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Eirikur
6th March 2017, 15:36
I'ms sure this is what Brexiteers had in mind when voting to leave

Vauxhall-Opel sold by GM to Peugeot-Citroen - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39175740#comment_126511437)

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 15:38
I'ms sure this is what Brexiteers had in mind when voting to leave

Vauxhall-Opel sold by GM to Peugeot-Citroen - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39175740#comment_126511437)

What are you gibbering about? This deal has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
Moron!

:eyes

Mordac
6th March 2017, 15:40
What are you gibbering about? This deal has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
Moron!

:eyes

Don't spoil his fun Shaun, that sort of news is proper :winker: material to his ilk...

Eirikur
6th March 2017, 15:40
What are you gibbering about? This deal has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
Moron!

:eyes

Wait and see

BlasterBates
6th March 2017, 15:40
Sounds like Ellesmere Port will be closed and they'll manufacture exclusively for the UK market in Luton.

Mordac
6th March 2017, 15:43
Sounds like Ellesmere Port will be closed and they'll manufacture exclusively for the UK market in Luton.

I can't wait for the new Vauxhall Niqab, Hijab and Burka. :banana:

eek
6th March 2017, 15:43
Wait and see

So a factory is going to be closed due to company merger and resultant factory over capacity....

Don't know what's that got to do with Brexit I can think of a lot of reasons for closing down all the GM plants down....

PurpleGorilla
6th March 2017, 15:44
It's a clever move - it puts part of the PSA business on the outside of the EU with the opportunity to play the ball in or out depending on the strategic advantage.

AtW
6th March 2017, 15:54
This deal has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.

Brexit makes it a no brainer to close UK plant instead of one in mainland EU.

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 15:56
Brexit makes it a no brainer to close UK plant instead of one in mainland EU.

And Brexit makes it a no-brainer for a French company to buy a British plant I suppose?

:laugh

vetran
6th March 2017, 15:56
Typical Bremainer having trouble keeping up.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/119972-le-shovette.html#post2382748

AtW
6th March 2017, 16:00
And Brexit makes it a no-brainer for a French company to buy a British plant I suppose?

They are buying Vauxhall-Opel, which happens to have a UK plant, take a look at the rest:

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/125F7/production/_94955257_opel_vauxhall_production_624.png

Which one would you close to make "synergy savings" from the purchase?

UK plans is a goner now:

"Next year PSA will decide where it will make the next generation of Astra cars currently made in the UK against the background of Brexit negotiations."

It won't survive, thanks to Brexiters.

GreyWolf
6th March 2017, 16:09
GM hasn't made a profit in Europe for 15 years so the sale has nothing to do with Brexit. Also, Peugeot shut down the Rootes Group factories whilst the UK was in the EU so membership didn't really help then.

sal
6th March 2017, 16:11
PSA has said many countries are reluctant to buy French cars and the Opel brand will help them expand into new markets.

Glad to see they acknowledge that fact :D


What are you gibbering about? This deal has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
Moron!

:eyes

I'm sure the prospect of import/export tariffs in a business that relies heavily on import/export in the supply chain will play no part in the PSA decision which plants to cut down...

AtW
6th March 2017, 16:14
GM hasn't made a profit in Europe for 15 years so the sale has nothing to do with Brexit. Also, Peugeot shut down the Rootes Group factories whilst the UK was in the EU so membership didn't really help then.

Sale - may not have been, but which plant would be shutdown now: one in UK or one in EU?

SueEllen
6th March 2017, 16:17
Sale - may not have been, but which plant would be shutdown now: one in UK or one in EU?

You close the one in the country with the fewest workers rights...

vetran
6th March 2017, 16:18
depends if we impose tariffs

Opel-Vauxhall European sales figures (http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/opel-vauxhall/)


The importance of the UK market for General Motors has increased in the last few years, as the ratio Opel vs. Vauxhall has been around 3:1 between 2001 and 2011: Opel taking around 75% of European sales and Vauxhall taking around 25%. However, in 2013 and 2014 more than 30% of all combined Opel-Vauxhall sales were right-hand drive vehicles registered

AtW
6th March 2017, 16:20
You close the one in the country with the fewest workers rights...

So they will be closing it in Poland?

sal
6th March 2017, 16:20
You close the one in the country with the fewest workers rights...

That would be Britastan...

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 16:24
I'm sure the prospect of import/export tariffs in a business that relies heavily on import/export in the supply chain will play no part in the PSA decision which plants to cut down...

And I am sure that their global strategy includes entirely removing those plants that manufacture all of their right hand drive vehicles.

:eyes

sal
6th March 2017, 16:24
depends if we impose tariffs

What if the EU imposes tariffs? Like for instance to protect German/French/Italian car/parts manufacturers...

sal
6th March 2017, 16:31
And I am sure that their global strategy includes entirely removing those plants that manufacture all of their right hand drive vehicles.

:eyes

80% of the UK plants production is export to EU, They only have to keep the bare minimum serving the UK market.

Also the supply chain for car manufacturing often involves multiple border crossings, while individual components are being slowly assembled in the more complex pieces that make the final product. It might very well be cheaper to do the whole process within the EU and export the final product to the UK, instead of dealing with all the crap.

Last but not least sacking people in UK is cheaper than doing so in France/Germany etc. coupled with a PR nightmare if they choice to sack EU workers over UK.

All of the above compounds, you might want to take off your rose tinted glasses.

sasguru
6th March 2017, 16:33
depends if we impose tariffs

Opel-Vauxhall European sales figures (http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/opel-vauxhall/)

60% of the car parts used in UK factories come from abroad, mainly Europe.
Some supply chains are so complex, parts cross and recross the border several times.
If we impose tariffs, the paperwork alone will be so onerous, most manufacturers would find it cheaper to build abroad and export here, even with tariffs. :laugh:laugh

sasguru
6th March 2017, 16:34
Also the supply chain for car manufacturing often involves multiple border crossings, while individual components are being slowly assembled in the more complex pieces that make the final product. It might very well be cheaper to do the whole process within the EU and export the final product to the UK, instead of dealing with all the crap.



60% of the car parts used in UK factories come from abroad, mainly Europe.
Some supply chains are so complex, parts cross and recross the border several times.
If we impose tariffs, the paperwork alone will be so onerous, most manufacturers would find it cheaper to build abroad and export here, even with tariffs. :laugh:laugh

SNAP.

One good thing about Brexit. It's made me completely intolerant of thickos in normal life. I used to underestimate how many there were. :laugh:laugh

vetran
6th March 2017, 16:38
SNAP.

One good thing about Brexit. It's made me completely intolerant of thickos in normal life. I used to underestimate how many there were. :laugh:laugh

that's alright I never underestimate how many arrogant feckwits there are, there is always assguru there to remind how low they go.

sasguru
6th March 2017, 16:43
that's alright I never underestimate how many arrogant feckwits there are, there is always assguru there to remind how low they go.

Some real compulsory education is going to happen in this country, relating to simple economics.
The best kind, the kind that hurts, the kind you don't forget.

But hey don't take my word for it.
The leader of "Economists for Brexit", Patrick Minford, predicts Brexit will essentially end manufacturing in Britain.
I agree with him.
Where we diverge is that he thinks it's a good idea.

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:00
And I am sure that their global strategy includes entirely removing those plants that manufacture all of their right hand drive vehicles. :eyes

Peugeot got it's own right hand models, why compete with themselves? They'll simplify production of Open brand by shutting down UK plant.

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:04
Peugeot got it's own right hand models, why compete with themselves?

Because, as they themselves openly admit, nobody outwith France really wants to buy French cars.

:laugh

sasguru
6th March 2017, 17:08
Because, as they themselves openly admit, nobody outwith France really wants to buy French cars.

:laugh

Wrong, yet again.:laugh:laugh

PSA Group 2016 sales rise 5.8 percent, boosted by Iran and European recovery | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-peugeot-results-idUKKBN14V0JU)

Peugeot/Citroen have turned the corner and have started to make some very good cars now.

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:16
Peugeot/Citroen have turned the corner and have started to make some very good cars now.

Yeah, a 5.8% "surge" from a rock-bottom position is a giant indication of progress. :laugh :laugh

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:18
Because, as they themselves openly admit, nobody outwith France really wants to buy French cars.

They were probably talking about Germany, in which case buying a German brand makes perfect sense.

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:19
Yeah, a 5.8% "surge" from a rock-bottom position is a giant indication of progress. :laugh :laugh

5.8% increase in sales for a big ticket item manufacturer is a very good result.

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:20
5.8% increase in sales for a big ticket item manufacturer is a very good result.

I stand corrected. So whereas before they were only selling 20 vehicles a year outside of garlic-la-la-land, they have now bumped that figure up to 21!

Way to go PSA!!!

:laugh

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:21
I stand corrected. So whereas before they were only selling 20 vehicles a year outside of garlic-la-la-land, they have now bumped that figure up to 21!

"PSA's global sales volume rose to 3.146 million vehicles in 2016 from 2.973 million the previous year, the Paris-based company said in a statement on Wednesday. "

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:23
"PSA's global sales volume rose to 3.146 million vehicles in 2016 from 2.973 million the previous year, the Paris-based company said in a statement on Wednesday. "

Awesome...............on a planet of over 6 billion people they have increased the number of units sold by 170k or so.
Impressive as fook!!! :laugh

DimPrawn
6th March 2017, 17:23
The new Vauxhall Brexit, due for launch in 2020.

http://www.nationwidemobility.co.uk/uploads/Pimp_my_scooter.jpg

The car Brexiters have been waiting for!

:happy

sasguru
6th March 2017, 17:23
Can anyone remember the last British-owned mass car manufacturer? :laugh:laugh

Was it Rover more than 2o years ago? Yikes.

vetran
6th March 2017, 17:25
yeah can see why

https://www.lovemoney.com/news/15619/britains-most-unreliable-cars


I used to work in the motor-finance trade, and what strikes me is how closely this statistical survey matches what industry insiders say. In particular, 'wise insiders' will tell you to buy German or Japanese cars for reliability, while avoiding French cars like la peste (the plague).

What's more, this also closely reflects my own experiences as a car buyer. The most reliable car my wife has ever owned was her 1997 Volkswagen Polo, which was an absolute joy to drive and run.

On the other hand, the absolute worst car my spouse has ever owned is her 2003 Renault Megane Scenic. While it scores well for its engine performance and driving comfort, her Renault has an awful record for electrical reliability. Indeed, we've spent thousands of pounds replacing faulty electrics since we bought my wife's Renault in 2004.

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:25
Awesome...............on a planet of over 6 billion people they have increased the number of units sold by 170k or so. Impressive as fook!!! :laugh

5.6% growth in an established mature cut-throat competition industry of big ticket commodity items this is very impressive.

What was sales growth in your business last year?

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:27
What was sales growth in your business last year?

I am not a salesman, I am an engineer.
I continue to sell my niche skills at the top end of the market.

:smokin

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:31
I am not a salesman, I am an engineer.

So if you don't know the subject area, why are you dissing achievements in it?

sasguru
6th March 2017, 17:33
I am not a salesman, I am an engineer.


Oh another "engineer" like Churchy.:laugh:rollin:
Have you ever had any occupation that didn't involve suckling on the tit of the nanny state?
You'll experience the big bad world soon enough when Brexit bites on the public purse and your ex-squaddie sinecure will have to be canned :laugh:laugh

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:34
So if you don't know the subject area, why are you dissing achievements in it?

Who said I don't know the subject area?

Are you involved with the automotive industry? Or does your knowledge of that rank right up there with your knowledge of how to miss the UK property boat?

:wink

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:36
Have you ever had any occupation that didn't involve suckling on the tit of the nanny state?


I don't work in the public sector, never have. Not sure where your "nanny-state" tangent comes from. Please explain....I could do with a laugh.

:laugh

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:42
Who said I don't know the subject area?

Your lack of understanding manifested itself clearly above.


Are you involved with the automotive industry? Or does your knowledge of that rank right up there with your knowledge of how to miss the UK property boat? :wink

I have good knowledge of sales.

I did not miss the UK property boat - I've just chosen to invest into my own company, which enabled me to buy property for cash at a later junction. Had I bought it earlier then I'd probably had it paid off by now also, BUT I would not have had great company created, so on a balance I've gained more with my strategy than lost.

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:54
I have good knowledge of sales.



Yes. Remind us, how much did you pay for your Pug?? :laugh




I did not miss the UK property boat - I've just chosen to invest into my own company

Good for you. Well just make sure that you pay all relevant taxes for the privilege. Wouldn't want you to feel that you weren't pulling your weight. :wink

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 17:56
Gotta love it when sas and AtW are in unison on a topic. The archetypal confederacy of dunces.
They complement each other admirably. Like two flat tyres on the same axle.

:laugh

AtW
6th March 2017, 17:58
Yes. Remind us, how much did you pay for your Pug?? :laugh

£12.5k if I am not mistaken, only 6 months old it was, half the money paid by my dad who promised to do it when I get driving license :smokin

Drove it for 10 years, so worked out on average pretty good.


Good for you. Well just make sure that you pay all relevant taxes for the privilege. Wouldn't want you to feel that you weren't pulling your weight. :wink

All taxes paid, don't want Outland Revenue to break my thumbs...

shaunbhoy
6th March 2017, 18:01
All taxes paid, don't want Outland Revenue to break my thumbs...

Good man. Those Baby Boomer pensions won't pay themselves!! :wink

darmstadt
6th March 2017, 19:39
Didn't PSA buy Talbot? Remember them...

I presume this also includes Lotus? A Peugeot Lotus, can see that selling well :wink

vetran
6th March 2017, 21:48
I presume this also includes Lotus? A Peugeot Lotus, can see that breaking down often :wink



FTFY

DimPrawn
6th March 2017, 21:52
Didn't PSA buy Talbot? Remember them...

I presume this also includes Lotus? A Peugeot Lotus, can see that selling well :wink

You mean, like the Sunbeam Lotus?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Sunbeam#Sunbeam_Ti_and_Sunbeam_Lotus

Peugeot, Chrysler and Lotus all in one.

GreyWolf
7th March 2017, 09:02
Didn't PSA buy Talbot? Remember them...

I presume this also includes Lotus? A Peugeot Lotus, can see that selling well :wink


They did indeed. It was actually Rootes Group when they bought it and they eventually closed it all down, something the Remainers seem to be claiming couldn't possibly happen if we were in the EU. However, it did happen when we were in the EU.

To be fair, one of the Rootes factories was Linwood and that needed closing down. A factory hundreds of miles away from the successful English car industry, forced on Rootes by socialist meddlers in government to give the workshy Weegees an opportunity to fail at car building after failing at ship building. It went in the early 80s after twenty years of almost continuous strikes but Ryton in Coventry lasted until the reign of Gordon the Mad.

The problem is there are too many car factories in Europe. The obvious solution would be to close down the French car industry because they build crap that no-one would miss but the EU turns a blind eye to the French government blatantly propping up the industry.

sal
7th March 2017, 09:22
They did indeed. It was actually Rootes Group when they bought it and they eventually closed it all down, something the Remainers seem to be claiming couldn't possibly happen if we were in the EU. However, it did happen when we were in the EU.

Noone is saying that if UK had stayed in the EU the Vauxhall factories would have been save. Just that the would have been safer than now.


To be fair, one of the Rootes factories was Linwood and that needed closing down. A factory hundreds of miles away from the successful English car industry, forced on Rootes by socialist meddlers in government to give the workshy Weegees an opportunity to fail at car building after failing at ship building. It went in the early 80s after twenty years of almost continuous strikes but Ryton in Coventry lasted until the reign of Gordon the Mad.

Same will be valid for the Vauxhall factories post brexit - they will be hundreds of miles away from the successful EU car industry and behind import/export tariffs.


The problem is there are too many car factories in Europe. The obvious solution would be to close down the French car industry because they build crap that no-one would miss but the EU turns a blind eye to the French government blatantly propping up the industry.

The obvious solution is to close the defectors factories, as for propping the industry you might want to look into the deal the UK government did with Nissan, I'm sure no propping was involved there...

sasguru
7th March 2017, 09:41
The obvious solution would be to close down the French car industry because they build crap that no-one would miss.

They've changed recently and you can see the glimmer of quality beginning to come through. Hence their recent sales rises.
The new 3008 is quite a good car and DS is bringing out some much better models
So propping up the French industry was strategically the right move by their government, since they're left with something and we're left with nowt.

PurpleGorilla
7th March 2017, 09:54
Last Vauxhall I had was a chavalier.

Does anyone by them apart from hire car firms?

Does anyone like Vauxhall?

JozefBlofeld
7th March 2017, 10:02
The obvious solution would be to close down the French car industry because they build crap that no-one would miss but the EU turns a blind eye to the French government blatantly propping up the industry.

Get with the times son. PSA is now backed by the Chinese concern Donfeng. PSA's largest market is China. According to Bloomberg,, PSA is the most profitable 'western' car manufacturer at 6% of turnover, overshadowing Renault S.A.'s healthy 4.7%. Better than any German or U.S. maker.

Still here's a picture of a Triumph Spitfire.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/1974_Triumph_Spitfire4.jpg/280px-1974_Triumph_Spitfire4.jpg

Went out of production in 1980. The British-owned mass car industry that is. Oh, and the delightful Triumph too. #TakingBackControl

sal
7th March 2017, 10:04
Last Vauxhall I had was a chavalier.

Does anyone by them apart from hire car firms?

Does anyone like Vauxhall?

Second largest market share at about 9.5% after Ford's ~13%

PurpleGorilla
7th March 2017, 10:25
Second largest market share at about 9.5% after Ford's ~13%

People love cheap tat.

motoukenin
7th March 2017, 11:08
What are you gibbering about? This deal has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
Moron!

:eyes

Brexit did cause the pound to slump and caused the cost of component imports to rise.

Agreed GM have never made any money in Europe and for the last few years have lost a lot of money, the weak currency just pushed this forward, in fact GM have made a statement this week that they will now only make cars in Asia and North America.

What will be interesting is if the new Astra will be built in the UK, this will be a decision that will be made at the time Brexit will be coming to its final conclusion, higher import costs , easier to fire UK workers and the fact that we will be outside the EU could be factors in deciding if they make the new Astra here and as a result keep the plant open.

Looking at the data from market watch it seems unlikely due to the higher costs of stopping production in mid flight that they will close any plants before 2020 and the UK is the most efficient car maker in Europe, personal view is that it will depend on UK Gov putting in investment like they did with Nissan to keep the plant open here, in short more expense for the taxpayer and that bill is already looking unsustainable.

PurpleGorilla
7th March 2017, 11:25
Brexit did cause the pound to slump and caused the cost of component imports to rise.

Agreed GM have never made any money in Europe and for the last few years have lost a lot of money, the weak currency just pushed this forward, in fact GM have made a statement this week that they will now only make cars in Asia and North America.

What will be interesting is if the new Astra will be built in the UK, this will be a decision that will be made at the time Brexit will be coming to its final conclusion, higher import costs , easier to fire UK workers and the fact that we will be outside the EU could be factors in deciding if they make the new Astra here and as a result keep the plant open.

Looking at the data from market watch it seems unlikely due to the higher costs of stopping production in mid flight that they will close any plants before 2020 and the UK is the most efficient car maker in Europe, personal view is that it will depend on UK Gov putting in investment like they did with Nissan to keep the plant open here, in short more expense for the taxpayer and that bill is already looking unsustainable.

Keeping a slice of the business outside the EU is a very clever move. If the UK is a success, PSA can exploit both the EU and UK network of opportunity.

Making a new Vauxhall Ashtray is small fry for this strategic advantage.

sasguru
7th March 2017, 11:33
... personal view is that it will depend on UK Gov putting in investment like they did with Nissan to keep the plant open here, in short more expense for the taxpayer and that bill is already looking unsustainable.

These car businesses know they thay have HMG over a barrel.
In the end if they can make money here in the UK (i.e. if any HMG subsidies make up for possible tariffs) they'll stay, otherwise they'll simply gradually move production elsewhere.
The complexity of supply chains will be a big issue in their decision, previously as part of the single market it was a non-issue.

PurpleGorilla
7th March 2017, 11:37
There was a chap on from Brussels on R4 yesterday - talking about the competition rules; he basically said there is ways round it;

Free land, free buildings, free training.

Eirikur
8th March 2017, 09:57
Handelsblatt: BMW may build electric Mini in Germany over Brexit - Business Insider (http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-bmw-may-build-electric-mini-in-germany-instead-of-britain-handelsblatt-2017-2?r=US&IR=T)

PurpleGorilla
8th March 2017, 10:14
Handelsblatt: BMW may build electric Mini in Germany over Brexit - Business Insider (http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-bmw-may-build-electric-mini-in-germany-instead-of-britain-handelsblatt-2017-2?r=US&IR=T)

One of my biggest smiles on the road came when two mini's came flying past me doing at least 80 on the road near Salisbury.

The first, a modern Mini Cooper S

The second car, a classic [tuned] Mini Cooper S was right up its exhaust pipes.

Proudly on display across classic rear window was "100% BMW free".

darmstadt
8th March 2017, 10:58
Proudly on display across classic rear window was "100% BMW free".

Lucky that BMW came along then otherwise the car in front would be invisible :laugh

sasguru
8th March 2017, 11:56
The second car, a classic [tuned] Mini Cooper S was right up its exhaust pipes.

Proudly on display across classic rear window was "100% BMW free".

And the next day it rusted to bits.
My 2nd car ever was a classic Mini Cooper. What a piece of rust bucket tulipe it was.
And if you had an accident in one you'd be a mere smear on the road.
For all that, fun to drive though.

BlasterBates
8th March 2017, 12:07
Absolutely the old Mini was a pile of Engineering sh*te.

:D

PurpleGorilla
8th March 2017, 12:30
Absolutely the old Mini was a pile of Engineering sh*te.

:D

Wash your mouth out!

vetran
8th March 2017, 12:38
Absolutely the old Mini was a pile of Engineering sh*te.

:D

compared to the landscape it was in then it was a great design. It competed with the shovette & Zodiac.

The test of time: Classic Mini vs modern MINI | Auto Express (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mini/89426/the-test-of-time-classic-mini-vs-modern-mini)