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SandyD
18th March 2017, 09:16
Don't be Fooled
(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2017/mar/15/do-not-be-fooled-britain-is-not-too-poor-to-be-decent-video)

I agree... rescue the NHS you B***ard same way you bailed out the banks without raising taxes !

malvolio
18th March 2017, 09:32
Don't be Fooled
(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2017/mar/15/do-not-be-fooled-britain-is-not-too-poor-to-be-decent-video)

I agree... rescue the NHS you B***ard same way you bailed out the banks without raising taxes !
More liberal claptrap.

You do realise that almost half the NHS's income goes on interest payments and buildings maintenance? That hiring staff take up to four months, even for junior roles? That 60% of employees are not in patient care? That the crisis in A&E is caused directly by Labour's crap contracts with the GPs and the BMA's refusal to correct that mistake?

The NHS doesn't need more money, it needs more effective management.

SandyD
18th March 2017, 10:13
More liberal claptrap.

You do realise that almost half the NHS's income goes on interest payments and buildings maintenance? That hiring staff take up to four months, even for junior roles? That 60% of employees are not in patient care? That the crisis in A&E is caused directly by Labour's crap contracts with the GPs and the BMA's refusal to correct that mistake?

The NHS doesn't need more money, it needs more effective management.

Yes gree, but don't think privatization is going to make it more effective ! Make the Drs and nurses in charge again !

minestrone
18th March 2017, 10:15
More liberal claptrap.

You do realise that almost half the NHS's income goes on interest payments and buildings maintenance? That hiring staff take up to four months, even for junior roles? That 60% of employees are not in patient care? That the crisis in A&E is caused directly by Labour's crap contracts with the GPs and the BMA's refusal to correct that mistake?

The NHS doesn't need more money, it needs more effective management.

What aspects of the GP contract do you think has directly contributed to issues in the NHS?

malvolio
18th March 2017, 10:20
What aspects of the GP contract do you think has directly contributed to issues in the NHS?If it takes me five days to get an appointment with my GP (and that's any GP in the practice, not my actual assigned GP) and I have an upset stomach, I'll go to A&E where I will be treated in a few hours. The reduction in GP hours means primary care is badly compromised so it falls back on Emergency care. The bulk of A&E cases are not critical, to the point where hospitals are starting to employ GPs in A&E departments to act as triage points.

A&Es are for acute, critical cases, not little Johnny's cut finger. If you can't call out your doctor, or get an appointment in less than one working day, or aren't registered with a GP or are just too damned ignorant to understand what A&Es are there to do, then you have a crisis.

So if you have made GPs unwilling to provide 24x7 primary care by paying them not to provide it...

minestrone
18th March 2017, 10:23
If it takes me five days to get an appointment with my GP (and that's any GP in the practice, not my actual assigned GP) and I have an upset stomach, I'll go to A&E where I will be treated in a few hours. The reduction in GP hours means primary care is badly compromised so it falls back on Emergency care. The bulk of A&E cases are not critical, to the point where hospitals are starting to employ GPs in A&E departments to act as triage points.

A&Es are for acute, critical cases, not little Johnny's cut finger.


I didn't ask for a sob story, you said there were problems in primary care and you said there were issues with the contract new labour negotiated. I asked you what issues resulted from the contract.

SO again, at aspects of the GP contract do you think has directly contributed to issues in the NHS?

malvolio
18th March 2017, 10:30
I didn't ask for a sob story, you said there were problems in primary care and you said there were issues with the contract new labour negotiated. I asked you what issues resulted from the contract.

SO again, at aspects of the GP contract do you think has directly contributed to issues in the NHS?
Well if you don't understand the answer... Read it again; there was a late edit.

minestrone
18th March 2017, 10:34
Well if you don't understand the answer... Read it again; there was a late edit.

I read the edit.

Again, you made claim that the new GP contract as negotiated by labour was a problem.

I'm just hoping you can identify what specific aspects of that contract that you think are causing issues today?

minestrone
18th March 2017, 10:49
You need to be challenged on this as the IPSE cheerleader on this forum.

You made claim that the new GP contract was 'crap', caused issues in the NHS and that there was an effort to renegotiate this and that the BMA refused.

Such bold claims can of course be evidentially proven.

malvolio
18th March 2017, 11:14
You need to be challenged on this as the IPSE cheerleader on this forum.
What does IPSE have to do with anything, quite apart from the fact I'm not. Some of you guys really do need to get over yourselves a little. Your paranoia is getting very wearing.


You made claim that the new GP contract was 'crap', caused issues in the NHS and that there was an effort to renegotiate this and that the BMA refused.

Such bold claims can of course be evidentially proven.

It has been; do your own reading. The GPs' new contracts meant they stopped providing care out of office hours and shoved it off to the ineffective non-emergency call centre-based service, so people went to A&E instead where they felt they were at least dealing with professionals and not Capita-sourced amateurs. That has been corrected to some extent now - by no means completely - but the behaviour is ingrained and people still prefer A&E to GPs for the most trivial of complaints.

Add to that the difficulty of hiring GPs and support staff in the primary care arena and a growing demand that they struggle to service and you can (or at least should) understand the interrelationship.

The problems with the NHS are across the board, the GPS being one trigger. However it is one that could be cured and resources moved to where they are needed. TO do that you have to get the local primary care trusts (small, self-governing, largely run by volunteers and non-clinical managers) and the regional Hospital Trusts (large, professional, overstaffed and commercially driven) to work together. Good luck with that one.

minestrone
18th March 2017, 11:26
What does IPSE have to do with anything, quite apart from the fact I'm not. Some of you guys really do need to get over yourselves a little. Your paranoia is getting very wearing.



It has been; do your own reading. The GPs' new contracts meant they stopped providing care out of office hours and shoved it off to the ineffective non-emergency call centre-based service, so people went to A&E instead where they felt they were at least dealing with professionals and not Capita-sourced amateurs. That has been corrected to some extent now - by no means completely - but the behaviour is ingrained and people still prefer A&E to GPs for the most trivial of complaints.

Add to that the difficulty of hiring GPs and support staff in the primary care arena and a growing demand that they struggle to service and you can (or at least should) understand the interrelationship.

The problems with the NHS are across the board, the GPS being one trigger. However it is one that could be cured and resources moved to where they are needed. TO do that you have to get the local primary care trusts (small, self-governing, largely run by volunteers and non-clinical managers) and the regional Hospital Trusts (large, professional, overstaffed and commercially driven) to work together. Good luck with that one.

I'll make time to respond to the overall ****wiitery of this post later but I do specifically note your opinion that letting untrained people and folk who are just generally 'up for it' be more involved in the NHS as positive.

:suicide

malvolio
18th March 2017, 12:00
I'll make time to respond to the overall ****wiitery of this post later but I do specifically note your opinion that letting untrained people and folk who are just generally 'up for it' be more involved in the NHS as positive.

:suicide

TL;DR. Whatever...

minestrone
18th March 2017, 12:24
Ill respond to the specifics later, but first off I just noted that you claimed initially the problem was a contract and the problem could be solved by down skilling a workforce.

It is an unorthodox response coming from someone in IPSE.

mudskipper
18th March 2017, 13:46
It is an unorthodox response coming from someone in IPSE.

An IPSE member. FTFY

Exactly the same as probably 50%+ of other regular CUK posters.

The only barrier to IPSE membership is the willingness to cough up your £154.73. As such, members have a diverse range of opinions, views, knowledge, experience, and even feckwittery (FTAOD, I'm not saying the latter applies here - I haven't read the argument!) But to take any members view, however well or ill informed as coming from IPSE is no different to assuming the bloke on the road who calls you a **** is speaking for the RAC.

However, I'm not getting into an IPSE discussion, as I specifically do not post here as "someone in IPSE", but as a bicycle riding piscine.

SueEllen
18th March 2017, 13:47
If it takes me five days to get an appointment with my GP (and that's any GP in the practice, not my actual assigned GP) and I have an upset stomach, I'll go to A&E where I will be treated in a few hours. The reduction in GP hours means primary care is badly compromised so it falls back on Emergency care. The bulk of A&E cases are not critical, to the point where hospitals are starting to employ GPs in A&E departments to act as triage points.

A&Es are for acute, critical cases, not little Johnny's cut finger. If you can't call out your doctor, or get an appointment in less than one working day, or aren't registered with a GP or are just too damned ignorant to understand what A&Es are there to do, then you have a crisis.

So if you have made GPs unwilling to provide 24x7 primary care by paying them not to provide it...

I was told by my ex-crap practice and my current practice one that you don't have an assigned GP anymore. So even if you joined the practice with one you don't have one unless you are elderly.

The better practices tell you to only see a particular GP again if they are dealing with a complicated illness then make sure the receptionists book you in when they are scheduled again.

Also if you need an urgent appointment then you need to phone up on the day for an appointment. This is an NHS England thing which was brought in with the Labour government.

In my last crap practice that didn't work as the receptionist, of which there was a high turnover, didn't answer the phone. So your best bet was to line up at 7.30am to get an appointment. The appointment would then end up being for one of the school run times.

With my current practice I can often wing it so I can go to either of the two out of three surgeries that are walking distance from me.

Also lots of practices now employ nurses and nurse practitioners to do the hard work. In many cases this is fine but if the nurse/nurse practitioner finds something they then have to refer you to a GP to do the follow up. This has happened to me twice the first serious and the second not so serious.

Mordac
18th March 2017, 17:09
If it takes me five days to get an appointment with my GP (and that's any GP in the practice, not my actual assigned GP)

5 days? Try 3-4 weeks! :eek

xoggoth
18th March 2017, 17:14
The Labour deal allowed GPs to opt out of evening and weekend work with a small pay cut that they could make up in other ways. A very old link here:

BBC NEWS | Health | BMA team 'stunned by GP contract' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6314301.stm)

SueEllen
18th March 2017, 17:24
5 days? Try 3-4 weeks! :eek

Then clearly you aren't an emergency.

If you were you would make an on the day appointment.

If they think you are an emergency after doing tests, and if they are doing their job properly and not hiding them like my ex-practice, they will phone you to make appointments in the necessary timeframe.

SueEllen
18th March 2017, 17:30
The Labour deal allowed GPs to opt out of evening and weekend work with a small pay cut that they could make up in other ways. A very old link here:

BBC NEWS | Health | BMA team 'stunned by GP contract' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6314301.stm)

Do you blame them?

I remember having a conversation with one of the two of my childhood GPs as a teenager.

He explained how they did a night on-call and then had to have one or two clinics the next day. In between the clinics they had to do home visits.

At that time doctors drove themselves around, which is obviously not safe. This lead to doctors having higher car insurance premiums. Now it's only hospital doctors who have the higher premiums.

BigRed
18th March 2017, 23:26
Do you blame them?

I remember having a conversation with one of the two of my childhood GPs as a teenager.

He explained how they did a night on-call and then had to have one or two clinics the next day. In between the clinics they had to do home visits.

At that time doctors drove themselves around, which is obviously not safe. This lead to doctors having higher car insurance premiums. Now it's only hospital doctors who have the higher premiums.

Sounds like IT on-call, only easier and better paid :tongue

SueEllen
19th March 2017, 09:22
Sounds like IT on-call, only easier and better paid :tongue

You are really stupid.

eek
19th March 2017, 09:33
An IPSE member. FTFY

Exactly the same as probably 50%+ of other regular CUK posters.

The only barrier to IPSE membership is the willingness to cough up your £154.73. As such, members have a diverse range of opinions, views, knowledge, experience, and even feckwittery (FTAOD, I'm not saying the latter applies here - I haven't read the argument!) But to take any members view, however well or ill informed as coming from IPSE is no different to assuming the bloke on the road who calls you a **** is speaking for the RAC.

However, I'm not getting into an IPSE discussion, as I specifically do not post here as "someone in IPSE", but as a bicycle riding piscine.

MS surely you of all people are aware of how Malvolio misrepresents his position within IPSE on here - and the damage that that might have done in the past...

malvolio
19th March 2017, 10:05
MS surely you of all people are aware of how Malvolio misrepresents his position within IPSE on here - and the damage that that might have done in the past...
Citation required... :moon:

And this discussion has absolutely f*** all to do with IPSE which even the meanest intelligence ought to be able to work out for themselves. Or are we not allowed to express personal opinions any more. Or is that only limited to the chosen few blowhards?

Think I'll switch to Mumsnet, at least the arguments are more rational over there...

TestMangler
19th March 2017, 10:42
Think I'll switch to Mumsnet, at least the arguments are more rational over there...

At least they'll appreciate the money off vouchers.