pair there's a good chap.

Not me - I've been banned from sockies.

dx4100
21st April 2016, 08:03
Whats a sockie? multiple accounts?

vetran
21st April 2016, 08:21
Whats a sockie? multiple accounts?

help it is becoming self aware!

dx4100
21st April 2016, 08:24
Lmao

I am not a sockie :P but I suppose a sockie would say that?

diseasex
21st April 2016, 08:26
help it is becoming self aware!

:ladybags: