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rl4engc
21st April 2016, 22:29
Paddy Ashdown was looking extremely urined off; sounding like a scratched record going on about "financial institutions" and "Security". You can tell he's been told what to say.

Where the real issue (and the crowd and most of the panel; Fox, Weatherspoon Chap seem to agree) is concerning the loss of sovereignty/independence)

Interesting.

SlipTheJab
22nd April 2016, 07:39
I was in 2 minds but am now for Brexit after Cameron got all His mates to come along and tell me what to do, Obama can feck right off!

Troll
22nd April 2016, 07:43
I was in 2 minds but am now for Brexit after Cameron got all His mates to come along and tell me what to do, Obama can feck right off!

Have to admit Obama wading in got the bile rising

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 07:48
Have to admit Obama wading in got the bile rising

Don't see why - he's telling it from the US point of view (which, unusually, happens to be cross party, the Republicans think exactly the same - one of the few things they agree on).

A relatively powerless, possibly economically weaker, offshore island is obviously of no use to the US.
If I was the US president and the UK leaves, I'd concentrate all my diplomatic efforts on Germany.

BrilloPad
22nd April 2016, 07:53
Thing that really gets me about Obama is not being able to fly my drone next to Heathrow. B'stard....

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 08:07
On Brexit, Obama speaks for America » The Spectator (http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/on-brexit-obama-speaks-for-america/)

tomtomagain
22nd April 2016, 08:21
If I was the US president and the UK leaves, I'd concentrate all my phone hacking efforts on Germany.

FTFY

Chuck
22nd April 2016, 08:26
Thing that really gets me about Obama is not being able to fly my drone next to Heathrow. B'stard....

Why? He flew in to Stanstead.

DodgyAgent
22nd April 2016, 08:29
Don't see why - he's telling it from the US point of view (which, unusually, happens to be cross party, the Republicans think exactly the same - one of the few things they agree on).

A relatively powerless, possibly economically weaker, offshore island is obviously of no use to the US.
If I was the US president and the UK leaves, I'd concentrate all my diplomatic efforts on Germany.

What by bombing them again?

DodgyAgent
22nd April 2016, 08:31
Don't see why - he's telling it from the US point of view

y.

You are spot on

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you | Comment | Voices | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html)

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 08:35
What by bombing them again?

That's the problem with Brexiteers, stuck in the past.
Living in a cloud cuckoo fantasy-land where they think Brexit will magically reset the clocks and Britannia will rule the waves again, as opposed to the reality of a post-Empire, and most importantly, post-industrial country having to survive in an increasingly globalised world, where the power is held by large corporations, not governments.

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 08:40
You are spot on

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you | Comment | Voices | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html)

Yes and what do you think would happen in a weak post Brexit UK.?
We'd just have to swallow US demands.
My take on past UK history is that we'd become even more of a vassal of the US - a low cost, low-wage economy, low-protection for workers, undercutting Europe as the only way to survive.
The poor haven't seen anything yet.

DodgyAgent
22nd April 2016, 08:53
Yes and what do you think would happen in a weak post Brexit UK.?
We'd just have to swallow US demands.
My take on past UK history is that we'd become even more of a vassal of the US - a low cost, low-wage economy, low-protection for workers, undercutting Europe as the only way to survive.
The poor haven't seen anything yet.

Do you really think any UK government would ever allow USA enterprises to take over the running of the NHS. If you do then you are more of a Cretin than the sum parts of all the other CUK Cretins added together. Also do you really think that the British are so useless that they would end up as the servants of Europe? No doubt you think that by brown nosing the elite by sneering at the rest of the British and suggesting they need your class of Cretins to decide what is good for us they might let you join. No chance. The closest you will ever get is to stand at the change machine doling out 20 pence pieces at the Houses of Parliament bogs whilst the bigwigs go and have a dump. And if you do really well one or two of them might invite you to carry out some "Bidet" duties.

:laugh:laugh:laugh

Then there is this
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/663365/Question-Time-audience-proves-Britain-UK-leave-Brexit-European-Union-back-envelope

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 08:58
Do you really think any UK government would ever allow USA enterprises to take over the running of the NHS. If you do then you are more of a Cretin than the sum parts of all the other CUK Cretins added together. Also do you really think that the British are so useless that they would end up as the servants of Europe? No doubt you think that by brown nosing the elite by sneering at the rest of the British and suggesting they need your class of Cretins to decide what is good for us they might let you join. No chance. The closest you will ever get is to stand at the change machine doling out 20 pence pieces at the Houses of Parliament bogs whilst the bigwigs go and have a dump. And if you do really well one or two of them might invite you to carry out some "Bidet" duties.

:laugh:laugh:laugh

Then there is this

blob:http%3A//players.brightcove.net/e9708053-52d8-40c7-809c-1d46dc4c7e49


Lots of guff as usual because you can't argue the point.
Which is, without some of the protections provided by Europe, the country is more than likely to become more US style economically - after all that has been the British elite's (of the right-wing persuasion anyway) instinct for decades - and it's not something I agree with.

darmstadt
22nd April 2016, 09:24
Do you really think any UK government would ever allow USA enterprises to take over the running of the NHS.[/URL]

Yes, here's just a few of the American companies either partnering with the NHS, provide PFI or just plainly, have taken over parts of the NHS:

http://www.hcahealthcare.co.uk/about-hca/nhs-ventures/ (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/663365/Question-Time-audience-proves-Britain-UK-leave-Brexit-European-Union-back-envelope)
[url]https://www.tenethealth.com/
Your private healthcare choice - Aspen Healthcare | Aspen (http://www.aspen-healthcare.co.uk/)
https://www.optum.com/
UnitedHealth Group - Health Benefits and Services - Home (http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/)
https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org/html/kaiser/index.shtml


provides electronic staff records services to the NHS, which include things such as payroll, pensions and other human resources functions. The company took over after another US company, the drug distributor and healthcare services company McKesson (http://www.mckesson.com/), decided to shift its focus away from the UK market. IBM’s service covers about 1.4m employees at the NHS. IBM has promised to modernise the electronic staff records and make them easily accessible from mobile devices. IBM holds a five-year contract with the NHS to administer the records.

OwlHoot
22nd April 2016, 10:17
That's the problem with Brexiteers, stuck in the past.
Living in a cloud cuckoo fantasy-land where they think Brexit will magically reset the clocks and Britannia will rule the waves again, as opposed to the reality of a post-Empire, and most importantly, post-industrial country having to survive in an increasingly globalised world, where the power is held by large corporations, not governments.

Make a one-line crack, Dodgy, and you get an essay in reply! :laugh

Sas seems to actually approve of large corporations wielding the power, instead of democratically elected goernments.

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 10:20
Sas seems to actually approve of large corporations wielding the power, instead of democratically elected goernments.

Far from it but I live in the real world.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/07/eu-multinationals-tax-arrangements-us-google-amazon

If a post Brexit UK did that, the firms would simply say Fook Orf, you're not a large enough market.

My basic point is that UK governments of left and right have a habit of caving in to large corporations to the detriment of the UK citizen (look at Labour and the finance industry and the Tories and their puny tax on Google). That will only increase post-Brexit as they'll have even less leverage.

BlasterBates
22nd April 2016, 10:36
A lot of Brexiters "frothing at the mouth" after Obama's speech :D

Mordac
22nd April 2016, 12:51
A lot of Brexiters "frothing at the mouth" after Obama's speech :D

Add one more to the list...:mad:

SunnyInHades
22nd April 2016, 13:12
Where the real issue is concerning the loss of sovereignty/independence)


This is key for many.

One example .. although some years the UK may require more net EU migrants than 300k, some years less, currently the EU bureaucrats can just give the UK a two fingered salute to our requirements whilst shouting back 'we make the rules you insignificant subordinate, you'll take as many as we decide - obey'.

diseasex
22nd April 2016, 13:20
You are spot on

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you | Comment | Voices | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html)

I'm actually waiting for TTIP. Free trade woohoo!!!

The_Equalizer
22nd April 2016, 13:21
Far from it but I live in the real world...

That will only increase post-Brexit as they'll have even less leverage.

That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 14:06
That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

Do you a think a country's place in the world is fixed?
Also I'm not sure which jackboot you're talking about - the big corps?

DodgyAgent
22nd April 2016, 15:01
That is until the plebs get ****ed off with being under the jackboot. A set of national traits seems to define how a place does in the World and you're under estimating the British.

He thinks he is a cu*t above your average Brit who needs to be told what to do by the rich, powerful and privileged elite. I think he has been recruited by the establishment to perform "Jehovah's witness" style hiring tasks under the (false) premise that one day they might let him join their club :happy

The_Equalizer
22nd April 2016, 15:10
Do you a think a country's place in the world is fixed?
Also I'm not sure which jackboot you're talking about - the big corps?

Of course it's not guaranteed, however, why do half the World pour money into London propery? I think it's fair to say it's because the UK is a relatively stable, secure nation that's not prone to revault or rebellion.

The jackboot I was referring to was the government. I guess it doesn't matter if it's because big firms are leaning on it.

From the Bremainers I've seen I would say that their heart isn't in Britain, or should I say being British.

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 15:27
From the Bremainers I've seen I would say that their heart isn't in Britain, or should I say being British.

I would say the opposite. As an OP posted yesterday, it is profoundly un-British to withdraw into insularity.
British foreign policy has for centuries been to be a counterweight to domination of the continent by one power.
In modern times, this means getting involved in Europe economically, since no one expects domination of Europe will be achieved militarily.
So remaining is analogous to fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars. At that time Britain could have withdrawn or made peace with Germany letting them do what they wanted on the continent in exchange for not getting involved.

And I don't buy that Britain has no influence in Europe. On the contrary, the Europeans have lost their enthusiasm for socialism/communism and embraced what the left calls "neoliberalism" a la Thatcher.
That's why the Corbynytes can't bring themselves to like Europe.

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 15:43
He thinks he is a cu*t above your average Brit who needs to be told what to do by the rich, powerful and privileged elite. I think he has been recruited by the establishment to perform "Jehovah's witness" style hiring tasks under the (false) premise that one day they might let him join their club :happy

Honestly, the dribble you post only confirms the stereotypes of agents :laugh

The_Equalizer
22nd April 2016, 15:54
I would say the opposite. As an OP posted yesterday, it is profoundly un-British to withdraw into insularity.
British foreign policy has for centuries been to be a counterweight to domination of the continent by one power.
In modern times, this means getting involved in Europe economically, since no one expects domination of Europe will be achieved militarily.
So remaining is analogous to fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars. At that time Britain could have withdrawn or made peace with Germany letting them do what they wanted on the continent in exchange for not getting involved.

And I don't buy that Britain has no influence in Europe. On the contrary, the Europeans have lost their enthusiasm for socialism/communism and embraced what the left calls "neoliberalism" a la Thatcher.
That's why the Corbynytes can't bring themselves to like Europe.


Brexit isn't about 'withdraw into insularity' as you know. It's about managing our own affairs and looking beyond Europe as we always have done. The EU is not acting in unison with Britain as an equal partner; we, if anything, are seen as an annoyance, but good for the cash. We are certainly not a counterweight to German/French dominance from within. Just looks at Cameron’s non-existent reforms. He came back pretty much emptyhanded.

Your World War comments are precisely why Brexiters are passionate. Withdrawal would probably deal a fatal blow. Where is this EU project going? Sitting pretty here in the UK it's easy to ignore the failings, but large chucks of southern Europe are in real trouble. Youth unemployment in Portugal is 30%, Spain is above 45% and Greece is above 50%. Everyone knows there’s another Euro crisis coming with regards Greek debt. Migrant boats are out in force again. Another 500 odd drowned, tens of thousands on the move and we’ve yet to see how the EU bribe to Turkey will work out.

I am also pretty sure that France would disagree with your view that it subscribes to neoliberalism.

Personally, I have no interest in being a subordinate part in the EU. We’re not some basket case backwater. We’d be fine ‘standing on our own two feet’.

sasguru
22nd April 2016, 16:46
Brexit isn't about 'withdraw into insularity' as you know. It's about managing our own affairs and looking beyond Europe as we always have done. The EU is not acting in unison with Britain as an equal partner; we, if anything, are seen as an annoyance, but good for the cash. We are certainly not a counterweight to German/French dominance from within. Just looks at Cameron’s non-existent reforms. He came back pretty much emptyhanded.

Your World War comments are precisely why Brexiters are passionate. Withdrawal would probably deal a fatal blow. Where is this EU project going? Sitting pretty here in the UK it's easy to ignore the failings, but large chucks of southern Europe are in real trouble. Youth unemployment in Portugal is 30%, Spain is above 45% and Greece is above 50%. Everyone knows there’s another Euro crisis coming with regards Greek debt. Migrant boats are out in force again. Another 500 odd drowned, tens of thousands on the move and we’ve yet to see how the EU bribe to Turkey will work out.

I am also pretty sure that France would disagree with your view that it subscribes to neoliberalism.

Personally, I have no interest in being a subordinate part in the EU. We’re not some basket case backwater. We’d be fine ‘standing on our own two feet’.

There's quite a bit I disagree with there:

- "Sitting pretty in the UK" - Well we're not all that "pretty" fiscally or in any other financial way. Quite a lot of our so-called prosperity is funded by debt or the housing ponzi scheme. Yes some of the Southern European states are struggling but that's to be expected after the biggest depression in modern times, caused it must be said by Anglo-Saxon bankers.
- Youth unemployment in the UK is officially 16% but that doesn't count all the youth in artificial training, crap degrees or other dodgy schemes.
- France may not subscribe to neoliberalism, but it has a far more enlightened (read: privatised) healthcare system than our Soviet model which is the elephant in the room that no one wants to reform.
- Fine on our own 2 feet? Which industrial British businesses (other than British Aerospace or RR) exactly do you think are world class? This is something Brexiteers completely ignore - the reality that Britain is post-industrial. Yes we have world class service companies, but these are increasingly "knowledge" companies that by their nature cannot employ that half of the population that are of under average intelligence. Quite a lot of what's left of British manufacturing is intimately tied in with Europe.

Finally I agree that Britain should not be subordinate in Euroland. But a lot of that is down to the half-hearted way we approach it. What happened to British diplomacy? - we have more in common with the Germans than the French do, but the French spend effort and time on that relationship.