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jmo21
24th February 2017, 12:27
First time I've seen a contract advertised where they are up front about the new PS IR35 stuff:

"Please be aware the client has decided this role is within IR35 legislation so the options are to switch to umbrella or have tax deducted at source and take home NetPay."

for a .net developer, £290-£300 per day, South Manchester, 6 Months

Patrick@Intouch
24th February 2017, 12:34
That's really useful, wouldn't it be nice if all end clients / agencies were that proactive.

It would certainly cut down a lot of the uncertainty in the market.

eek
24th February 2017, 12:38
That's really useful, wouldn't it be nice if all end clients / agencies were that proactive.

It would certainly cut down a lot of the uncertainty in the market.

I suspect it will become common place over the next year...

bobspud
24th February 2017, 13:16
I suspect it will become common place over the next year...

Agreed and once it does and they find that the market is not interested in taking them up on their kind offer. They will see the need to raise the rates

NORTHMAN
24th February 2017, 21:48
First time I've seen a contract advertised where they are up front about the new PS IR35 stuff:

"Please be aware the client has decided this role is within IR35 legislation so the options are to switch to umbrella or have tax deducted at source and take home NetPay."

for a .net developer, £290-£300 per day, South Manchester, 6 Months
It would be VERY interesting to know who that is for.

I've had some contact about a contract which is for a Public Sector client, and is apparently definitely outside IR35.

northernladuk
24th February 2017, 22:39
It would be VERY interesting to know who that is for.

I've had some contact about a contract which is for a Public Sector client, and is apparently definitely outside IR35.

Yes? And?

SlipTheJab
24th February 2017, 23:05
It would be VERY interesting to know who that is for.

I've had some contact about a contract which is for a Public Sector client, and is apparently definitely outside IR35.

Who told you that? If its the agent...

javadude
25th February 2017, 09:11
I got an email about a public sector contract from an agency and they didn't say inside or outside just that you would have to work via an umbrella company.

SlipTheJab
25th February 2017, 09:18
I got an email about a public sector contract from an agency and they didn't say inside or outside just that you would have to work via an umbrella company.

Mandatory brolly = inside, they are just trying to spin it rather than being explicit.

eek
25th February 2017, 10:10
Mandatory brolly = inside, they are just trying to spin it rather than being explicit.

+1 but it would be interesting to see the end clients view when you point http://forums.contractoruk.com/public-sector-ir35/119733-unite-demands-government-outlaws-umbrella-companies.html at them...

NORTHMAN
25th February 2017, 21:24
Yes? And?
And I am just imparting the news that a) some PS clients are (perhaps) wising up to the fact that their projects are currently failing because they can't attract contractors unless the contract is outside; and b) that 99% of agents are lying swines. Also your passive aggressive attitude doesn't wash.


Who told you that? If its the agent...
It was the agent, I'm well aware of the bullshit I may be being spun, I'd never sign anything without getitng it independantly checked, obviously.

SueEllen
25th February 2017, 21:36
And I am just imparting the news that a) some PS clients are (perhaps) wising up to the fact that their projects are currently failing because they can't attract contractors unless the contract is outside; and b) that 99% of agents are lying swines. Also your passive aggressive attitude doesn't wash.

He's just being a cynical bar-steward.

There are new posters who are also first the contractors who have come on here. They have had to have it explained to them at the rate they have been offered they are better off getting a permanent job.

NORTHMAN
25th February 2017, 22:07
He's just being a cynical bar-steward.

There are new posters who are also first the contractors who have come on here. They have had to have it explained to them at the rate they have been offered they are better off getting a permanent job.
Hah! For the last couple of weeks, one of the questions from agents has been "Why do you want to leave your current contract?", and my answer has been "Because if my current client decides we're inside, then with the taxes and loss of travel and accomodation expenses I'd be no better off than if I took a permie role somewhere."

Not all newbie posters are created equal :)

SueEllen
25th February 2017, 22:35
Hah! For the last couple of weeks, one of the questions from agents has been "Why do you want to leave your current contract?", and my answer has been "Because if my current client decides we're inside, then with the taxes and loss of travel and accomodation expenses I'd be no better off than if I took a permie role somewhere."


You should actually change that and state "I'd be much worse off than a permanent role somewhere." Then point out while contracting isn't all about the money being worse of is unfair when the role is insecure.




Not all newbie posters are created equal :)
Yeah we know - some are more stupid and like to troll compared to others.

SlipTheJab
26th February 2017, 00:45
+1 but it would be interesting to see the end clients view when you point http://forums.contractoruk.com/public-sector-ir35/119733-unite-demands-government-outlaws-umbrella-companies.html at them...

TBH If i was in a PS contract and inside IR35 my preference would be PAYE from the agency, don't see the point of paying 30 odd notes a week to yet another link in the chain especially as expenses are not allowed, hopefully this will trim the number of 'money for old rope' brollys that have sprung up to feed on these waters over the last few years...

SlipTheJab
26th February 2017, 00:47
Hah! For the last couple of weeks, one of the questions from agents has been "Why do you want to leave your current contract?", and my answer has been "Because if my current client decides we're inside, then with the taxes and loss of travel and accomodation expenses I'd be no better off than if I took a permie role somewhere."

Not all newbie posters are created equal :)

This cat knows his onions!

m0n1k3r
26th February 2017, 00:56
First time I've seen a contract advertised where they are up front about the new PS IR35 stuff:

"Please be aware the client has decided this role is within IR35 legislation so the options are to switch to umbrella or have tax deducted at source and take home NetPay."

for a .net developer, £290-£300 per day, South Manchester, 6 Months

That agency should be commended for their transparency and honesty.

m0n1k3r
26th February 2017, 01:00
+1 but it would be interesting to see the end clients view when you point http://forums.contractoruk.com/public-sector-ir35/119733-unite-demands-government-outlaws-umbrella-companies.html at them...

Somebody really ought to lobby the government to make it possible to contract as self-employed. It is commonplace (and financially beneficial) elsewhere, just not in the UK.

SueEllen
26th February 2017, 08:21
Somebody really ought to lobby the government to make it possible to contract as self-employed. It is commonplace (and financially beneficial) elsewhere, just not in the UK.

We have gone over this many times why it isn't done.

eek
26th February 2017, 12:07
Somebody really ought to lobby the government to make it possible to contract as self-employed. It is commonplace (and financially beneficial) elsewhere, just not in the UK.

That was banned back in the 70's due to Agencies abusing self-employment. The only thing that has changed since then is that agencies and other workers have found other means of simplifying things for themselves at the expense of the worker (supply teachers using Umbrella companies is just a recent example)...

Hence there is no chance we could be self employed....

jamesbrown
26th February 2017, 12:32
Somebody really ought to lobby the government to make it possible to contract as self-employed. It is commonplace (and financially beneficial) elsewhere, just not in the UK.

My clients are direct, but I personally wouldn't consider it (barring something more punitive than IR35) for the lack of limited liability and the restricted ability to tender for work. What's more likely is that, over time, all ways of working and sources of payment (wages, dividends, capital gains) will be rendered more equivalent for tax purposes, along the lines of dividend taxation. Read the latest report from the IFS to see the pressures on HMG for reform (directly calls for equivalent treatment of all modes of working), although some of it is politically quite naive.

RonBW
26th February 2017, 18:10
That was banned back in the 70's due to Agencies abusing self-employment.

Was it banned? I thought that it was just that legislation was introduced which meant that if you didn't pay the right tax the agency became liable for it and so the agency would generally now by custom refuse to engage a self employed worker.

jamesbrown
26th February 2017, 18:20
Was it banned? I thought that it was just that legislation was introduced which meant that if you didn't pay the right tax the agency became liable for it and so the agency would generally now by custom refuse to engage a self employed worker.

I think that's what eek means. A long and boring (depending on your persuasion) history can be found here:

Do contractors need limited companies? :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/00728.html)

teapot418
26th February 2017, 18:26
Good explanation here

Do contractors need limited companies? :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/00728.html)

"Up until the mid 1970s many contractors provided their services as self-employed workers taxed under Schedule D. Then came S38 of the Finance (No 2) Act 1975 which provided that individual contractors who contracted with agencies would, under certain conditions, be subject to PAYE and tax under Schedule E. As a result most contractors who used agencies formed their own limited companies so that it was their company rather than themselves individually which then contracted with the agency, and thus the application of S38 was avoided. Although S38 of the Finance (no 2) Act 1975, which is now S134 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, never applied to all individual contractors (i.e. non-limited company contractors) who used agencies, in practice it was in the agencies' interest to assume that it did and to apply PAYE across the board unless a limited company was used. It was also extremely difficult for the contractor to challenge this. Recent legislation has, however, changed the situation so that contracting direct with an agency (without a limited company) and being taxed under Schedule D is now again a practical possibility for some contractors, including for some contractors who, if they contracted using a limited company, would come within IR35."

So not banned as such, but made impractical.

If you're contracting direct, and the client is happy, it is still possible to be SchedD self employed.

eek
26th February 2017, 18:33
Good explanation here

Do contractors need limited companies? :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/00728.html)

"Up until the mid 1970s many contractors provided their services as self-employed workers taxed under Schedule D. Then came S38 of the Finance (No 2) Act 1975 which provided that individual contractors who contracted with agencies would, under certain conditions, be subject to PAYE and tax under Schedule E. As a result most contractors who used agencies formed their own limited companies so that it was their company rather than themselves individually which then contracted with the agency, and thus the application of S38 was avoided. Although S38 of the Finance (no 2) Act 1975, which is now S134 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, never applied to all individual contractors (i.e. non-limited company contractors) who used agencies, in practice it was in the agencies' interest to assume that it did and to apply PAYE across the board unless a limited company was used. It was also extremely difficult for the contractor to challenge this. Recent legislation has, however, changed the situation so that contracting direct with an agency (without a limited company) and being taxed under Schedule D is now again a practical possibility for some contractors, including for some contractors who, if they contracted using a limited company, would come within IR35."

So not banned as such, but made impractical.

If you're contracting direct, and the client is happy, it is still possible to be SchedD self employed.

You have to remember that contracting for most people (unless and until they have built up their contacts to the point that they no longer use agencies to find work) means using agencies to find contracts. And an agency cannot pay someone via Schedule D... Hence why I stated things the way I did...

True there are exceptions if you go direct but equally its a very limited part of the market and you are usually better off using a limited company...

teapot418
26th February 2017, 18:35
I think that's what eek means. A long and boring (depending on your persuasion) history can be found here:

Do contractors need limited companies? :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/00728.html)

Or what jb said (again!)

RonBW
26th February 2017, 18:56
Or what jb said (again!)

You are James Brown and I claim my five pounds.

jamesbrown
26th February 2017, 19:06
You are James Brown and I claim my five pounds.

I don't know about you, but I'm RonBW. Eek is the only non-sockie in this entire thread....I like talking to myself.... and so do I :D

eek
26th February 2017, 19:24
I don't know about you, but I'm RonBW. Eek is the only non-sockie in this entire thread....I like talking to myself.... and so do I :D

Nope I'm Malvolio's sockie - thought everyone knew that...

difficulttimes
27th February 2017, 10:50
So I read on Linkedin that this Thursday HMRC will release the most anticipated tool...