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scooterscot
9th June 2016, 13:09
This really spells it out the errors of brexit. Norway has money, we have debt. Lots of it. We could never afford to pay the trade tariffs, yet the exit camp argues we could be like Norway. :alien




We pay, but have no say: that’s the reality of Norway’s relationship with the EU | Espen Barth Eide | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model?CMP=share_btn_tw)



We pay, but have no say: that’s the reality of Norway’s relationship with the EU | Espen Barth Eide

Norwegian town of Ålesund
As a former foreign minister of Norway, I am following Britain’s debate about its future relationship with the European Union with great interest. I have been struck by how a group of politicians hold my own country, Norway, aloft as a model to which to aspire. However, the way the Norwegian relationship with the EU is portrayed does not necessarily correspond to reality as I have experienced it.

Norway’s current arrangement is the outcome of two popular referendums, the first in 1972 and the second in 1994, which both ended in marginal victories for the no side.

It also has its roots in the process that began as the cold war was coming to an end in the late 1980s, when the then members of the European Free Trade Area (Efta) – Finland, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Iceland and Norway –entered into negotiations with what was then the European Community to form the European Economic Area (EEA), extending the single market to Efta.

The process succeeded and the EEA was declared in 1992. While still negotiating, however, several Efta states chose to seek full membership of the European Union itself. Austria, Finland and Sweden all joined the EU in 1995, while Norway voted to stay out. Switzerland chose not to join the EEA, whereas Liechtenstein joined a few years later.

Since then, the EEA has become Norway’s national compromise on Europe.

As an EEA member, we do not participate in decision-making in Brussels, but we loyally abide by Brussels’ decisions. We have incorporated approximately three-quarters of all EU legislative acts into Norwegian legislation – and counting. We have legally secured access to the single market, and we practise the free movement of people, goods, services and capital. Norway is more closely integrated into many aspects of the EU than even some of the EU’s members. Our subscription to freedom of movement and our membership of the Schengen area means that Norway has even higher per capita immigration than Britain.

Those campaigning for Britain to leave the EU and chose the Norwegian way can hence correctly claim that a country can retain access to the single market from outside the EU. What is normally not said, however, is that this also means retaining all the EU’s product standards, financial regulations, employment regulations, and substantial contributions to the EU budget. A Britain choosing this track would, in other words, keep paying, it would be “run by Brussels”, and it would remain committed to the four freedoms, including free movement.

Without full European Union membership, however, it would have given up on having a say over EU policies: like Norway, it would have no vote and no presence when crucial decisions that affect the daily lives of its citizens are made.

British voters might also hear about the virtues of the “Swiss model”. It so happens that I currently live in Switzerland. My new alpine homeland is in most respects in a similar position to Norway, but instead of the EEA, it has chosen an array of bilateral agreements with the EU on most aspects of integration.

Compared to the EEA arrangement it can be seen as an even more cumbersome way of integrating into a EU-led market. Where the EEA is dynamic – which means it trails the developments of EU policy in all relevant areas – the Swiss arrangements are static. Crucially, too, they don’t cover services, which are so central to Britain’s economy.

The reality is that every single western European country has chosen to take part in the European integration process in some shape or form. Not a single one has felt comfortable with just a classical free trade agreement. Modern economies are about so much more than trade in goods. Rather than a question of yes or no to Europe, it has become a matter of degree. Norway and Switzerland, heavily integrated as we both are in the EU, have simply chosen between the two currently existing options for staying in the outer circle.

The choice between staying in or leaving the European Union is of course for the British people to decide. But such an important debate should be based on realities. And in European politics, as in the UK, it is still true that you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

For us, a small, wealthy country on Europe’s periphery, to opt for the EEA solution has been a functioning national compromise after twice failing to secure support for full membership. For the UK, a major country and a long-standing, influential member of the EU, voluntarily to choose to move out of the core and into the outer circle, in order to join those influenced by but not influencing Brussels, would in my view be an entirely different matter.

original PM
9th June 2016, 13:13
you really seem to be struggling with this don't you.

If we vote out we will not be paying anything to anyone.

It's that simple

unemployed
9th June 2016, 13:13
we have debt. Lots of it.

debt is money in our great house price ponzi scheme :smokin

house price goes up the plebs spend

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 13:16
you really seem to be struggling with this don't you.

If we vote out we will not be paying anything to anyone.

It's that simple


And the sun will always shine. And it's happily ever after.

I really do get it. I think a brexit would be a laugh. The economy would tank in months and there'd be some cash bargains to be had.

DimPrawn
9th June 2016, 13:19
Houses, £10 each.

:rolleyes:

NigelJK
9th June 2016, 13:21
Oddly it's the remain camp who keep pointing out what other Nations do, Exiters have always said we will do our own thing.

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 13:24
Houses, €10 each.

FTFY. It'll still be £300K in our money, it's just that £300K will be worth €10.

SueEllen
9th June 2016, 13:31
Oddly it's the remain camp who keep pointing out what other Nations do, Exiters have always said we will do our own thing.

We only have a couple of models - the EEC countries like Norway or Switzerland.

Anyway the result will be rigged to get what the majority of MPs want.

Forgotmylogin
9th June 2016, 13:32
We only have a couple of models - the EEC countries like Norway or Switzerland.

Oh. So the only option is to do what other countries have done?

Who did Norway and Switzerland model their deals on?

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 13:34
Oh. So the only option is to do what other countries have done?

Who did Norway and Switzerland model their deals on?

You can't ask those awkward questions. Neurones will explode amongst the un-highned.

PurpleGorilla
9th June 2016, 13:35
We only have a couple of models - the EEC countries like Norway or Switzerland.

Anyway the result will be rigged to get what the majority of MPs want.

We have Greenland.

The only country to have left the EU.

Have a read of what their Prime Minister has to say about it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21090048

The_Equalizer
9th June 2016, 13:36
You can't ask those awkward questions. Neurones will explode amongst the un-highned.

But an Indy Scotland was a perfectly sensible move. Flip, flop, flip, flop...

SueEllen
9th June 2016, 13:38
Greenland and to some extend Iceland depend a lot on fish. We don't. Therefore they both had a very good reason to stay outside the EU.

The_Equalizer
9th June 2016, 13:45
Greenland and to some extend Iceland depend a lot on fish. We don't. Therefore they both had a very good reason to stay outside the EU.

Because the EU would carve-up their fishing industry, oh hang on.

Eirikur
9th June 2016, 13:50
you really seem to be struggling with this don't you.

If we vote out we will not be paying anything to anyone.

It's that simple

except for all the unemployment benefits that have to be paid out to all these people being made redundant because their oversees company's European HQ's have moved to mainland Europe

Eirikur
9th June 2016, 13:51
We have Greenland.

The only country to have left the EU.

Have a read of what their Prime Minister has to say about it...

Greenland's PM talks of 'positive' results from EU exit - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21090048)

Greenland receives shed load of money through their mother country Denmark (which also pays to the EU)

Algeria also left the EEC btw

stek
9th June 2016, 13:53
Oh. So the only option is to do what other countries have done?

Who did Norway and Switzerland model their deals on?

Norway - rich

Switzerland - very rich

UK - massively in debt

That's it.

VectraMan
9th June 2016, 13:55
We have Greenland.

The only country to have left the EU.

Have a read of what their Prime Minister has to say about it...

Greenland's PM talks of 'positive' results from EU exit - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21090048)


Prime Minister Kuupik Kleist says life is good outside the EU. He has free access to the European markets for his exports of fish, he says. But what about other exported goods?
He pauses, then laughs. "We don't export anything else but the fish."

Great future for the UK you're planning.

SueEllen
9th June 2016, 13:59
Because the EU would carve-up their fishing industry, oh hang on.

The main industry in the UK wasn't fishing unlike in Greenland and Iceland.

BTW everything in those countries plus Norway and Switzerland is damn expensive.

shaunbhoy
9th June 2016, 14:00
BTW everything in those countries plus Norway and Switzerland is damn expensive.

Yet still they don't want to join the EU.

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 14:01
But an Indy Scotland was a perfectly sensible move. Flip, flop, flip, flop...

Indeed. It has a white paper and everything. Where is the UK white paper telling us how it'll be?

The_Equalizer
9th June 2016, 14:06
Indeed. It has a white paper and everything. Where is the UK white paper telling us how it'll be?

I believe one is being published, although it won't base it's economic forecast on the price of oil. :tongue

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 14:07
I believe one is being published, although it won't base it's economic forecast on the price of oil. :tongue

Fair point. We should have used ambulance chancing call centres for our economic forecast.

vetran
9th June 2016, 14:15
Fair point. We should have used ambulance chancing call centres for our economic forecast.

nope they are all in India staffed by people called Barry & Kevin who sound like they should star in GGM.

Mordac
9th June 2016, 15:50
This really spells it out the errors of brexit. Norway has money, we have debt. Lots of it. We could never afford to pay the trade tariffs, yet the exit camp argues we could be like Norway. :alien




We pay, but have no say: that’s the reality of Norway’s relationship with the EU | Espen Barth Eide | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model?CMP=share_btn_tw)

If only the Norwegians had bought more German cars...Oh, and French cheese...

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 15:53
I think they buy volvos

Mordac
9th June 2016, 16:00
I think they buy volvos

Mahoosive mistakey right there. No wonder the Gerries keep sending the bill every month...

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 16:22
Mahoosive mistakey right there. No wonder the Gerries keep sending the bill every month...

Oh yeah? Lived in Bergen over a almost two years, plenty of time to see what the locals drive. Where abouts in Norway did you live? Perhaps it's region specific?

Mordac
9th June 2016, 16:45
Oh yeah? Lived in Bergen over a almost two years, plenty of time to see what the locals drive. Where abouts in Norway did you live? Perhaps it's region specific?

Wasn't suggesting you made a mistake, merely that the Norwegians might have done so. FWIW, 2 nights in Stavanger taught me everything I need to know about Norway, mostly revolving around not being the muppet who has to pay the bar tab. Six people, 2 nights, a grand, near as makes no odds. Pining for the fjords, not bleeding likely...:eek

scooterscot
9th June 2016, 16:46
Wasn't suggesting you made a mistake, merely that the Norwegians might have done so. FWIW, 2 nights in Stavanger taught me everything I need to know about Norway, mostly revolving around not being the muppet who has to pay the bar tab. Six people, 2 nights, a grand, near as makes no odds. Pining for the fjords, not bleeding likely...:eek

:rollin:

Yup, if you're going to drink buy it from the government stores and do it at home.

Mordac
9th June 2016, 20:00
:rollin:

Yup, if you're going to drink buy it from the government stores and do it at home.

They didn't say that in the brochures...

NotAllThere
10th June 2016, 04:53
...BTW everything in those countries plus Norway and Switzerland is damn expensive.
At least for Switzerland, the average salaries are considerably higher and tax is lower, so we don't notice it's expensive. The UK is so cheap!

Yet still they don't want to join the EU.The last vote was very close - within 1 or 2%. It was after that the Swiss Federal government started bilateral treaties.

If the UK tried the Swiss model, then that'd mean implementing Schengen!

darmstadt
10th June 2016, 05:42
Oddly it's the remain camp who keep pointing out what other Nations do, Exiters have always said we have no ******* idea what is going to happen.

FTFY :smile

NigelJK
10th June 2016, 08:05
FTFY

Kinda my point, neither side can say hand on heart what going to happen either way. My guess is that once the franco-braverian syndicate gets the cart blanch we'll all be walking funny for the next 50-100 years.