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View Full Version : PS Bodies unite to try to shelve IR35 plans



cojak
1st March 2017, 11:29
Public bodies unite to try to shelve IR35 changes :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012920public_bodies_unite_try_shelve_ir35_changes .html?utm_source=NL&utm_medium=News&utm_campaign=IR35)

Too little, too late and they're only trying to kick the can down the road.

This isn't to help contractors - it's to help their incompetence and ignorance, as they're up to their eyeballs in collapsing projects.

Tough titty guys, if you'd listened to us then you wouldn't find yourselves in the do-do now.

eek
1st March 2017, 11:33
Public bodies unite to try to shelve IR35 changes :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012920public_bodies_unite_try_shelve_ir35_changes .html?utm_source=NL&utm_medium=News&utm_campaign=IR35)

Too little, too late and they're only trying to kick the can down the road.

This isn't to help contractors - it's to help their incompetence and ignorance, as they're up to their eyeballs in collapsing projects.

Tough titty guys, if you'd listened to us then you wouldn't find yourselves in the do-do now.

Yep its too little, too late and the damage is already done. They would be better pushing for it to be implemented on April 6th and then spending April - June trying to recruit the appropriate people on the appropriate contracts....

cojak
1st March 2017, 11:38
The whining in that article could be heard over airliner jet engines.


“None of these changes would have been necessary if HMRC had properly enforced IR35 over the last 17 years. It is wrong to railroad badly planned legislation that effectively makes the public sector do HMRC’s job for them. It’s ill-thought through and is causing chaos.”


But SOLACE says a “further risk is that contractors may at short notice simply choose not to work for local authorities, putting the delivery of critical services such as social care and children’s services at risk.”

But I really love this bit...

"Many contractors are simply deciding to leave the public sector, or seeking an increase in their rates, which in turn is exacerbating skills shortages and financial pressure in an already stretched public sector.”

Like it's our fault.

Get real PS - you never had a problem using us before, and as the big consultancies say - don't take is personally, it's just business...

northernladuk
1st March 2017, 11:42
When you said tough titty I wasn't quite sure if you meant the PS bodies of the contractors but the post above makes it clearer..

Interesting comment though


"Many contractors are simply deciding to leave the public sector, or seeking an increase in their rates, which in turn is exacerbating skills shortages and financial pressure in an already stretched public sector.”

I don't see much of that happening from the posts on here. Maybe the view we have is skewed as those that don't really know what to do appear on here rather than deal with it but there are certainly plenty that aren't doing either of those it seems.

moggy
1st March 2017, 12:42
Public bodies unite to try to shelve IR35 changes :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012920public_bodies_unite_try_shelve_ir35_changes .html?utm_source=NL&utm_medium=News&utm_campaign=IR35)

Too little, too late and they're only trying to kick the can down the road.

This isn't to help contractors - it's to help their incompetence and ignorance, as they're up to their eyeballs in collapsing projects.

Tough titty guys, if you'd listened to us then you wouldn't find yourselves in the do-do now.

To be fair, you could say the same regarding contractors, they perhaps should of united last year or before when Umbrella's via SDC came under scrutiny. HMRC have played the slow game of divide and conquer it seems..

What was that old adage..?

Perhaps it should now be..

At first they came for the Umbrellas, but i wasn't working via an Umbrella so I stood by and watched..

They they came for the contractors in the Public sector PSC's,...

SueEllen
1st March 2017, 12:46
To be fair, you could say the same regarding contractors, they perhaps should of united last year or before when Umbrella's via SDC came under scrutiny. HMRC have played the slow game of divide and conquer it seems..

What was that old adage..?

Perhaps it should now be..

At first they came for the Umbrellas, but i wasn't working via an Umbrella so I stood by and watched..



Actually the rules over a year ago weren't clear on who they were targeting so lots of us helped the protagonists on here with information to put in responses. HMRC then decided just apply the rules to umbrella companies as it was easier.

northernladuk
1st March 2017, 12:53
To be fair, you could say the same regarding contractors, they perhaps should of united last year or before when Umbrella's via SDC came under scrutiny. HMRC have played the slow game of divide and conquer it seems..
..

This was never going to work. Look at the number of people only just learning this is happening to them now. The numbers that were aware a year ago and cared about uniting were tiny and most of those will have just left as per the advice back them.

notahappybunny
1st March 2017, 13:16
This was never going to work. Look at the number of people only just learning this is happening to them now. The numbers that were aware a year ago and cared about uniting were tiny and most of those will have just left as per the advice back them.

Who's responsibility was it to make contractors aware or was it just down to themselves to find out?

First I heard was a call from the agency about two weeks ago telling me I had to fold my Ltd co and go via their umbrella post 5th April.......Out of "loyalty" I turned down a very tempting Private sector contract only a week or so earlier.

malvolio
1st March 2017, 13:22
Who's responsibility was it to make contractors aware or was it just down to themselves to find out?

First I heard was a call from the agency about two weeks ago telling me I had to fold my Ltd co and go via their umbrella post 5th April.......Out of "loyalty" I turned down a very tempting Private sector contract only a week or so earlier.
It's been out there - very loudly in some areas - since at least the last Autumn Statement from Hammond...

As for responsibility - you're a contractor, it's up to you to keep and eye out for anything that affects your business.

northernladuk
1st March 2017, 13:38
Who's responsibility was it to make contractors aware or was it just down to themselves to find out?
.

It's your business so that would be you.

adubya
1st March 2017, 13:50
Who's responsibility was it to make contractors aware or was it just down to themselves to find out?

First I heard was a call from the agency about two weeks ago telling me I had to fold my Ltd co and go via their umbrella post 5th April.......Out of "loyalty" I turned down a very tempting Private sector contract only a week or so earlier.


The changes have been discussed on here for ages. It's everyone's responsibility to keep track of legislative changes coming down the line which will impact their business. Dipping in here every now and again is one way of doing that.

SouthernManc78
1st March 2017, 14:14
To be fair, you could say the same regarding contractors, they perhaps should of united last year or before when Umbrella's via SDC came under scrutiny. HMRC have played the slow game of divide and conquer it seems..



If a organisation like PCG/IPSE doesn't have enough weight behind it to make government sit up and take notice then I doubt some contractors uniting would make much difference unfortunately.

moggy
1st March 2017, 14:20
If a organisation like PCG/IPSE doesn't have enough weight behind it to make government sit up and take notice then I doubt some contractors uniting would make much difference unfortunately.

It wasn't just the contractors that needed to come together. Agencies went all cold on SDC once they found out they wouldn't be involved in the liability. PSC's didn't care about Brollies and now the private sector is turning its nose up at Public Sector contractors. the market as a whole has strength, divided its weak. Agencies, end clients and contractors.

MrMarkyMark
1st March 2017, 14:21
Who's responsibility was it to make contractors aware or was it just down to themselves to find out?

First I heard was a call from the agency about two weeks ago telling me I had to fold my Ltd co and go via their umbrella post 5th April.......Out of "loyalty" I turned down a very tempting Private sector contract only a week or so earlier.

:facepalm:





:suicide:

gables
1st March 2017, 14:25
Who's responsibility was it to make contractors aware or was it just down to themselves to find out?

First I heard was a call from the agency about two weeks ago telling me I had to fold my Ltd co and go via their umbrella post 5th April.......Out of "loyalty" I turned down a very tempting Private sector contract only a week or so earlier.

Do you still have the details of that role I might be interested even if you aren't :wink

DotasScandal
1st March 2017, 14:57
If a organisation like PCG/IPSE doesn't have enough weight behind it to make government sit up and take notice then I doubt some contractors uniting would make much difference unfortunately.

Stating the obvious, I know, but the only way contractors can have any weight on Gov is by voting with their feet (and their wallets).
IPSE is a club where they have tea with Gov every once in a while - nothing of any consequence is to be expected to come from it.

Andy Hallett
1st March 2017, 15:07
There is a lot of anger in the Public Sector that this is being imposed on them. Very much seen as HMRC looking after themselves and leaving everyone else to deal with (and pay for) it.

seeourbee
1st March 2017, 15:29
Told you they work in silos ...

seeourbee
1st March 2017, 15:32
IPSE is a club where they have tea with Gov every once in a while - nothing of any consequence is to be expected to come from it.

Correct. They just love talking and getting the opportunity to visit number 10. I certainly don't need them for that, I just take my own photos ...

malvolio
1st March 2017, 16:03
Correct. They just love talking and getting the opportunity to visit number 10. I certainly don't need them for that, I just take my own photos ...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170301/264864c30b6b4a7b26ec3e77d920193a.jpg
Change the record, please. Not just IPSE but REC, APSCo, ACAEW, IOD, FSB, assorted Public Sector representative bodies and dozens of others have told HMG it won't work. They aren't listening. Blaming the ones doing the telling is simply pointless - unless you have a better approach of course.

seeourbee
1st March 2017, 16:08
Well, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't IPSE born out of IR35?

So if that was their sole purpose, then no sir I won't change the record.

eek
1st March 2017, 16:11
Well, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't IPSE born out of IR35?

So if that was their sole purpose, then no sir I won't change the record.

I think the argument is that IPSE is far more than IR35 nowadays and a lot of the people they are targeting to join have nothing to do with IR35...

The actual point here is as Mal says everyone has stated this is a bad idea yet HMG are running with it.

It's going to be very interesting to see what the budget brings...

SueEllen
1st March 2017, 16:22
I think the argument is that IPSE is far more than IR35 nowadays and a lot of the people they are targeting to join have nothing to do with IR35...

The actual point here is as Mal says everyone has stated this is a bad idea yet HMG are running with it.

It's going to be very interesting to see what the budget brings...

Public Sector departments need to make cuts....

londonlad
1st March 2017, 16:45
Public Sector departments need to make cuts....

to essential/critical public service to ensure people die painfully.....

SueEllen
1st March 2017, 16:49
Public Sector departments need to make cuts....

to essential/critical public service to ensure people die painfully.....

Only if you are old, sick, homeless and/or poor.

Don't fall into those groups...

eek
1st March 2017, 16:55
Public Sector departments need to make cuts....

I didn't mean local council budgets but the Spring Budget which seemingly has some tax changes coming as referred to elsewhere.

Local councils are still cutting everything they possibly can to keep the legal required services (just about) going

DotasScandal
1st March 2017, 16:56
Public Sector departments need to make cuts.... to essential/critical public service to ensure people die painfully.....

And to subsequently ensure that full-scale privatization gets greenlighted?

DotasScandal
1st March 2017, 17:07
The actual point here is as Mal says everyone has stated this is a bad idea yet HMG are running with it.

I know many here do not quite connect the dots, but that whole bold "FU" attitude on the part of HMRC/HMG/Treasury to anything and anyone is a direct continuation of the success of their APN gamble back in 2014.
Not only were Gauke and co vindicated in their belief that they can screw contractors senseless without triggering much of a protest, they started thinking they can do whatever they like without a care for accountability to anyone.
This trajectory is going to be very difficult to change.

eek
1st March 2017, 17:14
I know many here do not quite connect the dots, but that whole bold "FU" attitude on the part of HMRC/HMG/Treasury to anything and anyone is a direct continuation of the success of their APN gamble back in 2014.
Not only were Gauke and co vindicated in their belief that they can screw contractors senseless without triggering much of a protest, they started thinking they can do whatever they like without a care for accountability to anyone.
This trajectory is going to be very difficult to change.

APN wasn't targeted at contractors - or at least it wasn't targeted at contractors who I want to be associated with... Note carefully picking on words there...

You are right that this all starts in 2014 though - but its not the APN that is the start its the Agency Reporting Requirements which was the first building block of this attack....

DotasScandal
1st March 2017, 18:00
APN wasn't targeted at contractors - or at least it wasn't targeted at contractors who I want to be associated with... Note carefully picking on words there...
You are right that this all starts in 2014 though - but its not the APN that is the start its the Agency Reporting Requirements which was the first building block of this attack....

I note your careful choice of words, and that "good contractors" vs "bad contractors" mentality might be just why we are getting shafted with such regularity. HMG don't even need to divide and rule us - we divide ourselves just fine.
And I did not say APNs were the start, what I said is that it emboldened our "friends" into trying policies they would have never dared before.

malvolio
1st March 2017, 18:32
APNs, as I understand it, are not aimed at any one group in particular, only at anyone that HMRC believes owes tax and there is a risk it won't get paid for some reason.

Semtex
1st March 2017, 18:46
I note your careful choice of words, and that "good contractors" vs "bad contractors" mentality might be just why we are getting shafted with such regularity. HMG don't even need to divide and rule us - we divide ourselves just fine.
And I did not say APNs were the start, what I said is that it emboldened our "friends" into trying policies they would have never dared before.

DS, eek always takes a superior position, makes you wonder why if he is so bloody brilliant why he needs to spend hours on a forum telling everyone how great he is and belittling other posters. Along with his various sidekicks it can be really off putting for new forum members.

We are all contractors earning a living, some with more knowledge, experience and business acumen than the others, we as a community should try and elevate knowledge amongst us, not sneer and laugh at the less knowledgeable.

eek
1st March 2017, 19:31
DS, eek always takes a superior position, makes you wonder why if he is so bloody brilliant why he needs to spend hours on a forum telling everyone how great he is and belittling other posters. Along with his various sidekicks it can be really off putting for new forum members.

We are all contractors earning a living, some with more knowledge, experience and business acumen than the others, we as a community should try and elevate knowledge amongst us, not sneer and laugh at the less knowledgeable.

To be blunt it was the willingness of contractors to use any means possible to avoid being hit by ir35 that is the root cause of this mess.

DS and others claim it's the fact we didn't support them that has created this mess. Sadly I believe the fact people joined half baked tax avoidance schemes is the reason why this new clamp down is so much tighter than the previous ones.

Semtex
1st March 2017, 20:00
To be blunt it was the willingness of contractors to use any means possible to avoid being hit by ir35 that is the root cause of this mess.

DS and others claim it's the fact we didn't support them that has created this mess. Sadly I believe the fact people joined half baked tax avoidance schemes is the reason why this new clamp down is so much tighter than the previous ones.

all due respect that is rubbish.

The IR35 proposal was flawed from the start hence why many went into these schemes because of the fear!!
The 'tax avoidance' schemes were promoted by numerous well respected accountants and consultancies
HMRC had decades to resolve the situation and failed to act

you need to re evaluate your focus in my opinion

DotasScandal
1st March 2017, 20:05
APNs, as I understand it, are not aimed at any one group in particular, only at anyone that HMRC believes owes tax but has a case they know they cannot defeat through the courts.

FTFY

MrMarkyMark
1st March 2017, 20:07
To be blunt it was the willingness of contractors to use any means possible to avoid being hit by ir35 that is the root cause of this mess.

DS and others claim it's the fact we didn't support them that has created this mess. Sadly I believe the fact people joined half baked tax avoidance schemes is the reason why this new clamp down is so much tighter than the previous ones.

I was offered all of these schemes, at some point, from very early on.

"Everyone" was doing it, "can't go wrong" etc etc ad infinite-um.

I decided they were too risky for my business given 90% of my family and step family are all self employed and had been as I was growing up.

Both the younger ones and me have business's in IT, Graphic Design and Property Management respectively.

The old man laughed when I described these type of schemes and suggested HMRC would be on the case before long (he had his own building company).

Of course its all about education, either gleaned by others, or your own graft :smile

malvolio
1st March 2017, 22:28
FTFY
But both wrong and naïve. They may well be applied far more widely than was originally intended (about which I am actually unconvinced), but the sole idea is to secure tax revenues that are under dispute and that may "disappear" the final position is resolved. That is not actually that unreasonable. What is unreasonable is imposing it on people who have no way to pay them pending that resolution. But this is an old argument, and has no place in this context.

And FWIW, while I very rarely agree with eek, on this one point I do. You may have been looking for a non-IR35 solution, but that does not to my mind mean you suddenly pay significantly less tax as a result.

Semtex
1st March 2017, 22:43
I was offered all of these schemes, at some point, from very early on.

"Everyone" was doing it, "can't go wrong" etc etc ad infinite-um.

I decided they were too risky for my business given 90% of my family and step family are all self employed and had been as I was growing up.

Both the younger ones and me have business's in IT, Graphic Design and Property Management respectively.

The old man laughed when I described these type of schemes and suggested HMRC would be on the case before long (he had his own building company).

Of course its all about education, either gleaned by others, or your own graft :smile


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

DotasScandal
1st March 2017, 23:11
but the sole idea is to secure tax revenues that are under dispute and that may "disappear" the final position is resolved. That is not actually that unreasonable.

With respect, I think you are being naive with regard to the motivation. Ask anyone familiar with the matter, and you will find that
1/ APNs are routinely issued for tax that the "customer" had no idea was "in dispute" (sometimes going as far back as 2004!) - simply because they haven't heard a blip to that effect from HMRC
2/ HMRC is absolutely not interested in seeing anything "resolved", in fact quite the opposite - as evidenced by the stalling tactics deployed to prevent any EBT case (for example) from actually making it to tribual (some providers have been asking HMRC for closure notices (a prerequisite for FTT) since 2013).

A much simpler interpretation is that once a "customer" has been impoverished by way of APN(s), there is generally no money left to fund a FTT case, hence the matter is never determined by the courts. You're guilty by default, the money sits with HMRC --> Problem solved.

MrMarkyMark
2nd March 2017, 07:14
Semtex?
I doubt you can blow your own nose :laugh

rubbish....leaving public sector....boring......arrogant.....schemes and blah...blah...contracting for years son...blah...

And yes I consider you were a total MUG when you joined your tax avoidance scheme.

HTH

eek
2nd March 2017, 07:23
But both wrong and naïve. They may well be applied far more widely than was originally intended (about which I am actually unconvinced), but the sole idea is to secure tax revenues that are under dispute and that may "disappear" the final position is resolved. That is not actually that unreasonable. What is unreasonable is imposing it on people who have no way to pay them pending that resolution. But this is an old argument, and has no place in this context.

And FWIW, while I very rarely agree with eek, on this one point I do. You may have been looking for a non-IR35 solution, but that does not to my mind mean you suddenly pay significantly less tax as a result.

To be honest half the time I pick an argument with you for the fun of it....

Semtex
2nd March 2017, 07:41
Semtex?
I doubt you can blow your own nose :laugh


And yes I consider you were a total MUG when you joined your tax avoidance scheme.

HTH

Good one...

What makes you think I was in a scheme? I was not...

Reading your posts you have not offered any constructive views or help, just how great you are as all your family are 'self employed'.

really rather tedious. But I will leave it now.

Enjoy your excellent contracting career, but going forward please think of all the new forum members who rely on decent experienced contractors to assist them?

eek
2nd March 2017, 07:46
Good one...

What makes you think I was in a scheme? I was not...

Reading your posts you have not offered any constructive views or help, just how great you are as all your family are 'self employed'.

really rather tedious. But I will leave it now.

Enjoy your excellent contracting career, but going forward please think of all the new forum members who rely on decent experienced contractors to assist them?

We do. We also ignore or treat with appropriate contempt new posters who tell us how to do things...

Oh and look who wrote the FAQ that sits at the top of this forum. I don't notice your name on it...

Semtex
2nd March 2017, 07:56
We do. We also ignore or treat with appropriate contempt new posters who tell us how to do things...

Oh and look who wrote the FAQ that sits at the top of this forum. I don't notice your name on it...

Thank you Sir Eek (walks away backwards whilst flailing himself with a thorn bush saying "not worthy")

MrMarkyMark
2nd March 2017, 08:21
Good one...

What makes you think I was in a scheme? I was not...

Reading your posts you have not offered any constructive views or help, just how great you are as all your family are 'self employed'.

really rather tedious. But I will leave it now.

Enjoy your excellent contracting career, but going forward please think of all the new forum members who rely on decent experienced contractors to assist them?

I've actually reviewed your posts and fail to see anything constructive in any of them unfortunately.
Plenty of whinging and bleating but nothing useful, happy to be proved wrong.

The main point, of that last post, was we were educated as we were growing up in that way of freelance working.
The secondary point was the fact that my old man thought the schemes were a load of old pony and he worked in construction.

Anyway Ill leave it there :rolleyes:

seeourbee
2nd March 2017, 08:56
My God you guys have a lot of time on your hands ...

fool
2nd March 2017, 09:23
But both wrong and naïve. They may well be applied far more widely than was originally intended (about which I am actually unconvinced), but the sole idea is to secure tax revenues that are under dispute and that may "disappear" the final position is resolved. That is not actually that unreasonable. What is unreasonable is imposing it on people who have no way to pay them pending that resolution. But this is an old argument, and has no place in this context.

And FWIW, while I very rarely agree with eek, on this one point I do. You may have been looking for a non-IR35 solution, but that does not to my mind mean you suddenly pay significantly less tax as a result.

He's probably right though but not in the way he thinks. We sit here on our high horses looking down on the bums in seat contractors who don't keep themselves informed and by doing so we shoot ourselves in both feet.

Personally I've informed my fellow contractors of just how badly this might turn out for us and they all stared the client out until there was a big fat exception carved out for our group. We asserted our position strongly and we did it early and it looks to have been worked out.

The parts of the PS client I'm not involved in? Well I've only heard about massive in determinations so far.

teapot418
2nd March 2017, 09:31
We do. We also ignore or treat with appropriate contempt new posters who tell us how to do things...


Who's "we"? :confused:

Personally, I try to be constructive and helpful regardless of how new or ill-informed the poster is.

rob s
2nd March 2017, 09:34
and I thought poker forums were bad

RonBW
2nd March 2017, 09:36
We sit here on our high horses looking down on the bums in seat contractors who don't keep themselves informed and by doing so we shoot ourselves in both feet.

First they came for the loan users, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I was not a loan user.
Then they came for the umbrella companies, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not an umbrella user.
Then they came for the bum on seat contractors, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not a BoS contractor.
Then they came for the public sector workers, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I'm smart enough to be able to move to private sector easily.

Then it was March 8th 2017, and I'm not celebrating any more.

eek
2nd March 2017, 09:36
Who's "we"? :confused:

Personally, I try to be constructive and helpful regardless of how new or ill-informed the poster is.

So do I up to the point the poster starts continually trolling the forum with the same (off-topic) point...

northernladuk
2nd March 2017, 09:38
and I thought poker forums were bad

I got it all in with a AK against a guy with AQ a couple of nights ago and he river'd the Q. Last night on the final table I shove 4 BB with KK and a guy turns A3 and rivers the A. Why is it always on the river?... but yes. I would't dare post any of that on a poker forum lol...

northernladuk
2nd March 2017, 09:38
Who's "we"? :confused:

Personally, I try to be constructive and helpful regardless of how new or ill-informed the poster is.

Me too.......

barrydidit
2nd March 2017, 09:46
I got it all in with a AK against a guy with AQ a couple of nights ago and he river'd the Q. Last night on the final table I shove 4 BB with KK and a guy turns A3 and rivers the A. Why is it always on the river?... but yes. I would't dare post any of that on a poker forum lol...

:confused:

You had an ace queen by the river a couple of nights ago? I wouldn't have posted it here either if I were you.

teapot418
2nd March 2017, 09:48
Me too.......

:laugh

breaktwister
2nd March 2017, 09:55
First they came for the loan users, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I was not a loan user.
Then they came for the umbrella companies, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not an umbrella user.
Then they came for the bum on seat contractors, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not a BoS contractor.
Then they came for the public sector workers, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I'm smart enough to be able to move to private sector easily.

Then it was March 8th 2017, and I'm not celebrating any more.

This is how the government implements most actions that would otherwise bring protest or legal challenge. They slowly establish new norms so as not to trigger the realisation of loss of liberty. There is a reason why the tortoise is the symbol of the Fabian Society.

northernladuk
2nd March 2017, 10:03
:laugh

I didn't say I was any good at it :igmc:

DotasScandal
2nd March 2017, 10:32
First they came for the loan users, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I was not a loan user.
Then they came for the umbrella companies, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not an umbrella user.
Then they came for the bum on seat contractors, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not a BoS contractor.
Then they came for the public sector workers, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I'm smart enough to be able to move to private sector easily.

Then it was March 8th 2017, and I'm not celebrating any more.

Spot-on summary of the UK Contractor's mentality, thank you.

Of course, the above can be broken down into further categories, pretty much ad infinitum.
Contractors in this country are always, ALWAYS happy to splinter into ever-tiner factions, as long as it gives them a feeling of superiority oveir their "lesser" fellow contractors. Nowhere is this better demonstrated than on these forums.

DotasScandal
2nd March 2017, 10:35
This is how the government implements most actions that would otherwise bring protest or legal challenge. They slowly establish new norms so as not to trigger the realisation of loss of liberty. There is a reason why the tortoise is the symbol of the Fabian Society.

Our symbol should be a frog sitting cozily in a warm bath, totally oblivious to the temperature being increased slowly but surely.
(well, not so slowly now)

eek
2nd March 2017, 10:43
First they came for the loan users, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I was not a loan user.
Then they came for the umbrella companies, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not an umbrella user.
Then they came for the bum on seat contractors, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I am not a BoS contractor.
Then they came for the public sector workers, and I celebrated - I was left alone because I'm smart enough to be able to move to private sector easily.

Then it was March 8th 2017, and I'm not celebrating any more.

1) nope - couldn't argue that - once people were tricked into those schemes there was no argument to support them... What I have done since 2002 is state that joining a scheme is a bad idea and will lead to pain.
2) believe me I argued but its a annoyingly small jump in logic from 3 month temp contract (you can't claim expenses) to a 3 month temp contract via an umbrella - it was a losing battle. What we did win was the fact personal service companies were not hit by the same rules - the IR35 amendment was a clue to the next plan but wasn't part of the initial discussion document.
3) Where? I've not seen a direct attack on bum on seat contractors.
4) Hmm - everyone has complained about this but HMG isn't listening...

eek
2nd March 2017, 10:47
Our symbol should be a frog sitting cozily in a warm bath, totally oblivious to the temperature being increased slowly but surely.
(well, not so slowly now)

I'm not oblivious I just know that certain things can be fought and certain things are going to occur regardless (it's why I fought hard on the PSC expenses issue but not the public sector changes).

Now if you want to be useful take that NHS letter I linked to earlier and send it to a few people. Spreading that far and wide would be a better use of our time today than arguing and pointless point scoring here.

RonBW
2nd March 2017, 10:53
1) nope - couldn't argue that - once people were tricked into those schemes there was no argument to support them... What I have done since 2002 is state that joining a scheme is a bad idea and will lead to pain.
2) believe me I argued but its a annoyingly small jump in logic from 3 month temp contract (you can't claim expenses) to a 3 month temp contract via an umbrella - it was a losing battle. What we did win was the fact personal service companies were not hit by the same rules - the IR35 amendment was a clue to the next plan but wasn't part of the initial discussion document.
3) Where? I've not seen a direct attack on bum on seat contractors.
4) Hmm - everyone has complained about this but HMG isn't listening...

You seem to have interpreted my post as some kind of personal thing aimed at you - it was not aimed at any specific individual.

eek
2nd March 2017, 12:12
You seem to have interpreted my post as some kind of personal thing aimed at you - it was not aimed at any specific individual.

Nope I just thought it was worth replying to.

It's interesting to see who is thanking / liking which replies....

teapot418
2nd March 2017, 13:00
I'm not oblivious I just know that certain things can be fought and certain things are going to occur regardless (it's why I fought hard on the PSC expenses issue but not the public sector changes).

Now if you want to be useful take that NHS letter I linked to earlier and send it to a few people. Spreading that far and wide would be a better use of our time today than arguing and pointless point scoring here.

Shared on a locums forum (although it is a bit :tumble: there!)

DaveB
2nd March 2017, 13:06
Shared on a locums forum (although it is a bit :tumble: there!)

Wrapped it up in a short article on LinkdIn.

Already done one piece on the IR35 changes that got a good response, so tagged it as a follow up on that.

RonBW
2nd March 2017, 13:22
It's interesting to see who is thanking / liking which replies....

:laugh