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Maroslav
16th March 2017, 21:05
I seem to have been assessed as Inside by by client and the tipping point is the question that involves materials etc. They assessed me as Inside because I don't bring my materials to work and this is more about bringing bricks, machinery, paint etc to work.
They deem this question to be Not Applicable. They understand it to not be applicable to my role as a consultant where I've been brought in to write procedures, show how MSP can be applied, and create tools within multiple programmes.
How can this be fair to consultants who bring knowledge and self-funded training to the organisation so that it can be improved. A painter does the same except he or she brings physical materials. I also see the written procedures to be the equivalent of building a sturdy physical wall.
Has anybody experienced this? Is there any written guidance that shows this question can be applied to consultants and not just labourers?!

pscont
16th March 2017, 23:18
The tool is rigged. You must have realised this by now.
Actually they changed answer wordings at least once, and the new wordings gives completely new meaning to the answer. To put you in.
<snip>

Fred Bloggs
17th March 2017, 03:02
I seem to have been assessed as Inside by by client and the tipping point is the question that involves materials etc. They assessed me as Inside because I don't bring my materials to work and this is more about bringing bricks, machinery, paint etc to work.
They deem this question to be Not Applicable. They understand it to not be applicable to my role as a consultant where I've been brought in to write procedures, show how MSP can be applied, and create tools within multiple programmes.
How can this be fair to consultants who bring knowledge and self-funded training to the organisation so that it can be improved. A painter does the same except he or she brings physical materials. I also see the written procedures to be the equivalent of building a sturdy physical wall.
Has anybody experienced this? Is there any written guidance that shows this question can be applied to consultants and not just labourers?!
What complaint have you got exactly? The rules are not aimed at painters or brickies. The target of the new rules is you. It has been that way since 2000 and the start of IR35 but you've had a good long run where you managed to stay outside it. Now you''re caught, I can't see what the problem is.

GDL
17th March 2017, 08:33
Materials can be laptop, software, purchased process maps etc. I do not disagree with the statements about the purpose of ir35

eek
17th March 2017, 08:39
Materials can be laptop, software, purchased process maps etc. I do not disagree with the statements about the purpose of ir35

Materials cannot be laptops and software - they have to be physical goods - for HMRC live (when its convenient to them) in the 19th century...

Laptops are explicitly excluded in the explanatory text in one of the ESS questions...

pscont
17th March 2017, 10:13
Materials cannot be laptops and software - they have to be physical goods - for HMRC live (when its convenient to them) in the 19th century...

Laptops are explicitly excluded in the explanatory text in one of the ESS questions...

They are excluded in the latest version of the ESS. Before that they were not, I believe.
I wonder if the client can ignore the explanatory text, due to:
1. it changes over time (often)
2. it simply dosent describe what the real situation is.

so go with the answer that fits best.

WordIsBond
17th March 2017, 10:23
Materials can be laptop, software, purchased process maps etc. I do not disagree with the statements about the purpose of ir35

From the tool, definition of materials:

items that form a lasting part of the work, or an item bought for the work and left behind when the worker leaves (not including stationery, and most likely to be relevant to substantial purchases in the construction industry)

If you leave a laptop behind because it is somehow part of the project, then it would probably be materials. Similarly if you paid for significant software which was left with the client as part of the deliverable. Otherwise, no.

Definition of equipment:

including heavy machinery, industrial vehicles or high-cost specialist equipment, but not including phones, tablets or laptops

Sorry, it's not equipment, either.

Other expenses:

including significant travel and subsistence expenses (not including commuting) or the cost of a business premises outside of the home
If you spent £2000 on T&S, that would presumably count as "significant". So seems to me if you spend £2K on a laptop, that would be "significant" as well and it should be included under "other expenses." Certainly if I had a PS client that was using the tool, and the questions got this far, I'd be insisting they answered that I had "other expenses" based on the fact that I have to work on my own equipment.

Note also that the tool does not say "the worker DOES provide" but "the worker has to provide." If it is your option to use your own hardware, then you don't HAVE TO provide it. Your client can only include it if you have to provide it. My contracts always specify that the client will not provide computer equipment and MyCo has to provide it. That's self-evident since I WFH anyway, but I've had that provision in my contracts from the beginning because of IR35.

eek
17th March 2017, 10:24
They are excluded in the latest version of the ESS. Before that they were not, I believe.
I wonder if the client can ignore the explanatory text, due to:
1. it changes over time (often)
2. it simply dosent describe what the real situation is.

so go with the answer that fits best.

The previous question stated that the good were for the project (i.e. consumables like paper or paint).

People instantly on here suggested a laptop per contract and HMRC suddenly changed the explanatory text...

Personally because of one thing I do I have a stupidly high spec laptop (1tb m2 card, top of the range Nvidia card, 64gb ram). No end client would give me that and I would have to bodge the work and take days to do what currently takes me 30 minutes.

pscont
17th March 2017, 10:32
The previous question stated that the good were for the project (i.e. consumables like paper or paint).

People instantly on here suggested a laptop per contract and HMRC suddenly changed the explanatory text...

Personally because of one thing I do I have a stupidly high spec laptop (1tb m2 card, top of the range Nvidia card, 64gb ram). No end client would give me that and I would have to bodge the work and take days to do what currently takes me 30 minutes.

And your point is?

b r
17th March 2017, 10:45
A painter does the same except he or she brings physical materials.

Funny that, our Decorator is non-VAT so to keep his costs down (below the threshold) we always buy the materials.

Does that mean we now employ him rather than just pay for his work? ;-)

eek
17th March 2017, 10:46
And your point is?

That the rules don't follow the law but the ESS tool has always explicitly excludes laptops (ignoring the law by doing so)..

The other point is that the laptop per project workaround was insane. My laptop isn't something that I could buy for every project (heck I don't want to move it unless I really, really have to)..

56samba
17th March 2017, 11:11
If Latops are excluded can one simply take a pile of bricks, a hod and a trowel into the office to be deemed outside?

northernladuk
17th March 2017, 11:13
If Latops are excluded can one simply take a pile of bricks, a hod and a trowel into the office to be deemed outside?

They would be BIK as they are not wholly and exclusively required for your work :D

pscont
17th March 2017, 11:17
They would be BIK as they are not wholly and exclusively required for your work :D

If you are setting up a firewall they are...

northernladuk
17th March 2017, 11:21
If you are setting up a firewall they are...

That's about what I'd expect from some of the PS contractors I've seen. :D

gables
17th March 2017, 11:53
That's about what I'd expect from some of the PS contractors I've seen. :D

Hopefully double skinned, security in depth and all that :)

WordIsBond
17th March 2017, 12:29
Those of us who exclusively WFH have the ideal solution, and the rest of you poor losers have had it.

We'll buy DESKTOP computers. :p

eek
17th March 2017, 14:18
Those of us who exclusively WFH have the ideal solution, and the rest of you poor losers have had it.

We'll buy DESKTOP computers. :p

That's actually a plan. I will just add a top of the range graphics card for CUDA work for each contract (and replace it with the next version on the subsequent contract).

pscont
17th March 2017, 14:32
Those of us who exclusively WFH have the ideal solution, and the rest of you poor losers have had it.

We'll buy DESKTOP computers. :p

Smallest factor desktop is not much bigger than a laptop.

eek
17th March 2017, 14:34
Smallest factor desktop is not much bigger than a laptop.

Don't think it will take the graphics cards I'm planning to buy....

Maroslav
19th May 2017, 07:54
What complaint have you got exactly? The rules are not aimed at painters or brickies. The target of the new rules is you. It has been that way since 2000 and the start of IR35 but you've had a good long run where you managed to stay outside it. Now you''re caught, I can't see what the problem is.

Wow, I posed a question because I don't understand all of this as I've just had to become a contractor, and you come out with that. Well done you.

northernladyuk
19th May 2017, 13:59
They would be BIK as they are not wholly and exclusively required for your work :D

You trowel on your slap in the evening before you go to work.

Gomez
1st June 2017, 22:02
I had a similar situation with this one. I was fortunate enough to be working with the client to answer the questions (the way it should be) rather than let them do it by themselves.

So the question currently is "What does the worker have to provide for this engagement that they can't claim as an expense from the end client or an agency?"

I ticked the 'Other expenses' box on the basis that I need to provide insurances that are contractually required for my engagement. This to me seems to be a perfectly legitimate response and my client agreed. An employee would not take out insurance. This was the difference between being inside or outside based on the other responses that were made.

I do also provide my own laptop but this can't be included.




I seem to have been assessed as Inside by by client and the tipping point is the question that involves materials etc. They assessed me as Inside because I don't bring my materials to work and this is more about bringing bricks, machinery, paint etc to work.
They deem this question to be Not Applicable. They understand it to not be applicable to my role as a consultant where I've been brought in to write procedures, show how MSP can be applied, and create tools within multiple programmes.
How can this be fair to consultants who bring knowledge and self-funded training to the organisation so that it can be improved. A painter does the same except he or she brings physical materials. I also see the written procedures to be the equivalent of building a sturdy physical wall.
Has anybody experienced this? Is there any written guidance that shows this question can be applied to consultants and not just labourers?!

WordIsBond
2nd June 2017, 07:19
I do also provide my own laptop but this can't be included.
Nice post and well done for working with the client to get it right. I'd quibble with this point, though.

If you are required by the job to provide your own laptop, it should be included, too. It can't be included under "equipment" (which appears to be weighted more heavily than "Other expenses") but there is nothing to say it can't be included under "Other expenses."

Under the terms of the tool, though, it should only be included if you are required to provide your own laptop. If they would provide a computer but you choose to use yours, that's no different from what employees could likely do if they wanted, and no indicator of outside status.