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Whorty
13th December 2016, 21:19
Currently recruiting for a SQL developer and spoke to an agency today from our PSL. Talked through a few candidate CVs. As I'm in private sector agent asked if I'd consider someone from the PS (as in the JD I'd stated I need a proactive individual who can work on own initiative .... are PS contractors not renowned for this? I digress ...). I said if they have the right skills, can fit into the team and have the right personality then of course I'd consider a PS.

Anyway, got talking and he said he is inundated with PS contractors jumping ship and looking to get into private sector. He also said, and this was the most interesting, that his agency are now avoiding hiring for the PS until they know what is going to happen next year. They've basically pulled out of the PS sector.

Now they may not be big in the PS, I don't know for sure, but this must be worrying for PS recruiters if the contractors are getting out and the agencies don't want to work with them. Interesting times!

northernladuk
13th December 2016, 21:29
P. S. What is a PS contractor. One that has worked one a PS gig or those that have only ever worked in PS? There is a big difference.

Whorty
13th December 2016, 22:00
P. S. What is a PS contractor. One that has worked one a PS gig or those that have only ever worked in PS? There is a big difference.

Sorry, didn't realise this was such a sore topic for those currently contracting in the PS sector. Not worried the private sector won't want your skills are you? With such a positive attitude and warm personality you'll do well when you come to the private sector :laugh

northernladuk
13th December 2016, 22:03
Sorry, didn't realise this was such a sore topic for those currently contracting in the PS sector.

Dunno. I'll have to find someone that is and ask them.


Not worried the private sector won't want your skills are you? With such a positive attitude and warm personality you'll do well when you come to the private sector :laugh

Nope. My new client seems more than happy thank you.

WTFH
13th December 2016, 22:12
A contractor should be a contractor - that means getting work based on their skills. Part of why contractors get paid what we do is because of a breadth of experience. You are a contractor with a skillset, not a contractor in a business area. Or you're not really a contractor.

It's a bit like when someone says they are a contractor, but will only take jobs within 20 minutes of where they live and are not prepared to travel.

SueEllen
13th December 2016, 22:12
Sorry, didn't realise this was such a sore topic for those currently contracting in the PS sector. Not worried the private sector won't want your skills are you? With such a positive attitude and warm personality you'll do well when you come to the private sector :laugh

:wave:

Explanation is needed as some of us aren't foolish and change sectors regularly.

MrMarkyMark
13th December 2016, 22:25
A contractor should be a contractor - that means getting work based on their skills. Part of why contractors get paid what we do is because of a breadth of experience. You are a contractor with a skillset, not a contractor in a business area. Or you're not really a contractor.

It's a bit like when someone says they are a contractor, but will only take jobs within 20 minutes of where they live and are not prepared to travel.

Yeh, Yeh, whatever....

Whatever is the most lucrative is what works for me :D

jamesbrown
13th December 2016, 23:09
You are a contractor with a skillset, not a contractor in a business area. Or you're not really a contractor.

What a load of bullocks. :laugh Conversely (and equally nonsensically), a contractor who spans several business areas is a low- to mid-level technician, not a proper expert. :D

northernladuk
13th December 2016, 23:19
What a load of bullocks. :laugh Conversely (and equally nonsensically), a contractor who spans several business areas is a low- to mid-level technician, not a proper expert. :D

Yeah but being stuck in PS doesn't make you an expert either.

jamesbrown
13th December 2016, 23:30
Yeah but being stuck in PS doesn't make you an expert either.

Either you're an expert or you're not but, like I said, one stupid generalisation doesn't atone for another. The public sector spans a lot of areas, according to FOI. Universities; millitary intelligence etc. Some poor buggers that probably didn't think they were in the PS are going to find that out pretty soon... :laugh I'm kinda irritated that RBS and Lloyds aren't officially PS. :laugh

WTFH
14th December 2016, 01:53
What a load of bullocks. :laugh Conversely (and equally nonsensically), a contractor who spans several business areas is a low- to mid-level technician, not a proper expert. :D

Sorry, I mean client business areas.
If all you have ever done is 20 years work in banking and a chemical company is looking for a contractor, are they more likely to choose you, or someone who has experience in banking, or someone who has worked in banking, medical and construction - doing the same job but for different client business areas.

20 years working in one client business area may make you an expert in that business area for that type of client, but you're narrowing down your expertise.

sal
14th December 2016, 10:26
What a load of bullocks. :laugh Conversely (and equally nonsensically), a contractor who spans several business areas is a low- to mid-level technician, not a proper expert. :D

Didn't realise that different business areas are using some special versions of hardware and software, making your experience irrelevant to other business areas...

Gotta love the "Financial services experience is a must" at the bottom of the ads, they love to think they are special, while actually running one of the sh&%iest IT infrastructures out there.

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 10:34
Didn't realise that different business areas are using some special versions of hardware and software, making your experience irrelevant to other business areas...

Gotta love the "Financial services experience is a must" at the bottom of the ads, they love to think they are special, while actually running one of the sh&%iest IT infrastructures out there.

Which is why you need FS experience :D.

I have contracted in the following fields:-

Worldwide News Agency
Large ISP
Large Telecoms provider
Online gambling
Software Consultancy
Management Consultancies
Transport
Retail Banking
Investment Banks

The same primary technical skill set, as a product specialist, in all of those.

LondonManc
14th December 2016, 10:42
Which is why you need FS experience :D.

I have contracted in the following fields:-

Worldwide News Agency
Large ISP
Large Telecoms provider
Online gambling
Software Consultancy
Management Consultancies
Transport
Retail Banking
Investment Banks

The same primary technical skill set, as a product specialist, in all of those.

Contractors should either be product specialists or area specialists. If you're a product specialist in a niche market, then there's a limited market out there for you unless the rates are great and there's little competition.

I'm similar to you in so far as technical specialist with cross-industry experience. Helps when there's a downturn in certain sectors but not others.

jamesbrown
14th December 2016, 10:49
20 years working in one client business area may make you an expert in that business area for that type of client, but you're narrowing down your expertise.

The only generalisation I'd make about contractors who have been around for a while is that they're all pretty thick skinned and mercinary buggers. They do what pays the most, for the least effort :D Enjoying the work is a bonus.

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 10:51
The only generalisation I'd make about contractors who have been around for a while is that they're all pretty thick skinned and mercinary buggers. They do what pays the most, for the least effort :D Enjoying the work is a bonus.


You rang :smokin

eek
14th December 2016, 10:51
The only generalisation I'd make about contractors who have been around for a while is that they're all pretty thick skinned and mercinary buggers. They do what pays the most, for the least effort :D Enjoying the work is a bonus.

No thanks. I always take slightly less money for more interesting work and to ensure I have somewhere else to move on to....

As for effort - you mean you want me to actually do some work - next....

ladymuck
14th December 2016, 10:53
Either you're an expert or you're not but, like I said, one stupid generalisation doesn't atone for another. The public sector spans a lot of areas, according to FOI. Universities; millitary intelligence etc. Some poor buggers that probably didn't think they were in the PS are going to find that out pretty soon... :laugh I'm kinda irritated that RBS and Lloyds aren't officially PS. :laugh

Yep...current gig (finishes next week thankfully) is at a University and I only realised this week that it's considered PS. That's two PS gigs I have on my CV now, the last one being in 2005. Does that make me a PS contractor? :emb

jamesbrown
14th December 2016, 10:54
Didn't realise that different business areas are using some special versions of hardware and software, making your experience irrelevant to other business areas....

Hardware and software? Since when did contracting become synonymous with IT contracting? If you're selling your engineering, mathematical, scientific, legal, medical etc. skills in a specialist area, you and your clients probably don't give a feck about hardware or software, as it's just a tool for a job.

northernladuk
14th December 2016, 10:54
Didn't realise that different business areas are using some special versions of hardware and software, making your experience irrelevant to other business areas...

Gotta love the "Financial services experience is a must" at the bottom of the ads, they love to think they are special, while actually running one of the sh&%iest IT infrastructures out there.

It's not really down to the applications, it's understanding the client, their business and their market. I've worked on a global deployment for a massive pharma, went PS for a gig and back on a global deployment. The PS gig has added very little to me to help me get the global gig. No way would someone that's only got years of small gov work be able to jump in to a large complex business model. In one gig I own it all, the next each element has dedicated teams. That is why they want the experience.

There is also the business culture. A pure PS contractor simply will not understand an investment banking culture where every pound spent most return 1.50 or it gets canned. Your bum on seat permatractor will not be able to deliver.

jamesbrown
14th December 2016, 10:55
No thanks. I always take slightly less money for more interesting work and to ensure I have somewhere else to move on to....

As for effort - you mean you want me to actually do some work - next....

:laugh Slightly less. Indeed. Now to your PM....:D

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 10:59
It's not really down to the applications, it's understanding the client, their business and their market. I've worked on a global deployment for a massive pharma, went PS for a gig and back on a global deployment. The PS gig has added very little to me to help me get the global gig. No way would someone that's only got years of small gov work be able to jump in to a large complex business model. In one gig I own it all, the next each element has dedicated teams. That is why they want the experience.

There is also the business culture. A pure PS contractor simply will not understand an investment banking culture where every pound spent most return 1.50 or it gets canned. Your bum on seat permatractor will not be able to deliver.

Widely held incorrect view, especially in past years gone.

Agreed it is getting more the case now, still the amount of wastage and idiocy I have seen in IB, in the past, is really quite staggering.
And I'm talking about 100's of millions.

northernladuk
14th December 2016, 11:00
Widely held incorrect view, especially in past years gone.

Agreed it is getting more the case now, still the amount of wastage and idiocy I have seen in IB, in the past, is really quite staggering.
And I'm talking about 100's of millions.

Indeed and am sure there are plenty of people that have made the transition. It's a generalisation to try make the point why clients look for previous experience and why it's important to them.

Agent
14th December 2016, 11:04
In answer to your question, yes we're avoiding hiring from the PS. But this has always been the case (for our private sector clients), it's not new.

There is the perception that a career PS contractor won't transition well into private sector and with the market as it is, clients don't need to risk it so why would they.

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 11:05
Indeed and am sure there are plenty of people that have made the transition. It's a generalisation to try make the point why clients look for previous experience and why it's important to them.

As far as working on something Global, large scale, where you own and run the show and I have done just the same, is the energy and balls required for such roles.

Sometimes, in my line, the roles also don't pay much more.
Still, might take one again next time around, as if you can show past experience and success you can jump back in, as you have.

NotAllThere
14th December 2016, 11:09
Didn't realise that different business areas are using some special versions of hardware and software, making your experience irrelevant to other business areas...

Gotta love the "Financial services experience is a must" at the bottom of the ads, they love to think they are special, while actually running one of the sh&%iest IT infrastructures out there.To get into one my current clients it's almost essential that you've already worked for them.


The only generalisation I'd make about contractors who have been around for a while is that they're all pretty thick skinned and mercenary buggers. They do what pays the most, for the least effort :D Enjoying the work is a bonus.:wave:

SueEllen
14th December 2016, 11:10
Yep...current gig (finishes next week thankfully) is at a University and I only realised this week that it's considered PS. That's two PS gigs I have on my CV now, the last one being in 2005. Does that make me a PS contractor? :emb

Yeah a career one. :D

I've done 3 PS gigs.

malvolio
14th December 2016, 12:06
Widely held incorrect view, especially in past years gone.

Agreed it is getting more the case now, still the amount of wastage and idiocy I have seen in IB, in the past, is really quite staggering.
And I'm talking about 100's of millions.
The natural consequence of only hiring fro a small gene pool, and so recycling old ideas rather than seeing new ones.

Exact same issue with SC-cleared contracts, come to that. With much the same results:wink

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 12:17
The natural consequence of only hiring fro a small gene pool, and so recycling old ideas rather than seeing new ones.

Exact same issue with SC-cleared contracts, come to that. With much the same results:wink

Yep, they wouldn't even look at me until I was recommended into an IB, just for 3 monther.

Once I was, in a large percentage of previous no gos, the doors were suddenly wide open :rolleyes:

bobspud
14th December 2016, 13:21
In answer to your question, yes we're avoiding hiring from the PS. But this has always been the case (for our private sector clients), it's not new.

There is the perception that a career PS contractor won't transition well into private sector and with the market as it is, clients don't need to risk it so why would they.

It works both ways. Ex bankers never do well in public contracts. They are far too desperate to JFDI rather than take their time to understand matters and work through the process.

I bounce in and out of Public Sector roles as I see fit and I would say that the PS guys are far better at architecture than most of the private sector clients these days.

Major Hassle
14th December 2016, 13:47
It works both ways. Ex bankers never do well in public contracts. They are far too desperate to JFDI rather than take their time to understand matters and work through the process.

I bounce in and out of Public Sector roles as I see fit and I would say that the PS guys are far better at over architecting than most of the private sector clients these days.

FTFY

eek
14th December 2016, 13:51
FTFY

Architecture is a fine line though. Personally I would prefer over engineered to the typical sticky back plastic approach I see elsewhere....

Major Hassle
14th December 2016, 13:55
Architecture is a fine line though. Personally I would prefer over engineered to the typical sticky back plastic approach I see elsewhere....

Over engineered means generally late, too expensive and not flexible enough to meet the business need for speed to market. Constant struggle....

SueEllen
14th December 2016, 15:09
Over engineered means generally late, too expensive and not flexible enough to meet the business need for speed to market. Constant struggle....

PS mainly doesn't have speed to market. They mainly have working until hardware/software is obsolete.

bobspud
14th December 2016, 15:41
Over engineered means generally late, too expensive and not flexible enough to meet the business need for speed to market. Constant struggle....

No it doesn't

Those symptoms come from failing to plan properly, assuming you can bypass procurement rules or process and letting senior stake holders set your projects delivery goals despite common sense and facts on the ground.

Major Hassle
14th December 2016, 15:54
No it doesn't

Those symptoms come from failing to plan properly, assuming you can bypass procurement rules or process and letting senior stake holders set your projects delivery goals despite common sense and facts on the ground.

LOL don't you just love this purist blue sky crap - welcome to the real world

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 16:00
LOL don't you just love this purist blue sky crap - welcome to the real world

It can be that way though, depends on what you actually manage and own, providing you are any good in the first place, of course.

I agree 90% of the time it isn't like that though.

perplexed
14th December 2016, 18:13
Averaging 5 calls a day the past two weeks with regards to public sector roles - same place for the most part. I know they'll not fill them.

I assume either they'll end up recruiting plenty of fresh faced idealistic ( till reality beats them to a pulp ) grads as permies, outsource to an Indian IT company or more probably, pressure HR to agree to their view that key contractors are in fact outside based upon the information they've put into whatever tool emerges because otherwise a hell of a lot of arses will get kicked when the projects fail as contractors leave en masse.

Semtex
14th December 2016, 18:26
so this thread which had a catch title turned into a waste of 5 mins trawling through.

I think people are missing the elephant in the room here.

PS will offer quite a few opportunities for contractors seeing as many are jumping ship.

I don't buy the notion that decent contractors will not be interested. Contractors go where the money/opportunities are... Yes it may look as though the best money may be had in the Private sector, but watch the rates decline as more bodies competing.

Supply and Demand!

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 18:30
so this thread which had a catch title turned into a waste of 5 mins trawling through.

I think people are missing the elephant in the room here.

PS will offer quite a few opportunities for contractors seeing as many are jumping ship.

I don't buy the notion that decent contractors will not be interested. Contractors go where the money/opportunities are... Yes it may look as though the best money may be had in the Private sector, but watch the rates decline as more bodies competing.

Supply and Demand!

Good Luck :yay:


Contractors go where the money/opportunities are...

They do indeed, its called the "bottom line"

Semtex
14th December 2016, 18:37
Good Luck :yay: - With What?



They do indeed, its called the "bottom line" -explain?

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 18:41
-explain?

Earning good money in the public sector, given what arrangements / frameworks are going to be available to work through?

Or, do you know something I don't?

Depending on what you do it could be a possibility / opportunity, as long as they make it worth your while.

Semtex
14th December 2016, 18:46
Earning good money in the public sector, given what arrangements / frameworks are going to be available to work through?

Or, do you know something I don't?

Depending on what you do it could be a possibility / opportunity, as long as they make it worth your while.

My point is £400 Private outside IR35 or £550 Public sector inside IR35 equate to same 'bottom line'. Private Sector 'Market Rates' will suffer as there will be an abundance of Contractors, unless you are very niche

The supply and demand principle is simple, how will the PS employers get resources? Permies ? not really the budget or appetite there at the mo. Contractors, smaller pool of resources = need to pay higher rates

there will be a lot of questions answered over the next few months but it will be interesting

northernladuk
14th December 2016, 18:51
PS will have to be an utter shambles before they start bending to supply and demand. It's public money they are spending so don't bend to market forces like private sector do. Look at the permie wages for example.

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 18:56
My point is £400 Private outside IR35 or £550 Public sector inside IR35 equate to same 'bottom line'. Private Sector 'Market Rates' will suffer as there will be an abundance of Contractors, unless you are very niche

The supply and demand principle is simple, how will the PS employers get resources? Permies ? not really the budget or appetite there at the mo. Contractors, smaller pool of resources = need to pay higher rates

there will be a lot of questions answered over the next few months but it will be interesting

OK, now I have seen your companies road map, I say "Good Luck", just as before :yay:

Semtex
14th December 2016, 18:59
OK, now I have seen your companies road map, I say "Good Luck", just as before :yay:

You are not making any points just wishing me good luck? Either you are extremely friendly or not really getting it? Either way have a nice evening (me being nice as well) :smile

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 19:02
You are not making any points just wishing me good luck? Either you are extremely friendly or not really getting it? Either way have a nice evening (me being nice as well) :smile


OK, I will be blunt :smile.

Depending on what you do, I believe your outlook on this is extremely optimistic at best.

I hope you have a nice evening, also.

Andy Hallett
14th December 2016, 19:26
Personally I am seeing this as an opportunity. Projects still need doing and public services still need to run.

Major Hassle
14th December 2016, 19:35
Personally I am seeing this as an opportunity. Projects still need doing and public services still need to run.

Very true. In the midst of chaos there is also opportunity

northernladuk
14th December 2016, 19:43
Personally I am seeing this as an opportunity. Projects still need doing and public services still need to run.

Completely agree with this ultimately but I'm guessing there will be some hard work needed to find and use them. Working from home and trying to convince yourself you are a 'Janice', sticking yourself on Digital Specialists won't cut it IMO.

MrMarkyMark
14th December 2016, 19:52
Completely agree with this ultimately but I'm guessing there will be some hard work needed to find and use them. Working from home and trying to convince yourself you are a 'Janice', sticking yourself on Digital Specialists won't cut it IMO.

There's actually a few on here that would have no problem pulling that off (If you will excuse the term ) :D

NotAllThere
14th December 2016, 19:54
PS will have to be an utter shambles...You mean it isn't now already? :eek:

northernladuk
14th December 2016, 19:58
You mean it isn't now already? :eek:

Well there is that lol.

Whorty
14th December 2016, 21:15
so this thread which had a catch title turned into a waste of 5 mins trawling through.

I think people are missing the elephant in the room here.

PS will offer quite a few opportunities for contractors seeing as many are jumping ship.

I don't buy the notion that decent contractors will not be interested. Contractors go where the money/opportunities are... Yes it may look as though the best money may be had in the Private sector, but watch the rates decline as more bodies competing.

Supply and Demand!

Thanks :D

I actually agree with you though, if the rates after any tax hits are still good, contractors will still do the work. This will require a rate rise but I don't know if the PS clients will swallow that.

TBH I only started the thread to report a conversation I'd had with an agency, and I hadn't noticed anyone else say the exact same thing; yes we hear that contractors in the PS will want to come over to private sector, but will the private sector want them? Those embedded in PS culture may struggle to prove they can hack it in the private sector.

northernladuk
14th December 2016, 22:10
Whorty. Do you work in the PS?

barrydidit
15th December 2016, 08:31
Personally I am seeing this as an opportunity. Projects still need doing and public services still need to run.


Very true. In the midst of chaos there is also opportunity

Who knows, I would expect that the oft mentioned 'skills shortage' will mean that opportunity passes to those who will do the needful on the cheap.


Completely agree with this ultimately but I'm guessing there will be some hard work needed to find and use them. Working from home and trying to convince yourself you are a 'Janice', sticking yourself on Digital Specialists won't cut it IMO.

I thought it was fine if you closed the curtains :emb

MrMarkyMark
15th December 2016, 08:36
FTFY



I thought it was fine if you closed the easy clean curtains :emb

eek
15th December 2016, 08:45
Who knows, I would expect that the oft mentioned 'skills shortage' will mean that opportunity passes to those who will do the needful on the cheap.


I'm tempted to suggest that any public sector contractors unable to find work in April should sign on for the 6-12 months of contribuation based benefits you can get. But I really don't want NLUK insulting me for going all psychocandy

Antman
15th December 2016, 08:49
I think that PS rates not being subject to market forces is off the mark. I remember looking for a permie role and PS were paying more than private at the time.

eek
15th December 2016, 09:49
I think that PS rates not being subject to market forces is off the mark. I remember looking for a permie role and PS were paying more than private at the time.

On this contract clientco were surprised every potential contractor came in at the same rate.

Even though I've spent x months telling them they still can't grasp that when you set the rate every agents just sends people through at that rate and that most of them (being useless and tulip) were previously on less.

I then pointed out that I was usually on (a fair whack) more but took it because of the challenge and the pile of customizations I could write to fix their problems and then sell elsewhere....

nucastle
15th December 2016, 10:05
Completely agree with this ultimately but I'm guessing there will be some hard work needed to find and use them. Working from home and trying to convince yourself you are a 'Janice', sticking yourself on Digital Specialists won't cut it IMO.

Well if you are billing yourself out at the rates that agencies or other intermediaries in the chain were billing BOS out at, then working that way under IR35 might even be more lucrative.

northernladuk
15th December 2016, 10:06
Indeed. I was on a decent rate at my PS gig but I don't think that is anything to do with market forces. Just looking at the rates they pay permies would be evidence of that. Not my position but they were looking for SEO's to replace 500 quid a day contractor at 36k a year.

LondonManc
15th December 2016, 10:12
PS has never had any problem shafting itself with consultants but gets all pissy about contractors. Sounds just like the private sector when you think about it!

Can see more opportunities for good rates in PS via a consultancy than through an agent direct to client. They'll take the hit on a low margin with a couple of contractors to body shop a few graduates through with you.

SueEllen
15th December 2016, 10:16
Indeed. I was on a decent rate at my PS gig but I don't think that is anything to do with market forces. Just looking at the rates they pay permies would be evidence of that. Not my position but they were looking for SEO's to replace 500 quid a day contractor at 36k a year.

One word - PENSION

I was looking at permie salaries at one of my PS clients then looking at what they paid in pension contributions depending on your salary it varied from around 16-24%.

And for someone who retires around 60 and lives until they are 90 that isn't enough. Granted some public sector bods die earlier but the people in those types of jobs e.g. manual ones, are either retired or approaching it as those jobs are the ones they contracted out.

northernladuk
15th December 2016, 10:21
OK I'll give you that. I know nothing about the permie side. Still can't help thinking 16-24% of ****all wage doesn't sound that attractive but no idea about permie land anymore.

eek
15th December 2016, 10:25
OK I'll give you that. I know nothing about the permie side. Still can't help thinking 16-24% of ****all wage doesn't sound that attractive but no idea about permie land anymore.

Its the fact its another 16-24% added to employment costs that make those wages so unattractive....

SueEllen
15th December 2016, 10:31
OK I'll give you that. I know nothing about the permie side. Still can't help thinking 16-24% of ****all wage doesn't sound that attractive but no idea about permie land anymore.

PS tend to pay under local wage rates for roles but claim the pension makes up for it.

At the PS clients I've worked for it I calculated it didn't as they were still under paying. One got round it by adding on a special allowance for IT roles however they still couldn't get candidates as some of the larger multi-nationals in the area were paying London salaries for the same skills.

nucastle
15th December 2016, 10:39
The digital allowance is not included in your pension.

Up here the senior developers are on 30k odd, and then 10-20k allowance on top of that to get them up to a decent salary. That digital allowance is reviewed periodically and can be removed as and when.

SueEllen
15th December 2016, 10:43
The digital allowance is not included in your pension.

Up here the senior developers are on 30k odd, and then 10-20k allowance on top of that to get them up to a decent salary. That digital allowance is reviewed periodically and can be removed as and when.

Which is why people decided to work for the multi-nationals instead.

What was more amusing they were training up people but hadn't made them sign a contract to prevent them leaving immediately they were trained...

gables
15th December 2016, 11:16
Where I am two roles for Technical Architects have been advertised; one paid £46,424-£55,275, the other £55,928-£66,990 both roles get an extra £4k IT supplement, you start on the bottom of the range but each year go up an increment reaching the top in 4 years.

On the pension side of things my 'pot' from working at local authority for 6.5 years is £67k, I don't have my payslips to hand to see what my contribution was, but it wasn't very much in the region of 120 quid or so. I think it's going to yield £4k a year but I could be misreading that.

malvolio
15th December 2016, 11:45
Where I am two roles for Technical Architects have been advertised; one paid £46,424-£55,275, the other £55,928-£66,990 both roles get an extra £4k IT supplement, you start on the bottom of the range but each year go up an increment reaching the top in 4 years.

On the pension side of things my 'pot' from working at local authority for 6.5 years is £67k, I don't have my payslips to hand to see what my contribution was, but it wasn't very much in the region of 120 quid or so. I think it's going to yield £4k a year but I could be misreading that.
You may be disappointed. A quarter of a million will give you around £7k a year If properly invested without touching the capital, before tax. Considerably less via an annuity.

gables
15th December 2016, 11:52
You may be disappointed. A quarter of a million will give you around £7k a year If properly invested without touching the capital, before tax. Considerably less via an annuity.

That's why I keep looking at the annual statement as it appears to me to say a yearly pension of 4k. I'll dig it out tonight and look again.

Fred Bloggs
15th December 2016, 11:53
You may be disappointed. A quarter of a million will give you around £7k a year If properly invested without touching the capital, before tax. Considerably less via an annuity.
it is likely the "pot" is a deferred DB pension from the PS anyway so a drawdown rate or annuity is irrelevant in that case.

Fred Bloggs
15th December 2016, 11:55
That's why I keep looking at the annual statement as it appears to me to say a yearly pension of 4k. I'll dig it out tonight and look again.
If the "pot" is a deferred PS final salary pension, file it away and forget all about it till you retire.

malvolio
15th December 2016, 11:56
That's why I keep looking at the annual statement as it appears to me to say a yearly pension of 4k. I'll dig it out tonight and look again.
It may do, it depends on the actual original contract, especially if it predates the pensions liberation. I have a small income from a fund I bought years ago when leaving a permanent role. The fund total was a few tens of thousands, but they had promised a pension of £x a month for life which the fund would have supported for about three years. I took their offer.

Lance
15th December 2016, 13:05
If the "pot" is a deferred PS final salary pension, file it away and forget all about it till you retire.

in general this is true..... However there are now some emerging opportunities for people with defined benefits pensions to sell them (as they are worth a lot more now than they are likely to be in the future, due to QE and other things). This is quite new and something I heard about from the Radio4 money man (Paul Lewis). So treat with caution as there are likely to be scams around it.

Andy Hallett
15th December 2016, 13:46
Completely agree with this ultimately but I'm guessing there will be some hard work needed to find and use them. Working from home and trying to convince yourself you are a 'Janice', sticking yourself on Digital Specialists won't cut it IMO.

You only need your end client to be convinced you are Janice.

Andy Hallett
15th December 2016, 13:48
One word - PENSION

I was looking at permie salaries at one of my PS clients then looking at what they paid in pension contributions depending on your salary it varied from around 16-24%.

And for someone who retires around 60 and lives until they are 90 that isn't enough. Granted some public sector bods die earlier but the people in those types of jobs e.g. manual ones, are either retired or approaching it as those jobs are the ones they contracted out.

Did someone say AWR? Contractors must as a minimum have same all in pay and benefits as a permie.....

northernladuk
15th December 2016, 13:52
Did someone say AWR? Contractors must as a minimum have same all in pay and benefits as a permit.....

I'm OK. I opted out of that before I started :D

northernladuk
15th December 2016, 14:11
You only need your end client to be convinced you are Janice.

Absolutely but if the contractor doesn't understand what they are to their client I can't see how they can start to convince their client of anything. Getting it all wrong in front of their client isn't going to make them look very good.

eek
15th December 2016, 14:34
I'm OK. I opted out of that before I started :D

More fool you.... I've never understood what a contractor really gains from opting out bar a less hideous contract...

Andy Hallett
15th December 2016, 14:55
I suspect you are all confusing AWR with the Agency Conduct Regs.

northernladuk
15th December 2016, 14:57
I suspect you are all confusing AWR with the Agency Conduct Regs.

I'm not. I was being tongue in cheek as we get asked that alot. Eek on the other hand....... :laugh

Andy Hallett
15th December 2016, 15:01
More fool you.... I've never understood what a contractor really gains from opting out bar a less hideous contract...

I think opting out will give a better 'outside' score when doing the digital service assessment.

One of the questions, and I paraphrase is, "are you paid even if the work isn't correct"? As you know, not opting out means you are covered by the regulations, giving you a right to paid for time you have worked, irrespective of quality of work.

eek
15th December 2016, 15:03
I think opting out will give a better 'outside' score when doing the digital service assessment.

One of the questions, and I paraphrase is, "are you paid even if the work isn't correct"? As you know, not opting out means you are covered by the regulations, giving you a right to paid for time you have worked, irrespective of quality of work.

True but my concern has usually been the finances of the end client the agency is recruiting for and given that I don't know the client before having to decide whether to opt in or opt out (thinking of some agencies in particular, not yours) I prefer to go safety first...

Oh and my stuff is always correct - as I'm not a cowboy.....

SussexSeagull
15th December 2016, 15:12
Certainly true the public sector doesn't respond to market pressures with rates, or if it does it is very delayed.

I remember when I first got into contracting public sector contracts tended to be higher paid than private sector ones and through the problems in 08 and 09 were a damm site more secure. That said the ex-public sector contractors I have worked with had working practices so far inside IR35 they would have needed a map and compass to get out again.

northernladuk
15th December 2016, 15:18
so far inside IR35 they would have needed a map and compass to get out again.

Or just follow PC :D

youngguy
15th December 2016, 17:25
I think opting out will give a better 'outside' score when doing the digital service assessment.

One of the questions, and I paraphrase is, "are you paid even if the work isn't correct"? As you know, not opting out means you are covered by the regulations, giving you a right to paid for time you have worked, irrespective of quality of work.

This almost reminds me of the old BETs which said something like 'if you have ever not been paid you are def a business '. (Oh the madness)

Whorty
15th December 2016, 21:19
Whorty. Do you work in the PS?

Nope. Private sector. When I worked for big 4 consulting I did some central gov projects. That was enough for me.

sal
16th December 2016, 09:16
Certainly true the public sector doesn't respond to market pressures with rates, or if it does it is very delayed.

I remember when I first got into contracting public sector contracts tended to be higher paid than private sector ones and through the problems in 08 and 09 were a damm site more secure. That said the ex-public sector contractors I have worked with had working practices so far inside IR35 they would have needed a map and compass to get out again.

It's a bit silly to put the whole PS in the same boat. Although generally true, i know of some PS clients that are rather flexible on rates, know what they want and are prepared to pay for it.

The panic is starting to rise and i'm getting an increased volume of calls for PS contracts on good rates, over the otherwise quiet time of the year.

bobspud
16th December 2016, 11:37
It's a bit silly to put the whole PS in the same boat. Although generally true, i know of some PS clients that are rather flexible on rates, know what they want and are prepared to pay for it.

The panic is starting to rise and i'm getting an increased volume of calls for PS contracts on good rates, over the otherwise quiet time of the year.

This :) interestingly I am also seeing private sector clients trying to entice me out of public sector roles. The rates have not been shabby at all and I am already on a fair wedge.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 12:34
This :) interestingly I am also seeing private sector clients trying to entice me out of public sector roles. The rates have not been shabby at all and I am already on a fair wedge.

I don't believe that's what is happening. I very much doubt they are trying to entice you out.

If you mean roles are appearing as usual and they are looking more attractive to you then fair enough.

SueEllen
16th December 2016, 13:04
I don't believe that's what is happening. I very much doubt they are trying to entice you out.

If you mean roles are appearing as usual and they are looking more attractive to you then fair enough.

Yeah because everyone has the same skill set as you.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 13:15
Yeah because everyone has the same skill set as you.

Que?

MrMarkyMark
16th December 2016, 13:20
Yeah because everyone has the same skill set as you.

I thought everyone did, I have always considered him some kind of, bob a job, jack of all trades :D

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 13:25
I thought everyone did, I have always considered him some kind of, bob a job, jack of all trades :D

If I can invoice for it I'll do it!

jamesbrown
16th December 2016, 13:43
If I can invoice for it I'll do it!

northernladyuk concurs.

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 13:44
northernladyuk concurs.

I learnt from the best.

jamesbrown
16th December 2016, 13:45
I learnt from the best.

She is pretty good, tbf.

LondonManc
16th December 2016, 13:47
This :) interestingly I am also seeing private sector clients trying to entice me out of public sector roles. The rates have not been shabby at all and I am already on a fair wedge.

No different to enticing bobs out of India. US and U.K. Corps will cherry pick the best and leave the dross for the outsourcers to manage. Sorry to break that to you. :tongue

northernladuk
16th December 2016, 14:27
She is pretty good, tbf.

Indeed. Unlike your ability to settle up your tab she says.

jamesbrown
16th December 2016, 15:03
Indeed. Unlike your ability to settle up your tab she says.

I'm holding out for a PS gig; I hear the rates are going to skyrocket. This time next year, Rodders.... northernladyuk is going to be a millionaire.