PDA

View Full Version : 24th Feb deadline for handing in your notice



cojak
8th February 2017, 11:34
If your agency's payroll runs on the 24th of the month.

As it says here: IR35 inspectors to probe public PSCs retrospectively :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012890ir35_inspectors_probe_public_pscs_retrospec tively.html)

You've got 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 days to make up your mind whether or not to jump ship.

Too late, that ship has sailed...

jamesbrown
8th February 2017, 11:37
Worth a sticky...

Lurker101
8th February 2017, 12:11
If your agency's payroll runs on the 24th of the month.

As it says here: IR35 inspectors to probe public PSCs retrospectively :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012890ir35_inspectors_probe_public_pscs_retrospec tively.html)

You've got 12 days to make up your mind whether or not to jump ship.

Good to know.

My agency is arranging for extra payments so that any invoices can be paid to my company prior to April 5th (at a fee). A further concern around that is the payment between the client and the agency and if that occurs after the regulation changes will that also raise a flag to HMRC or is it only the fee-payer payment that is affected?

MrMarkyMark
8th February 2017, 12:12
Good to know.

My agency is arranging for extra payments so that any invoices can be paid to my company prior to April 5th (at a fee). A further concern around that is the payment between the client and the agency and if that occurs after the regulation changes will that also raise a flag to HMRC or is it only the fee-payer payment that is affected?

Sounds far too risky to me.

YMMV.

northernladuk
8th February 2017, 12:15
Sounds far too risky to me.

YMMV.

Gotta give it to his agent. Making them pay extra to get their money with no extra risk to the agency is pretty smart ;)

I personally think the payment between client and agency has nothing do to with this. We constantly bang on about their contract being nothing to do with the contractor so can't see why this is different.

I'd be interesting to know whether Lurker is staying on or just happy to fudge his payments a bit and carry on.

Lurker101
8th February 2017, 12:36
Gotta give it to his agent. Making them pay extra to get their money with no extra risk to the agency is pretty smart ;)

I personally think the payment between client and agency has nothing do to with this. We constantly bang on about their contract being nothing to do with the contractor so can't see why this is different.

I'd be interesting to know whether Lurker is staying on or just happy to fudge his payments a bit and carry on.

It's the first I had heard of the charge on extra payments and it is a business decision I will have to take (sharp practice from the agency as you said). My current contract expires 31st March and I won't be in any contract through the change in regulations so as long as the payments come through and are not affected in any way I am reasonably happy. If they do want a renewal then it will be for a totally different project delivered under a different contract. I also won't be accepting said contract if I am deemed inside IR35 as there is absolutely no point in trading as a Ltd in that situation.

pictavia
8th February 2017, 13:09
I also won't be accepting said contract if I am deemed inside IR35 as there is absolutely no point in trading as a Ltd in that situation.

Good point, I wonder how many will close their PSCs if the only work available in inside IR35. Ok, there will be outside IR35 private sector contracts but for how long?

I'm worried that completing my contract (finished in March) after being offered an extension inside IR35 could be considered as accepting the deemed employment assessment unless there is a genuine change to working practices. Walking out early would likely compromise referencing and may produce a bill from the agency for losses but that is a risk I may need to take.

At times, I feel I've been sleepwalking into a trap, taking that last extension was a bad move.

northernladuk
8th February 2017, 13:17
Good point, I wonder how many will close their PSCs if the only work available in inside IR35. Ok, there will be outside IR35 private sector contracts but for how long?

I'm worried that completing my contract (finished in March) after being offered an extension inside IR35 could be considered as accepting the deemed employment assessment unless there is a genuine change to working practices. Walking out early would likely compromise referencing and may produce a bill from the agency for losses but that is a risk I may need to take.

At times, I feel I've been sleepwalking into a trap, taking that last extension was a bad move.

Very few IMO. There are some new rules about shutting down LTD's and not being able to work in the same trade for 2 years after. This mentality that there is nothing out there beyond PS work is pretty poor IMO. It's still a short term gig like any other so a knee jerk reaction to shut the company down is pretty short sighted.

MrMarkyMark
8th February 2017, 13:21
Very few IMO. There are some new rules about shutting down LTD's and not being able to work in the same trade for 2 years after. This mentality that there is nothing out there beyond PS work is pretty poor IMO. It's still a short term gig like any other so a knee jerk reaction to shut the company down is pretty short sighted.

Depends.

There are plenty out there, this is a sad fact.

I know I have had the misfortune to have worked with a few :smile

rob s
8th February 2017, 13:56
Regarding the 24th, is there any fear that even that is leaving it too late as the client may assess you whilst you're working your notice and give your details to HMRC thereby making you more prominently on the radar than someone who slipped away before the assessment took place?

northernladuk
8th February 2017, 13:59
Depends.

There are plenty out there, this is a sad fact.

I know I have had the misfortune to have worked with a few :smile

And in those cases HMRC have done the right thing. Again, sadly, everyone get's tarred with the same brush.

pictavia
8th February 2017, 13:59
Very few IMO. This mentality that there is nothing out there beyond PS work is pretty poor IMO. It's still a short term gig like any other so a knee jerk reaction to shut the company down is pretty short sighted.

Yes, I think you are correct there are plenty of opportunities outside the PS. I was assuming that HMRC would like to role out similar changes to the private sector at some point.

northernladuk
8th February 2017, 14:01
Yes, I think you are correct there are plenty of opportunities outside the PS. I was assuming that HMRC would like to role out similar changes to the private sector at some point.

The feeling is they will try but IMO people have to focus on the issue now, not what might happen. So many people not understanding what is happening in the next 4 weeks let alone making decisions based on a total unknown that might or might not happen in 3-4 years.

fidot
8th February 2017, 14:34
There are some new rules about shutting down LTD's and not being able to work in the same trade for 2 years after. .

Only if you are taking Entrepreneurs' Relief. Even then, there is nothing to stop one from doing it - just tax implications.

cojak
8th February 2017, 14:41
Regarding the 24th, is there any fear that even that is leaving it too late as the client may assess you whilst you're working your notice and give your details to HMRC thereby making you more prominently on the radar than someone who slipped away before the assessment took place?

Not really - the PS contractor who had their contract reviewed by QDOS et al had it confirmed as outside. They may well have been outside if they'd stayed. You can't compare the expired contract with nothing, can you?

northernladuk
8th February 2017, 14:42
Only if you are taking Entrepreneurs' Relief. Even then, there is nothing to stop one from doing it - just tax implications.

Yep. If people don't understand what is happening to their gigs in less than 6 weeks I'm pretty sure they won't fully understand changes to closing the company down. Just throwing out there.

b r
8th February 2017, 15:16
My agency is arranging for extra payments so that any invoices can be paid to my company prior to April 5th (at a fee). A further concern around that is the payment between the client and the agency and if that occurs after the regulation changes will that also raise a flag to HMRC or is it only the fee-payer payment that is affected?

My OH's agency said that they wouldn't be altering their payment schedule, they've now changed their mind (pretty sure we weren't the only ones questioning this) and have guaranteed payment by 5th April or earlier.

Andy Hallett
8th February 2017, 15:40
We are paying all timesheets and invoices for PSC's in Public Sector received by 4th April on 5th April. This will be at nil cost.

E-mails are going out today / tomorrow confirming this. Marketing are just correcting my poor grammar as we speak.

You may wish to edit the title:

How about "24th Feb deadline for handing in your notice unless you contract with an enlightened agency"

RonBW
8th February 2017, 15:51
Only if you are taking Entrepreneurs' Relief. Even then, there is nothing to stop one from doing it - just tax implications.

And if people do claim ER then we might eventually get some clarity over whether closing down and taking a permanent (or even temporary) job paid via PAYE counts as the same trade or not.

northernladuk
8th February 2017, 15:52
And if people do claim ER then we might eventually get some clarity over whether closing down and taking a permanent (or even temporary) job paid via PAYE counts as the same trade or not.

That's a very good point. I'd hate to be the guinea pig case though :D

MrStu
8th February 2017, 17:35
20th of March, if you are able to invoice weekly :grin

eek
8th February 2017, 21:48
20th of March, if you are able to invoice weekly :grin

Nope it depends on your billing terms and your resignation terms.

For those on 4 weeks notice with monthly billing it's already gone. For those on 0 days notice and 1 week terms it's march 24th with payment march 31st unless your agency is offering payment on Wednesday April 5th

MrStu
9th February 2017, 07:14
Nope it depends on your billing terms and your resignation terms.

For those on 4 weeks notice with monthly billing it's already gone. For those on 0 days notice and 1 week terms it's march 24th with payment march 31st unless your agency is offering payment on Wednesday April 5th
That isn't the way the agency I'm through pays invoices. For me, I definitely have to give notice on the 20th.

rob s
9th February 2017, 08:58
That isn't the way the agency I'm through pays invoices. For me, I definitely have to give notice on the 20th.

Same here. 4 weeks notice and weekly billing.

daemon
11th February 2017, 13:35
Nope it depends on your billing terms and your resignation terms.

For those on 4 weeks notice with monthly billing it's already gone. For those on 0 days notice and 1 week terms it's march 24th with payment march 31st unless your agency is offering payment on Wednesday April 5th

+1

I'm giving my weeks notice to the agency on 17th March, last day 24th March, payment 31st March.

coolhandluke
14th February 2017, 21:08
Sorry to post a stupid question but if you have zero days notice but monthly payment terms what would be the end date? I'm guessing the end of Feb to be safe?

I've warned my client that the 24th will be my last day unless I can negotiate my payment terms with the agent. My only problem is that I don't trust the agent to stick to the agreed schedule!

northernladuk
14th February 2017, 21:25
That's an interesting point. What if the agent is late paying :D

teapot418
14th February 2017, 21:55
That's an interesting point. What if the agent is late paying :D

Not really in their interest to be, as they'd be liable for ErNICs.

northernladuk
14th February 2017, 22:34
Not really in their interest to be, as they'd be liable for ErNICs.

Incompetence knows no deadlines :D

NHS1979
15th February 2017, 06:37
And don't forget even if you're leaving before end of March, big agencies like sThree have already written to all clients asking them to make determinations on all contractors now. So you might get an IR35 determination and messaging to HMRC even before you've left

cojak
15th February 2017, 08:06
And don't forget even if you're leaving before end of March, big agencies like sThree have already written to all clients asking them to make determinations on all contractors now. So you might get an IR35 determination and messaging to HMRC even before you've left

@AndyH - is this the case?

Lurker101
15th February 2017, 08:37
@AndyH - is this the case?

My agency have also written to the client asking this and I think it is to do with the 31 days to respond that would then move responsibilities onto the PSB. I would possibly expect a discussion around determination and maybe even a decision before but reporting would not start until after the fee payer starts to deduct PAYE and NICs etc. As the new rules do not actually come into force until the new financial year there is no requirement for early reporting. My agency will also be serving notice on all public sector contracts shortly as they have to renegotiate them with both parties.

northernladuk
15th February 2017, 09:02
You realise a new contract isn't really going to mean much?

malvolio
15th February 2017, 09:15
You realise a new contract isn't really going to mean much?
Other than a significant change in payment terms and expenses you mean... :tongue

teapot418
15th February 2017, 09:41
My agency have also written to the client asking this and I think it is to do with the 31 days to respond that would then move responsibilities onto the PSB. I would possibly expect a discussion around determination and maybe even a decision before but reporting would not start until after the fee payer starts to deduct PAYE and NICs etc. As the new rules do not actually come into force until the new financial year there is no requirement for early reporting. My agency will also be serving notice on all public sector contracts shortly as they have to renegotiate them with both parties.

Presumably the "31 days to respond" doesn't legally come into effect until the legislation comes into effect.

Applying it to 'payments made after..' seems crazy - what is the agent supposed to do with those payments while waiting for a determination? The client doesn't have the tool to make the determination.

If there's one thing they really should do, it is change the 'payments after' bit. But that would be sensible, so they won't.

Anyone know the date for the final legislation?

northernladuk
15th February 2017, 09:45
Other than a significant change in payment terms and expenses you mean... :tongue

Well yes but on the face of that comment I'd be very careful that this isn't just standard spiel from an agent that hasn't a clue. 'Don't worry we'll change your contract and your safe' would be a pretty standard response to try pacify contractors but the reality is that and that alone is pretty useless if the contractors in question intend to just turn up the day after and carry on where they left off.

malvolio
15th February 2017, 09:52
Well yes but on the face of that comment I'd be very careful that this isn't just standard spiel from an agent that hasn't a clue. 'Don't worry we'll change your contract and your safe' would be a pretty standard response to try pacify contractors but the reality is that and that alone is pretty useless if the contractors in question intend to just turn up the day after and carry on where they left off.
Not the point and nothing to do with the engagement itself. Your existing contract will be written to align with a gross payment process. Now they will have to switch to a deductions-led payment and you need the contract to reflect that or they get swamped with demands for non-payment of viable invoices..

Contracts have to reflect reality. Agencies will take notice of that minor detail if there is a faint chance they could get penalised for not ensuring they do. You don't matter to them, HMRC does.

Andy Hallett
15th February 2017, 14:43
And don't forget even if you're leaving before end of March, big agencies like sThree have already written to all clients asking them to make determinations on all contractors now. So you might get an IR35 determination and messaging to HMRC even before you've left

What is this messaging to HMRC rubbish you are talking about?

We have to ask for a determination in case we have to make a payment past 6th April. In reality the determinations that matter will be for contracts starting 1st April as there is a very big natural cut off 31st March.

Andy Hallett
15th February 2017, 14:45
@AndyH - is this the case?

Apart from the messaging bit, yes.

cojak
15th February 2017, 15:21
Apart from the messaging bit, yes.

It was the messaging bit that concerned me.

Thanks for clearing that up Andy. :)

jamesbrown
15th February 2017, 16:15
What is this messaging to HMRC rubbish you are talking about?

The "messaging" from whom?

I'm not sure you can reasonably imply that the push for a determination (regardless of whether a contractor is staying or leaving) has no consequences, but perhaps that wasn't your intention(?)

For example (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/574280/letter_from_CST_to_state_secretaries.pdf).


The current off-payroll rules issued by HM Treasury already require public bodies to report any cases to HMRC where the individual fails to provide assurance that they are paying the right taxes. I would encourage public sector bodies to continue to pass on information to HMRC wherever they become aware of individuals not paying the correct taxes.

eek
15th February 2017, 16:27
The "messaging" from whom?

I'm not sure you can reasonably imply that the push for a determination (regardless of whether a contractor is staying or leaving) has no consequences, but perhaps that wasn't your intention(?)

For example (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/574280/letter_from_CST_to_state_secretaries.pdf).

The problem here is that Agents need determinations by April 1st and possibly far earlier (based on something I saw earlier today).

Hence they do need to be asking those questions now as there are people who need those answers..

cojak
15th February 2017, 16:31
The "messaging" from whom?

I'm not sure you can reasonably imply that the push for a determination (regardless of whether a contractor is staying or leaving) has no consequences, but perhaps that wasn't your intention(?)

For example (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/574280/letter_from_CST_to_state_secretaries.pdf).

But they ARE paying the right taxes up until the 5th April under the contract that they are working to (at least if they had the contract review that passed the outside IR35 criteria and their working practices confirm this).

As they won't have a contract after this date to put through the new tool, there is nothing to compare against.

jamesbrown
15th February 2017, 16:39
The problem here is that Agents need determinations by April 1st and possibly far earlier (based on something I saw earlier today).

Hence they do need to be asking those questions now as there are people who need those answers..

Sure, it's not their fault. I'm just saying that, should a contractor indicate that they intend to leave, and do not want a determination on their existing contract, it might be reasonable to expect the agency to not ask for one.

cojak
15th February 2017, 16:41
The problem here is that Agents need determinations by April 1st and possibly far earlier (based on something I saw earlier today).

Hence they do need to be asking those questions now as there are people who need those answers..

Then maybe they should be leaving today instead of the 24th Feb/24th Mar payroll? :frown

MrMarkyMark
15th February 2017, 16:43
Then maybe they should be leaving today instead of the 24th Feb/24th Mar payroll? :frown


Sinking ship, think Titanic.

There will be casualties :eyes

This is pretty much exactly what I expected to see.

I could even do a slide :laugh

The real one liner serious bit, is you need to understand exactly what you are getting into / involved with.
I feel some people are outside of that now.

jamesbrown
15th February 2017, 16:43
But they ARE paying the right taxes up until the 5th April under the contract that they are working to (at least if they had the contract review that passed the outside IR35 criteria and their working practices confirm this).

As they won't have a contract after this date to put through the new tool, there is nothing to compare against.

I don't think it matters whether the WP are inside or outside in the first instance. However, I do think it's possible that a formal determination that an existing contract is "inside" could be a trigger point for a PSB informing HMRC where they don't believe the contractor is currently paying the correct tax. Bottom line, unless you're planning to stay, I don't think you'd want a determination from a PSB when you already have your own determination...

cojak
15th February 2017, 16:48
I don't think it matters whether the WP are inside or outside in the first instance. However, I do think it's possible that a formal determination that an existing contract is "inside" could be a trigger point for a PSB informing HMRC where they don't believe the contractor is currently paying the correct tax. Bottom line, unless you're planning to stay, I don't think you'd want a determination from a PSB when you already have your own determination...

Bloody hell - if that's the case they should have left on the 31st December, there's enough clear blue water then! :eek

MrMarkyMark
15th February 2017, 16:50
Bloody hell - if that's the case they should have left on the 31st December, there's enough clear blue water then! :eek

Country doesn't need you any longer, it needs cash.

So....no stone will be left unturned :suicide:

jamesbrown
15th February 2017, 16:59
Bloody hell - if that's the case they should have left on the 31st December, there's enough clear blue water then! :eek

Yes, to be clear, I'm not trying to frighten anyone, just suggesting that the agency requesting a determination may, in itself, cause problems later on, even if you're planning to leave, so it would be better to leave sooner or make it clear to the agent that you don't want a determination (because you have one already) - they may ignore you of course, without formal notice. Bottom line, I don't think NHS1979 was talking about "messaging" from the agent, but from the PSB, and I think it was a legitimate point.

eek
15th February 2017, 17:06
Then maybe they should be leaving today instead of the 24th Feb/24th Mar payroll? :frown

The irony is that if said people actually read the guidance provided the answer is already in plain sight...

The issue here is that really that said people should no the answer and shouldn't be insisting on certain things they are insisting on.

Oh and if you believe that you will be caught by the test leave...

MrMarkyMark
15th February 2017, 17:17
The irony is that if said people actually read the guidance provided the answer is already in plain sight...

The issue here is that really that said people should no the answer and shouldn't be insisting on certain things they are insisting on.

Oh and if you believe that you will be caught by the test leave...

:suicide:

LondonManc
15th February 2017, 17:22
Gotta give it to his agent. Making them pay extra to get their money with no extra risk to the agency is pretty smart ;)

I personally think the payment between client and agency has nothing do to with this. We constantly bang on about their contract being nothing to do with the contractor so can't see why this is different.

I'd be interesting to know whether Lurker is staying on or just happy to fudge his payments a bit and carry on.

I agree with this, in the same way that you might be on weekly billing, the agency is probably not getting paid weekly by the client, certainly at larger clients.

RonBW
15th February 2017, 17:28
The irony is that if said people actually read the guidance provided the answer is already in plain sight...

The issue here is that really that said people should no the answer and shouldn't be insisting on certain things they are insisting on.

Nope, you've lost me there - I honestly can't understand what you're trying to say.

Can I have a translation for those of us that are too dumb to understand?

eek
15th February 2017, 17:34
Nope, you've lost me there - I honestly can't understand what you're trying to say.

Can I have a translation for those of us that are too dumb to understand?

A particular organisation is asking for determinations by a set date in Early March. That organisation if it read the guidance they have provided for the last 7 months already knows what the answer will be in 99% of cases...

RonBW
15th February 2017, 17:36
A particular organisation is asking for determinations by a set date in Early March. That organisation if it read the guidance they have provided for the last 7 months already knows what the answer will be in 99% of cases...

Ah, got you. If they followed the updated CL1 guidance that came out last summer, then they would be in a position in the vast majority of cases where the contractor is provided via CL1 to understand whether they fall inside or outside IR35 because of the update to direction and control.

I think.

eek
15th February 2017, 17:41
Ah, got you. If they followed the updated CL1 guidance that came out last summer, then they would be in a position in the vast majority of cases where the contractor is provided via CL1 to understand whether they fall inside or outside IR35 because of the update to direction and control.

I think.

Correct....

NHS1979
15th February 2017, 18:31
So - another day of intrigue. The PSB say they won't do the determination the agency has asked for (they haven't told the agency this). They know there is no need as contract and payments don't cross into 6th April. They want me to be happy and do the job.

Now the PSB are thinking up all sorts of interesting new contracts and working practices to create new outside-IR35 roles, and seem to be strongly suggesting they will raise rates if inside IR35. Much to ponder - they spent 30mins saying if I did a role outside IR35 but still with them, that I would be ok as they bore risk. But retro is always on my mind

eek
15th February 2017, 18:36
So - another day of intrigue. The PSB say they won't do the determination the agency has asked for (they haven't told the agency this). They know there is no need as contract and payments don't cross into 6th April. They want me to be happy and do the job.

Now the PSB are thinking up all sorts of interesting new contracts and working practices to create new outside-IR35 roles, and seem to be strongly suggesting they will raise rates if inside IR35. Much to ponder - they spent 30mins saying if I did a role outside IR35 but still with them, that I would be ok as they bore risk. But retro is always on my mind

Retro is the risk if you are deemed inside after April but probably only for the previous bit of the current contract (they don't need to know that though).

Personally I would be clear to them - outside and I'm happy to stay - inside its just not worth the risk....

LondonManc
15th February 2017, 19:07
So - another day of intrigue. The PSB say they won't do the determination the agency has asked for (they haven't told the agency this). They know there is no need as contract and payments don't cross into 6th April. They want me to be happy and do the job.

Now the PSB are thinking up all sorts of interesting new contracts and working practices to create new outside-IR35 roles, and seem to be strongly suggesting they will raise rates if inside IR35. Much to ponder - they spent 30mins saying if I did a role outside IR35 but still with them, that I would be ok as they bore risk. But retro is always on my mind

If they certify that it is outside and you've previously been confirmed by QDOS or similar as outside, you should be fine. What you're probably best doing, though, is getting a working practices statement from them too, to go with the outside declaration.

Lurker101
15th February 2017, 19:08
Retro is the risk if you are deemed inside after April but probably only for the previous bit of the current contract (they don't need to know that though).

Personally I would be clear to them - outside and I'm happy to stay - inside its just not worth the risk....

That is pretty much my position. My IR35 status is my determination for the contract running until 31st March. If they want my services on other projects after 6th April then they would need to find me outside IR35.

NHS1979
15th February 2017, 20:12
I haven't had my previous contracts reviewed by QDOS or similar but am thinking of this and getting insurance (I realise both are a bit late)

northernladuk
15th February 2017, 20:18
I haven't had my previous contracts reviewed by QDOS or similar but am thinking of this and getting insurance (I realise both are a bit late)

Tut tut.....

NHS1979
15th February 2017, 20:30
Tut tut.....

Nobody I've spoken to has done either of these also - I think it's just not been known about for whole sectors. Certainly non-IT NHS stuff. I'm one of the free even stressing about all this - I guess despite me breaking the chain, it's worth doing reviews and insurance even if late re retro

Semtex
15th February 2017, 20:34
What is this messaging to HMRC rubbish you are talking about?

We have to ask for a determination in case we have to make a payment past 6th April. In reality the determinations that matter will be for contracts starting 1st April as there is a very big natural cut off 31st March.

Not at all

If the OP is talking about what I think he is then most PS orgs are reviewing their Non perm staff's working practices which are for 16-17 but also determine the status moving forward. Failure to respond to these then the PS org HA|S to inform HMRC and failure to not respond for further evidence / assurance will also mean the PS org has to inform HMRC.

Basically anything other than a 'low' will mean they can inform HMRC IR35 team (I have this in writing)

If you decide to leave they have to inform HMRC, basically anything!

Semtex
15th February 2017, 20:36
But they ARE paying the right taxes up until the 5th April under the contract that they are working to (at least if they had the contract review that passed the outside IR35 criteria and their working practices confirm this).

As they won't have a contract after this date to put through the new tool, there is nothing to compare against.

Not always the case. MoJ are asking for a review of ALL contracts of 6 months or more or over £220 per day. This is both retrospective and forward thinking and is NON Negotiable...

NHS1979
15th February 2017, 20:44
Not always the case. MoJ are asking for a review of ALL contracts of 6 months or more or over £220 per day. This is both retrospective and forward thinking and is NON Negotiable...

Crikey sounds far worse than my situation - all contractors should refuse to work for MoJ

northernladuk
15th February 2017, 20:52
Nobody I've spoken to has done either of these also - I think it's just not been known about for whole sectors. Certainly non-IT NHS stuff. I'm one of the free even stressing about all this - I guess despite me breaking the chain, it's worth doing reviews and insurance even if late re retro

Sadly very common but it doesn't make it right. You could argue that is the reason all this has dropped on us. You could also argue it would have been nice for those to get caught and leave the rest of us alone but let's not go there.

cojak
15th February 2017, 21:00
Not always the case. MoJ are asking for a review of ALL contracts of 6 months or more or over £220 per day. This is both retrospective and forward thinking and is NON Negotiable...

Then I'm very pleased not to be in those contractor's shoes...

breaktwister
15th February 2017, 22:54
MoJ are asking for a review of ALL contracts of 6 months or more or over £220 per day. This is both retrospective and forward thinking and is NON Negotiable...

I expect a lot of PSB and agencies will be doing similar for current contracts. Exactly as HMRC intended. I wonder if HMRC will be taking on contractors to deal with the amount of cases flagged for inspection?

northernladuk
15th February 2017, 23:12
I expect a lot of PSB and agencies will be doing similar for current contracts.

Based on what?

breaktwister
16th February 2017, 01:08
Based on what?

A number of agencies on this forum have been saying that they are contacting end-clients asking for IR35 determinations for current contractors, even those where contracts are due to end before 6th April. My agency is doing this.

I assume that the OP meant that MoJ was looking at current contractors and not their full historic records of all 6 month+ contracts.

5000
16th February 2017, 08:46
Not always the case. MoJ are asking for a review of ALL contracts of 6 months or more or over £220 per day. This is both retrospective and forward thinking and is NON Negotiable...

Please note that the public sector are required to do this anyway and that it may have nothing to do with the off payroll reform.

From the technical note (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/off-payroll-working-in-the-public-sector-reform-of-the-intermediaries-legislation-technical-note/off-payroll-working-in-the-public-sector-reform-of-the-intermediaries-legislation-technical-note):

3.Off-payroll working in the public sector tax legislation is separate from Treasury procurement rules which apply in central government. The Treasury rules broadly apply where staff are hired at a rate of £220 per day or on contracts of more than 6 months. These thresholds do not apply to the tax rules.

pscont
16th February 2017, 09:17
But they ARE paying the right taxes up until the 5th April under the contract that they are working to (at least if they had the contract review that passed the outside IR35 criteria and their working practices confirm this).

As they won't have a contract after this date to put through the new tool, there is nothing to compare against.

The tool (when available) is anonymous. However it generates a unique ID for every run. So a PSO bod can say we ran the tool for this guy and we got this ID and the current contract is inside.
My agent also will ask the PSO to determine the contracts, but they said it will be on a functional role basis - i.e. are the UAT testers in or out. So kind of a blanket decision in a sense, but this will not be reported to HMRC (I don't trust them not to).

b r
16th February 2017, 09:38
Not always the case. MoJ are asking for a review of ALL contracts of 6 months or more or over £220 per day. This is both retrospective and forward thinking and is NON Negotiable...

Sorry, but reading yesterdays article from the Agency on ContractorUK news they specifically said it was nothing to do with the contract and all about the working practices. So a contract review should be irrelevant, what they'll need to do is separately interview each contractor and hiring Manager plus then maybe review their actual work - or am I wrong?

The IR35 tests are based on working practice, not just what it says in the contract. Also note, the new legislation covers where the services are “performed personally by the worker”.*

April's off-payroll rules: what one contractor recruitment agency thinks :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012900aprils_payroll_rules_what_one_agency_thinks .html)

northernladuk
16th February 2017, 09:55
Sorry, but reading yesterdays article from the Agency on ContractorUK news they specifically said it was nothing to do with the contract and all about the working practices. So a contract review should be irrelevant, what they'll need to do is separately interview each contractor and hiring Manager plus then maybe review their actual work - or am I wrong?

The IR35 tests are based on working practice, not just what it says in the contract. Also note, the new legislation covers where the services are “performed personally by the worker”.*

April's off-payroll rules: what one contractor recruitment agency thinks :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012900aprils_payroll_rules_what_one_agency_thinks .html)

You are wrong. You've not taken the full context. Firstly this is an interview with an agent.. Hardly the best article to be taking fact from..
Secondly he actually said..

Rethink has seen an early version of the tool from HMRC which shows that it is the actual working practices that determine an IR35 status, not what the contract says.

So he is talking about the tool specifically. The tool won't ask you if you have this clause and that clause in the contract, it will ask about what you do on site. Just how the IR35 cases have gone.

If push comes to shove and you get investigated it the contract will make up part of your defense. It's well known that working practices will trump it but if you've got a solid contract to start it's going to help. If your contract says you are inside then you are probably screwed.

b r
16th February 2017, 10:07
You are wrong.

Hmm, don't think so and you do contradict yourself too:



If push comes to shove and you get investigated it the contract will make up part of your defense. It's well known that working practices will trump it but if you've got a solid contract to start it's going to help.

And tbh if the contract says inside, you're inside so it's irrelevant.

northernladuk
16th February 2017, 10:10
Hmm, don't think so and you do contradict yourself too:

Hmmm Not too sure where I see that I am contradicting myself. The tool focuses purely on the WP for it's determination. Having everything else in the background in order is just as important and that includes a well written and checked contract.


And tbh if the contract says inside, you're inside so it's irrelevant.

So make sure it isn't.

RonBW
16th February 2017, 12:33
The tool (when available) is anonymous. However it generates a unique ID for every run. So a PSO bod can say we ran the tool for this guy and we got this ID and the current contract is inside.

Or they could say that and say that it was outside. But unless there is an audit of who it was actually for, with a recorded trail of what questions were asked (HMRC has said that they will continue to develop and work on the tool) and what answers were given, it'll be interesting to see how strongly HMRC stick to their "we'll abide by the tool" statement in the future.

LondonManc
16th February 2017, 13:39
Or they could say that and say that it was outside. But unless there is an audit of who it was actually for, with a recorded trail of what questions were asked (HMRC has said that they will continue to develop and work on the tool) and what answers were given, it'll be interesting to see how strongly HMRC stick to their "we'll abide by the tool" statement in the future.

Especially when the set of "silver bullet" answers has been figured out.

northernladuk
16th February 2017, 13:55
Especially when the set of "silver bullet" answers has been figured out.

But if they don't match the WP's HMRC will be rubbing their hands in glee.

pscont
16th February 2017, 14:50
But if they don't match the WP's HMRC will be rubbing their hands in glee.

I am sure they will match the WPs

northernladuk
16th February 2017, 14:57
I am sure they will match the WPs

I have a feeling, if the BETs were anything to go by, that isn't a given.

eek
16th February 2017, 14:58
I have a feeling, if the BETs were anything to go by, that isn't a given.

I would actually have gone for :rollin: however I actually suspect that getting a pass is going to be far far harder...

rob s
23rd February 2017, 15:53
Well, I have next gig lined up, but it's public-private hybrid. Not FOI, but one could expect it to be part of the next round of targets assuming HMRC will continue the rollout.

Contract coming shortly, through agent swears is outside, and ofc I'll get it assessed, but I'm leery of assessments and trusting transient/uninformed client staff to accurately describe WP.

I'm thinking of playing safe and going inside even though I may legitimately be outside. I realise that sounds horrendous but I don't want to be in the same position a year from now where we all think we're outside but a ridiculously loaded 'test' or uninformed client puts everyone inside.

Plus it's more than 2 miles from current gig so some expenses may be possible if I remember my expenses rule correctly.

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 15:54
2 miles? Expenses possible?"Explain. You were at uour last client over 24 months and you are thinking 2 miles resets the clock?

LondonManc
23rd February 2017, 15:55
Well, I have next gig lined up, but it's public-private hybrid. Not FOI, but one could expect it to be part of the next round of targets assuming HMRC will continue the rollout.

Contract coming shortly, through agent swears is outside, and ofc I'll get it assessed, but I'm leery of assessments and trusting transient/uninformed client staff to accurately describe WP.

I'm thinking of playing safe and going inside even though I may legitimately be outside. I realise that sounds horrendous but I don't want to be in the same position a year from now where we all think we're outside but a ridiculously loaded 'test' or uninformed client puts everyone inside.

Plus it's more than 2 miles from current gig so some expenses may be possible if I remember my expenses rule correctly.

Make sure you get your contracts, WPs, etc. reviewed regularly to keep you outside. If they tell you outside, take the outside and remember to set the money aside for six years. :)

oh and :banana:

rob s
23rd February 2017, 16:01
2 miles? Expenses possible?"Explain. You were at uour last client over 24 months and you are thinking 2 miles resets the clock?

I thought so but I'm guessing by your incredulous response that I'm woefully wrong.

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 16:10
I thought so but I'm guessing by your incredulous response that I'm woefully wrong.

Correct.

rob s
23rd February 2017, 16:12
Drat.

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 16:19
:laugh

MrMarkyMark
23rd February 2017, 16:25
:laugh

Don't see the issue the OP just needs to move house to a very different location :confused:

b r
23rd February 2017, 16:28
2 miles? Expenses possible?"Explain. You were at uour last client over 24 months and you are thinking 2 miles resets the clock?

Different location.

When a perm my office was at Brooklands and while I couldn't claim expenses into there from home I did with every other office irrelevant of how near/far/distance, including Chessington which I got to using the A3, ie passing within a mile of my 'home' office.

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 16:48
Different location.

So what?

Edit : In fact.. Don't answer that. There is a 24 month rule thread for this discussion.

rob s
23rd February 2017, 16:59
I have no idea where I got 2 miles from then. Reading the 101 thread it looks like 200 may be more appropriate. And I just turned down one of those. Double drat.

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 17:00
Double drat.

:laugh :laugh

Anonimouse
23rd February 2017, 17:18
But inside means no expense for t&s anyway so 24month rule irrelevant

rob s
24th February 2017, 11:28
But inside means no expense for t&s anyway so 24month rule irrelevant

Good point. When I was inside previously and via a brolly (some years ago), I was travelling down and staying during the week. So the expenses point is moot.