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ClothCap
9th June 2016, 07:57
So listening to Farage and co it seems that they aren't against immigration, just EU immigration.

In fact all brexiteers seem hell bent on reinstating commonwealth immigration, in particular from India.

Sure they mutter things about points-based systems, but we know how those types of controls can be fiddled with.

So is an 'out' vote really just a vote for fast-track visas and intra-company transfers a la 2003?

BlasterBates
9th June 2016, 08:11
Yes the Leave campaign is promising more non-EU immigration it seems:

https://next.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15


Vote Leave is hoping to secure the backing of British Asians by telling them that if Britain quits the EU, it will mean more immigration from elsewhere in the world.

but it will be "controlled immigration"

You have to differentiate between uncontrolled immigration and controlled immigration.

GB9
9th June 2016, 08:15
You have to distinguish between immigration we want and immigration we don't want. Ethnicity and creed don't come into it. Just how useful you are. A bit like a contractor to a pimp.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 08:22
You have to distinguish between immigration we want and immigration we don't want. Ethnicity and creed don't come into it. Just how useful you are. A bit like a contractor to a pimp.

It's this. At the moment Europeans of all races and creeds (though mostly white I suspect) can enter, stay, claim benefits, with no checks on "usefulness" or economic benefit to the UK.

Once out of the EU, we can pull useful people from all over the World, this will mean more Africans, Asians etc as the EU numbers are restricted by the same immigration points system.

That's the theory anyways.

I suspect in practice it will be the usual shambolic, uncontrolled entry of whoever is cheapest from wherever to keep the big tax dodging companies happy...

ClothCap
9th June 2016, 08:22
You have to distinguish between immigration we want and immigration we don't want. Ethnicity and creed don't come into it. Just how useful you are. A bit like a contractor to a pimp.

Have you no recollection of how contracting was hammered under the FTV scheme? Rates plummeted

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 08:23
Have you no recollection of how contracting was hammered under the FTV scheme? Rates plummeted

and never recovered (and never will).

HTH BIDI

northernladuk
9th June 2016, 08:24
You have to distinguish between immigration we want and immigration we don't want. Ethnicity and creed don't come into it. Just how useful you are. A bit like a contractor to a pimp.

And how much baggage you bring with you. 1 skilled contractor with 15 dependants isn't going to work either.

shaunbhoy
9th June 2016, 08:24
You have to differentiate between uncontrolled immigration and controlled immigration.

Exactly. Think of it like changing to a healthy diet. You will still need to eat, it is just that you will be eating things that are good for you rather than being force-fed a "Greggs" supersize regime.

:tongue

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 08:24
You have to differentiate between uncontrolled immigration and controlled immigration.

Because controlled immigrants don't put pressure on schools, the NHS or other public services; don't put pressure on housing because they don't need places to live, don't clog up the roads, etc. etc. Those are the complaints Brexiters have about immigration, not how qualified everyone is.

I wonder if Vote Leave announced that they planned to increase immigration over what it is now how much support they'd have by the end of the week? As it is they keep very quiet on numbers.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 08:27
Because controlled immigrants don't put pressure on schools, the NHS or other public services; don't put pressure on housing because they don't need places to live, don't clog up the roads, etc. etc. Those are the complaints Brexiters have about immigration, not how qualified everyone is.

I wonder if Vote Leave announced that they planned to increase immigration over what it is now how much support they'd have by the end of the week? As it is they keep very quiet on numbers.

Immigration should fall after Brexit as the millions of EU loafers are told to get out......yeah right, even I don't believe that will happen.

northernladuk
9th June 2016, 08:28
So listening to Farage and co it seems that they aren't against immigration, just EU immigration.

In fact all brexiteers seem hell bent on reinstating commonwealth immigration, in particular from India.

Sure they mutter things about points-based systems, but we know how those types of controls can be fiddled with.


Farage has never been Anti-Immigration though. People that go UKIP bashing just need to understand what they are proposing better. Plenty of other things to bash them about but being 'Anti-immigration' isn't one of them. When someone mentions this in a discussion just shut them down and move on to something else because they aren't making a reasonable argument to start off with.

Ukip immigration policy explained - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11476780/immigrant-policy.html)

From April 15


Ukip says it recognises the benefits of "limited, controlled" immigration. Work permits would be issued to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market such as in the health service. But EU workers, who currently have the right to live and work in the UK, would face the same points-based system and time-limited work permits that currently applies to non-EU migrants


So is an 'out' vote really just a vote for fast-track visas and intra-company transfers a la 2003?

So you've understood a little bit more..... but still not enough it appears.

DodgyAgent
9th June 2016, 08:34
Farage has never been Anti-Immigration though. People that go UKIP bashing just need to understand what they are proposing better. Plenty of other things to bash them about but being 'Anti-immigration' isn't one of them. When someone mentions this in a discussion just shut them down and move on to something else because they aren't making a reasonable argument to start off with.

Ukip immigration policy explained - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11476780/immigrant-policy.html)

From April 15





So you've understood a little bit more..... but still not enough it appears.

Those that effectively support open doors immigration refuse to accept Farage's logical and sensible "controlled immigration" policy. Instead of admitting that they believe in uncontrolled immigration they instead smear him as being racist and anti immigration

LondonManc
9th June 2016, 08:39
Those that effectively support open doors immigration refuse to accept Farage's logical and sensible "controlled immigration" policy. Instead of admitting that they believe in uncontrolled immigration they instead smear him as being racist and anti immigration

Typical socialists. If it looks like you're losing the immigration argument, cry racism.

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 08:44
Once out of the EU, we can pull useful people from all over the World, this will mean more Africans, Asians etc as the EU numbers are restricted by the same immigration points system.


'useful' needs to be qualified here. Shelf-stackers, call centres, burger flippers, hairdressers.

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 08:56
As always emmigration gets left out of the debate. You only talk about who we let in here, not the opportunities for British people that will now be limited.

The_Equalizer
9th June 2016, 08:57
As always emmigration gets left out of the debate. You only talk about who we let in here, not the opportunities for British people that will now be limited.

So what you're saying is British talent will be more likely to stay in Britain?

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 08:59
So what you're saying is British talent will be more likely to stay in Britain?

Yep. British retirees as well. By force.

jamesbrown
9th June 2016, 09:02
As always emmigration gets left out of the debate. You only talk about who we let in here, not the opportunities for British people that will now be limited.

Left out? What part of net migration don't you understand? I've worked all over the world, in countries with widely varying immigration systems. Funny that. If you're worth your tulipe, it's not a problem. Just some additional admin. I'm looking forward to having my "opportunities limited".

Forgotmylogin
9th June 2016, 09:03
Yep. British retirees as well. By force.

Yes, because at the moment any retirees expressing an interest in going to any country outside the EU are locked up and held in internment camps. :eyes

darmstadt
9th June 2016, 09:10
Those that effectively support open doors immigration refuse to accept Farage's logical and sensible "controlled immigration" policy. Instead of admitting that they believe in uncontrolled immigration they instead smear him as being racist and anti immigration

Like an Australian points based system which has in fact increased immigration: United Nations Population Division | Department of Economic and Social Affairs (http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/migration/data/estimates2/estimates15.shtml)


In 2015, 13.2% off the UK population was from “international migrant stock”. By contrast, the proportion was 28.6% in Australia, 22.6% in Canada and 14.7% in the US - all higher than the UK

ClothCap
9th June 2016, 09:14
I think I have understood it. Voting no does not make immigration go away and reintroduces cheap non-eu labour. The 'controlled' bit is a smokescreen that will be fudged to allow cheap labour eventually as that is the driving force for mass immigration anyway.

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 09:17
Left out? What part of net migration don't you understand? I've worked all over the world, in countries with widely varying immigration systems. Funny that. If you're worth your tulipe, it's not a problem. Just some additional admin. I'm looking forward to having my "opportunities limited".

Nobody mentioned net migration. All the talk is about immigration controls; importing the people we need. I don't disagree with that; it would of course be better that way. But what we have with the EU is different to what we have with say India. We have a right of two way migration, and as much as it would be better if it was a little less in one direction more than the other, overall I think that's a good thing in the same way that free trade is a good thing. I'd like to see the same with more countries; Australia and New Zealand for example, but only if it's a reciprocal agreement. I wouldn't mind at all the opportunity to go work in one of those places for a year or two to see what it's like, but as it is I'm probably too old to qualify (at 44). However I can get into another 31 countries at any age for any reason. Until that is you take it away because you're alright jack.

The rich and/or highly qualified can probably go wherever they like. This is more about ordinary people, and they have the most to gain from the EU and the most to lose from Brexit.

Forgotmylogin
9th June 2016, 09:19
Like an Australian points based system which has in fact increased immigration: United Nations Population Division | Department of Economic and Social Affairs (http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/migration/data/estimates2/estimates15.shtml)

Yes, Australia decided that they needed to increase immigration, so they increased the number of visas issued.
If they decide to reduce the number of visa they issue then they can do that also.

What's your point?

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 09:19
Yes, because at the moment any retirees expressing an interest in going to any country outside the EU are locked up and held in internment camps. :eyes

If you can't get out then the UK is in effect one big internment camp. I don't want to live in one.

Forgotmylogin
9th June 2016, 09:22
If you can't get out then the UK is in effect one big internment camp. I don't want to live in one.

The point is... duh duh duuuunnnn.... They can get out.

You seem to be suggesting that if free movement of people to the EU was removed then people wouldn't be able to leave the UK.

You do realise how thick that makes you?

Eirikur
9th June 2016, 09:23
So listening to Farage and co it seems that they aren't against immigration, just EU immigration.

In fact all brexiteers seem hell bent on reinstating commonwealth immigration, in particular from India.

Sure they mutter things about points-based systems, but we know how those types of controls can be fiddled with.

So is an 'out' vote really just a vote for fast-track visas and intra-company transfers a la 2003?

I wonder if you ask the average UKIP supporter. if you have to choose would you prefer an immigrant from Sweden or Pakistan, what would you choose?

DodgyAgent
9th June 2016, 09:26
Nobody mentioned net migration. All the talk is about immigration controls; importing the people we need. I don't disagree with that; it would of course be better that way. But what we have with the EU is different to what we have with say India. We have a right of two way migration, and as much as it would be better if it was a little less in one direction more than the other, overall I think that's a good thing in the same way that free trade is a good thing. I'd like to see the same with more countries; Australia and New Zealand for example, but only if it's a reciprocal agreement. I wouldn't mind at all the opportunity to go work in one of those places for a year or two to see what it's like, but as it is I'm probably too old to qualify (at 44). However I can get into another 31 countries at any age for any reason. Until that is you take it away because you're alright jack.

The rich and/or highly qualified can probably go wherever they like. This is more about ordinary people, and they have the most to gain from the EU and the most to lose from Brexit.

Virtue signalling :winker:
How the ***** would you know what "ordinary people" want?. It is no coincidence that the privileged elite of politics, quangos and government want us to remain presumably because they know what is best for "ordinary people". have you tried asking the average working class Brit what he/she wants? i think you will find that despite the cheap holidays they want out.

LondonManc
9th June 2016, 09:31
Immigration is a bit of a big beast to look at on its own.

Neither Brexit nor Remain have said how they're going to tackle illegal immigration, which is more of an issue.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 09:32
I wonder if you ask the average UKIP supporter. if you have to choose would you prefer an immigrant from Sweden or Pakistan, what would you choose?

Here we go, calling the race card.

:winker:

DodgyAgent
9th June 2016, 09:35
Here we go, calling the race card.

:winker:

It depends on the Norks :tongue

Eirikur
9th June 2016, 09:38
Here we go, calling the race card.

:winker:

Yes UKIPers

darmstadt
9th June 2016, 09:53
It depends on the Norks :tongue

What have the North Koreans got to do with it, apart from the fact that they don't have immigration, or emigration :laugh

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 09:55
As always emmigration gets left out of the debate. You only talk about who we let in here, not the opportunities for British people that will now be limited.

That's because the deranged right can't think beyond their morning apéritif.

DodgyAgent
9th June 2016, 09:55
What have the North Koreans got to do with it, apart from the fact that they don't have immigration, or emigration :laugh

The innocence of "youth" :happy

Mordac
9th June 2016, 09:55
A bit like a prossie to a punter.

FTFY

Mordac
9th June 2016, 10:00
What have the North Koreans got to do with it, apart from the fact that they don't have immigration, or emigration :laugh

They don't have immigration, because nobody is stupid enough to want to go and live there.
They don't have emigration, because they shoot everyone who wants to leave.

Nailed it in one.

Mordac
9th June 2016, 10:07
If you can't get out then the UK is in effect one big internment camp. I don't want to live in one.

You really are a chumpty, aren't you. To be fair, it won't be so much fun for the rest of us living in the same country as you either.

darmstadt
9th June 2016, 10:14
Bloody immigrants: Sweatpant-wearing family denied Swiss passports - The Local (http://www.thelocal.ch/20160609/immigrant-family-denied-swiss-citizenship-over-choice-of-clothes) :laugh

original PM
9th June 2016, 10:58
Bloody immigrants: Sweatpant-wearing family denied Swiss passports - The Local (http://www.thelocal.ch/20160609/immigrant-family-denied-swiss-citizenship-over-choice-of-clothes) :laugh

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

LondonManc
9th June 2016, 11:20
If you can't get out then the UK is in effect one big internment camp. I don't want to live in one.

Pass the tinfoil, someone needs a new hat.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 12:25
Looks like the immigrants in Germany are grumpy this morning.

Refugee camp in Dusseldorf is burned down by migrants 'who were furious they had not received a wake-up for Ramadan breakfast' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3632965/Refugee-camp-Dusseldorf-burned-migrants-furious-not-received-wake-Ramadan-breakfast.html)

:laugh

LondonManc
9th June 2016, 12:30
Who did they expect to wake them up?

Compatible with the west my arse.

shaunbhoy
9th June 2016, 12:37
The rich and/or highly qualified can probably go wherever they like. This is more about ordinary people, and they have the most to gain from the EU and the most to lose from Brexit.

Nonsense. Norway are not in the EU yet plenty of Norwegians have still retired to Spain.

Norwegians living in Spain - Life in Norway (http://www.lifeinnorway.net/2014/08/norwegians-living-in-spain/)

The_Equalizer
9th June 2016, 12:44
Who did they expect to wake them up?

Compatible with the west my arse.

The problem that dare not speak its name.

OwlHoot
9th June 2016, 12:55
Looks like the immigrants in Germany are grumpy this morning.

Refugee camp in Dusseldorf is burned down by migrants 'who were furious they had not received a wake-up for Ramadan breakfast' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3632965/Refugee-camp-Dusseldorf-burned-migrants-furious-not-received-wake-Ramadan-breakfast.html)

:laugh

Hang on, they're not supposed to eat breakfast anyway during Ramadan are they?

Don't they have to wait until after sun set? :confused:

ClothCap
9th June 2016, 12:57
So to summarise,

Bremain = Eastern European invasion
Brexit = Bobs R Us

Is there a third alternative? 🤔

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 13:01
Looks like the immigrants in Germany are grumpy this morning.

Refugee camp in Dusseldorf is burned down by migrants 'who were furious they had not received a wake-up for Ramadan breakfast' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3632965/Refugee-camp-Dusseldorf-burned-migrants-furious-not-received-wake-Ramadan-breakfast.html)

:laugh


Those north African's... I'd send them back pronto.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 13:02
So to summarise,

Bremain = Eastern European invasion
Brexit = Bobs R Us

Is there a third alternative? 🤔

:suicide:

Forgotmylogin
9th June 2016, 13:05
Hang on, they're not supposed to eat breakfast anyway during Ramadan are they?

Don't they have to wait until after sun set? :confused:

It's a bit like feeding mogwai. The stipulation is "after" a certain time - but how long until "after" becomes "before"?

In the case of Ramadan fasting, Muslims are allowed to eat before dawn... which is probably why they wanted waking for an early breakfast, considering how early dawn is.

PurpleGorilla
9th June 2016, 13:06
Hang on, they're not supposed to eat breakfast anyway during Ramadan are they?

Don't they have to wait until after sun set? :confused:

They can drink Vimto. Very popular with Muslims!

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/06/heres-why-vimto-sales-rocket-during-ramadan-5925809/

unemployed
9th June 2016, 13:09
Looks like the immigrants in Germany are grumpy this morning.

Refugee camp in Dusseldorf is burned down by migrants 'who were furious they had not received a wake-up for Ramadan breakfast' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3632965/Refugee-camp-Dusseldorf-burned-migrants-furious-not-received-wake-Ramadan-breakfast.html)

:laugh

could have been worse

Syria conflict: Air strike on refugee camp 'could be war crime' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36218997)

Eirikur
9th June 2016, 13:10
So to summarise,

Bremain = Eastern European invasion
Brexit = Bobs R Us

Is there a third alternative? 🤔

Become the 51st state of the USA?

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 13:21
Become the 51st state of the USA?

ONLY if Trump wins.

:yay:

Eirikur
9th June 2016, 13:47
ONLY if Trump wins.

:yay:

Or if Farage wins the next general elections we could become the next state in the Russian federation as he will happily let his great and much admired friend Putin occupy the UK ( just continuing on from the the Russian occupation that already started in London)

shaunbhoy
9th June 2016, 13:59
Or if Farage wins the next general elections we could become the next state in the Russian federation as he will happily let his great and much admired friend Putin occupy the UK ( just continuing on from the the Russian occupation that already started in London)

Then again, if we Brexit then the whole raison d'etre for UKIP disappears overnight and everyone can return to voting for the "proper" parties again.

:wink

vetran
9th June 2016, 14:18
Hang on, they're not supposed to eat breakfast anyway during Ramadan are they?

Don't they have to wait until after sun set? :confused:

Breakfast before sunrise, dinner after sunset, lunch is cancelled.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 16:01
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckcv_z2WUAAypEr.jpg

All you need to know....

Mordac
9th June 2016, 16:11
could have been worse

Syria conflict: Air strike on refugee camp 'could be war crime' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36218997)

I thought they weren't allowed to eat breakfast during Ramadan. Or maybe the bacon wasn't halally enough, who frankly gives a tulip.

vetran
9th June 2016, 16:16
I thought they weren't allowed to eat breakfast during Ramadan. Or maybe the bacon wasn't halally enough, who frankly gives a tulip.

Suhor=Breakfast

Iftar=Dinner/Supper

both consumed in the dark.

Bacon is made from Beef or Turkey. Beef bacon is very nice.

The Food of Ramadan: When and What to Eat — The Ramadan Table | The Kitchn (http://www.thekitchn.com/the-food-of-ramadan-when-and-what-to-eat-94989)

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 16:23
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckcv_z2WUAAypEr.jpg

All you need to know....

Great. So keeping migration the same as now has no effect on wages.

m0n1k3r
10th June 2016, 10:57
It's this. At the moment Europeans of all races and creeds (though mostly white I suspect) can enter, stay, claim benefits, with no checks on "usefulness" or economic benefit to the UK.

That is just how the UK has implemented it. The EU allow for countries to remove people who have not found a job or become self-sustaining within six months, and to decline to provide benefits during that time. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands and many other countries do this. The UK don't but could quite easily improve immigration control without leaving the EU or even asking the EU for permission.

This was one of the things that Cameron 'negotiated' with the EU about and immediately got it 'approved'. Apparently he didn't know that we had these rights all along.

DimPrawn
11th June 2016, 17:14
Census 2011 shows large population changes in local areas | OCSI (http://ocsi.uk/2012/07/16/census-2011-shows-large-population-changes-in-local-areas/)


There are an extra 4,000,000 people living in England and Wales in 2011, compared with 2001.

Where they all living then? Any taken jobs at low pay? Do any of them use our health service? Any of them on the roads? Taking places in our schools?


Not according to remain, they don't exist and have no impact on our lives...

TestMangler
11th June 2016, 17:31
Census 2011 shows large population changes in local areas | OCSI (http://ocsi.uk/2012/07/16/census-2011-shows-large-population-changes-in-local-areas/)



Where they all living then? Any taken jobs at low pay? Do any of them use our health service? Any of them on the roads? Taking places in our schools?


Not according to remain, they don't exist and have no impact on our lives...

According to the 'factual' and 'impartial' information I've seen, they are all nurses and doctors and our lives would be shite if they weren't here.

jamesbrown
12th June 2016, 00:42
Most unfortunate headline for Hamface.

Leaked UK plan to open doors for 1m Turks | | The Times & The Sunday Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/leaked-uk-plan-to-open-doors-for-1m-turks-n085h225w)