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Semtex
24th March 2017, 15:58
And his sidekicks.

What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?

jamesbrown
24th March 2017, 16:04
Seems a little premature to me. We have a lot of anecdotal information. Here (http://forums.contractoruk.com/public-sector-ir35/poll-2816-has-your-public-sector-contract-role-been-deemed-inside-outside.html), for example. Perhaps someone is maintaining a list by PSB, I don't know. The new requirement for "reasonable care" will tend to discourage PSBs away from blanket determinations in the long-run if contractors dispute and win cases, but the anecdotal info. suggests that some PSBs are still doing this. As far as I can see, it's a mixed bag, but you're right insofar as it isn't blanket inside everywhere, for now. It would be better to return to this question in six months, because some PSBs simply haven't had the time to think about a long-term strategy and HMG hasn't had time to think about the stats coming back (and to compare them to the nonsense from HMRC about 90% being inside :laugh). Also, the whole picture could change come the Autumn Budget.

northernladuk
24th March 2017, 16:05
If I were HMRC reading these threads I'd be freeing up the calendars of a number of my inspectors to visit some of the PS bodies that have a majority of outside contractors and putting the fear of God up them which could result in further unrest.

If they get a sniff that locums and social workers, who are already arguably inside, are not changing they should be over it like a rash, let alone the IT side of it.

The threads from a couple of contractors on here is hardly a yardstick to start a 'I told you so' thread though.

Semtex
24th March 2017, 16:44
it wasn't a told you so post. It was a post to see if, what we are seeing (albeit from a sample size of circa 0.001%of the Contracting Population ) was a surprise to you guys who pretty much posted doom and gloom (which it may still be).

just an observation :happy

northernladuk
24th March 2017, 16:55
Tell that to PC and the double figure numbers of contractors that are having to leave at my ex-client. Trolling pillock.

eek
24th March 2017, 17:06
And his sidekicks.

What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?

Which theory? I've posted a few in this forum..

But no one has a clue what to do at the moment. Hmrc are recording everyone as inside including project based work that isn't, others are doing the reverse.

I suspect the latter are going to have very awkward conversations in the near future.

Semtex
24th March 2017, 17:18
Tell that to PC and the double figure numbers of contractors that are having to leave at my ex-client. Trolling pillock.

I'm trolling? WT*?

That's all you do is sit on these forums 24x7 and poke fun at people asking questions.

Do me a favour.

And in answer to your Statement, what am I telling PC? I have made no statement whatsoever, just asking for yours and eeks opinion on the latest information coming to light

bobspud
24th March 2017, 18:10
Which theory? I've posted a few in this forum..

But no one has a clue what to do at the moment. Hmrc are recording everyone as inside including project based work that isn't, others are doing the reverse.

I suspect the latter are going to have very awkward conversations in the near future.

I dont see why that will happen. at the end of the day HMRC can moan but all the department needs to say is
no the contractor is not a office holder that has been engaged in a statutory role...
no they have never substituted ...

BUT

yes if they did we are going to accept a sub and the contractor needs to pay them.

ka - flipping - pow story over...

it was startlingly easy wasn't it :banana:

cojak
24th March 2017, 18:15
Well we haven't hit the 6th April yet. Let's see what happens after then.

jamesbrown
24th March 2017, 18:28
I'm trolling? WT*?

That's all you do is sit on these forums 24x7 and poke fun at people asking questions.

Do me a favour.

And in answer to your Statement, what am I telling PC? I have made no statement whatsoever, just asking for yours and eeks opinion on the latest information coming to light

TBF, you chose the combative tone of your OP (i.e. eek is an Eeyore, or that's how I read it). Eek contributes a fair bit around here afterall...

SueEllen
24th March 2017, 18:52
I'm trolling? WT*?

That's all you do is sit on these forums 24x7 and poke fun at people asking questions.

Do me a favour.

And in answer to your Statement, what am I telling PC? I have made no statement whatsoever, just asking for yours and eeks opinion on the latest information coming to light

Yep.

Eek kindly posts things as soon as he hears them to help other avoid trouble.

He started posting last summer warning about this.

teapot418
24th March 2017, 19:13
i.e. eek is an Eeyore, or that's how I read it

I was thinking more zeity than eeyore :laugh

Semtex
24th March 2017, 19:17
Yep.

Eek kindly posts things as soon as he hears them to help other avoid trouble.

He started posting last summer warning about this.

:D

eek
24th March 2017, 19:22
:D

And your point is? This is a professional forum and your posts are hardly professional (or to be blunt make any sense).

Oh and I'm still confused as to what you think I've posted that hasn't occurred - bar something that isn't likely to occur until far later this year.

teapot418
24th March 2017, 19:33
Eek contributes a fair bit around here afterall...


And with such grace and humility. :)

eek
24th March 2017, 19:38
I was thinking more zeity than eeyore :laugh

If i was zeity i would be randomly deleting my posts - I'm not planning to do that just yet.

Semtex
24th March 2017, 19:50
And your point is? This is a professional forum and your posts are hardly professional (or to be blunt make any sense).

Oh and I'm still confused as to what you think I've posted that hasn't occurred - bar something that isn't likely to occur until far later this year.

poppycock. I, and numerous people have asked very sensible questions mainly. The rudeness (mentioning no names) from certain posters to people asking questions has been pompous and shocking, there is certainly a clique on these forums boards.

I asked you
What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?

and then

it wasn't a told you so post. It was a post to see if, what we are seeing (albeit from a sample size of circa 0.001%of the Contracting Population ) was a surprise to you guys who pretty much posted doom and gloom (which it may still be).

just an observation .

you are right this is a professional forum and people should be courteous to one another.

MrMarkyMark
24th March 2017, 19:57
Semtex, the thread title and the opening line is provocative, stop playing the innocent :D.

Yes, we do tend to deal with worst case scenario on here, but as a long standing contractor surely you already know they are trying to make us all employed if they can....

eek
24th March 2017, 20:07
poppycock. I, and numerous people have asked very sensible questions mainly. The rudeness (mentioning no names) from certain posters to people asking questions has been pompous and shocking, there is certainly a clique on these forums boards.

I asked you
What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?

and then

it wasn't a told you so post. It was a post to see if, what we are seeing (albeit from a sample size of circa 0.001%of the Contracting Population ) was a surprise to you guys who pretty much posted doom and gloom (which it may still be).

just an observation .

you are right this is a professional forum and people should be courteous to one another.

My problem is that i haven't seen what you appear to have seen. I've see hmrc declare people who should be well and truly outside as inside and other people making equally strange opinions in both directions.

I have also seen some departments get decent advice and make sensible decisions often in conjunction with the few clueful agencies.

So all i actually saw is a provactive thread without any links to something to comment on as i still don't know what exactly you think is different to how i expected things to play out. As currently it's the incohrent, inconsistent mess i thought it was going to be.

oliverson
24th March 2017, 21:05
poppycock. I, and numerous people have asked very sensible questions mainly. The rudeness (mentioning no names) from certain posters to people asking questions has been pompous and shocking, there is certainly a clique on these forums boards.
.

Afraid I have to agree with this. There's definitely an element of bullying and arrogance from certain posters.

notahappybunny
24th March 2017, 21:10
Afraid I have to agree with this. There's definitely an element of bullying and arrogance from certain posters.

+1 which is a shame IMO.

northernladyuk
24th March 2017, 21:49
Tell that to PC and the double figure numbers of contractors that are having to leave at my ex-client. Trolling pillock.

But if PC had been declared inside...

eek
24th March 2017, 22:55
But if PC had been declared inside...

PC had enough sense to see what was going to happen and left... No matter what you think about him he does seem to (eventually) listen to advice and in this case I can see why it was eventually (remember he is now, like a lot of other contractors, currently benched rather than taking the risk and continuing)....

And I'm still waiting for anyone to explain what is different between what I expected to happen and what has happened. As I stated earlier the bit that surprises me is that the Equal Expert contractors whom I expected to be listed as well and truly outside have been declared inside. That to my shows things may be worse than I expected, not better as Semtex and others seem to believe...

Andy Hallett
24th March 2017, 22:59
I was at a seminar today and Teapot was quoted, you guys do have a voice!

eek
24th March 2017, 23:37
poppycock. I, and numerous people have asked very sensible questions mainly. The rudeness (mentioning no names) from certain posters to people asking questions has been pompous and shocking, there is certainly a clique on these forums boards.


Thinking about it you may have a point but I actually don't think its fair because the problem is that its the same few posters who are continually answering the same questions again and again (and I've already got fed up doing so, so others probably feel the same).

What would be helpful would be for others to step up and to point people in the right direction. So I thank those in this thread who are complaining for volunteering to answer the newbie questions...

cojak
25th March 2017, 00:51
Thinking about it you may have a point but I actually don't think its fair because the problem is that its the same few posters who are continually answering the same questions again and again (and I've already got fed up doing so, so others probably feel the same).

What would be helpful would be for others to step up and to point people in the right direction. So I thank those in this thread who are complaining for volunteering to answer the newbie questions...

Maybe this thread needs dusting down again...

http://forums.contractoruk.com/welcome-faqs/53092-cuk-netiquette-guide-newbies.html

SussexSeagull
25th March 2017, 02:47
Not that I am in the Public Sector (or indeed any sector) at the moment but if history has taught us anything it is the impact of any one change brought in by the HMRC is at times not quite as big as you might think but the direction of traffic is towards the majority of contractors being under PAYE.

teapot418
25th March 2017, 06:47
I was at a seminar today and Teapot was quoted, you guys do have a voice!

Do tell!

(Hope it wasn't my recent post in LR!) :laugh :laugh

LoughriggFell
25th March 2017, 08:16
As a newbie, I have been incredibly grateful for the information and advice on here. The worst case scenario posts are some of the things I have found most useful. They have provided a much needed perspective from the total lack of awareness and blasé attitude of the NHS, and crafty half truths and false reassurances from the agencies.

eek
25th March 2017, 08:24
As a newbie, I have been incredibly grateful for the information and advice on here. The worst case scenario posts are some of the things I have found most useful. They have provided a much needed perspective from the total lack of awareness and blasé attitude of the NHS, and crafty half truths and false reassurances from the agencies.

Thank you... And I do know that what I'm posting especially when it comes to any retrospective tax grab is a worst case scenario but I really don't want people seeing £10-25k tax demands because no one mentioned the issue when said rumours were heard....

malvolio
25th March 2017, 11:15
Thank you... And I do know that what I'm posting especially when it comes to any retrospective tax grab is a worst case scenario but I really don't want people seeing £10-25k tax demands because no one mentioned the issue when said rumours were heard....
Ah, well, we tried that before and look what happened... :wink

People much prefer shooting the messenger than dealing with reality.

WordIsBond
25th March 2017, 11:34
And his sidekicks.

What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?
I don't know if I count as a sidekick or not. But if you think you are scoring Internet points here, I have some really good news for you. I'll give you all the points you want without you even having to provide you deserve them. How many do you want? 10? 20? 43,000? Rack them up, let me know.

Meanwhile....

We don't know how bad this is, yet. We do know that some PSBs are declaring everyone inside. And we know that some NHS guy was telling everyone in the NHS to declare everyone inside. If it doesn't end up that bad, that's great, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a real threat of it being that bad, and that it really HAS been that bad for some people. So maybe it wasn't horrible to give warning of the danger.

We also don't know how real the threat of retroactive tax grabs is, but we know that it's been talked about by more than just people on CUK. So maybe it wasn't horrible to warn people about that possibility, either.

I'm pretty convinced that the only reason it hasn't been as bad as feared is because enough contractors were alert to the situation and told their clients they were going to walk. And that made a lot of PSBs wake up to the fact that this was going to hurt THEM. That made some of them more reasonable, rather than just going into knee-jerk risk protection mode. But if contractors hadn't been telling them they were going to walk, that wouldn't have happened.

Just maybe, you're looking at a cause and effect situation and saying the cause wasn't necessary since the effect has happened. Maybe the warnings had something to do with PSBs being reasonable. Something to consider.

While you're thinking about it, how many Internet points were you wanting? I'll go buy some for you at the Internet points marketplace.

Stevie Wonder Boy
25th March 2017, 14:24
And his sidekicks.

What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?

I've been lurking for quite a while now. Not keen on arguing and wasting my time.

My observations about this whole PS IR35 -

1. Making the client declare status removes the risk from us as contractors. <-- This is a good thing.
2. Removing expenses and making inside exactly like employment, is really just making inside contracts nonviable. If this really is disguised employment then they will fill the roles, if its not and a contractor has choice they will take an outside role. Starting with a 30% to 40% difference in real rate this is not a difficult decision. Also without non taxable travel expenses this further increases the margin and the risk.
3. Agents are dancing round the fire right now, trying get you to engage on a contract, without being sure what is really going on -> Have a look on jobserve and search on Newcastle and Infrastructure for an illustration of a contract that is being advertised by numerous agents as inside and outside. BTW: this is an NHSBA contract, so it must be inside?

So my view - Still wait and see how it really works over the next six months. / Moving the risk to the client for IR35 is good for contractors / Initial impression is the client declaring inside IR35 is going to equal increased cost and a smaller pool of candidates.

Semtex
25th March 2017, 14:25
Semtex, the thread title and the opening line is provocative, stop playing the innocent :D.

Yes, we do tend to deal with worst case scenario on here, but as a long standing contractor surely you already know they are trying to make us all employed if they can....

provocative or cheeky? all in the eye of the beholder

eek
25th March 2017, 14:29
provocative or cheeky? all in the eye of the beholder

Keep posting as I'm away on holiday for the next 10 days....

After that you are on ignore so chances are I'll totally miss your pointless point scoring....

MrMarkyMark
25th March 2017, 16:01
provocative or cheeky? all in the eye of the beholder

Exactly the same for most of us actually...maybe you like to poke fun like NLUK :D.

However, he gives really detailed helpful answers too....really :laugh

Semtex
25th March 2017, 16:06
I don't know if I count as a sidekick or not. But if you think you are scoring Internet points here, I have some really good news for you. I'll give you all the points you want without you even having to provide you deserve them. How many do you want? 10? 20? 43,000? Rack them up, let me know.

Meanwhile....

We don't know how bad this is, yet. We do know that some PSBs are declaring everyone inside. And we know that some NHS guy was telling everyone in the NHS to declare everyone inside. If it doesn't end up that bad, that's great, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a real threat of it being that bad, and that it really HAS been that bad for some people. So maybe it wasn't horrible to give warning of the danger.

We also don't know how real the threat of retroactive tax grabs is, but we know that it's been talked about by more than just people on CUK. So maybe it wasn't horrible to warn people about that possibility, either.

I'm pretty convinced that the only reason it hasn't been as bad as feared is because enough contractors were alert to the situation and told their clients they were going to walk. And that made a lot of PSBs wake up to the fact that this was going to hurt THEM. That made some of them more reasonable, rather than just going into knee-jerk risk protection mode. But if contractors hadn't been telling them they were going to walk, that wouldn't have happened.

Just maybe, you're looking at a cause and effect situation and saying the cause wasn't necessary since the effect has happened. Maybe the warnings had something to do with PSBs being reasonable. Something to consider.

While you're thinking about it, how many Internet points were you wanting? I'll go buy some for you at the Internet points marketplace.

somebody take those mushrooms off of this man

jamesbrown
25th March 2017, 16:16
somebody take those mushrooms off of this man

I think you did already :laugh

teapot418
25th March 2017, 23:36
Keep posting as I'm away on holiday for the next 10 days....

After that you are on ignore so chances are I'll totally miss your pointless point scoring....


You might not delete posts, but you are king of the edit. :)

Talking of point scoring, where are you off to, and how much does your hotel cost? ;)

teapot418
25th March 2017, 23:37
FTAOD, not questioning the usefulness of the majority of eek's posts, but the attitude could do with a little work.

eek
26th March 2017, 06:26
You might not delete posts, but you are king of the edit. :)

Talking of point scoring, where are you off to, and how much does your hotel cost? ;)


FTAOD, not questioning the usefulness of the majority of eek's posts, but the attitude could do with a little work.

Well my attitude could equally be **** you sunshine and as of now it is. See ya. I'm off to follow zeitys example and delete posts starting with the faq.

Semtex
26th March 2017, 09:15
Well my attitude could equally be **** you sunshine and as of now it is. See ya. I'm off to follow zeitys example and delete posts starting with the faq.

nobody is questioning the amount of help and resources you have put in. Even if some of it may be a tad too negative (IMO only). but it sort of feels you are being David Beckham ish in not getting your knighthood.

Have a lovely break I mean it.

John Lane
27th March 2017, 07:00
Thankyou.

Too much gloom - maybe/maybe not..... logically we wont know for a a while/months

cojak
27th March 2017, 07:11
Thankyou.

Too much gloom - maybe/maybe not..... logically we wont know for a a while/months

Well at least you can't say you weren't told...

Andy Hallett
27th March 2017, 07:16
Do tell!

(Hope it wasn't my recent post in LR!) :laugh :laugh

It was your view of the ESS - "it's pants"

teapot418
27th March 2017, 07:23
It was your view of the ESS - "it's pants"

One of my more erudite and profound musings :laugh

teapot418
27th March 2017, 07:24
Well at least you can't say you weren't told...

Agreed - better to paint worst case scenario than have people get a nasty shock. Will be an interesting few months.

LondonManc
27th March 2017, 07:27
It was your view of the ESS - "it's pants"

I don't think it's a unique view but it's probably the only one that's repeatable.

Perhaps if HMRC actually sent a briefing document to explain what constituted a role being inside or outside IR35 to those making the determination, there would be a better chance of the correct determination being made? Currently there are too many reports of blanket decisions being made in either direction, which indicates a lack of understanding and PSBs being risk averse is trumping that understanding by some margin. All I see HMRC doing at the moment is muddying the IR35 waters in their favour at the risk of productivity within the public sector.

WordIsBond
27th March 2017, 07:30
Perhaps if CUK actually sent a briefing document to explain what constituted a role being inside or outside IR35 to those making the determination, there would be a better chance of the correct determination being made?
FTFY.

LondonManc
27th March 2017, 07:38
FTFY.

Somebody, any body, please, won't someone think of the children?!?!

WordIsBond
27th March 2017, 07:43
somebody take those mushrooms off of this man
I think that means you think I'm a "sidekick". Have some Internet points.

As for some of the other interesting conversations that have gone around here in the last 48 hours or so, we don't own the copyright on things we post here. CUK does (http://www.contractoruk.com/about/bulletin_board.html).


9. This site asserts copyright on all comments posted on the board. By using this forum, you authorize Contractor UK to continue to display your contributions to the site.

If the information that was removed is still considered useful, there is nothing preventing anyone posting it again.

cojak
27th March 2017, 07:54
I think that means you think I'm a "sidekick". Have some Internet points.

As for some of the other interesting conversations that have gone around here in the last 48 hours or so, we don't own the copyright on things we post here. CUK does (http://www.contractoruk.com/about/bulletin_board.html).



If the information that was removed is still considered useful, there is nothing preventing anyone posting it again.

Unless one of the mods removes it. We don't remove quoted posts but Eek has actively removed his content - it won't be posted here again.

WordIsBond
27th March 2017, 08:38
Unless one of the mods removes it.
My point was that it would be entirely at your discretion, and that any talk about him exercising copyright to insist on its removal is unfounded. You and other mods, of course, can remove anything you want, and block anything you want. But the rest of us give up any rights to what we post here.

teapot418
27th March 2017, 17:09
To be clear, I didn't post the quoted thread to wind eek up - I did it because I thought his posts had value and were useful to newcomers.

However, FaQQer has created a worthy alternative, so it would be nice if his could be made a sticky.

gables
28th March 2017, 09:56
To be clear, I didn't post the quoted thread to wind eek up - I did it because I thought his posts had value and were useful to newcomers.

However, FaQQer has created a worthy alternative, so it would be nice if his could be made a sticky.

And as an independent observer (I don't think I'm a sidekick) of the opening post and title, it certainly came across that way.

MrMarkyMark
28th March 2017, 10:03
One thing that is a common thread on here is for new posters / posters with a low post count to complain and betch like old men / women.

Often quite loudly should the answer be the one they didn't want to hear.

In addition they are also the sort of who contributes nothing of value at all.


Funny one that :laugh

RonBW
28th March 2017, 10:46
And as an independent observer (I don't think I'm a sidekick) of the opening post and title, it certainly came across that way.

Wasn't the opening post something like "for those looking for the deleted FAQs" and then quoting the deleted posts so that they wouldn't get lost since they were useful? I didn't read much of a wind up there :(

Glad to see that there's a reasonable alternative though - come May people are going to see their invoices short paid and need good advice.

gables
28th March 2017, 11:20
And his sidekicks.

What do you think of the latest statements from majority of PS orgs declaring many roles outside?

Isn't the above the original statement? I thought it was, ho hum.


Wasn't the opening post something like "for those looking for the deleted FAQs" and then quoting the deleted posts so that they wouldn't get lost since they were useful? I didn't read much of a wind up there :(

Glad to see that there's a reasonable alternative though - come May people are going to see their invoices short paid and need good advice.

^^yup

RonBW
28th March 2017, 11:33
Isn't the above the original statement? I thought it was, ho hum.

That's the start of this thread, created by semtex. The thread teapot created (which is who you quoted) wasn't IMVHO created to wind anyone up at all, but that thread has been removed anyway.

Unless you're saying semtex and teapot are the same poster :eek:

FTAOD, I'm Spartacus and so is my wife.

Oneoffpost
28th March 2017, 11:44
To be clear, I didn't post the quoted thread to wind eek up - I did it because I thought his posts had value and were useful to newcomers.



Given that you were the person who caused eek to delete the posts and leave the site that's a bit rich. While you may have intended to rescue the content it probably really wound him up.

As for the idea that a site gets full copyright of content, the statement is made on sites to protect themselves however no consideration is made and hence it's highly unlikely the term would stand up in law. Not deleting it could have been a very expensive court case.. and one that could easily have gone a very long expensive way. But it's nice to see know nothing low count posters think they know better than the regular posters.

Finally, personally I expect that when this is finalised Eek's worst case scenario may still be an understatement. HMRC have just delayed their making tax digital project by months by stating everyone is inside and watching them leave. if HMRC are doing that other departments are going to be expected to do the same and the rules do say that status needs to be continually checked.

gables
28th March 2017, 11:48
That's the start of this thread, created by semtex. The thread teapot created (which is who you quoted) wasn't IMVHO created to wind anyone up at all, but that thread has been removed anyway.

Unless you're saying semtex and teapot are the same poster :eek:

FTAOD, I'm Spartacus and so is my wife.

good spot, all these threads\forks worse than Linux :) ho hum, I'll just watch in future

cojak
28th March 2017, 13:33
This bickering is going nowhere. Time to move on. Thread closed.