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View Full Version : Brexit rebellion building in Parliament



BlasterBates
26th June 2016, 20:01
Parliamentary fightback against Brexit on cards | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/fightback-against-brexit-on-cards-remain-eu-referendum-heseltine)

Best of three.

:D

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 20:11
:laugh:laugh:laugh

Are you still at Stage 2?

GB9
26th June 2016, 20:20
:laugh:laugh:laugh

Are you still at Stage 2?

I think some are still at Stage 1. Fortunately a lot seem to have moved on.

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 20:34
I think some are still at Stage 1. Fortunately a lot seem to have moved on.

It's hard to lose.

But, it's worth taking a step back and thinking about how this is going to work at the most elementary level. There will be a new Tory PM. They will invoke Article 50. There is no parliamentary approval of that process, it is for the Gov't to invoke in a speech or letter. Once invoked, the two-year process begins. Any agreement with the EU will need to be approved by parliament, but the Gov't is the executive and decides what to propose, not parliament. If a proposal is not approved within two years, we've left, regardless. So, barring a massive climbdown from the EU in which they offer something like EEA without freedom of movement (not going to happen), there is no scenario in which Article 50 is not invoked and, once invoked, no scenario in which we will remain. After we've left, try arguing for renewed membership on the basis of the Euro and Schengen Area :laugh Pretty soon, this is all going to sink in. The next ~2 years is about deciding the nature of our relationship outside the EU, not whether we're going. :laugh Let's be honest, they don't really want us at this point, anyway. We've fecked them around for far too long (seriously, I'd be peed off with us too).

Old Greg
26th June 2016, 20:41
Parliamentary fightback against Brexit on cards | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/fightback-against-brexit-on-cards-remain-eu-referendum-heseltine)

Best of three.

:D

As long as Parliament is making our decisions, that is all we ever asked.

GB9
26th June 2016, 20:44
It's hard to lose.

But, it's worth taking a step back and thinking about how this is going to work at the most elementary level. There will be a new Tory PM. They will invoke Article 50. There is no parliamentary approval of that process, it is for the Gov't to invoke in a speech or letter. Once invoked, the two-year process begins. Any agreement with the EU will need to be approved by parliament, but the Gov't is the executive and decides what to propose, not parliament. If a proposal is not approved within two years, we've left, regardless. So, barring a massive climbdown from the EU in which they offer something like EEA without freedom of movement (not going to happen), there is no scenario in which Article 50 is not invoked and, once invoked, no scenario in which we will remain. After we've left, try arguing for renewed membership on the basis of the Euro and Schengen Area :laugh Pretty soon, this is all going to sink in. The next ~2 years is about deciding the nature of our relationship outside the EU, not whether we're going. :laugh Let's be honest, they don't really want us at this point, anyway. We've fecked them around for far too long (seriously, I'd be peed off with us too).

And this is my thoughts about the Scottish. Sick to death of them. But if they want to go, let them. I have no idea why the EU would want us to stay or why we would want the Scots to stay if they don't want to.

Us leaving makes sense all round. They want more of a socialist superstate. We (England and Wales) don't. Scotland does. So if we left the EU and Scotland left us and joined the EU then we would all be happy.

The trouble is there are so many egos and architects of the 'project' who are seeing their empire crumble in front of them.

stek
26th June 2016, 20:46
It's hard to lose.

But, it's worth taking a step back and thinking about how this is going to work at the most elementary level. There will be a new Tory PM. They will invoke Article 50. There is no parliamentary approval of that process, it is for the Gov't to invoke in a speech or letter. Once invoked, the two-year process begins. Any agreement with the EU will need to be approved by parliament, but the Gov't is the executive and decides what to propose, not parliament. If a proposal is not approved within two years, we've left, regardless. So, barring a massive climbdown from the EU in which they offer something like EEA without freedom of movement (not going to happen), there is no scenario in which Article 50 is not invoked and, once invoked, no scenario in which we will remain. After we've left, try arguing for renewed membership on the basis of the Euro and Schengen Area :laugh Pretty soon, this is all going to sink in. The next ~2 years is about deciding the nature of our relationship outside the EU, not whether we're going. :laugh Let's be honest, they don't really want us at this point, anyway. We've fecked them around for far too long (seriously, I'd be peed off with us too).

I'm reading that there is a possibly of a referendum of whether we should invoke Art. 50. There are alternatives too, i.e. Art. 48 for example.

Old Greg
26th June 2016, 20:51
It's hard to lose.

But, it's worth taking a step back and thinking about how this is going to work at the most elementary level. There will be a new Tory PM. They will invoke Article 50. There is no parliamentary approval of that process, it is for the Gov't to invoke in a speech or letter. Once invoked, the two-year process begins. Any agreement with the EU will need to be approved by parliament, but the Gov't is the executive and decides what to propose, not parliament. If a proposal is not approved within two years, we've left, regardless. So, barring a massive climbdown from the EU in which they offer something like EEA without freedom of movement (not going to happen), there is no scenario in which Article 50 is not invoked and, once invoked, no scenario in which we will remain. After we've left, try arguing for renewed membership on the basis of the Euro and Schengen Area :laugh Pretty soon, this is all going to sink in. The next ~2 years is about deciding the nature of our relationship outside the EU, not whether we're going. :laugh Let's be honest, they don't really want us at this point, anyway. We've fecked them around for far too long (seriously, I'd be peed off with us too).

There is no parliamentary approval of the process required now. Of course Parliament could pass an act requiring such approval.

But it is all rather silly. There needs to be an election for a new parliament through which can be formed a government that has a mandate to negotiate with the EU.

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 20:54
I'm reading that there is a possibly of a referendum of whether we should invoke Art. 50. There are alternatives too, i.e. Art. 48 for example.

I don't know where you read this, but it's completely baseless.

The process (of notifying the EU) is controlled by Gov't, not parliament. What you're suggesting is that a scenario could arise whereby a new Tory PM chooses not to formally notify the European Council of our intention to leave.

I can't believe I'm even bothering to write this. :laugh You can choose not to take me at my word, but I would've said the same, had we lost.

Anyone seriously considering the circumstances in which we ignore the vote, however clever that mechanism might appear to be, doesn't realise what they're playing with. Funny stuff.

Bring on Stage 3!

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 20:55
There is no parliamentary approval of the process required now. Of course Parliament could pass an act requiring such approval.

But it is all rather silly. There needs to be an election for a new parliament through which can be formed a government that has a mandate to negotiate with the EU.

Who proposes legislation?

A Private Members Bill? :rollin:

FatLazyContractor
26th June 2016, 20:57
Anyone seriously considering the circumstances in which we ignore the vote, however clever that mechanism might appear to be, doesn't realise what they're playing with.

Pig shit thick, racist 51.9% British, innit? :laugh

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 20:57
But it is all rather silly. There needs to be an election for a new parliament through which can be formed a government that has a mandate to negotiate with the EU.

ps. I agree.

Article 50 is going to be invoked once the Tories have a PM. Then there will be an election (I hope), assuming the new PM thinks they can win it convincingly. Any party that aims to reverse the decision will need to stand on an explicit manifesto to do this. They will be absolutely killed. Not even a little bit. :laugh

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 20:58
Pig tulip thick, racist 51.9% British, innit? :laugh

:laugh

stek
26th June 2016, 21:09
I don't know where you read this, but it's completely baseless.

The process (of notifying the EU) is controlled by Gov't, not parliament. What you're suggesting is that a scenario could arise whereby a new Tory PM chooses not to formally notify the European Council of our intention to leave.

I can't believe I'm even bothering to write this. :laugh You can choose not to take me at my word, but I would've said the same, had we lost.

Anyone seriously considering the circumstances in which we ignore the vote, however clever that mechanism might appear to be, doesn't realise what they're playing with. Funny stuff.

Bring on Stage 3!

Law forum, believe it or not, I have a law degree....

People that know more than me, but yeah, it's all theorising, guess they're getting off on the legal niceties....

Basically about Art.48 which is how Greenland left the EU, which is basically an amendment of EU membership, it would need to be ratified by all the 28 countries of the EU and the European Parliament. But that would be the case for a Brexit deal under Article 50 anyway, so both have the same level of difficulty.

There is precedent though, though Art 48 isn't 'leaving' in my short span of trying to read the thing without falling asleep.

BlasterBates
26th June 2016, 21:09
Lets face it, it's pretty clear the EU will be squeezing the UK's balls hard and there is a significant parliamentary majority for a solution similar to Norway with the free movement of peopleworkers.

It'll make government easy, just wait for the faxes of the new rules from Brussels and implement them. Boris would then have more time for his charity cricket matches.

:laugh

Old Greg
26th June 2016, 21:21
ps. I agree.

Article 50 is going to be invoked once the Tories have a PM. Then there will be an election (I hope), assuming the new PM thinks they can win it convincingly. Any party that aims to reverse the decision will need to stand on an explicit manifesto to do this. They will be absolutely killed. Not even a little bit. :laugh

FPTP is a funny thing. If only one party seeks explicitly to stay in the EU the Brexit vote gets split.

unemployed
26th June 2016, 21:27
believe it or not, I have a law degree....



NOT:banana:

scooterscot
26th June 2016, 21:30
Westminster are no longer in any position to dictate terms. Nicola Sturgeon is the only visible politician doing anything positive; the rest are either hiding, fighting, resigning or off playing cricket. The SNP could seize Westminster tomorrow and Boris Johnson would be glad to be off the hook.

Old Greg
26th June 2016, 21:32
Westminster are no longer in any position to dictate terms. Nicola Sturgeon is the only visible politician doing anything positive; the rest are either hiding, fighting, resigning or off playing cricket. The SNP could seize Westminster tomorrow and Boris Johnson would be glad to be off the hook.

Yes she is the only one with her act together.

GB9
26th June 2016, 21:37
Westminster are no longer in any position to dictate terms. Nicola Sturgeon is the only visible politician doing anything positive; the rest are either hiding, fighting, resigning or off playing cricket. The SNP could seize Westminster tomorrow and Boris Johnson would be glad to be off the hook.

Get back in your cell biatch. And stop fantasising about the ugly old trout. She's running around making claims she hasn't got a hope in hell of delivering in the hope that someone thinks she is important enough for the EU to do a deal with.

scooterscot
26th June 2016, 21:43
Get back in your cell biatch. And stop fantasising about the ugly old trout. She's running around making claims she hasn't got a hope in hell of delivering in the hope that someone thinks she is important enough for the EU to do a deal with.

Hate such as yours has no place in our future.

eek
26th June 2016, 21:45
Reality has no place in my (wet) dreams.

FTFY

Old Greg
26th June 2016, 21:48
Get back in your cell biatch. And stop fantasising about the ugly old trout. She's running around making claims she hasn't got a hope in hell of delivering in the hope that someone thinks she is important enough for the EU to do a deal with.

Moved onto the anger stage?

GB9
26th June 2016, 21:50
Hate such as yours has no place in our future.

Oh feck off and stop deluding yourself.

You are still in denial. Your glorious leader doesn't have half the clout you think she does. Your arrogance and self-importance does nothing except give a load of us a bloody good laugh.

Fact: England voted to leave. So did Wales. Scotland voted to stay.

I have no problem with Scotland wanting to leave the UK and join Europe. If that's what you want then do it, but stop trying to threaten a country with far more voters who gave a clear mandate to leave. There are a whole host of things the UK parliament could do to feck over Scotland but it's not that childish.

And I don't hate you. I feel sorry for you for your pathetic insecurity.

GB9
26th June 2016, 21:51
Moved onto the anger stage?

Is there a 'can't stop laughing at the deluded Scot' stage? If not, there should be.

Old Greg
26th June 2016, 21:58
Is there a 'can't stop laughing at the deluded Scot' stage? If not, there should be.

Subset of denial.

GB9
26th June 2016, 22:07
Subset of denial.

One is amused.

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 22:08
FPTP is a funny thing. If only one party seeks explicitly to stay in the EU the Brexit vote gets split.

Think about that for a minute. The Lib Dems aren't going to command a majority, and they aren't going to propose that everyone votes for another party (:laugh). The SNP hold all of the seats in Scotland, give or take. UKIP will be off in a corner kicking themselves, but I think we know their position (:laugh).

Which leaves Labour. The party that came out of this referendum with the biggest kicking of all. Most of their leadership now seem to support changes to freedom of movement.

I follow your argument, in principle, but, as we've seen from both sides of this EU campaign, principles don't count for much.

The new Tory PM isn't going to propose a new GE unless it's obviously winnable. But I do propose that it will be obviously winnable.

jamesbrown
26th June 2016, 22:15
Law forum, believe it or not, I have law degree....

People that know more than me, but yeah, it's all theorising, guess they're getting off on the legal niceties....

Basically about Art.48 which is how Greenland left the EU, which is basically an amendment of EU membership, it would need to be ratified by all the 28 countries of the EU and the European Parliament. But that would be the case for a Brexit deal under Article 50 anyway, so both have the same level of difficulty.

There is precedent though, though Art 48 isn't 'leaving' in my short span of trying to read the thing without falling asleep.

Constitutional lawyers, as with all lawyers, make their money by over-complicating things and disagreeing with each other. However, this isn't a point of detail. It's about how you ignore a referendum result without destroying our democracy. I understand that some (remainers) will want to focus on the details (Stage 2 :laugh), but the result is going to lead inexorably to our departure, under terms to be agreed.

JPC
26th June 2016, 22:16
Oh feck off and stop deluding yourself.

You are still in denial. Your glorious leader doesn't have half the clout you think she does. Your arrogance and self-importance does nothing except give a load of us a bloody good laugh.

Fact: England voted to leave. So did Wales. Scotland voted to stay.

I have no problem with Scotland wanting to leave the UK and join Europe. If that's what you want then do it, but stop trying to threaten a country with far more voters who gave a clear mandate to leave. There are a whole host of things the UK parliament could do to feck over Scotland but it's not that childish.

And I don't hate you. I feel sorry for you for your pathetic insecurity.

Well said, thankyou :happy

scooterscot
26th June 2016, 22:18
Oh feck off and stop deluding yourself.

You are still in denial. Your glorious leader doesn't have half the clout you think she does. Your arrogance and self-importance does nothing except give a load of us a bloody good laugh.

Fact: England voted to leave. So did Wales. Scotland voted to stay.

I have no problem with Scotland wanting to leave the UK and join Europe. If that's what you want then do it, but stop trying to threaten a country with far more voters who gave a clear mandate to leave. There are a whole host of things the UK parliament could do to feck over Scotland but it's not that childish.

And I don't hate you. I feel sorry for you for your pathetic insecurity.


The only person that is offended by your hate is yourself as others will not accept it. Not to mention your inability to articulate a response.

Your leaders have abdicated and are not to be found. Progressive talk is only coming from Nicola Sturgeon.

TestMangler
26th June 2016, 22:47
Boris turns Bremainer :freaky:

Johnson vows EU cooperation after referendum result - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037?SThisFB)

SueEllen
26th June 2016, 22:52
Boris turns Bremainer :freaky:

Johnson vows EU cooperation after referendum result - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037?SThisFB)

FFS man!

dx4100
26th June 2016, 23:28
Loving it...

So its the Norwegian model after all ?

Farage is going to go ******* ballistic :freaky:

In all honesty... Given it was almost a draw... Its the best possible move at this point. You can't just ignore 16 million people anymore than you can ignore 17 million.

EDIT: Saying this, the article still goes on about a point based immigration system while also talking about there still being something looking like freedom of movement. So not sure where that is going....

AtW
27th June 2016, 01:49
It's treason then

Old Greg
27th June 2016, 06:50
Loving it...

So its the Norwegian model after all ?

Farage is going to go ******* ballistic :freaky:

In all honesty... Given it was almost a draw... Its the best possible move at this point. You can't just ignore 16 million people anymore than you can ignore 17 million.

EDIT: Saying this, the article still goes on about a point based immigration system while also talking about there still being something looking like freedom of movement. So not sure where that is going....

There needs to be:

1 Recognition of the clear democratic mandate
2 Weasel words about the intention to honour the mandate
3 A real or fake crisis
4 Maintenance of the status quo, badged as a new model of association with the EU.

bobspud
27th June 2016, 07:00
There needs to be:

1 Recognition of the clear democratic mandate
2 Weasel words about the intention to honour the mandate
3 A real or fake crisis
4 Maintenance of the status quo, badged as a new model of association with the EU.

Or we could suck it up and try and build something new and amazing.

It's pretty dismal when they interview one of the poor polish sods that are desperate to stay and the job they have is in an FSCKIng newsagent :(

Seriously we need to be doing something very different and using the talents we are attracting properly. We have plenty of English people that can stand in a shop.

BlasterBates
27th June 2016, 07:00
It's always been clear this is where it's heading even Farage pointed to Norway as a model. Of course they'll try and add a points system, but it won't fly, the best they'll get is a rather useless fuzzy phrase that under certain circumstances they could temporarily suspend immigration from one country with unanimous agreement from rest of the EU and sell this as the return of sovereignty :D

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:12
The only person that is offended by your hate is yourself as others will not accept it. Not to mention your inability to articulate a response.

Your leaders have abdicated and are not to be found. Progressive talk is only coming from Nicola Sturgeon.

I think my response was very articulate. You have said nothing.

Whilst my post addressed the fact that England and Wales voted to leave I also recognised that Scotland voted to stay and should therefore be given an opportunity to do so.

On the other hand, you continue to try and impose the will of the minority on the majority. You have said nothing productive whatsoever.

I also see you are claiming to be 'progressive'. Yet another self-granted description that I assume in your eyes is positive but which no one else understands.

Since the vote you have done nothing but present excuses as to why it shouldn't count. You have said nothing positive. Reflective of the entire Remain campaign.

And I repeat, I don't hate you or Scotland at all. You just don't have the significance you think you do. Have your second referendum and if you vote leave then do so with good grace. It's called democracy and I respect it even if you don't.

scooterscot
27th June 2016, 07:13
Boris turns Bremainer :freaky:

Johnson vows EU cooperation after referendum result - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037?SThisFB)

His language is astounding. Did he get a visit from Mi5 over the weekend on queenies orders?

scooterscot
27th June 2016, 07:16
I think my response was very articulate. You have said nothing. .

You're obviously still angry and spiteful. For the sake of everyone here please just move on to stage 3. Preferably stage 4.

PS: If you can find one post where I've suggested the vote should not count I'll eat my smelly socks.

FatLazyContractor
27th June 2016, 07:17
PS: If you can find one post where I've suggested the vote should not count I'll eat my smelly socks.

If the vote is a valid one, then I will smell MF's socks. :smokin

eek
27th June 2016, 07:20
The problem is actually very simple.

The EU requires free movement of people

We want free movement of labour.

The problem is that for the rest of the EU free movement of people is just free movement of labour as we are the only people stupid enough to not set rules saying that you have to contributor to the benefits system before receiving payments from it.

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:22
What the hell did everyone expect?

We said all along we would continue to trade. Only the petty Remain campaign claimed we would become insular and pull up the draw bridge. Strangely that isn't going to happen.

Trade isn't going to cease, despite the doom mongers claims. We pointed out the Germans would still want to trade with us and guess what? They do!

The main thing we will regain is sovereignty and self determination.

The only thing he has said that I disagree with is a second referendum for Scotland. Sturgeon clearly has the appetite and they voted to stay in the EU so should be given a chance to do so.

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:27
You're obviously still angry and spiteful. For the sake of everyone here please just move on to stage 3. Preferably stage 4.

PS: If you can find one post where I've suggested the vote should not count I'll eat my smelly socks.

I'm not on the losing side so I'm not angry. You clearly are.

You have continually pointed our that it wasn't a majority of the electorate etc. etc. Ad lib to fade. It was a vote. It counts.

I have stated time and again that Scotland should be given a chance to go it's own way as it clearly voted differently to England and Wales. I thought you might agree with this!

The clear difference is that I would not want to impose on Scotland something they clearly didn't vote for. You need to accept that England and Wales do want it.

barrydidit
27th June 2016, 07:30
The problem is that for the rest of the EU free movement of people is just free movement of labour as we are the only people stupid enough to not set rules saying that you have to contributor to the benefits system before receiving payments from it.

A point made by Manfred the German down my local a few years ago. Not sure what he thinks now because he got barred for likening the landlords Mrs to Miss Piggy and then started shouting the odds about Nazis and free speach, but anyway..

What confused me at the time, and still does now, is that if that is indeed the case, why the feck hasn't anybody thought to do it? There'd be millions of votes in it, and it'd save a bunch of cash not paying child benefit to kids in Romania etc? :confused:

dx4100
27th June 2016, 07:34
The main thing we will regain is sovereignty and self determination.

Or least an increased illusion of it...

We haven't stopped being economically reliable on the EU and we won't.... We just now have no say over it and quite possibly have sent the whole of the EU into a possible recession.

If we can retain freedom of movement I think that will be a good thing and will appease me. And the outters can have their illusion of self determination.

original PM
27th June 2016, 07:36
One of the main reasons i voted out was because I wanted to not have to care about what a bunch of seemingly untouchable people based 1000's of miles from where I live had to say about the way the I should act.

Nobody said we do not want to trade - that is just stupid and unless anyone has a genuine reason why not then lets continue under the current trade agreements - they must work for everyone or else surely the EU would not have allowed them - however if any of the countries in the EU wish to renegotiate a different trade deal with the UK then we should certainly talk to them to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Same for the movement of labour - I did not vote to stop 'foreigners coming into our country and taking our jobs' I voted to try and stem the movement of people who for whatever reason were unable to support themselves or integrate into UK society.

I think what this vote clearly showed is that the current champagne socialist Labour party are very very far out of touch with their supposed voters - the Labour party need to understand that they should actually be representing you white van man with a tattoo who likes a few beers and a kebab - but who also is happily married with 2 kids and is trying to do an honest job earning an honest living and is struggling because his home town is constantly having increased pressure put on it by the movement of people.

Those who eat mung bean quiche and drink moccachoccachino's who campaign for this but then go and live in their little cottage in the Cotswolds and so never see the impact of what they vote for to try and appease the sense of guilt they have for living off daddy's capitalist earned money need to understand that labour is not the party for them - they need to form their own party which campaigns for equal rights for everyone and screw the large corporations.

Also Sturgeon - surely you head says no but your nuts say go?

bobspud
27th June 2016, 07:37
His language is astounding. Did he get a visit from Mi5 over the weekend on queenies orders?

I think he's doing something that the remaining camp should take a lesson from.

Namely looking for the middle ground. He knows what he wants but he's now focusing on what will not tear the party and 50% of the country apart. I still think there is time to get further away from this initial stance but you don't negotiate from the widest margin you try and get a conciliatory position.

Of cource if Junkers tries to get silly, just to stem the tide of others wanting to flee it will turn out different.

But after all your moaning it might just be keep calm and carry on...

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:38
Or least an increased illusion of it...

We haven't stopped being economically reliable on the EU and we won't.... We just now have no say over it and quite possibly

If we can retain freedom of movement I think that will be a good thing and will appease me. And the outters can have their illusion of self determination.

Fine, if that keeps everyone happy.

I don't believe we had any say inside at all though. We generally wanted something different to the other 27. I'm sure most of the EU is delighted to see us leave.

Tasslehoff
27th June 2016, 07:40
How can we have a points based system, and join the EEA?

scooterscot
27th June 2016, 07:41
I have stated time and again that Scotland should be given a chance to go it's own way as it clearly voted differently to England and Wales. I thought you might agree with this!


Scotland did not ask for the chance to go it's own way. And neither is it seeking to. You left us after promising us in 2014 remaining with the UK was the best was to remain within the EU.

I'm not certain why the establish is trying to shed responsibility at a time when it is needed the most.

bobspud
27th June 2016, 07:41
One of the main reasons i voted out was because I wanted to not have to care about what a bunch of seemingly untouchable people based 1000's of miles from where I live had to say about the way the I should act.

Nobody said we do not want to trade - that is just stupid and unless anyone has a genuine reason why not then lets continue under the current trade agreements - they must work for everyone or else surely the EU would not have allowed them - however if any of the countries in the EU wish to renegotiate a different trade deal with the UK then we should certainly talk to them to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Same for the movement of labour - I did not vote to stop 'foreigners coming into our country and taking our jobs' I voted to try and stem the movement of people who for whatever reason were unable to support themselves or integrate into UK society.

I think what this vote clearly showed is that the current champagne socialist Labour party are very very far out of touch with their supposed voters - the Labour party need to understand that they should actually be representing you white van man with a tattoo who likes a few beers and a kebab - but who also is happily married with 2 kids and is trying to do an honest job earning an honest living and is struggling because his home town is constantly having increased pressure put on it by the movement of people.

Those who eat mung bean quiche and drink moccachoccachino's who campaign for this but then go and live in their little cottage in the Cotswolds and so never see the impact of what they vote for to try and appease the sense of guilt they have for living off daddy's capitalist earned money need to understand that labour is not the party for them - they need to form their own party which campaigns for equal rights for everyone and screw the large corporations.


^ Give this person the PM's job ^ :yay::yay::yay::yay:

Old Greg
27th June 2016, 07:44
How can we have a points based system, and join the EEA?

We can't. But we can make some stern noises and agree some kind of emergency break.

dx4100
27th June 2016, 07:44
How can we have a points based system, and join the EEA?

Someone clearly needs to sqaure that circle...

Chris Grayling saying there is a clear mandate to control immigration. Someone else who doesn't get how close it was and how there isn't a clear mandate for anything....

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:51
Scotland did not ask for the chance to go it's own way. And neither is it seeking to. You left us after promising us in 2014 remaining with the UK was the best was to remain within the EU.

I'm not certain why the establish is trying to shed responsibility at a time when it is needed the most.

Scotland voted to stay within the UK, possibly expecting to stay in the EU. However, it turned out that the majority of those who voted within the UK as a whole want to leave.

Scotland as a nation clearly disagreed. That should be respected.

I see Scotland having a choice. It can stay in the UK or it can stay in the EU. It can't do both and needs to accept that.

I am saying Scotland should choose. Not the rest of us. I'm fully in to self determination. Not just for England but also any other country that wants it. England and Wales have made their decision and have to get on with it, whatever it looks like. I think Scotland should still have a choice if it wants one.

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:54
Someone clearly needs to sqaure that circle...

Chris Grayling saying there is a clear mandate to control immigration. Someone else who doesn't get how close it was and how there isn't a clear mandate for anything....

If it had been a victory by a single vote it would have been clear.

If not then we haven't been governed by anyone with a clear mandate for a very long time.

dx4100
27th June 2016, 07:54
Many companies plan to impose Brexit hiring freeze - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36636574)

It all going to fine... Unless you actually want a job... :freaky:

Old Greg
27th June 2016, 07:55
Someone clearly needs to sqaure that circle...

Chris Grayling saying there is a clear mandate to control immigration. Someone else who doesn't get how close it was and how there isn't a clear mandate for anything....

http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-freemason-symbol-of-compass-and-square-carved-in-stone-circle-117326272.jpg

bobspud
27th June 2016, 07:55
Someone clearly needs to sqaure that circle...

Chris Grayling saying there is a clear mandate to control immigration. Someone else who doesn't get how close it was and how there isn't a clear mandate for anything....

I agree. Let's just leave our boarders wide open so that any idiot with a passport and no skills can come and work in a newsagents while we pay for a uk national to sit on their arse...

In or out your head should be telling you something needs adjusting...

dx4100
27th June 2016, 07:57
If it had been a victory by a single vote it would have been clear.

If not then we haven't been governed by anyone with a clear mandate for a very long time.

The referendum is over. We can keep on spinning bullshit or we can talk about the reality of the world we now find ourseleves in.

If you think there is a clear mandate for anything other than a "exit" then your going to be quite pissed off for the next two plus years...

GB9
27th June 2016, 07:58
Many companies plan to impose Brexit hiring freeze - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36636574)

It all going to fine... Unless you actually want a job... :freaky:

And if you want to believe that then do so.

We were due an emergency budget and 25% fall in the stock market. Waiting........

sirja
27th June 2016, 07:59
One of the main reasons i voted out was because I wanted to not have to care about what a bunch of seemingly untouchable people based 1000's of miles from where I live had to say about the way the I should act.

Nobody said we do not want to trade - that is just stupid and unless anyone has a genuine reason why not then lets continue under the current trade agreements - they must work for everyone or else surely the EU would not have allowed them - however if any of the countries in the EU wish to renegotiate a different trade deal with the UK then we should certainly talk to them to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Same for the movement of labour - I did not vote to stop 'foreigners coming into our country and taking our jobs' I voted to try and stem the movement of people who for whatever reason were unable to support themselves or integrate into UK society.

I think what this vote clearly showed is that the current champagne socialist Labour party are very very far out of touch with their supposed voters - the Labour party need to understand that they should actually be representing you white van man with a tattoo who likes a few beers and a kebab - but who also is happily married with 2 kids and is trying to do an honest job earning an honest living and is struggling because his home town is constantly having increased pressure put on it by the movement of people.

Those who eat mung bean quiche and drink moccachoccachino's who campaign for this but then go and live in their little cottage in the Cotswolds and so never see the impact of what they vote for to try and appease the sense of guilt they have for living off daddy's capitalist earned money need to understand that labour is not the party for them - they need to form their own party which campaigns for equal rights for everyone and screw the large corporations.

Also Sturgeon - surely you head says no but your nuts say go?

Well based on the new tune is Boris is singing, the UK will still be part of the single market, so will still have to accept all the rules of said market. Sorry but you'll still be subjected to rules made far away, the only difference is now you don't get any say in the formulation of those rules. Seems the working class have been screwed over once again.:smokin

GB9
27th June 2016, 08:02
Well based on the new tune is Boris is singing, the UK will still be part of the single market, so will still have to accept all the rules of said market. Sorry but you'll still be subjected to rules made far away, the only difference is now you don't get any say in the formulation of those rules. Seems the working class have been screwed over once again.:smokin

Don't think that's going to happen. And don't believe only the working class voted out just because the Guardian says so.

Old Greg
27th June 2016, 08:02
Well based on the new tune is Boris is singing, the UK will still be part of the single market, so will still have to accept all the rules of said market. Sorry but you'll still be subjected to rules made far away, the only difference is now you don't get any say in the formulation of those rules. Seems the working class have been screwed over once again.:smokin

That's false consciousness for you.

BlasterBates
27th June 2016, 08:05
And if you want to believe that then do so.

We were due an emergency budget and 25% fall in the stock market. Waiting........

hmm looks like you're still at stage 1 :D

sirja
27th June 2016, 08:05
And if you want to believe that then do so.

We were due an emergency budget and 25% fall in the stock market. Waiting........

The real choas in the markets only comes once the govt makes it clear that's its leaving not just the EU but the single market. That's what Gove said they would do, but of course today we see Boris singing a different tune. As long as the UK is in the single market in whatever form the markets will be fine. Of course being in the single market, means paying into the EU budget (oops no 350 Million for the 'NHS'), accepting all EU regulations (oops sorry but you still can't have those bendy bananas) and of course free movement of labor(Sorry working class people but the poles and Romanians are'nt going anywhere).

sirja
27th June 2016, 08:11
Don't think that's going to happen. And don't believe only the working class voted out just because the Guardian says so.

Really?

Leading bosses press the Government to secure continued access to European single market (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/25/leading-bosses-press-the-government-to-secure-continued-access-t/)

original PM
27th June 2016, 08:15
Really?

Leading bosses press the Government to secure continued access to European single market (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/25/leading-bosses-press-the-government-to-secure-continued-access-t/)

Jeezuz

Yes of course they do - they were the same ones who were trying to persuade us to remain - because they knew what is best for us of course.

O hang on what a second - no they did not think it was best for anyone but themselves.

If you for one second think that that person gives a flying toot about you you are wrong.

meridian
27th June 2016, 08:23
One of the main reasons i voted out was because I wanted to not have to care about what a bunch of seemingly untouchable people based 1000's of miles from where I live had to say about the way the I should act.

Serious question: which of the EU laws and regulations, not also approved by the UK parliament, do you not like, and why? How do their laws influence the way you act?



Nobody said we do not want to trade - that is just stupid and unless anyone has a genuine reason why not then lets continue under the current trade agreements - they must work for everyone or else surely the EU would not have allowed them - however if any of the countries in the EU wish to renegotiate a different trade deal with the UK then we should certainly talk to them to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

That's a nice sentiment, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way in reality. All of the trade agreements will need to be rewritten. Yes, they may be exactly the same as they are now, or they may be more beneficial, or they may be worse. Trade will continue until they change, though.


Same for the movement of labour - I did not vote to stop 'foreigners coming into our country and taking our jobs' I voted to try and stem the movement of people who for whatever reason were unable to support themselves or integrate into UK society.

Which EU foreigners are unable to integrate into UK society? Generally I've found the Polish, Germans, French, Italians, Irish, Spanish very easy going and well able to integrate. Can you narrow your statement down to a particular nationality, or is it just rhetoric? Or do you mean brown people instead?

As for "unable to support themselves", the latest statistics (www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06955.pdf) I can find show that only 2.4% of total DWP claimants were EU non-UK nationals. I have no idea what the reciprocity of this is and how many Brits are claiming the EU equivalent on the continent, but it seems that the notion of Johnny Foreigner coming over here and claiming benefits is a bit of a myth.

BlasterBates
27th June 2016, 08:24
After Brexit especially with Scotland leaving, it will be a weakened Britain internationally.

Why the U.S. is freaked out about Brexit - CNNPolitics.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/24/politics/donald-trump-brexit-scotland-press-conference/)


And the economic hit the UK will take as it extricates itself from a market that accounts for 44% of its exports could leave it with fewer resources to do its share. The U.S. is itself already feeling the aftershocks -- American stocks were down more than 600 points at the closing bell Friday afternoon.
Altogether, that could mean a smaller Britain, less able to meet its defense commitments, and it would pose problems for the future of the U.K.'s independent nuclear deterrent, which is based in Scotland and is opposed by the ruling Scottish Nationalist Party.

sirja
27th June 2016, 08:29
Jeezuz

Yes of course they do - they were the same ones who were trying to persuade us to remain - because they knew what is best for us of course.

O hang on what a second - no they did not think it was best for anyone but themselves.

If you for one second think that that person gives a flying toot about you you are wrong.

Of course they don't give a toss about me and you, but neither do many of the Tories who were fronting the leave campaign. Do you really really believe that Boris Johnson, Micheal Gove and Ian 'Bedroom tax' Duncan smith give a hoot about the little man?

The main issue for Eurosceptic Tories has been political control from Brussels. Going back to Maggie's Bruge speech that's where they main issues with the EU started. They've never had a problem with the single market, and actually support the movement of cheap labour as it' puts up the profits of their corporate backers.

The trick they've played in this referendum, is to ride the populist anti-immigration tiger to secure a leave vote. Now they've got that they can secure exit from the EU, which means exit from the political control and EU Court of Human rights, while negotiating access to the single market which is what their corporate backers care about. I concede in any final agreement there will be some wishy-washy words about the UK being 'able to apply for a temporary halt to EU migration in exceptional circumstances blah blah blah' but to all intents and purposes our membership of the single market will remain much as it is now(migration and regulations et al). That's at least what I can deduce from the words and Boris and Daniel Hannan so far.

TOSH1
27th June 2016, 09:06
I don't think we will leave, I think there will be another referendum and remain will win.

My reason are the following -

1, The Leave victory wasn't a landslide victory. You cannot have over 16 million unhappy voters.

2, Scotland & Northern Ireland do not want to go, and we cannot force them

3, The EU 2nd petition is nearly 4 million votes and growing with some notable people signing it including Tony Blair and 500 other MPs

4, Some of the people who voted to leave are now changing thier minds because -
There is no £350 million extra for the NHS,
No change in immigration
Communities that were a beneficiary of EU money have now realized the there may not be any money coming in and that the Goverment may not make the shortfall

Guarantees wanted over the future of European millions - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fears-loss-of-funding-after-backing-brexit

Cornwall issues plea to keep EU funding after voting for Brexit | Home News | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html)

vetran
27th June 2016, 09:15
3, The EU 2nd petition is nearly 4 million votes and growing with some notable people signing it including Tony Blair and 500 other MPs. Apparently a Mr M Mouse & Mr D Duck did as well.


FTFY

GB9
27th June 2016, 09:23
I don't think we will leave, I think there will be another referendum and remain will win.

My reason are the following -

1, The Leave victory wasn't a landslide victory. You cannot have over 16 million unhappy voters.

2, Scotland & Northern Ireland do not want to go, and we cannot force them

3, The EU 2nd petition is nearly 4 million votes and growing with some notable people signing it including Tony Blair and 500 other MPs

4, Some of the people who voted to leave are now changing thier minds because -
There is no £350 million extra for the NHS,
No change in immigration
Communities that were a beneficiary of EU money have now realized the there may not be any money coming in and that the Goverment may not make the shortfall

Guarantees wanted over the future of European millions - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fears-loss-of-funding-after-backing-brexit

Cornwall issues plea to keep EU funding after voting for Brexit | Home News | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html)

Good luck with that.

We can force them as we are currently a United Kingdom and voted as such. If they want to leave then let them. A couple of smaller nations can't stop larger nations.

We've just had a vote of 33 million people. 4m is irrelevant. And the petition is being investigated for fraud.

We've seen the lies that the Remain campaign put forward. Apparently we are in a position of strength and don't need an emergency budget. So the forecast disaster hasn't happened.

Still a lot of losers at the denial stage, inventing reasons why it hasn't / won't happen.

CretinWatcher
27th June 2016, 09:27
So the forecast disaster hasn't happened.

.

You seen the news recently? On Friday we went from being the 5th largest economy to the 6th largest.
Who do you think is going to be daft enough to invest in the UK over the next few years?
The Leave campaign slogan should have been "Poor but free".

SunnyInHades
27th June 2016, 09:47
The EU 2nd petition is nearly 4 million votes and growing with some notable people signing it including Tony Blair and 500 other MPs


This petition is being investigated for fraud. There are some genuine UK signatures (believed to be around 400k) but most have been made in other countries .. disgruntled Bremainers were/are sending UK postcodes to accomplices via twitter to allow them to complete the signature.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/26/19/35B1D49000000578-3660689-image-a-2_1466967004322.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/26/18/35B1914B00000578-3660689-image-a-68_1466961986618.jpg

[/url]

bobspud
27th June 2016, 10:02
Many companies plan to impose Brexit hiring freeze - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36636574)

It all going to fine... Unless you actually want a job... :freaky:

I have Just accepted a 9 month role for 700 a day in infrastructure architecture so its not like the market is in flames. PS the role was offered and accepted after Thursdays results.

Its time for reality to take over from the ******* that are sat in news rooms trying to make up the next doom story because doom sells more than fat git from the west country booms :banana:

scooterscot
27th June 2016, 10:31
I have Just accepted a 9 month role for 700 a day in infrastructure architecture so its not like the market is in flames. PS the role was offered and accepted after Thursdays results.

Price of a cuppa just went up to £12. So er good luck with that.

bobspud
27th June 2016, 10:43
Price of a cuppa just went up to £12. So er good luck with that.

Don't worry Witherspoon's said that it won't affect their beer prices so I will just drink that until the hysteria has died down.

Flashman
27th June 2016, 10:44
Good luck with that.

We can force them as we are currently a United Kingdom and voted as such. If they want to leave then let them. A couple of smaller nations can't stop larger nations.

We've just had a vote of 33 million people. 4m is irrelevant. And the petition is being investigated for fraud.

We've seen the lies that the Remain campaign put forward. Apparently we are in a position of strength and don't need an emergency budget. So the forecast disaster hasn't happened.

Still a lot of losers at the denial stage, inventing reasons why it hasn't / won't happen.

Ah don't worry about them. The ghastly voters have rejected their precious EU. Bound to be some dummies spat out of the pram.

Every time they go into one of their rants I just hear that sad violin being played in the background...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz_F0RiQcuY

:violin:

cojak
27th June 2016, 10:47
I want some kind of civility from both sides.

We allowed a lot to pass before the vote in order to allow people to express their opinions.

The vote has happened, and I'll be damned if we lose any more regular posters because a few can't stop bitching at each other.

Old Greg
16th November 2018, 17:35
I want some kind of civility from both sides.

We allowed a lot to pass before the vote in order to allow people to express their opinions.

The vote has happened, and I'll be damned if we lose any more regular posters because a few can't stop bitching at each other.

That went well.

jamesbrown
16th November 2018, 17:37
That went well.

Said no client ever that dealt with sas.

AtW
16th November 2018, 17:37
That went well.

:eek

Old Greg
16th November 2018, 17:56
Said no client ever that dealt with sas.

You've got it real bad, girl! Just ask him out and be done with it. At least you'll know one way or another. You might get lucky - maybe he has a gammon fetish.

sasguru
16th November 2018, 18:04
You've got it real bad, girl! Just ask him out and be done with it. At least you'll know one way or another. You might get lucky - maybe he has a gammon fetish.

Poly boy's just smarting because his prediction for the Brexit deal is almost as wrong as his prediction for the last general election. :rollin:
He's not terribly bright you see, not part of the talent :D

Old Greg
16th November 2018, 19:30
Poly boy's just smarting because his prediction for the Brexit deal is almost as wrong as his prediction for the last general election. :rollin:
He's not terribly bright you see, not part of the talent :D
It's more than that. He is practically flicking your knickers in the playground.

jamesbrown
16th November 2018, 19:56
Hmmm, I love the smell of BBQ in the mince subforum.

BR14
16th November 2018, 21:25
why is this in General, and not with all the other krap in the B***** basement?

Old Greg
16th November 2018, 21:28
why is this in General, and not with all the other krap in the B***** basement?

It predates the transformation of General into a safe space for gammons. One of them will be triggered soon enough and it will be moved.

BR14
16th November 2018, 21:43
It predates the transformation of General into a safe space for gammons. One of them will be triggered soon enough and it will be moved.

get back in the hole :smokin

Old Greg
16th November 2018, 22:15
get back in the hole :smokin

Here is a calming picture for you.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/british-shorthair-kittens-uk-flag-cute-union-jack-48872525.jpg

BR14
16th November 2018, 22:33
Here is a calming picture for you.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/british-shorthair-kittens-uk-flag-cute-union-jack-48872525.jpg

Litterlout! :smokin

TwoWolves
17th November 2018, 00:47
The key problem has always been this:

If the EU gave us a good deal there would be a queue around the block to leave the EU, it's not been a great success. The idea is good enough but the execution has not been inspiring and it's caused a lot of serious economic problems in individual member states. It's a neoliberal experiment and it is not as popular in Europe as some people here make out in Europe.

Thus we were always facing a "no deal" exit and the civil service should have been preparing for one from the first day after the referrendum but they did not because they are delusional and incompetant beyond measure, hoped to forge a plan for exit in name only.

It's high time the adults took the helm.

meridian
17th November 2018, 09:16
The key problem has always been this:

If the EU gave us a good deal there would be a queue around the block to leave the EU, it's not been a great success. The idea is good enough but the execution has not been inspiring and it's caused a lot of serious economic problems in individual member states. It's a neoliberal experiment and it is not as popular in Europe as some people here make out in Europe.

Thus we were always facing a "no deal" exit and the civil service should have been preparing for one from the first day after the referrendum but they did not because they are delusional and incompetant beyond measure, hoped to forge a plan for exit in name only.

It's high time the adults took the helm.

What a load of nonsense.

The only reason the Withdrawal Agreement has taken so long is because of the difficulties surrounding the U.K. border with Ireland and the unique circumstances of the GFA. Any other country is free to leave if they want to, but there doesn’t seem to be a queue.

“No Deal” Brexit was never prepared for in the first 18 months because it was then known as “catastrophic” Brexit and there is/was both no mandate for one, nor any majority in Parliament for one. “Easiest deal in history”, remember? The Civil Service get their orders from the government, so if the DExEU didn’t prepare for no deal, then that’s squarely on the minister responsible.

Incompetent beyond measure is right. That would be the Brexiters in charge. Davis, Fox, Raab, etc.

cojak
17th November 2018, 09:40
I’m just tired of it all and the viciousness and lack of tolerance that's spilling into other areas of life.

I’ll squash it when I see it or I’m alerted to it.

Old Greg
17th November 2018, 10:10
I’m just tired of it all and the viciousness and lack of tolerance that's spilling into other areas of life.

I’ll squash it when I see it or I’m alerted to it.

You should learn to be more tolerant of the viciousness. It's not really even started yet. See what happens if Brexit is cancelled or if there is no deal and the just in time supply chains break down.

Paddy
17th November 2018, 10:33
You should learn to be more tolerant of the viciousness. It's not really even started yet. See what happens if Brexit is cancelled or if there is no deal and the just in time supply chains break down.

Unfortunately, the media in particular the DM, Exp, and politicians such as Farage have made bexiters get into a frenzy there will be violence if there is no hard brexit.

jamesbrown
17th November 2018, 10:53
if there is no deal and the just in time supply chains break down.

We should prioritise the supply of comfort blankets, Rosacea supplements and bedtime stories to CUK expats.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/sota/8b772560-edf8-4afb-9cb4-da19daf69ba7._SR300,300_.jpg

darmstadt
17th November 2018, 10:55
I’m just tired of it all and the viciousness and lack of tolerance that's spilling into other areas of life.

I’ll squash it when I see it or I’m alerted to it.

Well you see, there was this referendum, only advisory mind you, however a number of people voted Leave and some voted Remain and this has now caused a great tension across the country. Mind you, there are people who voted Leave but then changed their mind and want to Remain and I suspect that if the result had been the other way and people had actually voted properly after doing a bit of research and having a bit of foresight, this sub-forum and the bitterness would not exist.

Hobosapien
17th November 2018, 11:09
...people had actually voted properly after doing a bit of research and having a bit of foresight, this sub-forum and the bitterness would not exist.

That assumes the remain and leave arguments would be clearly presented with no obfuscation, manipulation, or outright lies by either party, backed by an impartial media that would give concise facts about the state of things and what the effects of remaining or leaving would be.

Not a bloody chance.

So we as citizens shouldn't be angry with each other but with the government that has done the damage. It's not 'remoaners' vs 'brexidiots' but the government would prefer we vent the frustration and resulting anger on ourselves than them so they can continue to be corrupt self serving duplicitous scumbags pretending to be incompetent buffoons.

Twas ever thus.

It'll be alright in the end, so 'chillax'. :cheers:

jamesbrown
17th November 2018, 11:12
Well you see, there was this referendum, only advisory mind you, however a number of people voted Leave and some voted Remain and this has now caused a great tension across the country. Mind you, there are people who voted Leave but then changed their mind and want to Remain and I suspect that if the result had been the other way and people had actually voted properly after doing a bit of research and having a bit of foresight, this sub-forum and the bitterness would not exist.

This is a code monkey forum. We should hit that requirement with a software sledgehammer. Allow me write it up for admin in the behavioural style:

Given a People's Vote that results in brexit
When the expats of CUK become terribly upset
Then we should restrict access to all CUK expats from the CUK mince subforum

:D

Old Greg
17th November 2018, 11:57
This is a code monkey forum. We should hit that requirement with a software sledgehammer. Allow me write it up for admin in the behavioural style:

Given a People's Vote that results in brexit
When the expats of CUK become terribly upset
Then we should restrict access to all CUK expats from the CUK mince subforum

:D
You really do need a snowflake safe space away from the clever meanies!

sasguru
17th November 2018, 12:10
It's high time the adults took the helm.

If you mean Brexiters, they've all minced away because no one wants to be associated with the pain that's to come.

sasguru
17th November 2018, 12:12
We should prioritise the supply of comfort blankets, Rosacea supplements and bedtime stories to CUK expats.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/sota/8b772560-edf8-4afb-9cb4-da19daf69ba7._SR300,300_.jpg

Slight logic failure there.
CUK expats won't be hit by failures in the supply chain, gammons like you will.
But then you're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

jamesbrown
17th November 2018, 13:03
Slight logic failure there.
CUK expats won't be hit by failures in the supply chain, gammons like you will.
But then you're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

Weak. :D

BlasterBates
17th November 2018, 13:21
No deal is no problem.

https://sofiaglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lorries-truck-bg-turkish-500x272.jpg

:D

darmstadt
17th November 2018, 14:04
Feck that, I'm buying baked beans & shotgun cartridges.

You can never have too many shotgun cartridges.:smokin

I wonder if there'll be plenty of tinned unicorn in Tesco's.

Amazon is your friend:

https://www.amazon.com/ThinkGeek-Easy-Open-Canned-Unicorn-Meat/dp/B0089KZPNU

shaunbhoy
17th November 2018, 14:05
So we as citizens shouldn't be angry with each other but with the government that has done the damage. It's not 'remoaners' vs 'brexidiots' but the government would prefer we vent the frustration and resulting anger on ourselves than them so they can continue to be corrupt self serving duplicitous scumbags pretending to be incompetent buffoons.

Twas ever thus.

It'll be alright in the end, so 'chillax'. :cheers:

You'll get nowhere on here talking sense like that. Once the Bremaoners get back from changing their underwear they will be all over it like a cheap suit.

:wink:wink

Cirrus
17th November 2018, 14:22
The only reason the Withdrawal Agreement has taken so long is because of the difficulties surrounding the U.K. border with Ireland and the unique circumstances of the GFA. . I don't think that is true. That has been the thing everyone has been focusing on recently but if that were magic-ed away then you would see loads of other factors tearing the whole thing apart - UK-EU borders elsewhere, banking passporting etc etc.

Basically the Government had two choices 1) Brexit or 2) Cancel Brexit. They all decided Brexit was unacceptable but they didn't do anything about Bracktrack. Without cancelling Brexit they should have spent time negotiating a future with 100% of the world. Instead they have spent almost all their time on the EU - OK it's 50%. But not 100%.

The reason they did this is they had not read the Referendum. They were still banging on like they had been for decades wanting a special version of the EU. Right from the start the EU said "We are not creating an AEFTA - Anglo-European Free Trade Association" . That would have been great for us but it was never going to happen. Sadly the Tory Brexiteers are still going for this (see today's news).

Brexit (aka Hard Brexit) was a valid idea. It would have been damaging. Not catastrophic, but not pretty. But it needed people to face reality. It needed a lot of work. And it needed the Government to wait for 5 years before triggering Atricle 50. Once the flight crew failed to initiate those actions, the plane was doomed to crash.

meridian
17th November 2018, 15:20
I don't think that is true. That has been the thing everyone has been focusing on recently but if that were magic-ed away then you would see loads of other factors tearing the whole thing apart - UK-EU borders elsewhere, banking passporting etc etc.

This is conflating the exit from the EU (the Withdrawal Agreement) with the future relationship. Imagine for a moment if there was a United Ireland and the only party exiting was Great Britain (Eng, Wales, Scot, plus dependencies). There's already a hard border at Gibraltar, and all other borders are sea-based. The only things really to discuss are the settlement of financial obligations and the rights of citizens.

Passporting, rules of origin, phytosanitary checks, mutual recognition of standards, etc, this all depends on the future relationship, not actually leaving.



Basically the Government had two choices 1) Brexit or 2) Cancel Brexit. They all decided Brexit was unacceptable but they didn't do anything about Bracktrack. Without cancelling Brexit they should have spent time negotiating a future with 100% of the world. Instead they have spent almost all their time on the EU - OK it's 50%. But not 100%.
There were many reasons why they couldn't - not least because the rest of the world had other things to do. India was in but they wanted an FTA with increased FoM to the UK; Japan and Singapore were negotiating with the EU; the USA was talking about tariffs on Bombardier and pulling out of the WTO. And most countries were waiting to see what our trading relationship with the EU would look like before they moved.



The reason they did this is they had not read the Referendum. They were still banging on like they had been for decades wanting a special version of the EU. Right from the start the EU said "We are not creating an AEFTA - Anglo-European Free Trade Association" . That would have been great for us but it was never going to happen. Sadly the Tory Brexiteers are still going for this (see today's news).

Brexit (aka Hard Brexit) was a valid idea. It would have been damaging. Not catastrophic, but not pretty. But it needed people to face reality. It needed a lot of work. And it needed the Government to wait for 5 years before triggering Atricle 50. Once the flight crew failed to initiate those actions, the plane was doomed to crash.

Almost completely agree here. 2+2 years sounds about feasible for a Norway exit, 5+2 years for Canada. With a government and parliament doing their job and rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it, once they'd decided what direction they wanted the UK to go in.

It's this bit though - no matter how valid or correct you think this is, if this was the Leave position before the referendum would it have gained a majority?:

Brexit (aka Hard Brexit) was a valid idea. It would have been damaging. Not catastrophic, but not pretty. But it needed people to face reality. It needed a lot of work.

Part of the reason why we are in this position is because the government is trying to square the circle of "sunny uplands" with the reality of leaving. People in general are lazy and want an easy life; when push comes to shove, if this was presented to them pre-referendum as "a lot of work and some hardship for the less well-off" I don't think there would be the same appetite for it.

Cirrus
17th November 2018, 15:45
if this was presented to them pre-referendum as "a lot of work and some hardship for the less well-off" I don't think there would be the same appetite for it.Of course not. Brexit is like children running away from home. It doesn't take too long before it dawns on them how much they rely on their home and their family. The Brexiteers totally ignored the reality that we were part and parcel of the EU and running away from it was only going to last a few hours before the panic set in.

(I know that PosterBhoy is as cool as a cucumber. But thats' only because he is a cucumber...)

Mordac
17th November 2018, 16:11
Of course not. Brexit is like children running away from home. It doesn't take too long before it dawns on them how much they rely on their home and their family. The Brexiteers totally ignored the reality that we were part and parcel of the EU and running away from it was only going to last a few hours before the panic set in.

(I know that PosterBhoy is as cool as a cucumber. But thats' only because he is a cucumber...)

Remind me when we voted for this? We didn't, of course, but we did vote for "not this".

meridian
17th November 2018, 17:25
Remind me when we voted for this?

Every few years, on average. We're a representative democracy, where we vote for MPs to govern and make political and legislative decisions.

If you mean specifically European integration, this is a bit more complex. This is not just political integration. We're also entwined through combined agencies, trade, services, etc. You don't get to vote on whether or not resources are pooled into a central and singular EMA, for example.


We didn't, of course, but we did vote for "not this".

Well done. The main problem is that "not this" has been argued back and forth ad nauseum by the Leavers, and we still don't know exactly what it means. Put the detail down on paper in a draft Withdrawal Agreement then get back to the rest of us.

Cirrus
17th November 2018, 17:33
Remind me when we voted for this? We didn't, of course, but we did vote for "not this".Legs don't vote to be attached to your body but if they try to detach themselves and to walk off it's only a matter of seconds before they realise the massive mistake they've just made. Whether or not you La-La Land Brexiteers like the idea that we are embedded in the EU, the fact is we have grown into one huge, massively interconnected economic entity. Trying cut a bit of that out is a major operation involving all the vital organs.

Your vote was just a black mark on a piece of paper. Stop trying to pretend it represents any kind of plausible reality.