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jonnyboy
8th December 2016, 16:27
All,

What is your view of work from the GCLoud in terms of the new proposed IR35 rules?

So GCloud = Public sector portal where PS companies can find services and products from approved suppliers, and visa-versa (companies bidding for PS deliveries)

So if you win a Gcloud contract to supply a chunk of software (lets say create a web site, or create a new database, or create and carry out a training course to train a bunch of people on something), is this inside or outside of the new IR35 rules?

It could be viewed as being as 'jasmine' scenario...

Jasmine is a Website Designer, contracted to a large local authority to design and build a website - off-payroll working rules do not apply.
Context

Jasmine is a website designer who provides her services through her own company, Jasmine WWW Ltd. The PSC has been contracted by a local authority, Midshire CC to design and build a new website, through which local residents should be able to access and use their services.

Midshire CC has agreed to pay Jasmine WWW Ltd £200,000 for Jasmine’s services.

Do off-payroll rules apply?
Jasmine’s task is to design and build the new website. To do so, she will need to work closely with the council to understand their requirements, including technical specifications and timelines. Jasmine will have a large amount of control for how she delivers her work and other than regular checkpoint meetings and progress appraisals with the council’s Head of IT Services, her work will be largely unsupervised.

Jasmine WWW Ltd’s contract with Midshire CC means Jasmine will be expected to:

deliver the website to an agree standard by the agreed date
visit the council’s offices for meetings, but will mainly work from her own office
provided her own equipment needed to do the job in hand
employ her own staff to help deliver the contract if she needs to
cover her own costs and expenses

Using the Employment Status Service
Midshire CC uses the online Employment Status Service to help determine whether the off-payroll rules should apply to the contract with Jasmine WWW Ltd. Given the nature of Jasmine’s work and the contract with the PSC, the service indicates that the rules do not apply in this instance.

Jasmine WWW Ltd has been contracted to provide a distinct product to the council and will bear the costs associated in delivering that. Although her work is for the public sector, Jasmine will not be performing a role which would be considered to be that of an employee.

youngguy
8th December 2016, 16:46
Key points there are a tangible deliverable (website), working off site and using own resources . G Cloud and other frameworks may look better on the face of it but I suspect the new tool and the fact that ps decide will mean the framework matters little.

Andy Hallett
8th December 2016, 21:25
Gcloud is a deliverables based framework, those delivering through this should be ok.

Scruff
8th December 2016, 21:39
Way too complicated for me to read...

bobspud
11th December 2016, 22:54
Way too complicated for me to read...

You need to...

Otherwise you are going to end up in a herd of super temps making everyone else rich except yourself.

northernladuk
11th December 2016, 23:16
GCloud has been tightened up recently so bums on seats offerings have, in the main been taken off. The types of gigs that the PS want won't hit GCloud so there won't be the option to go for it. Doesn't matter what framework you are on, if the gig isn't offered in it you are wasting your time.

There are many many established companies on there already offering any service you can think off. When you are shortlisted you go through a very intensive checklist when you present. No way will a bunch of contractors cut it. One of the key questions that stumps most moat new people to GCloud is 'Have you supplied this service to clients before'and you will get asked about it when you present.

Your question misses a lot of context which makes it very difficult to answer accurately. You are obviously angling at something but the details of that are key.

jonnyboy
12th December 2016, 06:11
The details are that one of my PS clients is looking to offer me some work through GCloud... but no point in going down this route if it does not work.

In terms of the 'have you done this before' the answer will be a yes. Oh, and the client is offering to help set me up as a company in GCLoud with pre-selection for the work once registered. Its the IR35 case and tax implications I am concerned with going forward.

bobspud
12th December 2016, 07:55
GCloud has been tightened up recently so bums on seats offerings have, in the main been taken off. The types of gigs that the PS want won't hit GCloud so there won't be the option to go for it. Doesn't matter what framework you are on, if the gig isn't offered in it you are wasting your time.

There are many many established companies on there already offering any service you can think off. When you are shortlisted you go through a very intensive checklist when you present. No way will a bunch of contractors cut it. One of the key questions that stumps most moat new people to GCloud is 'Have you supplied this service to clients before'and you will get asked about it when you present.

Your question misses a lot of context which makes it very difficult to answer accurately. You are obviously angling at something but the details of that are key.

Not true I know a few micro companies doing well at g-cloud.


The details are that one of my PS clients is looking to offer me some work through GCloud... but no point in going down this route if it does not work.

In terms of the 'have you done this before' the answer will be a yes. Oh, and the client is offering to help set me up as a company in GCLoud with pre-selection for the work once registered. Its the IR35 case and tax implications I am concerned with going forward.

Your issue is that G-clouds not open at the moment. You might be able to get onto Digital Outcomes though if you are really quick.

eek
12th December 2016, 09:05
Not true I know a few micro companies doing well at g-cloud.



Your issue is that G-clouds not open at the moment. You might be able to get onto Digital Outcomes though if you are really quick.

Yep you have until 5pm Wednesday to get into Digital outcomes and as it features Developer, BA and project management options it is worth going for...

nucastle
12th December 2016, 09:40
How do you know about the cut off dates Eek?

My idea is to set up shop with a bunch of ex DWP contractors as a supplier but I have no clue how easy/hard this is going to be.

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 09:55
How do you know about the cut off dates Eek?

My idea is to set up shop with a bunch of ex DWP contractors as a supplier but I have no clue how easy/hard this is going to be.

You and every third contractor that doesn't really know has this idea. A bunch of contractor a good supplier does not make. Getting on the frameworks is the least of your problems. You need to think about your business model and offerings. They will not swap you all to a supplier as that is not how they want to engage you and do you think the other contractors will hang around while you win some business. Your model won't get around the new legislation either as you'll still be supplying personal services.... So many things you need to consider first.

The frameworks are very complex and just having to ask this shows you aren't understanding or researching it.

nucastle
12th December 2016, 10:02
What is different to a bunch of contractors setting up shop, compared to a small/medium/large consultancy winning tenders and then getting recruiters to back fill positions?

Having worked there and seeing how they operate, i don't see how the 'unique offering' would fit around their model of building their own teams.

And thanks for confirming that I don't have a clue. How about helping me get one ;)

eek
12th December 2016, 10:06
Google is your friend - sadly don't have the time to help others as I currently don't really have enough time to do what I need to do.

Digital outcomes is open for registration search for it and start filling the form in...

One thing to remember is that there is a big change between coming in as a member of staff and coming in to provide a complete solution. Previously you had cover if something wasn't done, as the supplier you need to supply - failing to delivery can't be blamed on others....

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 10:13
What is different to a bunch of contractors setting up shop, compared to a small/medium/large consultancy winning tenders and then getting recruiters to back fill positions?

Honestly... if you don't know the answer to this then you really are on the back foot.

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 10:13
Google is your friend - sadly don't have the time to help others as I currently don't really have enough time to do what I need to do.

Digital outcomes is open for registration search for it and start filling the form in...

One thing to remember is that there is a big change between coming in as a member of staff and coming in to provide a complete solution. Previously you had cover if something wasn't done, as the supplier you need to supply - failing to delivery can't be blamed on others....

Digital outcomes isn't the silver bullet out of all this mess though is it. Some of the guys here are swanning around telling other they are on it and they are alright now. I despair.

SueEllen
12th December 2016, 10:14
How do you know about the cut off dates Eek?


Because it states so on the site.

SueEllen
12th December 2016, 10:16
Google is your friend - sadly don't have the time to help others as I currently don't really have enough time to do what I need to do.


If you are not able to competently use a search engine at this point in your career then you have serious issues.

eek
12th December 2016, 10:20
Digital outcomes isn't the silver bullet out of all this mess though is it. Some of the guys here are swanning around telling other they are on it and they are alright now. I despair.

Digital outcomes seems to be being abused by some departments though (looking at one in Swansea in particular). To be honest I'm not looking at it in detail as I'm not likely to be trying to use it in the next year or so. I've registered however as things may change...

nucastle
12th December 2016, 10:29
You know, its entirely possible to come up with answers other than 'go use a search engine' or variations on 'you are stupid, aren't you'.

I am genuinely interested in what the special sauce is that these mythical suppliers are doing, which I've obviously in my incredibly non educated state, have utterly FAILED to see, and obviously if I don't already know right now then I've utterly wasted my life.

Every contractor I know there on a framework, is placed their by an agent who is there by virtue of the fact that a supplier has won some work, and needs a contractor to do it. In nearly every case the supplier has ZERO involvement with the contractor other than invoices and skimming their profit margin.

Now this is not what I'm saying i'm interested in doing, but just what is it that they 'get' and me and every third contractor 'doesnt'.

Every open opportunity on the outcomes and specialists site is to supply bums on seats, so what is so unique here?

eek
12th December 2016, 10:35
You know, its entirely possible to come up with answers other than 'go use a search engine' or variations on 'you are stupid, aren't you'.

I am genuinely interested in what the special sauce is that these mythical suppliers are doing, which I've obviously in my incredibly non educated state, have utterly FAILED to see, and obviously if I don't already know right now then I've utterly wasted my life.

Every contractor I know there on a framework, is placed their by an agent who is there by virtue of the fact that a supplier has won some work, and needs a contractor to do it. In nearly every case the supplier has ZERO involvement with the contractor other than invoices and skimming their profit margin.

Now this is not what I'm saying i'm interested in doing, but just what is it that they 'get' and me and every third contractor 'doesnt'.

Every open opportunity on the outcomes and specialists site is to supply bums on seats, so what is so unique here?

The special sauce is simple. You go and search the jobs listed on the framework yourself and you write the proposal to win the work... Those who are on the framework will get a chance to win the work, those who are used to using agencies and continue to do so will not be able to take those roles that are on the digital outcomes framework...

It's the difference between being a contractor (or super expensive temp come April) and being a business. To avoid becoming a temporary resource you need to act like a business and that means seeking work (heck the frameworks make it easy to see what work is coming up) and being fully responsible for deliverying it..

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 10:45
You know, its entirely possible to come up with answers other than 'go use a search engine' or variations on 'you are stupid, aren't you'.

I am genuinely interested in what the special sauce is that these mythical suppliers are doing, which I've obviously in my incredibly non educated state, have utterly FAILED to see, and obviously if I don't already know right now then I've utterly wasted my life.

Every contractor I know there on a framework, is placed their by an agent who is there by virtue of the fact that a supplier has won some work, and needs a contractor to do it. In nearly every case the supplier has ZERO involvement with the contractor other than invoices and skimming their profit margin.

Now this is not what I'm saying i'm interested in doing, but just what is it that they 'get' and me and every third contractor 'doesnt'.

Every open opportunity on the outcomes and specialists site is to supply bums on seats, so what is so unique here?

How much investment have these suppliers made to get start their businesses? How much are you and your fellow contractors willing to do for nothing before you starting bringing the money in? As Eek says you need to think like a business and you just aren't there.

nucastle
12th December 2016, 10:45
If you are not able to competently use a search engine at this point in your career then you have serious issues.

To find out a specific cut off date for a particular framework, ahead of time, before it was ever mentioned? I bet you are a right hoot to be around.

eek
12th December 2016, 10:47
To find out a specific cut off date for a particular framework, ahead of time, before it was ever mentioned? I bet you are a right hoot to be around.

That was very simple. I registered for Digital Marketplace and it emailed me....

Look you attitude isn't going to help you around here. We will happily give your specific advice if and when you need it but the getting started bit is something you are going to have to do yourself.

And personally I would be doing it myself - as its likely the others will disappear just as soon as they have to do something for no immediate money....

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 10:47
To find out a specific cut off date for a particular framework, ahead of time, before it was ever mentioned? I bet you are a right hoot to be around.

Being aware of all the frameworks and keeping an eye on them is a suppliers job....................

nucastle
12th December 2016, 10:54
How much investment have these suppliers made to get start their businesses? How much are you and your fellow contractors willing to do for nothing before you starting bringing the money in? As Eek says you need to think like a business and you just aren't there.

I think you are missing my point here. This is not an 'I want to be a government supplier INNIT' question. I've worked in the PS, delivered projects to live, left over IR35, worked with many people on different frameworks all doing the same thing and collectively we are asking ourselves if we could remove the agent/supplier and start (supposedly) being masters of our own destiny in that respect. So as per the intention of the topic - just what does this entail?

Currently my suspicions that the only thing these suppliers are actually doing is being masters at tendering, bureaucracy and government wastage, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone 'thinking like a business' other than some forum echo chamber know-it-all rhetoric, and people saying 'you don't get it'.

It's a shame that while we all mourn the loss of PS contracting, we aren't collectively coming up with solutions with what we could do about it (other than complaining and berating others).

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 10:59
I think you are missing my point here. This is not an 'I want to be a government supplier INNIT' question. I've worked in the PS, delivered projects to live, left over IR35, worked with many people on different frameworks all doing the same thing and collectively we are asking ourselves if we could remove the agent/supplier and start (supposedly) being masters of our own destiny in that respect. So as per the intention of the topic - just what does this entail?

But that doesn't get around the legislation so what's the point?



Currently my suspicions that the only thing these suppliers are actually doing is being masters at tendering, bureaucracy and government wastage, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone 'thinking like a business' other than some forum echo chamber know-it-all rhetoric, and people saying 'you don't get it'.

Depends on which suppliers and what they are supplying under what framework. That might be true for a few but certainly not all. You need to do some more research. Sorry for the 'You don't get it' but not one thing you have said makes me think you've not look any further than sitting at your desk saying 'I have an idea'. You need to go and understand ALL the frameworks, understand the offerings, understand what the client wants, understand how you might supply it, understand what the problems are and the THEN you will be somewhere closer to a solution.

SueEllen
12th December 2016, 11:01
I think you are missing my point here. This is not an 'I want to be a government supplier INNIT' question. I've worked in the PS, delivered projects to live, left over IR35, worked with many people on different frameworks all doing the same thing and collectively we are asking ourselves if we could remove the agent/supplier and start (supposedly) being masters of our own destiny in that respect. So as per the intention of the topic - just what does this entail?

Currently my suspicions that the only thing these suppliers are actually doing is being masters at tendering, bureaucracy and government wastage, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone 'thinking like a business' other than some forum echo chamber know-it-all rhetoric, and people saying 'you don't get it'.

It's a shame that while we all mourn the loss of PS contracting, we aren't collectively coming up with solutions with what we could do about it (other than complaining and berating others).

Your point is a silly one.

If you actually worked as a permie in a consultancy (or even been a contractor) not just doing the grunt work, you would be aware that some of the non-paid work the consultancy does is bid work. This is for all clients regardless of whether they are public sector or private sector. The nature of the bid and the amount of work required to put together the bid depends on what industry the client is in.

This is one reason why consultancies have numerous admin and sales staff who don't seem to do much. Only when you end up helping them out do you find exactly what they do. Some consultancies are obviously less wasteful and better at it than others.

Oh and because Eek and others in the past have pointed out where some frameworks are, I've registered for them. I've not submitted a bid so far but because I know what is around I know I can if I get my act together.

eek
12th December 2016, 11:14
It's a shame that while we all mourn the loss of PS contracting, we aren't collectively coming up with solutions with what we could do about it (other than complaining and berating others).

Been there, tried that these changes are political to change how the public sector works and remove the tricks many are currently pulling.

As for how to fix it, you work out what is required to be a proper business and start looking at what is required to do so both in regards to time (filling in proposals / tenders) and money (say, getting and paying people who know how to do it to help you).

The old world is going, you need to work out where you want to stand in the new world and start implementing it.

Given that you've wasted 2 hours on here today talking about nowt have you registered for Digital outcomes yet?

nucastle
12th December 2016, 11:17
But that doesn't get around the legislation so what's the point?

Depends on which suppliers and what they are supplying under what framework. That might be true for a few but certainly not all. You need to do some more research. Sorry for the 'You don't get it' but not one thing you have said makes me think you've not look any further than sitting at your desk saying 'I have an idea'. You need to go and understand ALL the frameworks, understand the offerings, understand what the client wants, understand how you might supply it, understand what the problems are and the THEN you will be somewhere closer to a solution.

You are entirely right, but I was standing up, and not sitting at a desk, with a bunch of other contractors, wondering how this model worked.

The question arose from wondering just exactly what these local IT shops, or big suppliers were doing as it appeared they did nothing more than bid for work (supplying one or more contractors), get shortlisted based on price/skillset/etc , and then engage agencies to fill the roles. I even had a one hour chat with an agent who confirmed that this was all they were doing. The digital agency I was contracted to at the DWP had none of their own people north of Watford and this was just nothing more than free money for them.

So :

What the client wants - developers, ux, devops etc.
How you might supply it - you get agency pimps to send out mail merges
What the problems are - the client has a lack of what they need (see first point)

IR35 issues / engagement aside, I'm not seeing any change from development managers, or people with boots on the ground there, in how this set up is changing at all, or how a savvy 'think like a business' model fits in at anything other than very small scale for the well informed.

eek
12th December 2016, 11:24
You are entirely right, but I was standing up, and not sitting at a desk, with a bunch of other contractors, wondering how this model worked.

The question arose from wondering just exactly what these local IT shops, or big suppliers were doing as it appeared they did nothing more than bid for work (supplying one or more contractors), get shortlisted based on price/skillset/etc , and then engage agencies to fill the roles. I even had a one hour chat with an agent who confirmed that this was all they were doing. The digital agency I was contracted to at the DWP had none of their own people north of Watford and this was just nothing more than free money for them.

So :

What the client wants - developers, ux, devops etc.
How you might supply it - you get agency pimps to send out mail merges
What the problems are - the client has a lack of what they need (see first point)

IR35 issues / engagement aside, I'm not seeing any change from development managers, or people with boots on the ground there, in how this set up is changing at all, or how a savvy 'think like a business' model fits in at anything other than very small scale for the well informed.

And? Given that there is / appears to be a crack down on pulling those tricks (its explicitly included within the new questions) does it matter?

You either play the games and jump through the hoops your customers want you to pull or you don't... One way may get you a lot of work, the other won't....

nucastle
12th December 2016, 11:28
And? Given that there is / appears to be a crack down on pulling those tricks (its explicitly included within the new questions) does it matter?

You either play the games and jump through the hoops your customers want you to pull or you don't... One way may get you a lot of work, the other won't....

Given that the current obsession with 'in house everything' for development projects under GDS then it looks like this model is not going away. In this regard, there is nothing secret other than knowing how the game works.

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 11:36
there is nothing secret other than knowing how the game works.

But there is th le rub. It's very difficult to find out and even more difficult to get a positive outcome.

jonnyboy
12th December 2016, 11:37
And? Given that there is / appears to be a crack down on pulling those tricks (its explicitly included within the new questions) does it matter?

You either play the games and jump through the hoops your customers want you to pull or you don't... One way may get you a lot of work, the other won't....

Eek, which question is that exactly? I did not spot it in the code.

eek
12th December 2016, 11:39
Eek, which question is that exactly? I did not spot it in the code.

There are ones towards the end regarding where the resources come from:-

employees, already known third party suppliers, other I can't remember what all the options were and what question it is....

nucastle
12th December 2016, 11:49
digital-outcomes-and-specialists-2-final-framework-agreement.pdf

This one presumably.

So to paraphrase the clause I'm looking at, you have to supply the offered services yourself, and not sub contract, unless the buyer has agreed to the supplier subcontracting the work. Essentially what eek said is being cracked down on.

youngguy
12th December 2016, 14:45
Digital outcomes isn't the silver bullet out of all this mess though is it. Some of the guys here are swanning around telling other they are on it and they are alright now. I despair.

I've heard that same and it is worth noting that no one (eg HMRC) has said there is a direct relationship between the framework and the inside)outside debate . People are assuming that DOS = outside along with G Cloud as it is deliverable based.

I'm not sure that will help if some ps manager is filling out the new RSS tool and starts answering yes to SDC type Qs.....

nucastle
12th December 2016, 14:53
I'm getting agents ringing me about HMRC jobs and stating the same, yet the manner in which the contractor delivers the services is exactly the same regardless of whether you are on DOS/CL1/G.Cloud etc etc - you are a contractor embedded in an agile team. The framework you got in on is of no interest to anyone actually involved with projects, nor is it of those doing the paperwork.

northernladuk
12th December 2016, 14:57
I'm getting agents ringing me about HMRC jobs and stating the same, yet the manner in which the contractor delivers the services is exactly the same regardless of whether you are on DOS/CL1/G.Cloud etc etc - you are a contractor embedded in an agile team. The framework you got in on is of no interest to anyone actually involved with projects, nor is it of those doing the paperwork.

Same as via GCloud? I don't think so. There is something you are missing and if there is a bod on site there will be a whole world of difference going on in the background. What they are supplying, how it's costed etc... Time to start doing some research rather than just guessing at what you see from your desk.

MrMarkyMark
12th December 2016, 14:59
I'm getting agents ringing me about HMRC jobs and stating the same, yet the manner in which the contractor delivers the services is exactly the same regardless of whether you are on DOS/CL1/G.Cloud etc etc - you are a contractor embedded in an agile team. The framework you got in on is of no interest to anyone actually involved with projects, nor is it of those doing the paperwork.

Why would you expect it to be?
They expect a BOS and work done, they have no interest how you have arrived there.

jonnyboy
12th December 2016, 15:05
I've heard that same and it is worth noting that no one (eg HMRC) has said there is a direct relationship between the framework and the inside)outside debate . People are assuming that DOS = outside along with G Cloud as it is deliverable based.

I'm not sure that will help if some ps manager is filling out the new RSS tool and starts answering yes to SDC type Qs.....

What? The Jasmine example is all about framework and work practices - You provide a product or service off site rather than a day rated bum on seat in front of a clients computer, and it clearly (currently) says using the tool, it will be outside IR35. And the GC or DOS framework will be the only real way to get the project delivery based work going forward in the PS.

youngguy
12th December 2016, 15:46
What? The Jasmine example is all about framework and work practices - You provide a product or service off site rather than a day rated bum on seat in front of a clients computer, and it clearly (currently) says using the tool, it will be outside IR35. And the GC or DOS framework will be the only real way to get the project delivery based work going forward in the PS.

The Jasmine example is about a clear deliverable. If you look on G Cloud you will see project management services supporting cloud deployments (in other words bos PM). As NLUk says, G Cloud is cleaning up and cracking down on this, but I have seen bos wrapped up as deliverables (I myself debated whether delivering a project plan, training materials etc was a tangible deliverable ).

Similarly DOS does have some clear deliverables, but there are just as many contractors roles which could be bos. The framework may help steer outside but there are loads of classic contractor roles delivered that way with some fudged words around deliverables.

I don't recall any of the ESS questions being about the procurement route (to be honest I haven't looked at all the CSV so could be wrong here...).

So, in my opinion , I haven't yet seen anything that categorically says a certain framework automatically = outside.

jonnyboy
12th December 2016, 16:00
The Jasmine example is about a clear deliverable.

And I go back to my old question of what is a deliverable? Their definition in the example is a web site. But that's just code, how is that different from...

1) A software package which calculates revenue
2) A data warehouse delivered which stores x data in a series of tables
3) A project plan which takes what the customer needs, and the PM goes off sites, works out the dates, and delivers the plan.

I fully 100% agree that BOS contractors are stuffed. As are BBC staff working as contractors who read the weather day in and day out, or present Money Box every Saturday. As are contractors who turn up at 9am and are told by CLient manager Tim to do task thingy for the day, then leaves at 5pm.

But if the PS client wraps up a requirement into a project, a project that can be done off site, that the contractor (now freelancer) quotes for at a total of £40k, and will be delivered at some point in spring 2017.... that is the exact thing Jasmine is doing. As GCLOUD/DO is the framework for agreeing the parcels of work.

youngguy
12th December 2016, 16:11
And I go back to my old question of what is a deliverable? Their definition in the example is a web site. But that's just code, how is that different from...

...

But if the PS client wraps up a requirement into a project, a project that can be done off site, that the contractor (now freelancer) quotes for at a total of £40k, and will be delivered at some point in spring 2017.... that is the exact thing Jasmine is doing. As GCLOUD/DO is the framework for agreeing the parcels of work.

I think 'what is a deliverable ' is the key Q as you say.

I am not sure there is a definition? You will certainly get different views about whether a project plan, TNS, comms strategy etc are deliverables or not.

I have actually worked that way, but don't forget many clients do effectively want a bos and it is work for them to look at a schedule of deliverables over 6 months as opposed to just paying a day rate.

Im not suggesting you approach is a dead end, merely that it is not a guarantee.....if all contractors had to do was whip up a deliverable schedule and move to a different framework then everyone would be doing it. Fact is,i don't see ps depts getting away with that, even if they have the desire. Quite a lot of thought goes into the right framework to use and internal procurement generally go with the simplest almost every time (clone)

youngguy
16th December 2016, 08:11
. As GCLOUD/DO is the framework for agreeing the parcels of work.

Word on the IPSE forum is that the HO intend to use the ESS tool and treat it as the gospel. Furthermore there does not seem to be any interest in engagements via different frameworks such as DOS.

I know your client is willing to engage via G, but this does start to signify that the mass of PS may (as many of us thought) just do what is easiest for them.

It's going to be very difficult to find 'workarounds' when the client is looking for an easy life.

eek
16th December 2016, 08:13
Word on the IPSE forum is that the HO intend to use the ESS tool and treat it as the gospel. Furthermore there does not seem to be any interest in engagements via different frameworks such as DOS.

I know your client is willing to engage via G, but this does start to signify that the mass of PS may (as many of us thought) just do what is easiest for them.

It's going to be very difficult to find 'workarounds' when the client is looking for an easy life.

Yep - the only workarounds will occur if and when the department has continually failed to find anyone who can do the work and still needs it to be done.

bobspud
16th December 2016, 11:39
Word on the IPSE forum is that the HO intend to use the ESS tool and treat it as the gospel. Furthermore there does not seem to be any interest in engagements via different frameworks such as DOS.

I know your client is willing to engage via G, but this does start to signify that the mass of PS may (as many of us thought) just do what is easiest for them.

It's going to be very difficult to find 'workarounds' when the client is looking for an easy life.

Yep thats going to be their process until they notice all their contractors are handing in their notice and walking off site. then they will have a rethink....

BoredBloke
16th December 2016, 11:55
Yep thats going to be their process until they notice all their contractors are handing in their notice and walking off site. then they will have a rethink....

April should be an interesting time as the notices start flying in. TBH if I were in a PS gig I'd be looking to get out now and avoid the stampede

eek
16th December 2016, 12:00
April should be an interesting time as the notices start flying in. TBH if I were in a PS gig I'd be looking to get out now and avoid the stampede

Yep - that's been my advice to anyone who has looked since about June.

Best to get out of the public sector asap and not return until things have settled down which will be at the earliest April 2018....

TheFaQQer
16th December 2016, 12:01
April should be an interesting time as the notices start flying in. TBH if I were in a PS gig I'd be looking to get out now and avoid the stampede

That's a message that I gave to The Times when they interviewed me after the budget in March this year - if I was in PS I would have left ASAP, and if I was out I wouldn't consider PS.

nucastle
16th December 2016, 12:03
Yep - that's been my advice to anyone who has looked since about June.

Best to get out of the public sector asap and not return until things have settled down which will be at the earliest April 2018....

That's not what you allude to doing though? Haven't you set yourself up on DOS and are going to be offering your wares for sale on there come January (if you get accepted)?

eek
16th December 2016, 12:09
That's not what you allude to doing though? Haven't you set yourself up on DOS and are going to be offering your wares for sale on there come January (if you get accepted)?

Nope.... I was setting up a consultancy which would be selling software add-ons - I've registered for DOS but won't be using it as anyone who has read all my posts will know that that's on hold for a bit while I do some contract work for one particular company (I'm still going to be selling the software, I'm just not providing the consultancy bit personally)...

And since June I've been clear its best to escape this train crash before it impacts you.... The only reason for me being on DOS is as an absolute last choice backup plan (you can't use it unless you are registered on it)...

nucastle
16th December 2016, 12:18
So, let's say we get our predicted nuclear winter of all standard BOS contractors fleeing the PS en masse.

Does this not leave a vacuum for anyone with the balls to register on DOS, bidding for and offering teams/outcomes to pick up the slack that might end up making its way on there, if the Government uses this framework for its intended purpose.

Clearly anyone in the 'one man band' contractor mindset is going to need to worry about IR35, but I'm (maybe naively) looking at this a means to expand operations, and DOS from the looks of it appears to be a way of doing that.

As this is a GCloud discussion, I'm looking at this as a place to discuss potential opportunities, rather than the other threads which are doing a good job of predicting the end of the world quite well.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 12:21
That's not what you allude to doing though? Haven't you set yourself up on DOS and are going to be offering your wares for sale on there come January (if you get accepted)?

No good being in there if they don't use it to resource. PS are very structured and if they have a standard framework for bringing contingents in then that is what they will continue to do. Suppliers can't dictate their process just because of some tax changes, for now at least.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 12:24
That's a message that I gave to The Times when they interviewed me after the budget in March this year - if I was in PS I would have left ASAP, and if I was out I wouldn't consider PS.

This is exactly what I did and how I see it now. There is plenty of work in the Private sector (for now). I find it a little bemusing the lengths some are going to to manufacture process the PS just won't use and attempt to stay. Can't help thinking if you are that desperate to stay in the PS then you must really be a pseudo employee and should be caught by this.

eek
16th December 2016, 12:26
I also don't suspect it will have much of a long term impact. Most people need to eat so won't leave in a rush when their pay is slashed in April / May until they find something else (and I suspect most won't find anything else). And those that do leave may find that they can't find other work so return to the public sector with their tail between their legs in September / October.

Ideally the above won't happen and it will be a great opportunity for specialists to raise rates but if I'm being honest it won't happen

youngguy
16th December 2016, 13:54
Yep thats going to be their process until they notice all their contractors are handing in their notice and walking off site. then they will have a rethink....

Indeed. I think eventually there will be 'workarounds' or rates will creep up. I think we might be looking the best part of a yr away though

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 13:57
Indeed. I think eventually there will be 'workarounds' or rates will creep up. I think we might be looking the best part of a yr away though

I'd put my money on it getting pulled or re-engineered before the deptartments start bucking their own processes tbh.

youngguy
16th December 2016, 14:01
Clearly anyone in the 'one man band' contractor mindset is going to need to worry about IR35, but I'm (maybe naively) looking at this a means to expand operations, and DOS from the looks of it appears to be a way of doing that.

.
What's this though?

If you are not a one man band and you want to 'get around' the new stuff you basically have to either take on staff (and pay them salaries regardless of whether you have work) or take on sub contractors ...and then they would have the paye tax and you'd be doing rti etc.

youngguy
16th December 2016, 14:09
I'd put my money on it getting pulled or re-engineered before the deptartments start bucking their own processes tbh.

If they do that I look forward to seeing what PR spin they go for give. How no expert has said this approach is a good idea.rjat'll be popcorn time

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 14:47
If they do that I look forward to seeing what PR spin they go for give. How no expert has said this approach is a good idea.rjat'll be popcorn time

Well so far it's looking just like how the BETs came, all-be-it quite a bit more serious but the way it's panned out so far it has more than a few similarities. Could be an awful comparison and assumption that is just plain wrong but only time will tell.

TheFaQQer
16th December 2016, 16:11
This is exactly what I did and how I see it now. There is plenty of work in the Private sector (for now). I find it a little bemusing the lengths some are going to to manufacture process the PS just won't use and attempt to stay. Can't help thinking if you are that desperate to stay in the PS then you must really be a pseudo employee and should be caught by this.

I'm not certain about your last line - some of my best rates have been in public sector, so I can see why there would be a certain appeal. However, that's irrelevant from April unless the rates are truly amazing.

nucastle
16th December 2016, 16:40
What's this though?

If you are not a one man band and you want to 'get around' the new stuff you basically have to either take on staff (and pay them salaries regardless of whether you have work) or take on sub contractors ...and then they would have the paye tax and you'd be doing rti etc.

Well that's what I'm getting at.

I'm not looking to 'get around' anything, but looking at it from another perspective which is given most of us ex/current PS contractors know how things work there, then what is to stop a few like minded contractors clubbing together, forming a consultancy, potentially taking on some salaried staff and going to market via one of these frameworks.

If there is some tangible walk out, and the Government attempts to procure outcomes/specialists in the way they 'say' they want to do it (yes, big 'IF') then maybe this is an opportunity.

The other alternatives/workarounds discussed on other threads are completely outside of what I'm suggesting, which on the face of it (not that anyone is giving any details) appear to just be artificial structures attempting to keep PSC contractors doing what they have always done.

eek
16th December 2016, 16:46
Well that's what I'm getting at.

I'm not looking to 'get around' anything, but looking at it from another perspective which is given most of us ex/current PS contractors know how things work there, then what is to stop a few like minded contractors clubbing together, forming a consultancy, potentially taking on some salaried staff and going to market via one of these frameworks.

If there is some tangible walk out, and the Government attempts to procure outcomes/specialists in the way they 'say' they want to do it (yes, big 'IF') then maybe this is an opportunity.

The other alternatives/workarounds discussed on other threads are completely outside of what I'm suggesting, which on the face of it (not that anyone is giving any details) appear to just be artificial structures attempting to keep PSC contractors doing what they have always done.

Good luck with that plan. My comment would be watch out for freeloaders as you do all the work.....

nucastle
16th December 2016, 16:49
Good luck with that plan. My comment would be watch out for freeloaders as you do all the work.....

Is the same not true of all the local consultancies who have embedded teams at HMRC/DWP? Newcastle has the likes of Orangebus, Indigo Blue and Opencast Software all doing the same thing.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 16:51
Well that's what I'm getting at.

I'm not looking to 'get around' anything, but looking at it from another perspective which is given most of us ex/current PS contractors know how things work there, then what is to stop a few like minded contractors clubbing together, forming a consultancy, potentially taking on some salaried staff and going to market via one of these frameworks.

If there is some tangible walk out, and the Government attempts to procure outcomes/specialists in the way they 'say' they want to do it (yes, big 'IF') then maybe this is an opportunity.

The other alternatives/workarounds discussed on other threads are completely outside of what I'm suggesting, which on the face of it (not that anyone is giving any details) appear to just be artificial structures attempting to keep PSC contractors doing what they have always done.

I'm not to sure why you are still going on about this. If you want to do it go ahead. No point trying to convince us. Enough of us know that a bunch of contractors makes an awful platform for a service, the cost of setting this up, the risks of having all your eggs in one basket, then politics of the PS and so on to be highly skeptical so you aren't going to convince us. Time to do and not talk and prove us wrong. Take a look on GCloud, see what you can actually delivery and get started.

A smart cookie that can pull this off will already be working at it and don't need these changes to makemit happen. The fact you are doing this in response to the changes is to me a 'get around'. If it's possible why didn't you don't before. Now you are up against every other Tom Dick and Harry and trying to get the ear of the right people that aren't sick of hearing this so it is going to just get harder.

You are right. If you can do it it's a good idea. Time to just get on with it.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 16:53
Is the same not true of all the local consultancies who have embedded teams at HMRC/DWP? Newcastle has the likes of Orangebus, Indigo Blue and Opencast Software all doing the same thing.

Difference is they got on with it at the right time rather than talked about it. Those are the ones that won the business BTW. Look at the number of suppliers in GCloud that didn't.

eek
16th December 2016, 16:54
Is the same not true of all the local consultancies who have embedded teams at HMRC/DWP? Newcastle has the likes of Orangebus, Indigo Blue and Opencast Software all doing the same thing.

Yep, they are just better at recruiting staff than HMRC for reasons I've never quite grasped. Mind you I've never dealt with an Orangebus, Indigo Blue or Opencast employee that I would actually employ, they are just Northern version of Indian bodyshops providing poor skillsets at prices slightly above said Indian bodyshops.

nucastle
16th December 2016, 16:57
I'm not to sure why you are still going on about this. If you want to do it go ahead. No point trying to convince us. Enough of us know that a bunch of contractors makes an awful platform for a service, the cost of setting this up, the risks of having all your eggs in one basket, then politics of the PS and so on to be highly skeptical so you aren't going to convince us. Time to do and not talk and prove us wrong. Take a look on GCloud, see what you can actually delivery and get started.

A smart cookie that can pull this off will already be working at it and don't need these changes to makemit happen. The fact you are doing this in response to the changes is to me a 'get around'. If it's possible why didn't you don't before. Now you are up against every other Tom Dick and Harry and trying to get the ear of the right people that aren't sick of hearing this so it is going to just get harder.

You are right. If you can do it it's a good idea. Time to just get on with it.

Nah mate, I'm done with the PS. :banana:

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 17:00
I'm not certain about your last line - some of my best rates have been in public sector, so I can see why there would be a certain appeal. However, that's irrelevant from April unless the rates are truly amazing.

And so was my rate and yes I can see the attraction but it's just another piece of the contractor pie. They weren't that good that I'd be making up all sorts of dubious schemes as an attempt to stay because it's all I know and scared of leaving the PS. You just have to shrug and carry on being a contractor. If you are that desperate to stay then you ain't a contractor.

TheFaQQer
16th December 2016, 17:02
I'm not looking to 'get around' anything, but looking at it from another perspective which is given most of us ex/current PS contractors know how things work there, then what is to stop a few like minded contractors clubbing together, forming a consultancy, potentially taking on some salaried staff and going to market via one of these frameworks.

There is nothing to stop you doing that. A question I'd ask is why you haven't done that before if you think that it's a good business opportunity to enable you to expand and build that consultancy (or is there a lack of opportunities being advertised that you think will pick up in the near future?).

The danger you face is that you have little to no experience of running a consultancy, which is different from running a one-person business, a lack of track record when the client says "where have you done this before", and the potential to have some one (or more than one) not deliver as much as they promised and you have to pick up the slack. If you can get past that, then it's a great idea and you should do it; if you can't then it's an awful idea.

Some years ago, three friends of mine and I looked at building more of a consultancy together, but it never took hold because some of us were more interested in the idea than others. It now looks like one of us is (to quote an agent) "off his game these days" and is struggling with the contracts that he does get - if we'd gone ahead then by this stage we would have ended up carrying him for a while.

Good luck with the business - I hope it does pay off for you, if you pursue that direction.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 17:08
Nah mate, I'm done with the PS. :banana:

:facepalm:

nucastle
16th December 2016, 17:13
There is nothing to stop you doing that. A question I'd ask is why you haven't done that before if you think that it's a good business opportunity to enable you to expand and build that consultancy (or is there a lack of opportunities being advertised that you think will pick up in the near future?).

The danger you face is that you have little to no experience of running a consultancy, which is different from running a one-person business, a lack of track record when the client says "where have you done this before", and the potential to have some one (or more than one) not deliver as much as they promised and you have to pick up the slack. If you can get past that, then it's a great idea and you should do it; if you can't then it's an awful idea.

Some years ago, three friends of mine and I looked at building more of a consultancy together, but it never took hold because some of us were more interested in the idea than others. It now looks like one of us is (to quote an agent) "off his game these days" and is struggling with the contracts that he does get - if we'd gone ahead then by this stage we would have ended up carrying him for a while.

Good luck with the business - I hope it does pay off for you, if you pursue that direction.

Yeah, actually running a consultancy is the difficult part. I'm not about to go doing that quite yet. Besides, a bunch of lone wolf contractors does not a consultancy make (probably). Was interesting to sound out just what opportunities these frameworks supposedly offer.

eek
16th December 2016, 17:15
Yeah, actually running a consultancy is the difficult part. I'm not about to go doing that quite yet. Besides, a bunch of lone wolf contractors does not a consultancy make (probably). Was interesting to sound out just what opportunities these frameworks supposedly offer.

That's easy. You go and look at the historic tenders on the government website and work out what is needed to deliver one and how you would get a start up consultancy ahead of the bigger players - hint in my case it would be existing tools that I own that do at least half the work they require given me a prototype to demo

youngguy
16th December 2016, 17:31
Well that's what I'm getting at.

I'm not looking to 'get around' anything, but looking at it from another perspective which is given most of us ex/current PS contractors know how things work there, then what is to stop a few like minded contractors clubbing together, forming a consultancy, potentially taking on some salaried staff and going to market via one of these frameworks.

If there is some tangible walk out, and the Government attempts to procure outcomes/specialists in the way they 'say' they want to do it (yes, big 'IF') then maybe this is an opportunity.

The other alternatives/workarounds discussed on other threads are completely outside of what I'm suggesting, which on the face of it (not that anyone is giving any details) appear to just be artificial structures attempting to keep PSC contractors doing what they have always done.

I looked into this once.

It needs money upfront, much more effort and actually being a full business with staff and when it came to it, the bunch of people talking to me seemed to think it wasn't gonna be a long hard slog.

It is doable , but I personally decided the risk was too great. Each to their own of course

Gomez
16th December 2016, 18:38
I'm in an interesting position which is totally related to this thread. Currently coming into client via G-Cloud through a micro consultancy that is owned by a friend of mine. Contract between my LTD and friend's LTD has been reviewed by Abbey Tax as being outside IR35. I have clear deliverables and timeframes in the contract. My friend has contacted the client who currently state that they are not considering anything off G-Cloud to be an issue in relation to IR35. I'm hoping that will continue to be the case post April as client wants to place an order for another 6 months work.

My view on this is that it will be worth taking the risk. If client decides that G-Cloud is fair game when it comes to determining status, I will make sure I have done everything to prove that I am outside. Contract review and certificate, use own equipment, work remotely from own office, right of substitution, insurances, etc etc etc. An earlier poster made the key point that IR35 itself hasn't changed.

I've also just applied to get onto DOS framework.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 19:28
I'm in an interesting position which is totally related to this thread. Currently coming into client via G-Cloud through a micro consultancy that is owned by a friend of mine. Contract between my LTD and friend's LTD has been reviewed by Abbey Tax as being outside IR35. I have clear deliverables and timeframes in the contract. My friend has contacted the client who currently state that they are not considering anything off G-Cloud to be an issue in relation to IR35. I'm hoping that will continue to be the case post April as client wants to place an order for another 6 months work.

Nicely worked and does look pretty safe but you haven't mentioned what is being delivered by his consultancy. It might be on GCloud but if it is still delivering personal services directly to the client sitting along side permies etc I can't help but thinking you are going to be caught. The order for 6 months work is the red flag for me. If you had said phase 2 or a new service I would have been OK. The devil is deep in the details of the engagement regardless of your situation LTD to LTD.


My view on this is that it will be worth taking the risk. If client decides that G-Cloud is fair game when it comes to determining status, I will make sure I have done everything to prove that I am outside. Contract review and certificate, use own equipment, work remotely from own office, right of substitution, insurances, etc etc etc. An earlier poster made the key point that IR35 itself hasn't changed.

I've also just applied to get onto DOS framework.

I don't think Gcloud itself will come under scrutiny but the individual contracts could. They've already cleaned out the agencies including the 'consultancy' I was with that was just delivering bodies. If there is a mad rush to Gcloud and people fudging the process I can't help but think it will come under scrutiny. Again looking after yourself won't help if the legislation applies. Contract reviews aren't considered etc. It will be down to the percentage of personal service you offer.

Sounds like you are in a good place but there are enough red flags in that post to make me think you want to be right on top of this and not assuming your are fine IMO.

easy rider
17th December 2016, 14:36
This guy knows how to play the PS

Denial over Scottish government IT project 'conflict' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35832028)

Gomez
19th December 2016, 13:09
Grateful for some perspective on this. I appreciate it.


Nicely worked and does look pretty safe but you haven't mentioned what is being delivered by his consultancy. It might be on GCloud but if it is still delivering personal services directly to the client sitting along side permies etc I can't help but thinking you are going to be caught. The order for 6 months work is the red flag for me. If you had said phase 2 or a new service I would have been OK. The devil is deep in the details of the engagement regardless of your situation LTD to LTD.

What is being delivered are a number of discrete pieces of work across a range of projects. Some of this is follow on work on projects that have been supported over the last 6 months or so. G-Cloud has to be 'bought' on number of days or hours generally. I guess one thing in my favour is that there are no other contractors on site (or permies for that matter) doing what I am doing. I don't think they could refer to my work as BoS.


Sounds like you are in a good place but there are enough red flags in that post to make me think you want to be right on top of this and not assuming your are fine IMO.

I'm not making any assumption I will be fine. What the client say now and what they say come April could be completely different. I'm going to keep a really close eye on things.