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View Full Version : PCG and QDOS can save the day with IR35 insurance for agencies



Lewis
1st December 2016, 10:40
I'm sure the PCG and QDOS have considered this already, but they could perhaps save the day by coming up with an insurance product for agencies/intermediaries.

After all the IR35 legislation has not actually changed. QDOS and PCG are currently insuring contractors directly, why can they not come up with an umbrella product for all contractors at an agency.

They will soon be losing business from contractors in the public sector that have no use for their IR35 insurance products anymore. If the changes move to the private sector as expected, they will lose even more (if not all business) and yet they still have the skills to defend actual IR35 cases, and have the same chances of success.

I am sure contractors would happily pay for the insurance product either directly as a fee or indirectly through the agency margin. If the agency feels safe they won't lose out (I'm thinking QDOS TLC35 for agencies) they will happily allow contractors to be outside IR35.

It can then all be decided in the courts as it should be.

northernladuk
1st December 2016, 10:56
A) We don't know. It's too early. Why don't you wait and see....

B) Surely if you are putting together a game changing idea it might be worth getting the name of the organisation right. It's not been PCG since 2014. :facepalm:

Great input though thanks.

northernladuk
1st December 2016, 10:57
If you don't want to take it from me... Take it straight from QDOS...

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/118099-lets-say-agency-deems-you-outside-ir35-per-these-new-rules.html#post2339610

Lewis
1st December 2016, 11:01
B) Surely if you are putting together a game changing idea it might be worth getting the name of the organisation right. It's not been PCG since 2014. :facepalm:.

They'll always be the PCG to me :)

Anyhow, it was just a thought that sprung to mind.

eek
1st December 2016, 11:10
A) We don't know. It's too early. Why don't you wait and see....

B) Surely if you are putting together a game changing idea it might be worth getting the name of the organisation right. It's not been PCG since 2014. :facepalm:

Great input though thanks.

WNLUK said.

All we can do is wait for Monday, see the actual law and then work out what if any workarounds / assurances need to be given.

However its one thing to insure 100,000 contractors for £25,000 each on average, its another to insure 1,000 agencies for £2m each.

northernladuk
1st December 2016, 11:12
They'll always be the PCG to me :)

Anyhow, it was just a thought that sprung to mind.

Might want to change your thinking a little then if you want to present forward thinking ideas to the contractor community and be taken seriously.

I've a feeling we've got at least 6 months of this to come :(

LondonManc
1st December 2016, 11:17
Isn't there a confluence of interest here? Why would organisations fight too hard against legislation that they're selling insurance to protect you from? It'd be like Direct Line trying to push for crash-proof cars.

westtester
1st December 2016, 11:19
The MoD are now excluding independent contract reviews as evidence of IR35 compliance from contractors. Who's to say they wouldn't take the same approach for similar agency based insurance?

Lewis
1st December 2016, 11:22
Isn't there a confluence of interest here? Why would organisations fight too hard against legislation that they're selling insurance to protect you from? It'd be like Direct Line trying to push for crash-proof cars.

I believe the argument goes that Ipse are more than just an insurance product, but I've been contracting for 20 years and have yet to meet a member who joined for anything other than the insurance they offer.

northernladuk
1st December 2016, 11:22
I believe the argument goes that Ipse are more than just an insurance product, but I've been contracting for 20 years and have yet to meet a member who joined for anything other than the insurance they offer.

IPSE don't do insurance.

Lewis
1st December 2016, 11:40
However its one thing to insure 100,000 contractors for £25,000 each on average, its another to insure 1,000 agencies for £2m each.

Sounds like a great business opportunity to me.

eek
1st December 2016, 12:07
Sounds like a great business opportunity to me.

Not when you understand what a following notice would do to that insurance bill....

malvolio
1st December 2016, 12:14
I believe the argument goes that Ipse are more than just an insurance product, but I've been contracting for 20 years and have yet to meet a member who joined for anything other than the insurance they offer.

I know quite a few... :tongue

northernladuk
1st December 2016, 12:16
I think this one should go to General.

NotAllThere
1st December 2016, 12:31
The devil is in the detail. When IR35 was first announced, one of the biggest questions was who would be liable. It was mooted even then that it would be the client or the agent. If the checks don't change though, contractors buying insurance to protect their agency/client against IR35 might work.

Lewis
1st December 2016, 13:05
Sounds like a great business opportunity to me.

In fact the more the merrier, at a certain level of take up it won't even matter if the IR35 cases are won or lost. HMRC are undertaking around a couple of hundred investigations a year, spread that cost, including losses, across over a million freelancers and it becomes a small price for contractors to pay. A BUPA for IR35.


Not when you understand what a following notice would do to that insurance bill....

I’d like to think each case has to be judged on its own merits, but I agree things like APNs make me think that HMRC wouldn’t take such an insurance laying down and would try to bulldoze through it.


The devil is in the detail. When IR35 was first announced, one of the biggest questions was who would be liable. It was mooted even then that it would be the client or the agent. If the checks don't change though, contractors buying insurance to protect their agency/client against IR35 might work.

Yes unfortunately I remember those days well. It resulted in the ballooning of the offshore scheme, which is what makes me think someone will come up with something to get around these rules, whether or not it works is another matter.

Will be interested to see the detail. Fortunately, I’m not in the public sector and have worked hard to build a healthy plan B that will protect me going forward no matter what happens to contracting.

northernladuk
1st December 2016, 13:31
In fact the more the merrier, at a certain level of take up it won't even matter if the IR35 cases are won or lost. HMRC are undertaking around a couple of hundred investigations a year, spread that cost, including losses, across over a million freelancers and it becomes a small price for contractors to pay. A BUPA for IR35.

.

You are just talking rubbish now.