Convince me to vote BREXIT

**darmstadt** · 24 May 2016, 08:31

A reasonable summary, just one quibble, the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU but is a separate entity. More reform is needed and TTIP is tulip and needs to be flushed down the big toilet of never to be seen again stupid ideas.

**JozefBlofeld** · 24 May 2016, 08:33

Originally posted by SimonMac View Post

I am on the fence on the EU Referendum, and if that's still the case on 23rd June I will vote to stay, better the devil you know and all that, so now is your chance to convince me to vote to leave.

TITP

This is a big unknown, the fact that the trade agreement is being conducted in secret does not bode well, however most commercially sensitive negotiations take place behind closed doors, I think its highly unlikely that agreeing to TITP will mean the end of the NHS (some say the Tories have been doing this already without the need for TITP) but I think the NHS is too big to go down the route of full privatisation, as has been shown with PFI being brought into schools the areas where it didn't work quickly became apparent and were reversed, however the areas that could be modernised, could be improved upon has shown great success.

You don't get a vote on TTIP. Once TTIP is enforced so then is ISDS. You thereafter have no say or idea what happens as all laws and disputes will be held IN PRIVATE in supra-national courts.

Immigration, Economy, and Sovereignty will mean nothing thereafter. Secret courts will decide your future. American multinationals can thereafter sue the British taxpayer at will.

David Cameron is a drooling proponent of TTIP. Ergo vote against anything he says, vis #BREXIT.

**DimPrawn** · 24 May 2016, 08:43

Vote in is a vote in for:

EU Army. If you want some unknown, unelected group, whose motives you've no idea about, deciding who we defend against and who we attack, vote in.

When Turkey and the others join, latest projections show 5m extra arrivals will settle here legally under EU freedom of movement. We will not have a veto on this, for a start Camoron has said their is no need to veto it, he thinks it's wonderful news. If you want this, vote in.

Longer term, a vote in means giving complete control to the EU superstate. Who knows what they will decide next. One thing is for sure, you will have no voice in what is decided.

A vote in is a vote to remove democracy and hand power over forever.

Enjoy!

**SimonMac** · 24 May 2016, 08:46

Originally posted by JozefBlofeld View Post

You don't get a vote on TTIP. Once TTIP is enforced so then is ISDS. You thereafter have no say or idea what happens as all laws and disputes will be held IN PRIVATE in supra-national courts.

Immigration, Economy, and Sovereignty will mean nothing thereafter. Secret courts will decide your future. American multinationals can thereafter sue the British taxpayer at will.

David Cameron is a drooling proponent of TTIP. Ergo vote against anything he says, vis #BREXIT.

Wow that is a great argument, a lot of agree with him during the last election so I assume not everyone will hold your view.

Also as a point of order, we don't get to vote on anything, its why we have elections for MP's to vote on our behalf.

Anyway, reading this https://fullfact.org/europe/ttips-secret-courts/

UNCITRAL, the other major system, was so concerned at the lack of transparency that it changed its rules recently. They now say that decisions must be published, hearings should be public, and third parties (such as NGOs) can make arguments in the case. But this only applies to new investment treaties, and countries can agree to leave this part of the rules out.

Where the new rules don't apply, "the very existence of a dispute can be kept secret if both parties so wish". The EU has included the new UNCITRAL rules on transparency, with some modification, in a draft treaty with Canada that's similar to TTIP.

So it looks like some of this is being mitigated, also from the same site the majority of decisions go for the government, also from the same site

ISDS claims typically come from companies based in relatively rich countries; the respondents are more likely to be poorer nations. Investors from the EU and US account for three-quarters of all claims.

So we are more likely to benefit from ISDS than not.

The debate about whether the ISDS system should be included in TTIP is ongoing. The European Parliament has recommended that "the inclusion of any form of private arbitration courts in TTIP must be ruled out".

The EU Trade Commissioner has expressed support for a permanent court to replace the ISDS procedure, and wants TTIP to allow for appeals and changes to how arbitrators are selected.

So its still up in the air at the moment

**vetran** · 24 May 2016, 08:50

Immigration

Yes British people remain on benefits this is because they will have more to live on and won't have to wipe bums.
Cheap labour willing to spend a few years living 6 to a room has kept the bottom end wages down. Instead of coming out of a recession and the wages rising they are stagnant widening the rich / poor gulf.

Some may be paying tax on minimum wages but as we know most employees are a net drain on the country. If we want real wealth we need more people earning above average wage.

Yes I find lazy people on the dole annoying but the solution of forcing people onto workfare is not one the EU permits.
Yes ICT is annoying but it has nothing to do with the EU.

Security

Indeed we seem to have had a better record than other countries, if we are indeed pooling our information it suggests we are better off alone without pourus borders and a larger area to protect, or even a Europe wide intelligence service which would logically follow an EU wide army.

The fact our masters suggest Intelligence sharing would suffer shows how Venal the current setup is. Are these people ones we really want to be in bed with?

Sovereignty

There can be none, if we vote remain our masters will take that to mean we agree with the EU project of ever closer union, welcome to being a region of France & Germany.

Economy

Well our economy has done so well in Europe, I wonder what would happen if we could trade freely?

TITP

Considering we don't have a casting vote in this or anything else this should be enough to make you vote out.

Enough?

**Old Greg** · 24 May 2016, 08:53

Originally posted by JozefBlofeld View Post

You don't get a vote on TTIP. Once TTIP is enforced so then is ISDS. You thereafter have no say or idea what happens as all laws and disputes will be held IN PRIVATE in supra-national courts.

Immigration, Economy, and Sovereignty will mean nothing thereafter. Secret courts will decide your future. American multinationals can thereafter sue the British taxpayer at will.

David Cameron is a drooling proponent of TTIP. Ergo vote against anything he says, vis #BREXIT.

I would have no faith in a UK government inside or outside the EU standing up to TTIP, or similar agrements. However, the French are good at this kind of thing, so staying inside the EU will put us under their umbrella:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...ock-eu-us-deal

**missinggreenfields** · 24 May 2016, 08:54

Originally posted by JozefBlofeld View Post

David Cameron is a drooling proponent of TTIP. Ergo vote against anything he says, vis #BREXIT.

Not convinced that the logic of "Cameron likes XYZ. I don't like XYZ therefore I'll vote to leave the EU" quite works.

Cameron likes the extension of academies and free schools. I don't like the idea of academies and free schools. Therefore, should I vote to leave the EU?

**SimonMac** · 24 May 2016, 08:55

Originally posted by DimPrawn View Post

Vote in is a vote in for:

EU Army. If you want some unknown, unelected group, whose motives you've no idea about, deciding who we defend against and who we attack, vote in.

When Turkey and the others join, latest projections show 5m extra arrivals will settle here legally under EU freedom of movement. We will not have a veto on this, for a start Camoron has said their is no need to veto it, he thinks it's wonderful news. If you want this, vote in.

Longer term, a vote in means giving complete control to the EU superstate. Who knows what they will decide next. One thing is for sure, you will have no voice in what is decided.

A vote in is a vote to remove democracy and hand power over forever.

Enjoy!

Turkey will never* join the EU, the pace of change that they require before even being considered is glacial at best, of the 33 Acquis communautaire Turkey have closed one chapter in eleven years, and that is on Science & Research.

The other massive stumbling block is Northern Cyprus, Turkey will never be admitted while it is still in dispute with Greece

**VectraMan** · 24 May 2016, 08:57

Originally posted by JozefBlofeld View Post

You don't get a vote on TTIP. Once TTIP is enforced so then is ISDS. You thereafter have no say or idea what happens as all laws and disputes will be held IN PRIVATE in supra-national courts.

Immigration, Economy, and Sovereignty will mean nothing thereafter. Secret courts will decide your future. American multinationals can thereafter sue the British taxpayer at will.

David Cameron is a drooling proponent of TTIP. Ergo vote against anything he says, vis #BREXIT.

You don't get a vote on anything our leaders sign us up to. You thereafter have no say etc. etc.

I'm not convinced about TTIP to be honest. But there's no doubt that if it goes ahead without the UK the UK will be at a disadvantage with the US, and our relationship with the US is pretty significant both economically and culturally. If there's any merit to the argument that free from the EU we can make better trade deals elsewhere then the US is surely the one we absolutely must nail, and that very likely means another TTIP style agreement anyway. Except this time it'll be negotiated in haste and our side the much weaker and smaller partner.

So TTIP is another one that can go firmly into the category of things that aren't likely to be any different post Brexit. Along with fishing, immigration, spending on the NHS, etc. etc.

The security argument is bollocks. I'm a bit annoyed that the sensible-camp have put that forward as an argument. They should leave the ridiculous arguments to the Brexiters.

Sovereignty is a word most of the population had probably never heard of until this referendum debate. If you're poor, unemployed, starving and miserable it's hard to see that sovereignty is very high on your list of priorities. But we only follow EU laws because we choose to follow EU laws, and the very fact we're having a referendum proves beyond all doubt that we're not forced (and were not forced) into doing anything. Therefore our sovereignty is absolutely fine.

Convince me to vote BREXIT