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Supervision Direction and Control

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    Supervision Direction and Control

    I've been working at a company for a...while now (2.5 years!). At first the work was given to me and on a case by case basis and I'd be able to do it in my own time and use my own equipment.

    As time went on I found myself being more included into the team and the company. I now have a direct manager there who not only structures my work but also tells me how to do it.

    Additionally they're wanting to impose codes of conduct and they want me to be included in that. I'm worried that this almost now certainly places me under SDC.

    What do you think the best approach is for me to reach an amicable solution, one that perhaps lets me still keep them as a client? (On another note I'm not keen on being told how to behave haha)

    #2
    Talk to your client.

    Explain the situation from your point of view & see what they say. Know what you want to get out of the chat before you go in. Keeping them as a client but the freedom to decide when to work / how to complete projects etc.

    All the client has to lose is a bit of control which they may or may not be comfortable with. This will probably come down to individual ego / the person who thinks they are "your boss" worrying about how it looks to the permies vs. how much they need you.

    The lines get blurred in my experience & but I would not be at ease in your situation.

    It may be a little late. I find you need to set expectations early on in the relationship & distinguish yourself from staff.
    Lisa: "Gary, you can't blame yourself for what gorillas did."

    Comment


      #3
      I'd say you are fully part and parcel which is a much bigger problem. SDC is just one part of it but if the client has an expectation that you are part of the workforce the rest kinda pales in to insignificance. This is exactly why long gigs are a risk and the longer you there the effort required to stay outside IR35 increases exponentially.

      Obviously the devil is in the details but work being given to you on a case by case basis sounds a problem already unless this is very clearly defined in your work schedule. If your schedule says you are a Developer and they are just giving you new work when the old one expires you are already on very thin ice... but I don't know the details...

      Best approach IMO is to leave and get back to being a contractor.

      You could of course just buy insurance and get on with it but I think that's part of the problem that's being foisted on those that try and it's not a right smart thing to do. You are a contractor, not a permatractor happy to tick boxes and ignore the risk.
      'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
        <snip>
        Best approach IMO is to leave and get back to being a contractor.

        You could of course just buy insurance and get on with it but I think that's part of the problem that's being foisted on those that try and it's not a right smart thing to do. You are a contractor, not a permatractor happy to tick boxes and ignore the risk.
        A lot depends on his specific circumstances: if he has an in-demand skill and can find work in his preferred location then great, he can up and leave. But given that he's been at the client for 2.5 years seems to indicate that his expertise is either niche or best suited to big programmes of work of which there might not be many around, so he can't easily move around contracts.

        Hopefully he's already got insurance but additionally he needs to change his ways of working so that he is not seen as part and parcel. Or if ever challenged for IR35, he can agree as to which renewal he became part and parcel - for example it might have been after 12 months.

        I've always had long term engagements but I clearly remain a contractor, which has p1ssed off my current client no end - but it's what I need to do and they are putting up with me because they have to (for now).

        Things you can do - for example:
        - stay away from all company events unless representing your Co and having it pay for the event (or to attend).
        - WFH, even better if you can have this written into your contract.
        - zero day notice period.
        - make sure you manage your working day
        - etc
        -(please add more as I have to take a long lunch now, because My Co allows me to work any hours I want to)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ChimpMaster View Post
          A lot depends on his specific circumstances: if he has an in-demand skill and can find work in his preferred location then great, he can up and leave. But given that he's been at the client for 2.5 years seems to indicate that his expertise is either niche or best suited to big programmes of work of which there might not be many around, so he can't easily move around contracts.
          You are right but I'd strongly disagree with this. The number of contractors that are in gigs because they are niche compared to the number of permatractors at clients that just don't rid of contractors will be tiny. I've been in at least two clients where the average time for a contractor must be upwards of 2 years +. First thing the fellow contractors say when you walk in is 'You'll be here for life'. Being given work on a case by case basis for 2.5 years defaults to a permatractor to me. I'd have to be told otherwise to agree. Possible yes, likely? I'm not convinced.

          Hopefully he's already got insurance but additionally he needs to change his ways of working so that he is not seen as part and parcel. Or if ever challenged for IR35, he can agree as to which renewal he became part and parcel - for example it might have been after 12 months.
          Quite but listening to that I'd say the horse has bolted and he's going to have a very difficult time to convince them.

          I've always had long term engagements but I clearly remain a contractor, which has p1ssed off my current client no end - but it's what I need to do and they are putting up with me because they have to (for now).

          Things you can do - for example:
          - stay away from all company events unless representing your Co and having it pay for the event (or to attend).
          - WFH, even better if you can have this written into your contract.
          - zero day notice period.
          - make sure you manage your working day
          - etc
          -(please add more as I have to take a long lunch now, because My Co allows me to work any hours I want to)
          IMO all these should be done from day one. As soon as they slip you're done. Expectation has changed and it's very difficult to put it back. It becomes a game and the client gets increasingly frustrated. They are all minor flags as well, important to evidence I would say, but minor flags. If you are part and parcel it will become very clear to an investigation.

          Sometimes it just happens and there is nothing you can do about it. You are there a long time, human nature will kick in and they will treat you like a colleague (most act like one so don't help themselves) and the gig slips inside IR35. It happens and you have to deal with it. Sitting there thinking you can save every gig and fix it is wrong. You can try play the game but you then become very high risk and you have to deal with that. No point pretending.

          And just to be pedantic...

          stay away from all company events unless representing your Co and having it pay for the event (or to attend). - No brainer...
          - WFH, even better if you can have this written into your contract. - Pemies can work from home. This isn't a differentiator really.
          - zero day notice period. - Notice periods aren't really much of a differentiator. I certainly wouldn't be altering mine to something I don't want just for IR35.
          - make sure you manage your working day - Don't see why anyone wouldn't do this, permie or contractor
          - etc - Lazy bugger
          'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
            You are right but I'd strongly disagree with this.
            NLUK, right there, in a nutshell.
            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
              - WFH, even better if you can have this written into your contract. - Pemies can work from home. This isn't a differentiator really.
              True, but only if SDC is a slam-dunk case. If SDC is debatable at all, WFH can help you argue that you aren't under it.

              But the biggest value of WFH in a case like this is that it can help to break the client's perception that you are part & parcel, and can help to change the client's mindset and behaviour. So don't see it as a silver bullet (it's not even close to that), but it CAN help change the whole narrative here, which is sounding pretty bad for IR35.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by WordIsBond View Post
                True, but only if SDC is a slam-dunk case. If SDC is debatable at all, WFH can help you argue that you aren't under it.

                But the biggest value of WFH in a case like this is that it can help to break the client's perception that you are part & parcel, and can help to change the client's mindset and behaviour. So don't see it as a silver bullet (it's not even close to that), but it CAN help change the whole narrative here, which is sounding pretty bad for IR35.
                This client I contract at does not have a WFH policy and employees are only ever allowed to WFH on very rare occasions if pre-planned and a good reason is given. I have differentiated myself by having a clause in my (direct-to-client) contract that states "the consultancy" can choose to carry out its activities wherever it chooses.

                Management here hate me for that and have often tried to rope me in 5 days a week, but I always WFH once, twice or thrice a week. And they have no idea what I work on, though clearly they know I am getting on with it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by kevla View Post
                  I've been working at a company for a...while now (2.5 years!). At first the work was given to me and on a case by case basis and I'd be able to do it in my own time and use my own equipment.

                  As time went on I found myself being more included into the team and the company. I now have a direct manager there who not only structures my work but also tells me how to do it.

                  Additionally they're wanting to impose codes of conduct and they want me to be included in that. I'm worried that this almost now certainly places me under SDC.

                  What do you think the best approach is for me to reach an amicable solution, one that perhaps lets me still keep them as a client? (On another note I'm not keen on being told how to behave haha)
                  Difficult to answer without any context or examples - the client will give you work but is allowed to put a deadline on said work.

                  He can give you work that has to comply with their technical design docs.

                  To me that isn't SDC.

                  How are they telling you to behave? As long as you're being professional then I'd say sod them

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by LondonManc View Post
                    NLUK, right there, in a nutshell.

                    OK. Maybe I should have highlighted the bit I think was right, and the bit after that I didn't agree with...
                    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

                    Comment

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