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newbieITContractor2015
6th February 2017, 15:04
Hi,
I started a good public sector contract last October, which my client is keen to renew. The setup is a little awkward, it's basically large national outsourcer -- third party company --- my Ltd company.

I've structured my business outside of ir35 and had the contract amended for ir35 clauses. The contract is likely to be renewed before April, I'll be talking to the third party soon about the new changes. I wanted to ask a couple of points:

1. My client, the third party generates an invoice on my behalf and sends me a remittance. I take it for this to be outside of ir35 I need to generate my own invoice to send the client?

2. I use the end customer's PC in addition to my own whilst on site - there's no way to get around this due to the customer's own security and network requirements. What's the HMRC's view on this (Microsoft consultants also use the customers equipment whilst onsite).

3.Does signing into the visitors log book each day make a difference from an ir35 perspective?

Thanks

jamesbrown
6th February 2017, 15:41
You don't seem to understand the very basics of IR35 (even the comment about "structuring your business" is revealing), so I'd worry about that before the upcoming PS changes. None of those things discriminate between employees and contractors, so they're all completely irrelevant w/r to your IR35 status on a particular contract. The status of your contract w/r to IR35 is determined by your working practices and whether they resemble employment.

In terms of the PS changes, you'd be well advised to avoid any extension that takes a payment beyond April 5. At the very least, after April, you don't currently know what the status of that contract will be (probably inside) and, if it changes, you'll be in a difficult position trying to argue that it wasn't (inside) all along.

DaveB
6th February 2017, 15:52
Hi,
I started a good public sector contract last October, which my client is keen to renew. The setup is a little awkward, it's basically large national outsourcer -- third party company --- my Ltd company.

I've structured my business outside of ir35 and had the contract amended for ir35 clauses. The contract is likely to be renewed before April, I'll be talking to the third party soon about the new changes. I wanted to ask a couple of points:

1. My client, the third party generates an invoice on my behalf and sends me a remittance. I take it for this to be outside of ir35 I need to generate my own invoice to send the client?

2. I use the end customer's PC in addition to my own whilst on site - there's no way to get around this due to the customer's own security and network requirements. What's the HMRC's view on this (Microsoft consultants also use the customers equipment whilst onsite).

3.Does signing into the visitors log book each day make a difference from an ir35 perspective?

Thanks

Self Billing - Where the agent or another party generates the invoice on your behalf and then pays it is not an IR35 indicator.

Use of the end clients equipment is not an IR35 indicator. Security and confidentiality concerns make it reasonable for anyone working on site for the client to be required to use their equipment regardless of employment status. A better indicator would be if you are able to use your own equipment to work on the clients behalf when working off site.

Signing the visitors log is marginal at best although it could be argued that it points to you being outside IR35 if the permies don't have to do the same.

The biggest issue you have is that come April any payments you receive will more than likely be classed as deemed income and taxed. You may also then end up trying to argue with HMRC about why you shouldn't have been taxed on all the payments before April if nothing has substantially changed about the nature of the engagement.

The only way to avoid this is to not renew and go get a gig in the private sector, and make sure you tell the end client why.

northernladuk
6th February 2017, 16:12
Unfortunately the OP was thrashing around with IR35 back in September with guesses as to how he can appear outside and missing the mark.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/117210-ir35-expenses-insurance.html#post2315865

There was a URL removed from that post which was a X tips to keep you outside IR35.

Looks like he didn't take the advice back then to understand it properly and also to get a grip of what is happening in the PS which is a shame. He could have been ahead of the game at this point.

Andy Hallett
6th February 2017, 16:43
Hi,
I started a good public sector contract last October, which my client is keen to renew. The setup is a little awkward, it's basically large national outsourcer -- third party company --- my Ltd company.

I've structured my business outside of ir35 and had the contract amended for ir35 clauses. The contract is likely to be renewed before April, I'll be talking to the third party soon about the new changes. I wanted to ask a couple of points:

1. My client, the third party generates an invoice on my behalf and sends me a remittance. I take it for this to be outside of ir35 I need to generate my own invoice to send the client?

2. I use the end customer's PC in addition to my own whilst on site - there's no way to get around this due to the customer's own security and network requirements. What's the HMRC's view on this (Microsoft consultants also use the customers equipment whilst onsite).

3.Does signing into the visitors log book each day make a difference from an ir35 perspective?

Thanks

1) Incorrect
2) Doesn't definately put you inside IR35
3) Not really

At this point you should ask your 3rd party for a determination, they will then ask up the chain and hopefully you will get clarity.

northernladuk
6th February 2017, 17:22
1) Incorrect
2) Doesn't definately put you inside IR35
3) Not really

At this point you should ask your 3rd party for a determination, they will then ask up the chain and hopefully you will get clarity.

This but OP please get a better grasp of IR35. You are in as much danger putting yourself inside as you are from the PS changes.

NHS1979
6th February 2017, 18:51
The only way to avoid this is to not renew and go get a gig in the private sector, and make sure you tell the end client why.

Or get another gig with a different ps end client (if you don't care about the income drop or don't/can't work in private sector)

newbieITContractor2015
7th February 2017, 02:14
So the overwhelming advice on here is to walk away from the public sector as a contractor and take a private sector job - unfortunately the reality is that well paying private sector jobs aren't falling off trees. In addition it's only a matter of time before the government implements the same changes in the private sector, at which point the advice will be give up contracting presumably?

eek
7th February 2017, 04:51
So the overwhelming advice on here is to walk away from the public sector as a contractor and take a private sector job - unfortunately the reality is that well paying private sector jobs aren't falling off trees. In addition it's only a matter of time before the government implements the same changes in the private sector, at which point the advice will be give up contracting presumably?

No the advice here is that we strongly believe you know far less than you think you do when it comes to ir35.

After that our advice would be the standard one of make sure you are in a different contract after April so that hmrc can't come back in a year or so and so you know your contract was inside on April, well we think it was inside from day one, that's £x,000 you owe us.

And to avoid that risk you need to be in a different client via a different agency in April

newbieITContractor2015
7th February 2017, 15:11
You're right I'm not a ir35 guru, hence my questions here.

Northern lad you mentioned something about me not taking advice and how I should have done things differently, please elaborate.

I have company insurance, a qdos checked website, multiple clients (although 1 main client), marketing, don't get employee benefits and I use a mixture of customer and company equipment - what am I supposed to be doing differently to be fully outside ir35?

I think I'll just weigh my options up mid March and cancel the contract if needed (the end customer in this case determines ir35 status)

SueEllen
7th February 2017, 15:16
You're right I'm not a ir35 guru, hence my questions here.

Northern lad you mentioned something about me not taking advice and how I should have done things differently, please elaborate.

I have company insurance, a qdos checked website, multiple clients (although 1 main client), marketing, don't get employee benefits and I use a mixture of customer and company equipment - what am I supposed to be doing differently to be fully outside ir35?

I think I'll just weigh my options up mid March and cancel the contract if needed (the end customer in this case determines ir35 status)

You were told how to conduct yourself in another thread.

You are welcome to ask questions but don't expect people to continually answer the same ones and to spoon feed you.

Also you need to give notice in sufficient time to ensure your last payment doesn't come on or after 5th April. If they were anything like my last PS client when I was on weekly payments then leave 2 additional weeks.

northernladuk
7th February 2017, 15:24
You're right I'm not a ir35 guru, hence my questions here.

Northern lad you mentioned something about me not taking advice and how I should have done things differently, please elaborate.

I've already elaborated in post 4. You posted another thread awhile back where you were playing tickbox IR35 without understanding it. I mentioned in that thread that you should be reading up and understanding IR35 rather than just throwing odd topics at us without thinking or understanding why. You've come back and are again just throwing random stuff at us that would be pretty simple to answer if you had started to understand IR35. The using kit one is mentioned in many IR35 articles for a start.



I have company insurance, a qdos checked website, multiple clients (although 1 main client), marketing, don't get employee benefits and I use a mixture of customer and company equipment - what am I supposed to be doing differently to be fully outside ir35?

Understanding it. Again more tickboxes and no understanding.



I think I'll just weigh my options up mid March and cancel the contract if needed (the end customer in this case determines ir35 status)

You do realize from reading all the threads on here (you've done that haven't you?) that your payment in April will be hit. If you leave mid March you are going to join 1000's of other contractors? Gigs will be a bit think on the ground for awhile.

You just seem to be glossing over everything without fully understanding it. To be fair we see it a lot but that doesn't make it acceptable. You need to understand what you do, why and how and you won't need to answer many of your questions and also possibly be aware of many other things that you weren't before. IMO your biggest danger is D&C and part and parcel. If you don't understand IR35 you won't know how to act on clients site.

newbieITContractor2015
7th February 2017, 15:24
Ok, noted.

On the ir35 if it's all about working practices, how does hmrc determine your working practices - ask the end client, follow you in the office for a few weeks, take your word on it, consult a black book?

northernladuk
7th February 2017, 15:28
Ok, noted.

On the ir35 if it's all about working practices, how does hmrc determine your working practices - ask the end client, follow you in the office for a few weeks, take your word on it, consult a black book?

yes, no, no and if that black book is case law then yes.

Although working practices do trump contract the contract has to have your main pillars of defense in there to start etc... It's more than just looking at one thing.

teapot418
7th February 2017, 15:29
Ok, noted.

On the ir35 if it's all about working practices, how does hmrc determine your working practices - ask the end client, follow you in the office for a few weeks, take your word on it, consult a black book?

If you're in London, there's an IR35 event tonight.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/lets-talk-about-ir35-tickets-31643726237

newbieITContractor2015
7th February 2017, 15:32
Thanks, unfortunately I can't make it tonight, but will keep an eye out and do some more reading.