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SimonMac
16th June 2016, 16:23
The last thread appears to have been deleted, can we keep the dickheads out of this one please?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-leeds-36543180

mudskipper
16th June 2016, 16:26
Very sad news.

barrydidit
16th June 2016, 16:31
Very sad news.

WMSS

AtW
16th June 2016, 16:32
Wasn't she the one that had some vile threats?

:frown

PurpleGorilla
16th June 2016, 16:33
RIP Joe Cox

eek
16th June 2016, 16:34
Wasn't she the one that had some vile threats?

:frown

Yep. Some people took exception to her nominating Jeremy Corbyn but actually voting for Liz Kendall.

mudskipper
16th June 2016, 16:53
Wasn't she the one that had some vile threats?

:frown

Sadly these days that generally equates to being in the public eye, and seems to be more common if you're a woman.

Most don't end up dead though.

SueEllen
16th June 2016, 16:54
Yep. Some people took exception to her nominating Jeremy Corbyn but actually voting for Liz Kendall.

Jeremy Corbyn got nominated by lots of MPs who didn't vote for him. Some explained they did this so that all sides of the Labour party had someone standing.

Doesn't mean you go around threatening them.

NickFitz
16th June 2016, 17:18
It's being reported that the alleged perpetrator shouted "Britain First" so I think it's unlikely he acted out of sympathy for Jeremy Corbyn :eyes

eek
16th June 2016, 17:22
It's being reported that the alleged perpetrator shouted "Britain First" so I think it's unlikely he acted out of sympathy for Jeremy Corbyn :eyes

We've already had one thread deleted today about this due to idiotic racist postings...

While there are reports that things were said, there are also reports that nothing was said so let's not go there....

NotAllThere
16th June 2016, 17:25
...so let's not go there....Exactly.

jamesbrown
16th June 2016, 17:27
Exactly.

Thank you. At this point, let's just keep her family in our thoughts and not speculate on motivations or implications because we know almost nothing at this stage.

VectraMan
16th June 2016, 17:30
Nutters never help the cause they favour.

Never heard of her but reading the obituary she seemed like a more honest politician than most.

Do MPs get security? I guess they might after this.

NotAllThere
16th June 2016, 17:34
...
Do MPs get security? I guess they might after this.Unless there's a credible threat, or they're high profile, they don't get much. This from about 6 months ago British MPs to receive 'enhanced' security measures for homes and offices amid rising terror fears | UK Politics | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-mps-to-receive-enhanced-security-measures-for-homes-and-constituency-offices-amid-heightened-a6828296.html)

GJABS
16th June 2016, 17:36
Wasn't she the one that had some vile threats?

:frown

That was a different female MP a couple of weeks ago
Labour's Jess Phillips receives 600 rape threats after launching anti-bullying campaign | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3617766/Labour-MP-Jess-Phillips-receives-600-rape-threats-just-days-launching-campaign-end-online-sexist-bullying.html)

dx4100
16th June 2016, 17:37
Well she is either the most unluckiest person in the world to have been killed randomly by someone who just turned up with a gun and a knife or she was targeted for her beliefs... Isn't a huge step to take in the land of presumption of the possible reasons why this has happened...

Either way its disgusting... Two kids have lost their mum today for doing nothing more than her job... :mad:

stek
16th June 2016, 17:50
Been to Batley a lot, mrs worked there and still goes to gym there, very Pakistani but always seems quiet and trouble free apart from the pissed up yobs at Frontierland nightclub come chucking out time (and getting in time come to think of it).

Awful....

PurpleGorilla
16th June 2016, 17:53
The BBC said the attacker went on to hurt someone else, someone in their 70's...

eek
16th June 2016, 17:53
Well she is either the most unluckiest person in the world to have been killed randomly by someone who just turned up with a gun and a knife or she was targeted for her beliefs... Isn't a huge step to take in the land of presumption of the possible reasons why this has happened...

Either way its disgusting... Two kids have lost their mum today for doing nothing more than her job... :mad:

Not quite. It only takes a local to take a dislike to their MP especially a local who is mentally unwell... Heck I see enough people having a go at my MP and she doesn't deserve any of the comments she gets...

dx4100
16th June 2016, 18:03
Not quite. It only takes a local to take a dislike to their MP especially a local who is mentally unwell... Heck I see enough people having a go at my MP and she doesn't deserve any of the comments she gets...

Isn't that what I said though ? Its attacking someone for their beliefs ?

LondonManc
16th June 2016, 18:18
Sad news. Local girl made good story. Feel sorry for the kids and husband.

barrydidit
16th June 2016, 18:38
Been to Batley a lot, mrs worked there and still goes to gym there, very Pakistani but always seems quiet and trouble free apart from the pissed up yobs at Frontierland nightclub come chucking out time (and getting in time come to think of it).

Awful....

Yeah, but that was Birstal. Different place. Still in the cleckhuddersfax environs but batley isn't birstal.

stek
16th June 2016, 18:44
Yeah, but that was Birstal. Different place. Still in the cleckhuddersfax environs but batley isn't birstal.

True, but on our way to Batley, and Liversedge t'other way, feels Batley-ish and Birstall is in the Batley constituency.....

We come down the hill from Toys 'Ya' Us to the junction near Crilly's, Birstall centre on the right and left turn and you're in Batley past the Subway and the Merc garage with the big Star..

Having said that I'm a Lancastrian.....

SimonMac
16th June 2016, 19:34
Yeah, but that was Birstal. Different place. Still in the cleckhuddersfax environs but batley isn't birstal.


True, but on our way to Batley, and Liversedge t'other way, feels Batley-ish and Birstall is in the Batley constituency.....

We come down the hill from Toys 'Ya' Us to the junction near Crilly's, Birstall centre on the right and left turn and you're in Batley past the Subway and the Merc garage with the big Star..

Having said that I'm a Lancastrian.....

I don't think geography is the important part of the story here to be fair

minestrone
16th June 2016, 19:35
Very sad, with a young family as well.

A local man was up in court the other day for chasing a canvasing Labour Councillor down the street with a running chainsaw, shouting if he caught him he was going to cut his head off. Didn't even get prison. A running feckin chainsaw.

portseven
16th June 2016, 19:50
I have no words... My heart aches for the kids

TestMangler
16th June 2016, 20:05
Very sad, with a young family as well.

A local man was up in court the other day for chasing a canvasing Labour Councillor down the street with a running chainsaw, shouting if he caught him he was going to cut his head off. Didn't even get prison. A running feckin chainsaw.

To be fair, the guy was canvassing for Jim Murphy. Mitigating circumstances, m'lud.

Goodnight
16th June 2016, 20:26
Very sad, with a young family as well.

A local man was up in court the other day for chasing a canvasing Labour Councillor down the street with a running chainsaw, shouting if he caught him he was going to cut his head off. Didn't even get prison. A running feckin chainsaw.

Flipping heck! Where was that?

stek
16th June 2016, 20:31
I don't think geography is the important part of the story here to be fair

Agree, sorry....

scooterscot
16th June 2016, 21:16
'Leaves two young children behind who'll now grow up without a mother'

Life can be just so cruel.

original PM
16th June 2016, 21:31
So easy to make glib comments.

But this is awful opm familys heart's go out to her husband and children.

vetran
16th June 2016, 22:28
Indeed I sympathise with the family. Is terrible losing your mother young.

NotAllThere
17th June 2016, 05:11
...
No-one should be murdered like this. We must make these issues debatable again and not silence opinion.Not yet.

MrMarkyMark
17th June 2016, 11:42
Looks like the murderer was a right piece of work all along....


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-gun-manuals-from-us-neo-nazis-group-claims

shaunbhoy
17th June 2016, 12:46
Looks like the murderer was a right piece of work all along....



Indeed, so it would seem. Whilst filling up at the garage an hour ago I spotted the front page of the Daily Star........"MP Dead after attack by BREXIT gunman".

Now I know it is a piece of toilet roll but even so, that goes way beyond sensationalist.

:frown

unixman
17th June 2016, 12:52
I think the Star gambled and made a huge mistake.

PurpleGorilla
17th June 2016, 13:14
Very moving.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2016/jun/17/european-newspaper-front-pages-on-jo-cox-death-in-pictures?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

dx4100
17th June 2016, 13:15
I think the Star gambled and made a huge mistake.

Why ? do you think he was going to vote in ?

Bee
17th June 2016, 13:19
This is so sad.
Two children will grow up without a mother and so young to die.

RIP

PurpleGorilla
17th June 2016, 13:21
The killer has had mental health issues for several years:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-16/british-labor-mp-jo-cox-shot-and-stabbed-assailant-who-allegedly-shouting-britain-fi

The_Equalizer
17th June 2016, 13:23
Why ? do you think he was going to vote in ?

This is becoming a bit silly. What makes you think he was even going to vote? I'm sure there are numerous convicted rapist and murders voting for both sides.

Bee
17th June 2016, 13:30
The killer has had mental health issues for several years:

Brexit Campaigns Suspended After British Lawmaker Shot Dead By Mentally Ill Assailant | Zero Hedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-16/british-labor-mp-jo-cox-shot-and-stabbed-assailant-who-allegedly-shouting-britain-fi)

The way he killed her shows it.
Only a psycho or some kind of mentality issues would kill the way he killed her.

He shot her and stabbed her several times, this shows some kind of an obsession/frustration and hungry, and at the same time pleasure.

vetran
17th June 2016, 13:41
This is becoming a bit silly. What makes you think he was even going to vote? I'm sure there are numerous convicted rapist and murders voting for both sides.

It's alright only Brexiters can do bad. Next we will see posters saying 'And Satan said unto me - vote Leave'

The chap was mentally ill, we failed him & her. Lets leave it at that.

shaunbhoy
17th June 2016, 13:46
The way he killed her shows it.
Only a psycho or some kind of mentality issues would kill the way he killed her.

He shot her and stabbed her several times, this shows some kind of an obsession/frustration and hungry, and at the same time pleasure.

The way he killed her shows what exactly? He clearly had quite a few bats in his belfry, as do a great many people. There is no proof that this act was in any way linked with Brexit, and it is dangerously irresponsible to try and make any valid connection.

SueEllen
17th June 2016, 14:02
The way he killed her shows what exactly? He clearly had quite a few bats in his belfry, as do a great many people. There is no proof that this act was in any way linked with Brexit, and it is dangerously irresponsible to try and make any valid connection.

Unfortunately all the foreign media and so foreigners will think it's linked to the referendum.

They aren't aware that MPs get threatened all the time.

scooterscot
17th June 2016, 14:02
The killer has had mental health issues for several years:

Brexit Campaigns Suspended After British Lawmaker Shot Dead By Mentally Ill Assailant | Zero Hedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-16/british-labor-mp-jo-cox-shot-and-stabbed-assailant-who-allegedly-shouting-britain-fi)

I'm not so sure. Otherwise half the country has mental health issues. But I understand why they might say that to comfort everyone else.

This was plain and simple hate.

PurpleGorilla
17th June 2016, 14:04
I'm not so sure. Otherwise half the country has mental health issues. But I understand why they might say that to comfort everyone else.

This was plain and simple hate.

READ THE ARTICLE!

Zero Hedge did a google search and found an article online (clearly 6-7 years old) saying the following;

"Thomas Mair, 46, started volunteering at the park after learning about the opportunity through the Mirfield-based Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental health problems. He said: "I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world. "Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common mainly caused by long-term unemployment."

"All these problems are alleviated by doing voluntary work. Getting out of the house and meeting new people is a good thing, but more important in my view is doing physically demanding and useful labour.

"When you have finished there is a feeling of achievement which is emotionally rewarding and psychologically fulfilling.

"For people for whom full-time, paid employment is not possible for a variety of reasons, voluntary work offers a socially positive and therapeutic alternative."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Oakwell+Hall+thriving+with+help+of+volunteers.-a0227735906

scooterscot
17th June 2016, 14:07
READ THE ARTICLE!

Zero Hedge did a google search and found an article online (clearly 6-7 years old) saying the following;

"Thomas Mair, 46, started volunteering at the park after learning about the opportunity through the Mirfield-based Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental health problems. He said: "I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world. "Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common mainly caused by long-term unemployment."


I did read it. He was 46 then, 52 now at the time of the attack.


"Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society"

You've got a whole room full of them right here!!

PurpleGorilla
17th June 2016, 14:09
I did read it. He was 46 then, 52 now at the time of the attack.


"Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society"

You've got a whole room full of them right here!!

So in his own words he has mental health issues.

shaunbhoy
17th June 2016, 14:10
Unfortunately all the foreign media and so foreigners will think it's linked to the referendum.

They aren't aware that MPs get threatened all the time.

What a sweeping statement. Undoubtedly some will, but if you genuinely believe that the majority of foreign media reporters don't bother to try and unearth the REAL truth behind a story before going to press then you are deluded.

scooterscot
17th June 2016, 14:16
What a sweeping statement. Undoubtedly some will, but if you genuinely believe that the majority of foreign media reporters don't bother to try and unearth the REAL truth behind a story before going to press then you are deluded.

Er cough,... yes I've always appreciated the ability of Fox news to brings us the facts.

Bee
17th June 2016, 14:21
The way he killed her shows what exactly? He clearly had quite a few bats in his belfry, as do a great many people. There is no proof that this act was in any way linked with Brexit, and it is dangerously irresponsible to try and make any valid connection.

I never wrote it's connected to the Brexit! Read again.

minestrone
17th June 2016, 15:50
I'm not so sure. Otherwise half the country has mental health issues. But I understand why they might say that to comfort everyone else.

This was plain and simple hate.

It is quite possible he has a severe mental health condition and this was some kind of psychotic episode. He undoubtedly has been diagnosed in the past and has been receiving treatment. There will be an indication in the next few days from where he ends up, sectioned or on remand.

But until all the information is know and released there is no point claiming to have an definitive answer.

vadhert
17th June 2016, 15:54
Sounds familiar

Research Briefings - The Swedish referendum on the Euro (http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP03-68)

shaunbhoy
17th June 2016, 16:03
Er cough,... yes I've always appreciated the ability of whatever constitutes the latest de rigeur rumour factory to brings us the facts.

ftfy

SueEllen
17th June 2016, 16:29
Sounds familiar

Research Briefings - The Swedish referendum on the Euro (http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP03-68)

Shit :frown

I wonder if the campaigns on both sides were as nasty as they are in the UK?

xoggoth
17th June 2016, 16:32
I wonder if the campaigns on both sides were as nasty as they are in the UK?

In the good old days we'd just have a war. Much simpler really, nobody has to pretend they are appealing to reason or using it.

Mordac
17th June 2016, 16:33
It is quite possible he has a severe mental health condition and this was some kind of psychotic episode. He undoubtedly has been diagnosed in the past and has been receiving treatment. There will be an indication in the next few days from where he ends up, sectioned or on remand.

But until all the information is know and released there is no point claiming to have an definitive answer.

Apparently the nutjob was shouting something about "Britain First". For all we know he may have been protesting about the Eurovision Song Contest. Either way, it's a terrible tragedy, not least for her family and friends, but also for democracy. How long will it be before we need CRB checks to visit our MP?

SueEllen
17th June 2016, 16:41
Apparently the nutjob was shouting something about "Britain First". For all we know he may have been protesting about the Eurovision Song Contest. Either way, it's a terrible tragedy, not least for her family and friends, but also for democracy. How long will it be before we need CRB checks to visit our MP?

That won't help as a DBS check just shows you haven't committed a crime in the past.

xoggoth
17th June 2016, 16:45
That won't help as a DBS check just shows you haven't been caught for committing a crime in the past

...yet

FTFY

d000hg
17th June 2016, 18:01
When was the last time an MP was murdered?

scooterscot
17th June 2016, 18:10
When was the last time an MP was murdered?

List of serving British MPs who were assassinated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated)


Date Victim
11 May 1812 Spencer Perceval[1]
6 May 1882 Lord Frederick Cavendish[2]
22 June 1922 Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson, Bt[3]
30 March 1979 Airey Neave[4]
14 November 1981 Rev. Robert Bradford[5]
12 October 1984 Sir Anthony Berry[6]
30 July 1990 Ian Gow[7]
16 June 2016 Jo Cox[8]

SueEllen
17th June 2016, 18:23
When was the last time an MP was murdered?

To add to the figures:

The last time an MP was seriously injured was in 2010. The nutter who attacked him claimed it was due to how he voted on the Iraq war. linky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11667620)

The last time someone physically tried to assault an MP before this was this month linky (http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/said-going-kill-man-arrested-threatening-croydon/story-29382372-detail/story.html) The MP is an annoying self publicised but still....

Hopefully now the police and CPS will take threats to MPs and other politicians seriously, and actually not just give the perpetrators all fines or suspended sentences then treat the politician as paranoid regardless of whether they are Nigel Farage, some random back bencher or some unknown councillor.

scooterscot
17th June 2016, 19:20
All n all it's a worrying development of the UK in general, the ones that export democracy.

minestrone
17th June 2016, 19:26
Apparently the nutjob was shouting something about "Britain First". For all we know he may have been protesting about the Eurovision Song Contest. Either way, it's a terrible tragedy, not least for her family and friends, but also for democracy. How long will it be before we need CRB checks to visit our MP?

I don't know if you have ever spent any time with anyone who has a chronic mental condition, they think there are extra voices on the TV that are just for them, traffic lights give them messages in Morse code, it is entirely possible he is in that area.

Hinckley shot Ronald Reagan after becoming infatuated with Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver, Chapman shot John Lennon after reading Catch 22. If people are extrapolating this event out for political mileage before knowing the state of mind of the person then they are standing on dodgy ground.

Tonybee in the guardian today is the very lowest level of journalism I have seen for decades, same goes for Massie's ( published, pulled, published, pulled, edited, published ) article in the Spectator.

It fills me with some level of satisfaction knowing the Guardian will be gone in a few years, burning through that 700 million they got for selling autotrader at 100 million a year.

unemployed
17th June 2016, 19:30
All n all it's a worrying development of the UK in general, the ones that export democracy.

Is any of it really surprising though.
Basic needs are considered a luxury in this country and can only be obtained with a premiership footballers salary.

Expect more to come a lot more.

Maybe those parasites will wake up and smell the coffee then.

stek
17th June 2016, 19:40
I don't know if you have ever spent any time with anyone who has a chronic mental condition, they think there are extra voices on the TV that are just for them, traffic lights give them messages in Morse code, it is entirely possible he is in that area.

Hinckley shot Ronald Reagan after becoming infatuated with Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver, Chapman shot John Lennon after reading Catch 22. If people are extrapolating this event out for political mileage before knowing the state of mind of the person then they are standing on dodgy ground.

Tonybee in the guardian today is the very lowest level of journalism I have seen for decades, same goes for Massie's ( published, pulled, published, pulled, edited, published ) article in the Spectator.

It fills me with some level of satisfaction knowing the Guardian will be gone in a few years, burning through that 700 million they got for selling autotrader at 100 million a year.

I've watched 10 Rillington Place and not felt the urge to murder unfortunates....

TBF though if anyone is willing to deprive a human being of life, they have to mentally deranged/ill, I remain convinced of that. I realise I have totally contradicted myself but it does go to show it's not simply a switch on/switch off situation...

minestrone
17th June 2016, 19:46
All n all it's a worrying development of the UK in general, the ones that export democracy.

Your level of hypocrisy is quite something.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/101242-brendan-oneill-2.html#post1986938

xoggoth
17th June 2016, 20:12
Tonybee in the guardian today is the very lowest level of journalism I have seen for decades

Generally I find her quite sensible but that is rather unbalanced. There is no doubt the real far right is rising in Europe but the reason for that is that, for far too long, real concerns have been ignored. Effect is being confused as cause.

It is a pity human society can never be balanced and based on facts and the realities of history and human nature rather than idiotic ideals and morality, we just swing from one extreme to the other. Much of today's anti-racism is just an inverted racism, a ridiculous belief that, despite the low performance and well documented problems of poor nations, they are somehow all wonderful, hard working, law-abiding people the moment they cross our borders. Any problems are down to racism and exclusion by the horrid white man.

minestrone
17th June 2016, 20:20
Generally I find her quite sensible

From 2010...


At last the Tories have a final solution for the poor – send them to distant dumping grounds where there are no jobs

She is beneath contempt, the language she uses is deliberate and constant.

Benefits cut, rents up: this is Britain's housing time bomb | Polly Toynbee | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/benefits-cut-rents-up-housing-time-bomb)

TestMangler
17th June 2016, 20:28
I don't know if you have ever spent any time with anyone who has a chronic mental condition, they think there are extra voices on the TV that are just for them, traffic lights give them messages in Morse code, it is entirely possible he is in that area.

Hinckley shot Ronald Reagan after becoming infatuated with Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver, Chapman shot John Lennon after reading Catch 22. If people are extrapolating this event out for political mileage before knowing the state of mind of the person then they are standing on dodgy ground.

Tonybee in the guardian today is the very lowest level of journalism I have seen for decades, same goes for Massie's ( published, pulled, published, pulled, edited, published ) article in the Spectator.

It fills me with some level of satisfaction knowing the Guardian will be gone in a few years, burning through that 700 million they got for selling autotrader at 100 million a year.

Was it not 'Catcher in the Rye' ? I remember seeing a documentary where several murders were blamed on the perpetrator reading that.

minestrone
17th June 2016, 20:31
The casual way a Guardian journalist in 2010 can claim the UK Government has a "final solution" for the poor highlights why the labour party has a serious anti Semitism problem now.

minestrone
17th June 2016, 20:32
Was it not 'Catcher in the Rye' ? I remember seeing a documentary where several murders were blamed on the perpetrator reading that.

I think you are right there.

xoggoth
17th June 2016, 20:44
I think some lefties like the late Bob Crow and Polly Toynbee have been sensible on immigration, they are real socialists who think that increasing prosperity should be shared among those of limited ability at the bottom of our society, they should not be pushed out and have their wages reduced by having to compete with migrants from poor countries. Couple of articles from Toynbee here:

Our borders are porous. Why can't our politicians admit the problems of immigration? | Polly Toynbee | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/feb/27/our-borders-are-porous)


Has immigration been good for Britain? That depends on who you are. Brown's Treasury boasted that migrants boosted GDP – without counting whether they boosted GDP per capita. Nor does rising GDP show who wins and who loses in so unequal a country. It's wonderful for employers and the affluent wanting cheap nannies, cleaners and plumbers – bad for the unemployed, many of whom would have been skilled-up for the jobs otherwise

If you want to curb immigration, pay workers a living wage | Polly Toynbee | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/02/curb-immigration-pay-workers-living-wage)


Labour's pitch on immigration is counter-intuitive: enforce decent pay and conditions and fewer migrants will come. Once British people with families could afford to take those jobs, employers would lose any incentive to recruit cheap workers abroad. Stop bad employers undercutting decent pay with imported near-slave labour. As a message it may not quite work politically as it doesn't satisfy the gut fears of the Ukip-inclined, but it has the advantage of taking real action against a real problem. Labour's new determination to enforce minimum pay inspections and spread gangmaster legislation to construction and hospitality is more than welcome: Tony Blair and Gordon Brown adamantly refused both, appeasing employers with lax regulation.
...
Employers are to blame for importing so many of the unskilled, instead of hiring at home.


PS THo' not quite convinced about the logic of that last idea.

xoggoth
17th June 2016, 20:50
Sensible on religion too. Religious education is a nonsense. Facts - science, maths, logic, psychology and history should be the subjects that matter.

The Muslim 'Trojan Horse' schools frenzy hides a need for integration | Polly Toynbee | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/23/muslim-trojan-horse-schools-frenzy-masks-integration)



That a third of state schools are faith schools is a historic disaster, a hangover from Christian charity school days, made worse by Tony Blair's encouragement and now by Michael Gove adding yet more. When the Church of England and the Catholics have so many schools, every other religion and sect is entitled too – Seventh-Day Adventists, Jewish and Hindu schools are expanding, and of course Muslims want more of their own. Why shouldn't they?
The presence of one-third faith schools often unbalances the local intake. Park View is not a faith school but has 98% Muslim pupils. In many areas that happens when local Christian schools become white-flight refuges, leaving nearby state schools to become mainly Muslim.
What is needed is socially and religiously integrated education. All children should be taught religious education, learning about all religions. But what serious programme of sex education or prevention of homophobic bullying can there be in schools where most teachers adhere to ancient texts that punish gays? It's hard to complain of some of the teachings in the Qur'an when Gove sends a Bible to every school, filled with the most extreme and bizarre prohibitions.

SueEllen
17th June 2016, 20:55
Generally I find her quite sensible but that is rather unbalanced. There is no doubt the real far right is rising in Europe but the reason for that is that, for far too long, real concerns have been ignored. Effect is being confused as cause.

It is a pity human society can never be balanced and based on facts and the realities of history and human nature rather than idiotic ideals and morality, we just swing from one extreme to the other. Much of today's anti-racism is just an inverted racism, a ridiculous belief that, despite the low performance and well documented problems of poor nations, they are somehow all wonderful, hard working, law-abiding people the moment they cross our borders. Any problems are down to racism and exclusion by the horrid white man.

Last time I checked the majority of Eastern Europeans where white.

And according to the legal definition of racism recognised by the various UK laws white people from different nations can be racist to each other. Hence English being racist to the Scots and vice versa is recognised as such.

People like you who go on about anti-racism should move to a rough part of another UK nation to realise why people say racism is unacceptable.

People like you think it's a f***ing joke until you or someone close to you has faced it and been threatened with violence due to it.

Oh and lumping the actions of groups of people as acting all the same mass is racist.

shaunbhoy
17th June 2016, 20:56
Toynbee is the worst sort of smarmy hand-wringing socialist. Failed her 11-plus and dropped out of Uni to flip burgers. The fact that she has reached her current position is testament to the fact that Political Correctness has almost reached the levels of lunacy that defined the Salem Witch trials.

:ladybags:

unemployed
17th June 2016, 21:09
Last time I checked the majority of Eastern Europeans where white.

And according to the legal definition of racism recognised by the various UK laws white people from different nations can be racist to each other. Hence English being racist to the Scots and vice versa is recognised as such.

People like you who go on about anti-racism should move to a rough part of another UK nation to realise why people say racism is unacceptable.

People like you think it's a f***ing joke until you or someone close to you has faced it and been threatened with violence due to it.

Oh and lumping the actions of groups of people as acting all the same mass is racist.

Racism does not exist in our modern multicultural society though does it ?
southall is a prime example of multicultural Britain working at it`s best . ;)

infact it`s so multicultural that the people who say it is , don`t have to live next to these multicultural people in the first place, so they never really need to worry about it.

scooterscot
17th June 2016, 21:39
Your level of hypocrisy is quite something.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/101242-brendan-oneill-2.html#post1986938

I don't see any hypocrisy here. But i appreciate your memory and drama.

MP's must be held to account by all means. It becomes worrying when people see fit to reason their way to such atrocities.

ClothCap
17th June 2016, 21:53
People like you...
People like you ...
Sounds a bit... I dunno, racist?

Flashman
17th June 2016, 21:56
List of serving British MPs who were assassinated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated)


Date Victim
11 May 1812 Spencer Perceval[1]
6 May 1882 Lord Frederick Cavendish[2]
22 June 1922 Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson, Bt[3]
30 March 1979 Airey Neave[4]
14 November 1981 Rev. Robert Bradford[5]
12 October 1984 Sir Anthony Berry[6]
30 July 1990 Ian Gow[7]
16 June 2016 Jo Cox[8]

The Hansard record of proceedings in the House of Commons after the MP Airey Neave was murdered.

MR. AIREY NEAVE (TRIBUTES) (Hansard, 2 April 1979) (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1979/apr/02/mr-airey-neave-tributes)

Took about 10 minutes and they moved on.

Looks we're in for the full Princess Di treatment on Monday .....

Flashman
17th June 2016, 22:03
From 2010...

She is beneath contempt, the language she uses is deliberate and constant.

Benefits cut, rents up: this is Britain's housing time bomb | Polly Toynbee | Opinion | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/benefits-cut-rents-up-housing-time-bomb)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClJZ5IJUoAAJSjZ.jpg

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 05:35
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClJZ5IJUoAAJSjZ.jpgI don't find that image anywhere on the Guardian site. Is it a made up meme? Like this one? http://40.media.tumblr.com/483c9ee44c6aad5869b6259f2c0c8155/tumblr_nnmj16v70T1uus9j6o1_500.jpg


Unfortunately all the foreign media and so foreigners will think it's linked to the referendum.It's possible. The pound rallied against the US Dollar about the time the news became public - you can see a sharp jump at about 15:45 on Thursday afternoon. Also, the FTSE jumped a hundred points up yesterday morning.

I think it's likely that the Remain camp will be strengthened by this murder (or seeing as it is now being treated as a politically motivated act of terrorism, perhaps that should be assassination?). However, if the Remainers exploit it too much, then that will produce a backlash that will strengthen the Brexit camp.

BrilloPad
18th June 2016, 06:52
The Hansard record of proceedings in the House of Commons after the MP Airey Neave was murdered.

MR. AIREY NEAVE (TRIBUTES) (Hansard, 2 April 1979) (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1979/apr/02/mr-airey-neave-tributes)

Took about 10 minutes and they moved on.

Looks we're in for the full Princess Di treatment on Monday .....

1997 was a game changer as far as public mourning goes.

Jo Cox MP shot: Thomas Mair charged with murder as police reveal far-Right wing links are 'priority line of inquiry' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-labour-mps-security-was-being-increased-after-thre/)

Mr Mair sought help for depression the night before Mrs Cox was killed - but was told to make an appointment and come back the next day.

Sounds to me like he was not clear about his intentions. Or is the NHS that underfunded?

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 06:57
I don't find that image anywhere on the Guardian site. Is it a made up meme? Like this one? http://40.media.tumblr.com/483c9ee44c6aad5869b6259f2c0c8155/tumblr_nnmj16v70T1uus9j6o1_500.jpg

It's possible. The pound rallied against the US Dollar about the time the news became public - you can see a sharp jump at about 15:45 on Thursday afternoon. Also, the FTSE jumped a hundred points up yesterday morning.

I think it's likely that the Remain camp will be strengthened by this murder (or seeing as it is now being treated as a politically motivated act of terrorism, perhaps that should be assassination?). However, if the Remainers exploit it too much, then that will produce a backlash that will strengthen the Brexit camp.

Gordon Brown making the link.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-legacy-end-downward-spiral-political-culture-tackling-prejudice-intolerance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Yes we are all scum for voting brexit.

cojak
18th June 2016, 07:09
This type type of posting is increasingly leaving me with a rather nasty impression of the posters.

Vilifying the other side rather than debating doesn't show you in a good light guys.

It's lazy and just poisons the democracy well.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 07:15
This type type of posting is increasingly leaving me with a rather nasty impression of the posters.

Vilifying the other side rather than debating doesn't show you in a good light guys.

It's lazy and just poisons the democracy well.

How would you like being called a racist xenophobe?

SueEllen
18th June 2016, 07:20
How would you like being called a racist xenophobe?

If you don't want to be called one then don't post like one.

cojak
18th June 2016, 07:25
How would you like being called a racist xenophobe?

How about explain the reason for your original post and show that you aren't a racist xenophobe?

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 07:28
How would you like being called a racist xenophobe?If people behave in a style that reminds some people of racist xenophobia, then it's almost inevitable they'll be called racist xenophobes. If you're being called that, here's a few suggestions as to what you can do about it.

1. Suck it up, because you know it's false - which is what I do when I'm called a Nazi, 'cos I know I'm not
2. Consider seriously whether your behaviour could be construed to be racist and or xenophobic, and modify your behaviour so that people won't make the mistake again
3. Admit that you are, and wear the badge with pride
4. Whine about it, and start hurling epithets of your own.

TBH, I don't think you're knowingly racist. You probably abhor racism and are quite a decent chap. I think it's just that you are not very clever.

I don't know what Flashman's intentions were, but on the face of it, it appears that he's accusing Remain supporters of capitalising on Cox's murder - with the astonishingly hypocritical device of putting words into the mouth of a known Remainer, that she didn't say. Effectively, Flashman is saying "Look - those lefties are capitalising on the murder. Aren't they awful - vote Brexit". Which is pretty vile by any standard.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 07:33
How about explain the reason for your original post and show that you aren't a racist xenophobe?

My original post (about Nigel's poster) said harsh, but fair. I then explained my reasoning in several posts, whilst NO explanation was given to call me racist.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 07:35
If people behave in a style that reminds some people of racist xenophobia, then it's almost inevitable they'll be called racist xenophobes. If you're being called that, here's a few suggestions as to what you can do about it.

1. Suck it up, because you know it's false - which is what I do when I'm called a Nazi, 'cos I know I'm not
2. Consider seriously whether your behaviour could be construed to be racist and or xenophobic, and modify your behaviour so that people won't make the mistake again
3. Admit that you are, and wear the badge with pride
4. Whine about it, and start hurling epithets of your own.

TBH, I don't think you're knowingly racist. You probably abhor racism and are quite a decent chap. I think it's just that you are not very clever.

I don't know what Flashman's intentions were, but on the face of it, it appears that he's accusing Remain supporters of capitalising on Cox's murder - with the astonishingly hypocritical device of putting words into the mouth of a known Remainer, that she didn't say. Effectively, Flashman is saying "Look - those lefties are capitalising on the murder. Aren't they awful - vote Brexit". Which is pretty vile by any standard.

All I have seen is bremainers saying that it is only they who are tolerant, and if you want to be tolerant you need to vote remain. Which is arse. But there you go. I'm not a racist for wanting to control migration or take back sovereignty!

The assassination of Joe Cox is horrific, tragic, but nothing to do with the referendum.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 07:53
This type type of posting is increasingly leaving me with a rather nasty impression of the posters.

Vilifying the other side rather than debating doesn't show you in a good light guys.

It's lazy and just poisons the democracy well.

Absolutely agree. As I've said before, some people are allowing themselves to become radicalised by a campaign. Having a robust debate is good, but questioning someone's fundamental character or motives for simply preferring one set of arguments over another reflects very badly on their own character, web forum or otherwise.

WTFH
18th June 2016, 08:37
Gordon Brown making the link.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-legacy-end-downward-spiral-political-culture-tackling-prejudice-intolerance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Yes we are all scum for voting brexit.

Having just read that article you linked to, I don't see Brown saying anything like that. In fact the first 75%+ of the article does not mention the EU or the referendum, the only comment I see him making that some might object to is this:
"But some have attempted to hijack a decision on the future of Britain in Europe and turn it into a vote on immigration, and then on immigrants and those who support immigrants"

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 08:40
Having just read that article you linked to, I don't see Brown saying anything like that. In fact the first 75%+ of the article does not mention the EU or the referendum, the only comment I see him making that some might object to is this:
"But some have attempted to hijack a decision on the future of Britain in Europe and turn it into a vote on immigration, and then on immigrants and those who support immigrants"

Yes, that's the passage. Maybe I interpreted it differently.

WTFH
18th June 2016, 09:13
Yes, that's the passage. Maybe I interpreted it differently.

I interpreted that as being:
The referendum is not just about immigration. It is about Britain's relationship with Europe. That relationship is made up of many things - trade, travel, employment, laws, security, taxes and borders.
To ignore all those and just focus on immigration is not what the referendum is about.
Many will vote "in" because of the other parts of the relationship. That does not mean they want the country overrun with immigrants.
Many will vote "out" because of the other parts of the relationship. That does not mean they want everyone who was not born here or does not have the "correct" skin colour/religion to be "sent home".
And I think Brown's point was just that - this referendum is about far more than just immigration, but some are choosing to focus purely on that and are being very divisive by doing so, and killing off what should be an intelligent debate about multiple issues by making it a one issue question.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 09:15
I interpreted that as being:
The referendum is not just about immigration. It is about Britain's relationship with Europe. That relationship is made up of many things - trade, travel, employment, laws, security, taxes and borders.
To ignore all those and just focus on immigration is not what the referendum is about.
Many will vote "in" because of the other parts of the relationship. That does not mean they want the country overrun with immigrants.
Many will vote "out" because of the other parts of the relationship. That does not mean they want everyone who was not born here or does not have the "correct" skin colour/religion to be "sent home".
And I think Brown's point was just that - this referendum is about far more than just immigration, but some are choosing to focus purely on that and are being very divisive by doing so.

Fair enough. When you put it that way, I am happy with that.

Incidentally the borders issue is considered the BREXIT ace card, the economy the BREMAIN ace card. I think that's why it's been so myopic.

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 09:25
...I'm not a racist for wanting to control migration or take back sovereignty!...No your not. But you showed support for what is to many a racist/xenophobic poster, by calling it "harsh but fair". And that is what you were taken to task over.

MrMarkyMark
18th June 2016, 09:30
Fair enough. When you put it that way, I am happy with that.

Incidentally the borders issue is considered the BREXIT ace card, the economy the BREMAIN ace card. I think that's why it's been so myopic.

Bingo! And much BS being spoken by both sides, sick of it of it all tbh. The focus has been extremely narrow as WTFH says.
Dislike all that are involved, on both sides as well.
The prediction of the far right gaining a lot of political ground in Europe is also coming to pass.

unemployed
18th June 2016, 09:37
the economy the BREMAIN ace card.


:rollin:

yeah that`s working well as is .

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 09:43
He's told the court his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain".

Is anybody willing to hazard a guess as to his views on the forthcoming referendum, and how they might relate to his motives in allegedly murdering Jo Cox? Or is it still too early to speculate? :eyes

ZARDOZ
18th June 2016, 09:43
Sterotyping Brexiters as xenophobic or racist is incredibly stupid. If the polls are right, half of the electorate circa 23 million people would fall into this category. It's divisive and stiring up resentment.

Will going further into the EU help stop attacks by the mentally ill?
I haven't seen any studies on correlation between the two.
Therefore this should be put to bed and the debate should return to the real issues without Project Fear and abuse.

WTFH
18th June 2016, 10:48
Zardoz, this thread is about a person who was attacked and killed by another person. While several have tried to turn it into another referendum thread, that is NOT what it is here for.
This is not a "they call us names" or "they say" thread.
It's not somewhere for doctored images of newspaper headlines.
It's not for people trying to find hatred in someone else's comments.
The victim was not some random Internet forum user claiming that half the country disagree with them, and that every single one of those people who disagrees thinks exactly the same thing. Or that the individual poster represents every single person who might vote the same way as them.
No.

The victim here was a mother of two.

vetran
18th June 2016, 10:49
How would you like being called a racist xenophobe?

I think Cojack was talking about both sides.

Flashman
18th June 2016, 10:49
He's told the court his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain".

Is anybody willing to hazard a guess as to his views on the forthcoming referendum, and how they might relate to his motives in allegedly murdering Jo Cox? Or is it still too early to speculate? :eyes

I'm still waiting for Mr Corybns opinions on terrorism !

Jeremy Corbyn under fire for trying to block extradition of known IRA man - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/jeremy-corbyn-under-fire-for-trying-to-block-extradition-of-known-ira-man-31562716.html)


The Labour leader reportedly put his name to a letter urging the Irish people not to surrender Dessie Ellis in 1990.

Mr Corbyn warned that Ellis, who was later elected to the Dail to represent Sinn Fein, could not be given a fair hearing in the UK because he was being tried for "politically motivated offences".


Sister of IRA victim demands Jeremy Corbyn meets with victims of Provo violence - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sister-of-ira-victim-demands-jeremy-corbyn-meets-with-victims-of-provo-violence-31601159.html)


Sister of IRA victim demands Jeremy Corbyn meets with victims of Provo violence. New revelations on Labour leader's links with terror group....

WTFH
18th June 2016, 10:53
Flashman, please read my previous post.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 10:59
I think Cojack was talking about both sides.

Indeed!

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!

vetran
18th June 2016, 10:59
No your not. But you showed support for what is to many a racist/xenophobic poster, by calling it "harsh but fair". And that is what you were taken to task over.

actually I read WTFH's post and frankly he is right. You kiddies play in another thread.

This is not one to score points in.

WTFH
18th June 2016, 11:05
actually WTFH I read his post and frankly he is right. You kiddies play in another thread.

In your opinion he is right.
The previous thread about the murder of Jo Cox was taken over by those with very strong opinions on the referendum and quickly became distasteful and disrespectful.
Looks like attempts to keep this thread civil and non-partisan are failing.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 11:06
He's told the court his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain".

Is anybody willing to hazard a guess as to his views on the forthcoming referendum, and how they might relate to his motives in allegedly murdering Jo Cox? Or is it still too early to speculate? :eyes

Do you not find it quite astonishing that, one way or the other, some people are trying to "leverage" the actions of this person for a political purpose? How much can you seriously read into it? Think about the alternate scenario for a minute where, god forbid, some EU citizen carried out a heinous act in the UK leading up to the vote. What could we read into that? Would you be arguing about their motives and the relevance for this vote? Personally, I find the spin in the Fail (focus on his mental health only) and the Guardian (trying to link it to the wider Brexit campaign in the "conditional" sense, leaving that dead cat lying on the table) equally disgusting. Don't you agree?

MrMarkyMark
18th June 2016, 11:13
The bloke was a right ring, radical, nutter.
Probably would have killed someone at some point, referendum or no referendum.

Those are the facts.

It's sad to think that people stoop as low to try and use this sad event to further their particular political cause.

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 11:14
Do you not find it quite astonishing that, one way or the other, some people are trying to "leverage" the actions of this person for a political purpose? No, I don't. Because I have a very dim view of humanity. There was, it appears, a political motive behind the killing, but that should not affect the outcome of the vote - though I think it might. Since both side have agreed a moratorium on campaigning, it seems that both sides agree that, in part, that without the referendum next week, she would probably be alive.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 11:28
No, I don't. Because I have a very dim view of humanity. There was, it appears, a political motive behind the killing, but that should not affect the outcome of the vote - though I think it might.

Barring a dramatic swing in opinion, I guess we'll never know, but I sincerely hope not, because he doesn't deserve it. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'd be surprised if many were swayed by this, either way.


Since both side have agreed a moratorium on campaigning, it seems that both sides agree that, in part, that without the referendum next week, she would probably be alive.

I'm completely neutral on motivation and I'll believe the facts as they are reported (contempt rules now apply, so reporting will be very limited), but these facts wouldn't even begin to influence my opinion about the upcoming referendum.

I take a slightly different view on the suspension of the campaigns, though. She was a loved and well respected politician. This referendum is fundamentally a political campaign, and it has been vitriolic in the extreme. It's entirely reasonable and sensible for politics to be suspended for a brief period of reflection, out of respect, but the campaigning should restart quite soon, and vigorously. I see no connection beyond that.

covbob
18th June 2016, 11:30
He's told the court his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain".

Is anybody willing to hazard a guess as to his views on the forthcoming referendum, and how they might relate to his motives in allegedly murdering Jo Cox? Or is it still too early to speculate? :eyes

Interesting. Sadly I do have several friends who regularly spout the rhetoric of anyone they see as in any way unpatriotic or anti-British being "traitors" and calling for them to either be deported or hung from a lamppost.

Whether or not they mean it or it's just hyperbole I find it disturbing language which skews the whole way any debate with them is framed - and once that kind of language becomes the norm for them it tends to leak slowly out of the extremes into the centre ground. That's a scary thought because a. some nutter might actually do it and b. if you think calling for your opponents to be strung up is normal then any kind of sensible discussion is impossible and we're down to polarised, entrenched camps.

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 11:35
Do you not find it quite astonishing that, one way or the other, some people are trying to "leverage" the actions of this person for a political purpose? How much can you seriously read into it? Think about the alternate scenario for a minute where, god forbid, some EU citizen carried out a heinous act in the UK leading up to the vote. What could we read into that? Would you be arguing about their motives and the relevance for this vote? Personally, I find the spin in the Fail (focus on his mental health only) and the Guardian (trying to link it to the wider Brexit campaign in the "conditional" sense, leaving that dead cat lying on the table) equally disgusting. Don't you agree?

She was a politician who was holding a constituency surgery where her constituents could ask her about political matters, and was attacked there by somebody who is reported to have shouted the name of a political party as he carried out the attack, and who has now told a court that his name is a political slogan.

So I think any attempt to argue that this tragic crime should not be viewed as a political act and discussed in that context is naive at best.

Flashman
18th June 2016, 11:36
Unnecessary

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 11:43
Interesting. Sadly I do have several friends who regularly spout the rhetoric of anyone they see as in any way unpatriotic or anti-British being "traitors" and calling for them to either be deported or hung from a lamppost.

Whether or not they mean it or it's just hyperbole I find it disturbing language which skews the whole way any debate with them is framed - and once that kind of language becomes the norm for them it tends to leak slowly out of the extremes into the centre ground. That's a scary thought because a. some nutter might actually do it and b. if you think calling for your opponents to be strung up is normal then any kind of sensible discussion is impossible and we're down to polarised, entrenched camps.

Indeed. Those who indulge in such hyperbole should remember that speech has consequences, and not everybody is as savvy about what should be taken as metaphor and what should be taken literally as they are. If you tell people on national television that "if people feel they've lost control" then "violence is the next step", you have to accept some responsibility if somebody decides that the time for the next step is now.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 11:50
She was a politician who was holding a constituency surgery where her constituents could ask her about political matters, and was attacked there by somebody who is reported to have shouted the name of a political party as he carried out the attack, and who has now told a court that his name is a political slogan.

So I think any attempt to argue that this tragic crime should not be viewed as a political act and discussed in that context is naive at best.

You're avoiding the questions I posed. Where did I suggest that this wasn't a politically motivated attack? There is strong circumstantial evidence, but I'll wait for the facts, and I will believe those facts. Since you're pushing one side of this, I'd like your thoughts on the following. Within an hour or so of her death being reported, the accusation was made (notably by Alex Massie in the Spectator and Polly Toynbee in the Guardian) that Brexit campaigners were conditionally culpable for her death. I cannot fathom how any reasonable person would subscribe to this view. It is completely deplorable and without merit. I don't recall anyone pushing the idea that EU was somehow responsible for her death because they've encourage right-wing extremism. This is an analogous point of view, and equally without merit. Do you want to justify any of these views?

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 11:51
Indeed. Those who indulge in such hyperbole should remember that speech has consequences, and not everybody is as savvy about what should be taken as metaphor and what should be taken literally as they are. If you tell people on national television that "if people feel they've lost control" then "violence is the next step", you have to accept some responsibility if somebody decides that the time for the next step is now.

Goodness me, you've really jumped the shark. I had previously considered you to be a very reasonable person.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 11:55
Indeed. Those who indulge in such hyperbole should remember that speech has consequences, and not everybody is as savvy about what should be taken as metaphor and what should be taken literally as they are. If you tell people on national television that "if people feel they've lost control" then "violence is the next step", you have to accept some responsibility if somebody decides that the time for the next step is now.

I haven't seen any call to violence on the telly.

WTFH
18th June 2016, 11:59
I haven't seen any call to violence on the telly.

Me neither. Might be on Sky though - I don't have it, I'm not a big fan of Elliot Carver Murdoch.

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 12:02
Goodness me, you've really jumped the shark. I had previously considered you to be a very reasonable person.

The chap apparently believed that she was a traitor who was betraying Britain, and that violence against her was therefore justified.

He must have formed those opinions based on something. I can only think of one political grouping that has recently been all over the media describing people of opposing views as traitors who are betraying Britain, and whose leader has said that if his side don't get their way then he thinks it likely they will feel impelled to turn to violence in support of their aims.

So I don't think it's a stretch to assume that school of thought has informed Mr Death-to-Traitors Freedom-for-Britain's actions.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 12:05
The chap apparently believed that she was a traitor who was betraying Britain, and that violence against her was therefore justified.

He must have formed those opinions based on something. I can only think of one political grouping that has recently been all over the media describing people of opposing views as traitors who are betraying Britain, and whose leader has said that if his side don't get their way then he thinks it likely they will feel impelled to turn to violence in support of their aims.

So I don't think it's a stretch to assume that school of thought has informed Mr Death-to-Traitors Freedom-for-Britain's actions.

OK, enjoy your stretches. I hope you disentangle yourself. :D In the mean time, you might want to ponder this, assuming you have a Times subscription:

The lesson of Jo Cox’s death? There isn’t one | | The Times & The Sunday Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-lesson-of-jo-coxs-death-there-isnt-one-sx09v828x)

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 12:07
I haven't seen any call to violence on the telly.

Because it's carefully expressed as a vague belief that there may be violence, in a sort of "not my fault, can't say I didn't warn you" kind of way. Also, I explicitly didn't describe it as a "call for violence" precisely because of its mealy-mouthed phrasing - you're putting those words in my mouth.

Start at 42 seconds in:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX1etFEb4E&t=42
https://youtu.be/2mX1etFEb4E?t=42

DaveB
18th June 2016, 12:10
The chap apparently believed that she was a traitor who was betraying Britain, and that violence against her was therefore justified.

He must have formed those opinions based on something. I can only think of one political grouping that has recently been all over the media describing people of opposing views as traitors who are betraying Britain, and whose leader has said that if his side don't get their way then he thinks it likely they will feel impelled to turn to violence in support of their aims.

So I don't think it's a stretch to assume that school of thought has informed Mr Death-to-Traitors Freedom-for-Britain's actions.

Alternatively just look at the postings of certain groups, ok one group, on Facebook and other social media. The same ones who promised to hang as traitors anyone who stood against them when they won the election for London Mayor.

The media isn't just television, a lot more gets said a lot more explicitly in other forums.

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 12:10
OK, enjoy your stretches. I hope you disentangle yourself. :D In the mean time, you might want to ponder this, assuming you have a Times subscription:

The lesson of Jo Cox’s death? There isn’t one | | The Times & The Sunday Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-lesson-of-jo-coxs-death-there-isnt-one-sx09v828x)

Rupert Murdoch's papers saying we should act like it's all meaningless and not relevant to anything that might adversely affect Rupert Murdoch's interests? What a surprise :eyes

And no, I don't have a Times subscription; I'm going on the headline.

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 12:13
Alternatively just look at the postings of certain groups, ok one group, on Facebook and other social media. The same ones who promised to hang as traitors anyone who stood against them when they won the election for London Mayor.

The media isn't just television, a lot more gets said a lot more explicitly in other forums.

I don't watch television; I get all my news online. No matter how wretchedly foul an opinion is, or which side of the political spectrum it comes from, somebody will end up retweeting it into my timeline :rolleyes:

DaveB
18th June 2016, 12:15
I don't watch television; I get all my news online. No matter how wretchedly foul an opinion is, or which side of the political spectrum it comes from, somebody will end up retweeting it into my timeline :rolleyes:

Oops, replied to the wrong post, that was mean to go underneath PG's earlier post about not seeing anything on the telly.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 12:23
Rupert Murdoch's papers saying we should act like it's all meaningless and not relevant to anything that might adversely affect Rupert Murdoch's interests? What a surprise :eyes

And no, I don't have a Times subscription; I'm going on the headline.

Imagine that, Matthew Parris is now a Murdoch lackey, having engaged in some of the most searing critiques of the leading Brexit campaigners throughout.

Bubble.

eek
18th June 2016, 12:27
Rupert Murdoch's papers saying we should act like it's all meaningless and not relevant to anything that might adversely affect Rupert Murdoch's interests? What a surprise :eyes

And no, I don't have a Times subscription; I'm going on the headline.

Murdoch's papers are merely following the survey results of their readers. Anyone who wants to argue otherwise is paranoid (although at the moment that's hardly surprising)..

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 12:34
Because it's carefully expressed as a vague belief that there may be violence, in a sort of "not my fault, can't say I didn't warn you" kind of way. Also, I explicitly didn't describe it as a "call for violence" precisely because of its mealy-mouthed phrasing - you're putting those words in my mouth.

Start at 42 seconds in:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX1etFEb4E&t=42
https://youtu.be/2mX1etFEb4E?t=42

Watched it. Silly thing to say. But he wasn't calling for violence.

NickFitz
18th June 2016, 12:37
Watched it. Silly thing to say. But he wasn't calling for violence.

I never said he was. I did say


I explicitly didn't describe it as a "call for violence" precisely because of its mealy-mouthed phrasing - you're putting those words in my mouth.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 12:41
I never said he was. I did say

I didn't suggest you suggested that he suggested a call for violence.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 12:42
On a related theme, I think the 77 year old pensioner Bernard Carter-Kenny, who tried to save Joe Cox, and was stabbed in the abdomen deserves a medal, maybe even the George Cross.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/bernard-carter-kenny-jo-cox-mine-rescue-service-veteran-lofthouse?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

unemployed
18th June 2016, 13:28
On a related theme, I think the 77 year old pensioner Bernard Carter-Kenny, who tried to save Joe Cox, and was stabbed in the abdomen deserves a medal, maybe even the George Cross.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/bernard-carter-kenny-jo-cox-mine-rescue-service-veteran-lofthouse?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

brave guy , have they said if he was a in or out man yet ?

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 13:45
Another Murdoch lackey:

No, the mood of British politics did not lead to the death of a valued MP | Voices | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jo-cox-mp-death-not-caused-by-mood-of-british-politics-a7087936.html)

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 13:46
On a related theme, I think the 77 year old pensioner Bernard Carter-Kenny, who tried to save Joe Cox, and was stabbed in the abdomen deserves a medal, maybe even the George Cross.Now, there's something we agree on.

cojak
18th June 2016, 14:01
I think Cojack was talking about both sides.

Yes vetran, I was.

mudskipper
18th June 2016, 14:14
Another Murdoch lackey:

No, the mood of British politics did not lead to the death of a valued MP | Voices | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jo-cox-mp-death-not-caused-by-mood-of-british-politics-a7087936.html)

That article makes sense to me. Blaming politicians for the action of this nutter is political point scoring which should have no place in reflecting upon this poor woman's murder.

darmstadt
18th June 2016, 14:42
As of yet, there are no real facts apart from the fact that a mother of 2 was killed doing her job. What we purportedly know is that:

- he may be mentally disturbed
- he may well have been a member of far right groups
- he may have had extremist far right tendencies

Presumably he'll be tried as a common criminal but will the press label it as a terrorist incident? I only ask because of this: Leytonstone Tube station stabbing a 'terrorist incident' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35018789). In fact the perpetrator was also mentally disturbed but just happened to be a member of the Muslim community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Leytonstone_tube_station_attack

Whatever happens, I hope that he never walks free and that extremist right wing organisations are given the same treatment as other extremist organisations

darmstadt
18th June 2016, 14:43
Murdoch's papers are merely following the survey results of their readers. Anyone who wants to argue otherwise is paranoid (although at the moment that's hardly surprising)..

I thought they did whatever Murdoch told them to do, much like UK politicians...

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 15:08
I thought they did whatever Murdoch told them to do, much like UK politicians...

Or two and a half million of us protest against the war in iraq and Blair bombs the shit out of the country anyway.

SueEllen
18th June 2016, 15:17
I thought they did whatever Murdoch told them to do, much like UK politicians...

Murdoch is hedging his bets - The Times supports Remain while The Sun Leave.

And British politics has been getting ugly even before this referendum campaign.

Loads of MPs have been threatened with violence due to their voting records by supporters of different groups on the right and left as well as religious ones. And that's not mentioning some election campaigns and the Scottish referendum.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 15:29
Murdoch is hedging his bets - The Times supports Remain while The Sun Leave.

I think it's more straightforward than that. I know that Trevor Kavanagh joked about this but, ultimately, it's at the discretion of the editorial team (believe it or not). Coverage in the Sun has been consistently Eurosceptic for decades, and throughout this campaign, reflecting their readership. It would've been astonishing if they'd come out for Remain. In contrast, the Times has been consistently balanced, including throughout this campaign and, while most people anticipated that they'd opt for Remain (in keeping with their readership), it was more finely balanced. Papers essentially reflect their readership and vice versa. The Torygraph will be slightly more interesting in this regard, but I'd expect the Editor (vs. the Barclay brothers) to set direction. The press is broadly Eurosceptic, but I'd suggest the country is too (chicken or egg?):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClO4TQ8WAAEdT8T.jpg

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 15:37
Another fair and balanced commentary IMO:

Contempt of court and the contempt of Twitter - Reaction (http://reaction.life/contempt-court-contempt-twitter/)

GJABS
18th June 2016, 15:50
... Since both side have agreed a moratorium on campaigning, it seems that both sides agree that, in part, that without the referendum next week, she would probably be alive.

I'm not sure that that follows. Had no referendum been announced then we would still be in the EU, and a few violent nationalists would have felt an increased urge to harm left-wing politicians. The referendum reduces the pressure in the pressure cooker a little.

scooterscot
18th June 2016, 16:00
Interesting. Sadly I do have several friends who regularly spout the rhetoric of anyone they see as in any way unpatriotic or anti-British being "traitors" and calling for them to either be deported or hung from a lamppost.

Whether or not they mean it or it's just hyperbole I find it disturbing language which skews the whole way any debate with them is framed - and once that kind of language becomes the norm for them it tends to leak slowly out of the extremes into the centre ground. That's a scary thought because a. some nutter might actually do it and b. if you think calling for your opponents to be strung up is normal then any kind of sensible discussion is impossible and we're down to polarised, entrenched camps.

Agreed.

Abuse hurled my direction when my voting intention was presented in this thread:

http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/114719-exit-poll-indicates-increasingly-likely-landslide-remain.html



Referendums do damage. It'll be months before this is over.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 16:17
Agreed.

Abuse hurled my direction when my voting intention was presented in this thread:

http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/114719-exit-poll-indicates-increasingly-likely-landslide-remain.html

What abuse? I see one comment from DimPrawn, and that's it.

scooterscot
18th June 2016, 16:24
What abuse? I see one comment from DimPrawn, and that's it.

Can't be bothered searching through the other dozen or so threads, but the point is the same. No tolerance.

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 16:25
Or two and a half million of us protest against the war in iraq and Blair bombs the tulip out of the country anyway.And rather more didn't protest.

WotNxt
18th June 2016, 16:50
If the societal condition becomes such that patriotism is viewed as racism and debate is silenced whereas UK MPs campaigning for the benefit of those in other countries instead of their compatriots let alone their constituents is lauded ... those at the extreme ends of the political spectrum may feel the only way forward is violence.

We need to concentrate on allowing debate rather than shutting it down.

The current beatification of this woman is sickening. It is simply the politicians and the mainstream media trying to maintain their stranglehold.

I do not condone this murder, but I see it as a natural consequence of the current state of our politics and society.

Changes must be made or things like this will happen again. Debate should be encouraged, however unpopular the views or the subjects, otherwise the unseen pressure cooker of opinions will blow from time to time.

Words do not kill, only actions. Give us our freedom of speech back.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 16:56
Can't be bothered searching through the other dozen or so threads, but the point is the same. No tolerance.

Conjecture without evidence.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 16:57
And rather more didn't protest.

Millions more were there in spirit.

WTFH
18th June 2016, 17:01
If the societal condition becomes such that patriotism is viewed as racism and debate is silenced whereas UK MPs campaigning for the benefit of those in other countries instead of their compatriots let alone their constituents is lauded ... those at the extreme ends of the political spectrum may feel the only way forward is violence.

We need to concentrate on allowing debate rather than shutting it down.

The current beatification of this woman is sickening. It is simply the politicians and the mainstream media trying to maintain their stranglehold.

I do not condone this murder, but I see it as a natural consequence of the current state of our politics and society.

Changes must be made or things like this will happen again. Debate should be encouraged, however unpopular the views or the subjects, otherwise the unseen pressure cooker of opinions will blow from time to time.

Words do not kill, only actions. Give us our freedom of speech back.



Who has taken your freedom of speech? Who says patriotism is racism? Who is trying to turn a murdered politician into a saint? Who says that having a local MP surgery is not supporting their constituencies?

It appears that rather than debate and dialogue, you are looking to make comments that appear to have little substance behind them. Perhaps if you could answer the above questions of mine it might make debating easier.

WotNxt
18th June 2016, 17:19
Who has taken your freedom of speech? Who says patriotism is racism? Who is trying to turn a murdered politician into a saint? Who says that having a local MP surgery is not supporting their constituencies?

It appears that rather than debate and dialogue, you are looking to make comments that appear to have little substance behind them. Perhaps if you could answer the above questions of mine it might make debating easier.

I stated opinions, which is precisely what you have just done. I do not claim to be good at debating so if you are better at it then BULLY for you. I will not be bullied. Recognise that others have different opinions that you may not like and that may need to be accommodated somehow to maintain peace and balance. Some of those people currently feel marginalised and persecuted by YOUR opinions ... until there is a better balance the nutcases will increasingly crawl out of the dark corners and feel justified to themselves in their heinous actions.

I do not condone violence. I am advocating reducing violence by more balanced debate.

PurpleGorilla
18th June 2016, 17:23
I stated opinions, which is precisely what you have just done. I do not claim to be good at debating so if you are better at it then BULLY for you. I will not be bullied. Recognise that others have different opinions that you may not like and that may need to be accommodated somehow to maintain peace and balance. Some of those people currently feel marginalised and persecuted by YOUR opinions ... until there is a better balance the nutcases will increasingly crawl out of the dark corners and feel justified to themselves in their heinous actions.

I do not condone violence. I am advocating reducing violence by more balanced debate.

Indeed.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Evelyn Beatrice Hall

WTFH
18th June 2016, 17:40
I stated opinions, which is precisely what you have just done. I do not claim to be good at debating so if you are better at it then BULLY for you. I will not be bullied. Recognise that others have different opinions that you may not like and that may need to be accommodated somehow to maintain peace and balance. Some of those people currently feel marginalised and persecuted by YOUR opinions ... until there is a better balance the nutcases will increasingly crawl out of the dark corners and feel justified to themselves in their heinous actions.

I do not condone violence. I am advocating reducing violence by more balanced debate.

Sorry, now you're confusing me - you want to debate, but not with me? And you say that I am making people feel marginalised and persecuted by my opinion?
All I did was ask you who you were talking about, sorry if that was an aggressive question!

cojak
18th June 2016, 18:48
Most are happy to talk, few are happy to listen.

Or answer the questions put to them.

cojak
18th June 2016, 18:55
And I'm minded to move the debate out of this thread. A woman has been violently murdered and this thread has been diverted.

dx4100
18th June 2016, 19:13
And I'm minded to move the debate out of this thread. A woman has been violently murdered and this thread has been diverted.

It was a politically motivated murder... The only way this thread can be diverted is if we all pretend it wasn't what it was.

It seems it's ok to ignore the obvious because he was either mentally disturbed or member of a far right group. The whole problem of the inflamtary language Fargae uses is the potential affect it will have on society and most of all, the weak minded and the potential outcomes. The end game of that being what has happened.

But we can all keep pretending there are no links... Nothing like burying the truth just so the out campaign doesn't suffer a bit of damage.

Happy to believe Jo Cox would of wanted the truth to be told.... And the obvious not to be ignored...

Hopefully, in her memory, minds will be a little more focused on the truths of this campaign rather than the hate Farage has been spreading. As her husband said. Uniting against this hate is what she would of wanted. His words were clear. You are all free to pretend otherwise.

The only people trying to make political ground off this are the ones who want to pretend the obvious isn't obvious to help protect their own political wants.

ZARDOZ
18th June 2016, 19:32
It was a politically motivated murder... The only way this thread can be diverted is if we all pretend it wasn't what it was.

It seems it's ok to ignore the obvious because he was either mentally disturbed or member of a far right group. The whole problem of the inflamtary language Fargae uses is the potential affect it will have on society and most of all, the weak minded and the potential outcomes. The end game of that being what has happened.

But we can all keep pretending there are no links... Nothing like burying the truth just so the out campaign doesn't suffer a bit of damage.

Happy to believe Jo Cox would of wanted the truth to be told.... And the obvious not to be ignored...

Hopefully, in her memory, minds will be a little more focused on the truths of this campaign rather than the hate Farage has been spreading. As her husband said. Uniting against this hate is what she would of wanted. His words were clear. You are all free to pretend otherwise.

The only people trying to make political ground off this are the ones who want to pretend the obvious isn't obvious to help protect their own political wants.

They both wanted to be in the EU. They were both spads to the Kinnochs and the Browns. The husband was at the flotila in his boat supporting Geldof et al. What happened to her was horrible but that doesn't mean we all have to fall in line with the their political affiliations else be accused of being filled with hate which is what it seems to have spun into.

shaunbhoy
18th June 2016, 19:47
The only people trying to make political ground off this are the ones who want to pretend the obvious isn't obvious to help protect their own political wants.

The only people actually benefiting from this are the Remain campaign though, aren't they?
The facts are that a deranged madman has brutally murdered a young politician. His actions cannot be rationalised by those of us of sound mind, and it is churlish and petty of the Remain side to be trying to pin this violent lunacy on the Leave campaign simply to try and prop up their waning popularity.

mudskipper
18th June 2016, 19:56
Happy to believe Jo Cox would of wanted the truth to be told.... And the obvious not to be ignored...

From all that has been said about Jo Cox, she was a woman of integrity, who stood for what she believed in. Her colleagues have said that she was not into "climbing the greasy pole".

I think she would have been dismayed at the political opportunism.

scooterscot
18th June 2016, 20:23
The only people actually benefiting from this are the Remain campaign though, aren't they?
The facts are that a deranged madman has brutally murdered a young politician. His actions cannot be rationalised by those of us of sound mind, and it is churlish and petty of the Remain side to be trying to pin this violent lunacy on the Leave campaign simply to try and prop up their waning popularity.

You don't help your argument by sounding like an apologist.

Truth be told, if PM never called a referendum for political gain in the first place Mrs Cox would still be alive today.

Bee
18th June 2016, 20:27
It was a politically motivated murder... The only way this thread can be diverted is if we all pretend it wasn't what it was.

It seems it's ok to ignore the obvious because he was either mentally disturbed or member of a far right group. The whole problem of the inflamtary language Fargae uses is the potential affect it will have on society and most of all, the weak minded and the potential outcomes. The end game of that being what has happened.

But we can all keep pretending there are no links... Nothing like burying the truth just so the out campaign doesn't suffer a bit of damage.

Happy to believe Jo Cox would of wanted the truth to be told.... And the obvious not to be ignored...

Hopefully, in her memory, minds will be a little more focused on the truths of this campaign rather than the hate Farage has been spreading. As her husband said. Uniting against this hate is what she would of wanted. His words were clear. You are all free to pretend otherwise.

The only people trying to make political ground off this are the ones who want to pretend the obvious isn't obvious to help protect their own political wants.


Could be a political murder, he is a Brexier, it’s a fact, he belong to an extremist party, it’s a fact. What is disgusting is to use her murder for political campaign or propaganda against Brexiers.

shaunbhoy
18th June 2016, 20:33
You don't help your argument by sounding like an apologist.

WTF are you on about? I have nothing to apologize for. This guy has been a crazed right-wing nutcase for many years it appears. This dreadful act was not spawned from the EU debate and, tragically, could have happened at any point. He bought a handbook in 1999 on how to make a handgun. Might as well blame the last Labour government for not investing heavily enough in mental health care as blame the Leave campaign for triggering this. :eyes




Truth be told, if PM never called a referendum for political gain in the first place Mrs Cox would still be alive today.

So it's Cameron's fault then?
You really do have some strange notions. I hope you are getting the right counselling for your logic deficiencies. :laugh

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 20:35
Truth be told, if PM never called a referendum for political gain in the first place Mrs Cox would still be alive today.

Truth be told, if the EU hadn't become what it has, she would've still been alive today.

See how moronic that sounds?

NotAllThere
18th June 2016, 20:35
Millions more were there in spirit.Or not. The millions in spirit (according to you) couldn't be arsed to turn up, so they didn't care that much.

jamesbrown
18th June 2016, 21:24
I think it's more straightforward than that. I know that Trevor Kavanagh joked about this but, ultimately, it's at the discretion of the editorial team (believe it or not). Coverage in the Sun has been consistently Eurosceptic for decades, and throughout this campaign, reflecting their readership. It would've been astonishing if they'd come out for Remain. In contrast, the Times has been consistently balanced, including throughout this campaign and, while most people anticipated that they'd opt for Remain (in keeping with their readership), it was more finely balanced. Papers essentially reflect their readership and vice versa. The Torygraph will be slightly more interesting in this regard, but I'd expect the Editor (vs. the Barclay brothers) to set direction. The press is broadly Eurosceptic, but I'd suggest the country is too (chicken or egg?):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClO4TQ8WAAEdT8T.jpg

As further evidence of this, some fascinating splits are emerging today. The MoS is going for Remain (no surprises there), and I expect that DM will go for Leave (not announced yet). The Times announced for Remain today, and the Sunday Times is going for Leave (quite surprising). Editors set the direction.

shaunbhoy
18th June 2016, 21:54
I wonder what the breakdown is on here of the Remain camp in terms of just what proportion of them actually still reside in the UK?
Not that I feel they are not entitled to have an opinion, but just from the point of view that they may well be less informed and aware of many of the things that are driving so many people from a whole range of political flavours to consider an OUT vote so seriously.

I believe that it is a frustration with their political leaders, who similarly are out of touch with their concerns, that is breeding disenchantment with the whole political elite.
It might well prove to be the case that a vote that goes against what most of these leaders of various hues expect will really shake things up and force a real change in our entire democratic process. Not before time too.

dx4100
18th June 2016, 21:59
I wonder what the breakdown is on here of the Remain camp in terms of just what proportion of them actually still reside in the UK?

:freaky:

I live in the UK

SueEllen
18th June 2016, 22:46
I wonder what the breakdown is on here of the Remain camp in terms of just what proportion of them actually still reside in the UK?
Not that I feel they are not entitled to have an opinion, but just from the point of view that they may well be less informed and aware of many of the things that are driving so many people from a whole range of political flavours to consider an OUT vote so seriously.

I believe that it is a frustration with their political leaders, who similarly are out of touch with their concerns, that is breeding disenchantment with the whole political elite.
It might well prove to be the case that a vote that goes against what most of these leaders of various hues expect will really shake things up and force a real change in our entire democratic process. Not before time too.

Most people in the Remain camp like most people who were in the No camp in the Scottish referendum actually live in the relevant country.

scooterscot
18th June 2016, 22:49
I vote with my feet. Life is short as it is. If my vote can help fix that, great.

Mordac
19th June 2016, 00:42
Truth be told, if PM never called a referendum for political gain in the first place Mrs Cox would still be alive today.

Doubtful, and arguably somewhat disingenuous. What Cameron did may well have been stupid, in your opinion, but that must never be allowed to excuse or explain the actions of a lone nutcase. Instead of blaming Cameron, how about blaming the individual, and possibly those who let him loose on the streets.

Mordac
19th June 2016, 00:47
I wonder what the breakdown is on here of the Remain camp in terms of just what proportion of them actually still reside in the UK?
Not that I feel they are not entitled to have an opinion, but just from the point of view that they may well be less informed and aware of many of the things that are driving so many people from a whole range of political flavours to consider an OUT vote so seriously.

I believe that it is a frustration with their political leaders, who similarly are out of touch with their concerns, that is breeding disenchantment with the whole political elite.
It might well prove to be the case that a vote that goes against what most of these leaders of various hues expect will really shake things up and force a real change in our entire democratic process. Not before time too.

Funny how most of the Remainers seem to be expats. The poor buggers who have to live in this country can't wait to be shot of our so-called Lords & Masters. A plague on both your houses (that's Brussels & Strasbourg, for the uninitiated).

NotAllThere
19th June 2016, 06:06
You don't help your argument by sounding like an apologist...


WTF are you on about? I have nothing to apologize for. An apologist is someone who offers an argument in defence of something controversial. Not someone who apologises.

BrilloPad
19th June 2016, 06:48
Funny how most of the Remainers seem to be expats.

+1

Maybe they are worried that if the UK leaves they will not be allowed back.

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 07:19
An apologist is someone who offers an argument in defence of something controversial. Not someone who apologises.

Precisely, and I in no way offered any defence for what happened. So your point is? :eyes

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 07:20
+1

Maybe they are worried that if the UK leaves they will not be allowed back.

I totally agree. Narrow self-interest. Hardly the most altruistic way to be voting.

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 07:24
Most people in the Remain camp like most people who were in the No camp in the Scottish referendum actually live in the relevant country.

Within CUK? Are you sure? Darmstadt, Scooter and NAT seem very vocal on this thread amongst others. I'd say that represents quite a decent proportion of the CUK Bremain family. Fairly sure none of them currently reside in Blighty.

eek
19th June 2016, 07:24
+1

Maybe they are worried that if the UK leaves they will not be allowed back.

Is it that they see the UK as it was, we see what its becoming?

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 08:25
He bought a handbook in 1999 on how to make a handgun.

I once bought a book on the kamasutra. Much to my regret i've not practiced all the positions. But it doesn't mean i'm going to wheel-borrow someone.

Our actions define us, not our beliefs. Obviously his action couldn't have happened at any point given the crap he was spouting at the time. Would he have done the same to Tiffany at checkout 3 in ASDA while shouting his political message? No. He's a nutter like most far right, mentally ill no doubt and you can bet the powers that be are attempting to push his character deep into that territory.

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 08:45
Doubtful, and arguably somewhat disingenuous. What Cameron did may well have been stupid, in your opinion, but that must never be allowed to excuse or explain the actions of a lone nutcase. Instead of blaming Cameron, how about blaming the individual, and possibly those who let him loose on the streets.

You're right of course. And i don't doubt for a minute he's not alone given the massive increase in mental heath issues facing the UK. The number of our x/armed forces that end their lives in suicide is shameful. We keep ignoring these problems as a society we'll be in big do da.

My point would be to shine light on the dangers of career politicians and their short-term actions, which has nothing to do with the peoples will. It's crass politics and not without consequences.

The UK has its work cut out, it is dangerously lurching to the right, both in and out of parliament. Perhaps if the referendum was given a couple of years like the Scottish referendum,2 debate would be more sincere rather than the mudslinging match it had turned into.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 09:13
The UK has its work cut out, it is dangerously lurching to the right, both in and out of parliament. Perhaps if the referendum was given a couple of years like the Scottish referendum,2 debate would be more sincere rather than the mudslinging match it had turned into.

You don't live in the UK - where do you get this opinion from?

eek
19th June 2016, 09:17
You don't live in the UK - where do you get this opinion from?

Also is the issue left and right or is it more that its finally dawning on the White Working Class Labour voter that in the same way that the labour party in Scotland wasn't representing them (so they went on mass to the SNP) Labour isn't representing the WWC in England and Wales....

I think the issue Scooter has is that he sees Labour and the SNP as left wing and UKIP as right wing... It's not that simple....

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 09:22
You don't live in the UK - where do you get this opinion from?

The clue is in the name. And since i'm the only member of my family not living in the UK my opinion has plenty of real life examples;(

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 09:24
I think the issue Scooter has is that he sees Labour and the SNP as left wing and UKIP as right wing... It's not that simple....

I don't have an issue.

The SNP is more conservative than the conservatives! I like that, just as long as it is done from Edinburgh not London.

eek
19th June 2016, 09:28
I don't have an issue.

The SNP is more conservative than the conservatives! I like that, just as long as it is done from Edinburgh not London.

But you are arguing that Britain has become right wing. It hasn't it's just following what happened in Scotland 2 years ago as the WWC eventually discovered that Labour neither really understand or cared about their problems...

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 09:37
The clue is in the name. And since i'm the only member of my family not living in the UK my opinion has plenty of real life examples;(

If the clue is in the name you must be an ooter for the EU!

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 09:37
But you are arguing that Britain has become right wing. It hasn't it's just following what happened in Scotland 2 years ago as the WWC eventually discovered that Labour neither really understand or cared about their problems...

I knew that post was coming before you wrote it. Scotland is not right wing and never has been. What conservatism is and what the tories practice are certainly not the same thing. The SNP have gone out of their way to protect the state while the tories look for a buyer.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 09:38
I don't have an issue.

The SNP is more conservative than the conservatives! I like that, just as long as it is done from Edinburgh not London.

Self rule for Scotland from London but not self rule for Britain from Brussels.

What hypocrisy. I wanted Scott exit and I want BREXIT, and if Scotland wants to **** off after, let them go. No one should keep a bird in a cage.

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 09:41
Self rule for Scotland from London but not self rule for Britain from Brussels.

What hypocrisy. I wanted Scott exit and I want BREXIT, and if Scotland wants to **** off after, let them go. No one should keep a bird in a cage.

I want Scotland to remain part of the EU.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 09:44
I want Scotland to remain part of the EU.

You need to explain this better. Why leave one Union but stay in another. Surely you are a unionist or not a unionist.

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 09:46
You need to understand better.

I value one union more than the other.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 09:53
You need to understand better.

I value one union more than the other.

No, you value only what is in your narrow self interest.

SueEllen
19th June 2016, 10:30
No, you value only what is in your narrow self interest.

Everyone's self interest is narrow.

I support remain mainly because the younger members of my family do.

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 10:31
Cojak please delete this thread.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 10:34
Everyone's self interest is narrow.

I support remain mainly because the younger members of my family do.

Exactly - pretty much all of us vote for what suits us best.

I certainly do. And you and Scootyscott accept that too.

So it's not a question of what is right, it is a question of what is right for me.

That is why there is no consensus, and never will.

But it doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong, or I am right and you are wrong.

This is freedom of choice. This is democracy. This is what so many have sacrificed themselves for on the altar of freedom!

SueEllen
19th June 2016, 10:38
Cojak please delete this thread.

You can't ask for a thread to be deleted because it upsets you.

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 10:46
You can't ask for a thread to be deleted because it upsets you.

I'm not upset. But it's certainly descended to the bottom of the cesspit.

jamesbrown
19th June 2016, 10:50
I'm not upset. But it's certainly descended to the bottom of the cesspit.

That happened ages ago. You seem to have become upset when the conversation moved to Scotland.

vetran
19th June 2016, 11:01
You can't ask for a thread to be deleted because it upsets you.

how about if it carries on like this it will be in the wail.

Its getting pretty vile.

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 11:29
No. He's a nutter like most far right, mentally ill no doubt and you can bet the powers that be are attempting to push his character deep into that territory.

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't all out to get you. :laugh :laugh

SueEllen
19th June 2016, 11:32
That happened ages ago. You seem to have become upset when the conversation moved to Scotland.

Well that was a very nasty campaign as well.

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 11:36
You need to understand better.

I am the quintessential chip-on-the-shoulder tartan-clad anything-english-must-be-bad dewy-eyed braveheart-is-factual tiresome bigot

ftfy

:laugh :laugh

eek
19th June 2016, 11:39
I'm not upset. But it's certainly descended to the bottom of the cesspit.

Granted it's gone off topic. But it's not a cesspit, we are merely calling you out for your utterly inconsistent views from your home on Germany...

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 11:51
Granted it's gone off topic. But it's not a cesspit, we are merely calling you out for your utterly inconsistent views from your home on Germany...

Why does it matter where my home is? I'm exercising my right to 'freedom of movement' that allows me to work in any EU member country. My opinion is very valid.

Hoist the chip off your shoulder for goodness sake.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 12:33
Why does it matter where my home is? I'm exercising my right to 'freedom of movement' that allows me to work in any EU member country. My opinion is very valid.

Hoist the chip off your shoulder for goodness sake.

Makes sense you are pro EU then. I've lived in other EU countries. I understand your position.

But sniping at us from a distance doesn't seem very sporting.

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 13:14
Makes sense you are pro EU then. I've lived in other EU countries. I understand your position.

But sniping at us from a distance doesn't seem very sporting.

Who is us? We are the same. There is no us and them whilst we're all from the same country. People whose opinions are otherwise only care to divide. Progress is not made via populist quick fixes.

I hope you accept the vote to remain gracefully when it comes.

cojak
19th June 2016, 13:19
Who is us? We are the same. There is no us and them whilst we're all from the same country. People whose opinions are otherwise only care to divide. Progress is not made via populist quick fixes.

I hope you accept the vote to remain gracefully when it comes.

Oh! I've just noticed your '45' disappeared from your avatar. Why did you change that?

jamesbrown
19th June 2016, 13:19
I hope you accept the vote to remain gracefully when it comes.

No, but that's precisely why some of us find your posts quite hypocritical, at times. You did not gracefully accept your loss in the IndyRef. It's in your profile picture FFS! The downtrodden 45.

PurpleGorilla
19th June 2016, 13:20
Who is us? We are the same. There is no us and them whilst we're all from the same country. People whose opinions are otherwise only care to divide. Progress is not made via populist quick fixes.

I hope you accept the vote to remain gracefully when it comes.

Clearly we are not the same.

I will accept it as gracefully as you accepted the Scottish referendum result.

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 13:22
Oh! I've just noticed your '45' disappeared from your avatar. Why did you change that?

Because he lost back then too! :laugh

scooterscot
19th June 2016, 13:23
Oh! I've just noticed your '45' disappeared from your avatar. Why did you change that?

I just like that number :p

shaunbhoy
19th June 2016, 13:28
I just like that number :p

Good. It might well be the % of the Vote that you and all the compliant herd attain on thursday.

PurpleGorilla
20th June 2016, 12:39
On a related theme, I think the 77 year old pensioner Bernard Carter-Kenny, who tried to save Joe Cox, and was stabbed in the abdomen deserves a medal, maybe even the George Cross.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/bernard-carter-kenny-jo-cox-mine-rescue-service-veteran-lofthouse?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Looks like others have the same view;


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/20/jo-cox-attack-calls-for-man-who-tried-to-save-mp-george-cross-bernard-kenny?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Old Greg
20th June 2016, 12:42
Good. It might well be the % of the Vote that you and all the compliant herd attain on thursday.

Not that you can count to more than your 12 fingers.

scooterscot
20th June 2016, 12:44
Good. It might well be the % of the Vote that you and all the compliant herd attain on thursday.

Perhaps when the remain vote comes in Devon can hold a referendum and the rest if the UK will send it on its way.

It like a bandaid, the quicker you tear it off the better for all.

DodgyAgent
20th June 2016, 12:47
Why does it matter where my home is? I'm exercising my right to 'freedom of movement' that allows me to work in any EU member country. My opinion is very valid.

Hoist the chip off your shoulder for goodness sake.

EEK's comment was not a "chip on the shoulder" comment

scooterscot
20th June 2016, 12:49
EEK's comment was not a "chip on the shoulder" comment

Kabab then?

eek
20th June 2016, 13:05
Kabab then?

What's a kabab?

scooterscot
20th June 2016, 13:06
What's a kabab?

Norhten takl for a keabb.

eek
20th June 2016, 13:16
Norhten takl for a keabb.

??? I think something between the chair and keyboard is broken.

shaunbhoy
20th June 2016, 13:23
??? I think something between the chair and keyboard is broken.

There is a nut loose in front of his keyboard. :laugh

scooterscot
20th June 2016, 13:58
There is a nut loose in front of his keyboard. :laugh

Given your banter I doubt yours are suitable torqued.

unemployed
20th June 2016, 14:00
??? I think something between the chair and keyboard is broken.

i would have said between the seat base and waist line myself :laugh

barrydidit
20th October 2016, 13:27
Some nice Brexit nostalgia in this thread - anyone remember that?

Anyhow, it's polling day in Batley and Spen and it seems it's Labour verses an array of loonies. The Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, Greens and UKIP, all declined to field candidates.

The other candidates are:
Richard Edmonds – National Front,
David Furness – British National Party,
Therese Hirst – English Democrats,
Jack Buckby – ‘No to terrorism, yes to Britain’,
Waqas Ali Khan – Independent,
Garry Kitchin – Independent,
ANTI Corbyn* – By-election Protest,
Ankit Love – the One Love Party and
Henry Edmund Burke Mayhew – Independent.


* - Another far-right candidate is Neil Humphrey of the English Independence Party. The pro-hanging former English Democrat member has changed his name by deed poll so he will appear on ballot papers as “ANTI Corbyn – By-election Protest”.

GJABS
23rd November 2016, 13:29
Just come out of the public gallery of court 8. Guilty on all four counts, and almost immediately given a whole life sentence by the judge.
His defence barrister asked the judge whether Thomas Mair could say a few sentences to the court, but the judge refused.
The right sentence in my view. Good riddance to bad rubbish..

northernladyuk
23rd November 2016, 13:35
Just come out of the public gallery of court 8. Guilty on all four counts, and almost immediately given a whole life sentence by the judge.
His defence barrister asked the judge whether Thomas Mair could say a few sentences to the court, but the judge refused.
The right sentence in my view. Good riddance to bad rubbish..

Donald Trump wants him as UK ambassador to the US.

SlipTheJab
23rd November 2016, 13:37
Just come out of the public gallery of court 8. Guilty on all four counts, and almost immediately given a whole life sentence by the judge.
His defence barrister asked the judge whether Thomas Mair could say a few sentences to the court, but the judge refused.
The right sentence in my view. Good riddance to bad rubbish..

The fact he pleaded not guilty says it all really, throw away the key.

GJABS
23rd November 2016, 13:53
The fact he pleaded not guilty says it all really, throw away the key.

Actually he entered no plea. It was the judge who was legally required to enter not guilty pleas on his behalf.

During the trial he just sat there facing forward all the time, never looking around, even to look at on-screen photos the police took of the inside of his own house. Though he did take notes.

No reaction on conviction or sentencing. Then he and his three guards got up and swiftly walked out.

NickFitz
23rd November 2016, 13:57
Nigel doesn't need him any more, now he's got his new friend Donald to play with.