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original PM
2nd February 2017, 08:00
So serious question.

Daughters school re organising a trip to Dubai for the netball team.

Missus is very against her going due to popular media representations of how women are treated in Dubai.

Does she have a point or not?

I have done some research and seems there is a thriving netball club scene over there so.....

Anyone get anything sensible to offer?

Halo Jones
2nd February 2017, 08:11
Well first up – does your Daughter want to go?

Think of it as educational

Your Daughter may see that she lives in a (mostly) tolerant society
Your Wife may learn that popular media representations are not necessarily true
The kids she interacts with may see that there are different ways to live
All percipients may learn the world is a varied place & that there is no one true way.
Schools are paranoid on kids safety (rightly so) & will only be taking them to reputable places.
Have a chat with your kid & say it’s a different culture, be sensible, but learn.

northernladuk
2nd February 2017, 08:24
I'd be switching it around and making her go. Some of the best memories and learning experiences I had as a kid was going away with school. Back in my day it was outdoors stuff and a ski trip and the world has moved on now. It's character building and shows them how big the world out there. The fact they do have such a culture that your wife is upset about is a reason to go. Let her see it for herself, not judge it from afar and have opinions based on parents. I'd never dream of holding back my kids because of my opinions. That's not fair on the kids. Your wife might have a valid opinion but it's hers hers alone. Let your daughter see it and form her own.

There is a massive expat community so am sure it's very popular and and the facilities are very good so that won't be a problem..

I never get why groups have to travel so far though to be honest. Schools trips to the Caribbean and the like. Just sounds like the organisers are more interested in going where they want to go rather than getting any real netball value out of. I'm sure there are plenty of clubs and quality in Europe in some fantastic locations... But hey ho.

original PM
2nd February 2017, 08:35
Well first up – does your Daughter want to go?

Think of it as educational

Your Daughter may see that she lives in a (mostly) tolerant society
Your Wife may learn that popular media representations are not necessarily true
The kids she interacts with may see that there are different ways to live
All percipients may learn the world is a varied place & that there is no one true way.
Schools are paranoid on kids safety (rightly so) & will only be taking them to reputable places.
Have a chat with your kid & say it’s a different culture, be sensible, but learn.

She does want to go - and is getting quite upset that we have not said yes.

I understand about the culture - however will she really get any real culture out their as I am not sure a 14 year old white girl in a gym kit is going to be allowed to wander the streets.

And while they need to be careful the missus' concern - a simple mistake such as not putting on the right clothing when leaving the hotel (anyone with kids will know how giddy they get) could lead to serious consequences - or maybe not?

So my concern is that they will see very little and just be locked in 'western enclaves' and never actually experience the culture.

And as NLUK says why go so far for that - surely a trip to Germany/Italy/France/Holland who all have thriving netball leagues would be a better option.

Or is this all just small town England paranoia?

northernladuk
2nd February 2017, 09:14
She does want to go - and is getting quite upset that we have not said yes.

I understand about the culture - however will she really get any real culture out their as I am not sure a 14 year old white girl in a gym kit is going to be allowed to wander the streets.

And while they need to be careful the missus' concern - a simple mistake such as not putting on the right clothing when leaving the hotel (anyone with kids will know how giddy they get) could lead to serious consequences - or maybe not?

So my concern is that they will see very little and just be locked in 'western enclaves' and never actually experience the culture.

And as NLUK says why go so far for that - surely a trip to Germany/Italy/France/Holland who all have thriving netball leagues would be a better option.

Or is this all just small town England paranoia?

I guess you've never been to Dubai? It's a fantastic place. Some many of the 'biggest in the world' things to see. It's quite eye popping. They are working towards tourism being the biggest draw for when the oil runs out so the are very accommodating of the western culture. All you have to do is be respectful and keep to some fairly simple rules. Learning about those rules is all part of the learning the culture out there even if you don't strictly follow it. Just reading the guides on what not to do, respectful dressing is all part of the learning. A properly organised group shouldn't encounter any problems IMO.

Thinking about it more since I replied I would certainly be writing a stern letter to the school whatever your final decision is. For the points you've made about their age and mentality and the cost etc you just don't need to go to Dubai. It smacks of someone being selfish and going for their own reasons.

I'm glad I'm just giving my thoughts and not being in your shoes not having to make a decision so easy for me to say but I'd still say let her go.

How will the cost compare to this Leeds school taking 10 year olds to Barbados?

Julia Hartley-Brewer's outrage as school plans £1,650 sports trip to Barbados | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3117958/Angry-mother-Julia-Hartley-Brewer-s-outrage-Yorkshire-academy-plans-1-650-sports-outing-Barbados.html)

VectraMan
2nd February 2017, 09:26
I imagine when all her friends are telling her about the great time they had in Dubai she'll be really glad that Mum and Dad got all hysterical about some nonsense they read in The Daily Mail and prevented her from going.

fullyautomatix
2nd February 2017, 09:28
Most of these trips are just teachers wanting a good holiday paid for by the hapless parents. They are dreaming up some exotic locales, aren't they ? The mind boggles. If I wanted my child to go and engage in some competitive sport tournament, Dubai would be the last destination on my mind, except maybe beach volleyball, even that played with a hijab on, I digress.

MrMarkyMark
2nd February 2017, 09:32
Most of these trips are just teachers wanting a good holiday paid for by the hapless parents. They are dreaming up some exotic locales, aren't they ? The mind boggles. If I wanted my child to go and engage in some competitive sport tournament, Dubai would be the last destination on my mind, except maybe beach volleyball, even that played with a hijab on, I digress.

Just as well, as no one is inviting you, you boring sockie chunt :laugh

sasguru
2nd February 2017, 09:33
Dubai is safe enough, plenty of things to see, but a cultural wasteland.
I found it quite dull after a couple of days.
For a kid though, they'll really appreciate the difference.
It's a no brainer, let her go.

sasguru
2nd February 2017, 09:34
Or is this all just small town England paranoia?

Yup.

LondonManc
2nd February 2017, 09:37
Dubai is safe enough, plenty of things to see, but a cultural wasteland.
I found it quite dull after a couple of days.
For a kid though, they'll really appreciate the difference.
It's a no brainer, let her go.

Wow, it must be dull then, given you could bore the hind legs off a donkey.

BlasterBates
2nd February 2017, 09:39
...absolutely go go go :D

fullyautomatix
2nd February 2017, 09:39
Just as well, as no one is inviting you, you boring sockie chunt :laugh

You do have nothing much to say on these forums apart from throwing random insults at others, isn't it?

MrMarkyMark
2nd February 2017, 09:41
You do have nothing much to say on these forums apart from throwing random insults at others, isn't it?


Hardly random, directed at one of the dullest bell ends on the forum.

Your English is terrible, where did you learn it Bangalore?

So richly deserved :laugh

LondonManc
2nd February 2017, 09:41
So serious question.

Daughters school re organising a trip to Dubai for the netball team.

Missus is very against her going due to popular media representations of how women are treated in Dubai.

Does she have a point or not?

I have done some research and seems there is a thriving netball club scene over there so.....

Anyone get anything sensible to offer?

Do some proper research rather than the press.

Dubai Netball League - Social and competitive netball in Dubai, UAE (http://dubainetballleague.com/)

I'm sure the girls will receive cultural guidance on how to dress away from the netball matches.

northernladuk
2nd February 2017, 09:42
You do have nothing much to say on these forums apart from throwing random insults at others, isn't it?

Dunno about random. That one did appear pretty target and direct. :D

original PM
2nd February 2017, 09:43
I guess you've never been to Dubai? It's a fantastic place. Some many of the 'biggest in the world' things to see. It's quite eye popping. They are working towards tourism being the biggest draw for when the oil runs out so the are very accommodating of the western culture. All you have to do is be respectful and keep to some fairly simple rules. Learning about those rules is all part of the learning the culture out there even if you don't strictly follow it. Just reading the guides on what not to do, respectful dressing is all part of the learning. A properly organised group shouldn't encounter any problems IMO.

Thinking about it more since I replied I would certainly be writing a stern letter to the school whatever your final decision is. For the points you've made about their age and mentality and the cost etc you just don't need to go to Dubai. It smacks of someone being selfish and going for their own reasons.

I'm glad I'm just giving my thoughts and not being in your shoes not having to make a decision so easy for me to say but I'd still say let her go.

How will the cost compare to this Leeds school taking 10 year olds to Barbados?

Julia Hartley-Brewer's outrage as school plans £1,650 sports trip to Barbados | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3117958/Angry-mother-Julia-Hartley-Brewer-s-outrage-Yorkshire-academy-plans-1-650-sports-outing-Barbados.html)

Cost is going to be about £1650 so comparable

And also me n the missus had that conversation re the teacher just wanting a jolly.

Also while money is not the issue in that we have plenty - we do not like to be frivolous - for example we are doing a bit of Eurocamp this summer - and it is going to cost about the same as that.

Cheers everyone!

LondonManc
2nd February 2017, 09:43
Dunno about random. That one did appear pretty target and direct. :D

I think he's confusing random with targeted yet indiscriminate. :)

vetran
2nd February 2017, 09:45
Dubai on the face of it is quite enlightened. Underneath its Male Emirates then the rest (a long way behind with Rich white Europeans in the middle).

However thousands of expats live there in peace with few restrictions. My Sister in law & Brother in law lived there for years with teenage children. Friends did similar.

No Alchohol. You can consume in hotels or in registered private homes but don't appear drunk.
No Public Affection.
No Sex unless married.
No Dissent or upsetting Emirates.


They are very keen to appear civilised as their future wealth is based on Tourism & Trade.

The city is incredible & changes every day, get her to watch some of the time lapse stuff showing Dubai beng built.

She will absolutely love it and it will be an incredible experience.

Don't just believe us check the Foreign office etc advice.


If your wife were talking about Tunisia or Turkey then you might have a point. In both places I had to uncoil and explain that my Daughters aren't to be treated like that. That was 10 days in each. We have spent Months in Dubai with nothing more unpleasant than the driving. My wife used to pop out there regularly to visit her sister and felt perfectly safe.

VillageContractor
2nd February 2017, 09:47
£1650! Holy molly! That's a lot for a trip!

Irrespective, I would still send her. I have 4 daughters and spent time in the middle east and not a big fan of their policy towards women but unless you're out drinking at night in Dubai it won't be a problem.

Moose423956
2nd February 2017, 10:07
From what I've heard there are no issues as long as you abide by the rules. Some friends of mine were arrested for drinking water in public during Ramadan. If you respect the local customs all should be well, but the school should be reminding the pupils of that regularly.

d000hg
2nd February 2017, 10:23
As a school trip I can't see problems as long as it's well-managed. Dubai is built on a foundation of injustice and exploitation and you DO NOT want to upset them but it is also very tourist-friendly and an eye-opener. It's a bit like Vegas... fascinating and worth going but you wouldn't want to necessarily spend long there.

I say go for it.

chopper
2nd February 2017, 11:29
No Alchohol. You can consume in hotels or in registered private homes but don't appear drunk.
No Public Affection.
No Sex unless married.
No Dissent or upsetting Emirates.

But we're talking about 14 year old schoolgirls here, on a school trip.

This stuff happens.

LondonManc
2nd February 2017, 11:31
But we're talking about 14 year old schoolgirls here, on a school trip.

This stuff happens.


You're confusing Dubai with Rochdale HTHBIDI

milanbenes
2nd February 2017, 12:18
I would tell her everything you said....

Your Daughter may see that she lives in a (mostly) tolerant society
Your Wife may learn that popular media representations are not necessarily true
The kids she interacts with may see that there are different ways to live
All percipients may learn the world is a varied place & that there is no one true way.
Schools are paranoid on kids safety (rightly so) & will only be taking them to reputable places.
Have a chat with your kid & say it’s a different culture, be sensible, but learn.


but don't let her go.

You do want her to come back don't you ?

Milan.

Mordac
2nd February 2017, 12:35
She does want to go - and is getting quite upset that we have not said yes.

I understand about the culture - however will she really get any real culture out their as I am not sure a 14 year old white girl in a gym kit is going to be allowed to wander the streets.

And while they need to be careful the missus' concern - a simple mistake such as not putting on the right clothing when leaving the hotel (anyone with kids will know how giddy they get) could lead to serious consequences - or maybe not?

So my concern is that they will see very little and just be locked in 'western enclaves' and never actually experience the culture.

And as NLUK says why go so far for that - surely a trip to Germany/Italy/France/Holland who all have thriving netball leagues would be a better option.

Or is this all just small town England paranoia?

It is perfectly understandable parental paranoia. If your daughter is sensible enough to observe the local sensitivities, why not let her go. She'll almost certainly love it, and you'll wonder months from now what all the fuss was about.

woohoo
2nd February 2017, 12:41
Be honest with your daughter.

Tell her it's a backward country that treats women like crap but it's one of the better ones in that region.

It's running out of its source of money, so is trying to be friendly to tourists to get their money. But they dislike our customs and way of life.

If you break a local law that might seem faintly ridiculous or even funny to her it could land her in real trouble.

Stick with groups, lone girls/women will get harassed - they are not used to it.

Don't wear anything revealing, you will offend their sensitive little hearts and then get harassed.

She will love it and if she ends up in prison for being drunk in public, you can tell her you told her so in a really smug way that you like.

northernladuk
2nd February 2017, 12:45
Be honest with your daughter.

Tell her it's a backward country that treats women like crap but it's one of the better ones in that region.

It's running out of its source of money, so is trying to be friendly to tourists to get their money. But they dislike our customs and way of life.

If you break a local law that might seem faintly ridiculous or even funny to her it could land her in real trouble.

Stick with groups, lone girls/women will get harassed - they are not used to it.

Don't wear anything revealing, you will offend their sensitive little hearts and then get harassed.

She will love it and if she ends up in prison for being drunk in public, you can tell her you told her so in a really smug way that you like.

I'd hazard a guess that the only view most teenagers have of Dubai is that <insert celebrity name> goes on holiday there and it looks cool due to endless articles in the teen media.

vetran
2nd February 2017, 12:55
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates

note the drugs cover perscription stuff as well. So if she is taking an opiate she could be in trouble.

Dubai travel advice for women - Lonely Planet (http://www.lonelyplanet.com/united-arab-emirates/dubai/women-travellers)

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g295424-r46309115-Dubai_Emirate_of_Dubai.html

teapot418
2nd February 2017, 18:09
It's fine until something goes wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/17/briton-reported-rape-dubai-extramarital-sex-charge

northernladyuk
2nd February 2017, 18:33
Tell her to steer clear of airport first class lounges.

SueEllen
2nd February 2017, 18:47
It's fine until something goes wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/17/briton-reported-rape-dubai-extramarital-sex-charge

If she stays with at least 2 female pals and doesn't do anything stupid she should be fine.

ladymuck
2nd February 2017, 18:52
A friend of mine lives in Dubai and I've been over there to visit her a few times.

I personally don't like the place. Not necessarily due to their culture (run on hypocrisy) but simply because it just isn't my sort of place, much like I'm not all that fussed by New York. The architecture is awful. It's like the equivalent of a boy racer going through Halfords with a magnet. Build quality is also appalling, even in some of the better hotels I've seen finishes that make you wonder who got paid to sign it off. The Palm is pointless and Atlantis is the most god-awful thing I have ever seen.

The best time I had was when we went to Oman for a boat trip (dolphins!) and, on another visit, a day out dune buggying. Apparently Abu Dhabi (my mate lived there initially) is nicer; I will probably go there when I next do a BA points run.

I've walked around parts of Dubai on my own. No-one harassed me (maybe there's other reasons for that :rolleyes:) but I can't say I felt particularly safe either.

I say send your daughter on the trip (it's expensive, she'll need lots of spends). It'll be a good experience one way or the other. It's only by going there that I was able to form my opinion of it. Some people love it, my mate tolerates it because it pays well and she likes the weather (except in full summer).

DimPrawn
2nd February 2017, 19:13
Next year, the teachers are arranging the school darts team to play in Bora Bora.

:rolleyes:

MrMarkyMark
2nd February 2017, 19:26
Next year, the teachers are arranging the school darts team to play in Bora Bora.

:rolleyes:


Only a really high standard of accommodation there, as well, how they survive :suicide:

greenlake
2nd February 2017, 20:54
Next year, the teachers are arranging the school darts team to play in Bora Bora.

:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, in America....

http://i.imgur.com/P7c2OgN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aDe0snJ.jpg

d000hg
2nd February 2017, 21:34
Be honest with your daughter.

Tell her it's a backward country that treats women like crap but it's one of the better ones in that region.

It's running out of its source of money, so is trying to be friendly to tourists to get their money. But they dislike our customs and way of life.

If you break a local law that might seem faintly ridiculous or even funny to her it could land her in real trouble.

Stick with groups, lone girls/women will get harassed - they are not used to it.

Don't wear anything revealing, you will offend their sensitive little hearts and then get harassed.

She will love it and if she ends up in prison for being drunk in public, you can tell her you told her so in a really smug way that you like.

Remind her to wear a slightly condescending look as well as appropriate clothing while you're at it.

I think maybe Woohoo should go on the cultural trip too... though ideally not hang around all the teenagers in short skirts. Actually are they allowed to wear short skirts when doing sport, this is actually a valid question given everything else.

SueEllen
2nd February 2017, 23:53
Remind her to wear a slightly condescending look as well as appropriate clothing while you're at it.

I think maybe Woohoo should go on the cultural trip too... though ideally not hang around all the teenagers in short skirts. Actually are they allowed to wear short skirts when doing sport, this is actually a valid question given everything else.

I presume as long as there are no external people spectating they will be OK.

woohoo
3rd February 2017, 08:47
Remind her to wear a slightly condescending look as well as appropriate clothing while you're at it.

I think maybe Woohoo should go on the cultural trip too... though ideally not hang around all the teenagers in short skirts. Actually are they allowed to wear short skirts when doing sport, this is actually a valid question given everything else.

Condescending perhaps but it's more of a hatred of control and religion. As for teenagers in short skirts, you are the only person to mention that - which I think perhaps says more about you than me.

original PM
3rd February 2017, 09:59
Remind her to wear a slightly condescending look as well as appropriate clothing while you're at it.

I think maybe Woohoo should go on the cultural trip too... though ideally not hang around all the teenagers in short skirts. Actually are they allowed to wear short skirts when doing sport, this is actually a valid question given everything else.

Dubai Netball League - Social and competitive netball in Dubai, UAE (http://dubainetballleague.com)

vetran
3rd February 2017, 10:01
Condescending perhaps but it's more of a hatred of control and religion. As for teenagers in short skirts, you are the only person to mention that - which I think perhaps says more about you than me.

d000hg's propensity for wearing short skirts is legendary. She is known as Madame Bow Wow on the circuit or so a large bird (MF all dressed up) told me.