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rge
18th November 2006, 22:14
Hello


I am new here and i was hoping from some advice. I have been interested in computers for quite a while now, and have various vocational qualifications. I was about to start an IT degree, but after reading a lot of sites and articles and hearing from different IT pros i'm not sure its an area to get into if you want to earn decent money. There seems to be a lot of problems in IT, and although i like it, i'm wondering if i should look elsewhere for more steady career prospects. I notice that it has been mentioned a few times about becoming a tradesman. Is it a lucrative thing to get into?


Thanks.

Paddy
18th November 2006, 22:19
"Is it a lucrative thing to get into?"


Answer = No.

Lucy
18th November 2006, 22:20
Hello


I am new here and i was hoping from some advice. I have been interested in computers for quite a while now, and have various vocational qualifications. I was about to start an IT degree, but after reading a lot of sites and articles and hearing from different IT pros i'm not sure its an area to get into if you want to earn decent money. There seems to be a lot of problems in IT, and although i like it, i'm wondering if i should look elsewhere for more steady career prospects. I notice that it has been mentioned a few times about becoming a tradesman. Is it a lucrative thing to get into?


Thanks.

Only do it if you love it.

If you want big money I would go to finance.

AtW
18th November 2006, 22:36
I notice that it has been mentioned a few times about becoming a tradesman. Is it a lucrative thing to get into?

Don't choose the profession on the basis of expected monetary returns - there are enough fools who will do that and this will lead to inevitable drop in rates, so you will end up doing job that you don't really like while getting crap pay.

Tonic
18th November 2006, 22:37
Hello


I am new here and i was hoping from some advice. I have been interested in computers for quite a while now, and have various vocational qualifications. I was about to start an IT degree, but after reading a lot of sites and articles and hearing from different IT pros i'm not sure its an area to get into if you want to earn decent money. There seems to be a lot of problems in IT, and although i like it, i'm wondering if i should look elsewhere for more steady career prospects. I notice that it has been mentioned a few times about becoming a tradesman. Is it a lucrative thing to get into?


Thanks.


If you wanna work for someone else, ie web developer of some sorts, or .NET dev.. work in an agency for low rate pay for a few years, then go freelance.. .NET devs get about 450 a day at the moment.

If you're gonna succeed at this though, you do have to love it. Nothing is worse than reems of code, a deadline, and the wish that you were elsewhere..

To make good money, you really need to be good.

wantacontract
18th November 2006, 23:28
I wish I had gone into sports management or something to do with sports.....don't know why I didn't...although I didn't go into IT for the money, just that there was all the hype on IT when I was doing my a-levels back in 1996.......the newest thing......

How does one become a football agent???

Basketball coach??? Not in demand in UK...

Ardesco
19th November 2006, 00:21
If you want big money I would go to finance.

I would disagree. if you want the big money get yourself CORGI registered and do gas work. You can charge up to £80/hour (although i think the average is £50/hour) and people will pay it.

Majority of the work will be cash in hand or cheque. Make sure your company name is your name (e.g. Joe Bloogs Gas Fitters) and when they ask who to make the cheque payable say Joe Bloggs. Put what you want through the company and take the rest as and when you feel like it with very little chance of anybody tracing the money.

No IR35 to worry about, and once you are registered as a Gas Installer you will always find work.

I have a mate who quit coding to go and do this and he's doing very well for himself, works when he feels like it and brings in much more than he did from coding. I sometimes think about doing it myself, maybe when Plan B is bringing in a lot more money :)

threaded
19th November 2006, 07:40
Do Law and/or Accountancy.

Churchill
19th November 2006, 08:12
Divorce Solicitors make shite loads of money and are all completely devious feckers who I hope die a horrible death.

Not that I'm bitter.

wendigo100
19th November 2006, 10:03
If you want big money I would go to finance.Agreed. You can do IT in the finance sector and get very good money. Even tape-changers!

Troll
19th November 2006, 12:42
I would disagree. if you want the big money get yourself CORGI registered and do gas work. You can charge up to £80/hour (although i think the average is £50/hour) and people will pay it.

I have a mate who quit coding to go and do this and he's doing very well for himself, works when he feels like it and brings in much more than he did from coding. I sometimes think about doing it myself, maybe when Plan B is bringing in a lot more money :)
Have you seen the route to certification for this: looks like they are trying to fast track the foreigners


Category One

Experienced gas-fitting operatives from within or outside of the United Kingdom who are:

* seeking to renew expired or expiring certificates of gas safety competence i.e. HSC, ACoP, ACS or Gas Services N/SVQ's
* seeking assessment and certification to extend their range of gas work;
* foreign nationals seeking to obtain certificates of gas safety competence that will allow them to meet United Kingdom gas work requirements. Operatives in this category need to provide evidence of their gas fitting qualifications and experience and all information needs to be translated into English, where appropriate.

Category Two

Candidates have to provide evidence that qualifications are held which are relevant to the area(s) of gas work where they are seeking to acquire certification. These qualifications must show that competence has been achieved in the generic work activities associated with fossil fuelled appliances/equipment and/or pipe work installation, including any of the following work activities, flueing or ventilation or the installation, maintenance or commissioning of such appliances.

Examples of appropriate qualifications include:

• Plumbing craft qualification or N/SVQ (oil and/or solid fuel options) – suitable initially for domestic or commercial central, water heating or pipe work installation.

• Pipe Fitter/Welder craft qualification or N/SVQ – suitable initially for commercial pipe work, pipe work commissioning and meter installation.

• Heating and Ventilation craft qualification or N/SVQ – suitable initially for commercial pipe work and appliance installation.

• Refrigeration Engineer/Fitter craft qualification or N/SVQ - suitable initially for commercial appliance and pipe work installation.



In addition to appropriate qualifications candidates need to provide written evidence confirming that “on the job” gas installation and/or maintenance training has been undertaken and that any experience of gas work gained has been carried out under the direct supervision of a competent operative, employed by a CORGI registered company. Such written evidence will need to be provided from the employer and detail precisely the areas of gas work undertaken.

Category Three

These candidates are new entrants into the gas industry and are unable to provide details of relevant qualifications and/or experience. These will be individuals who are classed as entering the industry for the first time, or changing career direction

Candidates in this category should be advised to seek training and experience that will result in the attainment of a National/Scottish Vocational Qualification (N/SVQ) in Gas Services, Installation and Maintenance at Level 2 or 3, or obtain employment with a CORGI registered business who is willing to provide an auditable extended period of company “in house” gas training programme together with the necessary organisational support prior to undertaking ACS assessment.

The duration and content of the training programme will be determined by the scope of gas work being undertaken. Evidence in the form of a portfolio following completion of such training must be presented to the assessment centre before a candidate can undertake assessments.

Alternatively an N/SVQ within the Mechanical Engineering Sector with related on the job gas training and experience in the intended areas of gas work to be carried out will also support a future application.

Gonzo
19th November 2006, 19:14
Its a case of being in the right place at the right time.

IT can pay well at the minute but I wouldn't advise anyone now to start a career in coding...

These things never seem to last very long - a relative of mine went into electronic engineering which paid well in the late seventies and eighties but is a bit of a struggle now though.

As far as I can see, the only professions that paid well 100 years ago and still pay well today are Doctors and Lawyers. So if you want a secured high income for the long term, there is your answer.

threaded
19th November 2006, 19:19
Wouldn't bother with the Doctor thing. Human bodies don't change much. But laws and accounts: every year stuff changes ... job for life at high rates.

lilelvis2000
19th November 2006, 20:06
great! more competition....

personally I'm thinking of getting out and taking a business course and moving into management. I find that IT jobs salaries peak out well below what paper pushers peak at. Unless your name is Threaded.


Just My Opinion of course.

VectraMan
19th November 2006, 20:58
personally I'm thinking of getting out and taking a business course and moving into management. I find that IT jobs salaries peak out well below what paper pushers peak at.

Yep, amazing really considering how little they actually seem to do. :D

I was fed up with development a year ago, and expecting to end up doing more of a management role, but now I've found I've started to enjoy it a lot more.

I think like anything if you're good you can do well, but the days where the average Joe made loads in IT because he knew his way round a phillips screwdriver, are gone.

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 00:09
I am new here and i was hoping from some advice. I have been interested in computers for quite a while now, and have various vocational qualifications. I was about to start an IT degree, but after reading a lot of sites and articles and hearing from different IT pros i'm not sure its an area to get into if you want to earn decent money. There seems to be a lot of problems in IT, and although i like it, i'm wondering if i should look elsewhere for more steady career prospects. I notice that it has been mentioned a few times about becoming a tradesman. Is it a lucrative thing to get into?

If you want no holes barred oney go into economics or recruitment. I have 2 mates who are in it. One earns £80k as a rec consultant in bristol. The other works for CitiBank an ears >£100k/year. They both make good money but earn it doing >12hour days. By contrast I get £60k as a logistician and do 4 hour days. See the maths there...

The money is there you just have to find it. Choose something that cannot be outsourced. I.e. they cannot outsource logistics to India as its not a commericial hub like rotterdam so unless the continents move alot I'll be able to find work. Also as more production goes overseas the more work I get.

Board Game Geek
20th November 2006, 01:25
Don't go doctors....it's a waste of time.


With practice-based commisioning, the PCT will engage the services of the cheapest provider.

A man from a surgery I know went to a walk in centre at Liverpool St Station, complaining of severe headaches.

The doctor in charge said it was stress,

This doctor is "el cheapo doctor" from Europe with little medical experience.

The NHS nurse disagreed with the doctor, and told the patient to go to A&E.

She is under suspension for undermining the doctor.

The patient went to A&E and they discovered a brain haemorrage.

Draw your own conclusions

mcquiggd
20th November 2006, 07:25
Reminds me of a story my dad told me...

He was in the US on business, and developed a rash on his neck - he went to the nearest hospital, and was told he had skin cancer. He got on the next flight home.

His GP asked him if he had changed washing powders recently - of course the hotel were using some mass produced muck for their cleaning service.

Within a couple of days he was back in the US, and used a laundromat instead. The rash dissapeared.

From one extreme to another....

bobhope
20th November 2006, 07:46
Good question and difficult to answer. The decision was much easier 10 years ago. Maybe you could use Threaded's time machine?

The Clown Beater
20th November 2006, 09:10
IT sucks. It's volatile, very unpredictable and prone to crashes. Hey just like Windows.

Gas fitters, electricians and other tradespeople are facing competition from black market Eastern Europeans at the moment.

Get a job as a train driver (circa 28-32k) and get on the council. That's the most reliable and stable income at the moment.

I'm investigating being a freight train driver for EWS :banana:

DimPrawn
20th November 2006, 09:20
Get into IT. The money is good and you get to spend all your time on CUK moaning about how bad it is. How good is that?

:)

lukemg
20th November 2006, 09:36
You won't get rich doing IT, career earnings are comparable with most office based professions, even if you get some good contracting years making you think otherwise.
Be prepared for the following :
1. Technology takes a different path - your 10 yrs of skills can become worthless.
2. As everything in IT is made simpler to do - your 10 yrs of skills can become worthless.
3. As the whole world is now connected - your 10 yrs of skills can become worthless.

Some people love coding, if you do, then go for it. If not, try something else.
Consider a business of your own, take a few chances before a mortgage etc means you need 2k a month just to stay afloat.

DimPrawn
20th November 2006, 09:41
10 years as an IT contractor should mean an above average lifestyle coupled with the ability to pay off any sensible mortgage in the same period.

Hence the net result is a large lump of capital and a lower cost of living going forward, enabling an enjoyable plan B to takeover in later years.

Forumbore
20th November 2006, 09:55
[QUOTE=Sockpuppet]If you want no holes barred oney go into economics or recruitment. I have 2 mates who are in it. One earns £80k as a rec consultant in bristol. The other works for CitiBank an ears >£100k/year. They both make good money but earn it doing >12hour days. By contrast I get £60k as a logistician and do 4 hour days. See the maths there...

QUOTE]

I cannot see the logic in what you do.

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 09:59
If you want no holes barred oney go into economics or recruitment. I have 2 mates who are in it. One earns £80k as a rec consultant in bristol. The other works for CitiBank an ears >£100k/year. They both make good money but earn it doing >12hour days. By contrast I get £60k as a logistician and do 4 hour days. See the maths there...



I cannot see the logic in what you do.

Do you work in marketing by any chance? :banana:

Forumbore
20th November 2006, 10:16
Do you work in marketing by any chance? :banana:

I just think that £60 k a year for driving a truck is rather a lot.

Weltchy
20th November 2006, 11:03
Smuggling immigrants into the country paid well until recently!!!!!

rge
20th November 2006, 11:18
Thanks for all the responses. I know that if i want to work in it i'm going to have to start at the bottom, and helpdesk and technician roles would suck my soul out, which i just can't do. That and it seems that people are always saying good tradesmen can make a ton of money and are always in demand. Its not just the money i am interested in, although it is a big part, but i also need to like what i do and eventually being my own boss.

SallyAnne
20th November 2006, 11:24
Thanks for all the responses. I know that if i want to work in it i'm going to have to start at the bottom, and helpdesk and technician roles would suck my soul out, which i just can't do. That and it seems that people are always saying good tradesmen can make a ton of money and are always in demand. Its not just the money i am interested in, although it is a big part, but i also need to like what i do and eventually being my own boss.


rge - I'd like to give you some honest advice. I dont think you have to like what you do, you can stick out anything if your end of month invoice is knocking on for £10k or more.
If you want the big bucks, and are eady for a challenge and a bit of a gamble, then I suggest getting yourself into Oracle Apps.
You can do boot camps where they train you very quickly and you get a nice shiney little credit card certificate at the end of it (which you can walk into gigs with).
Its about 2 months out of your life, (and I think it costs about £10k aswell) but you'd reap that back after your first 2 months.
You come out of the boot camp pretty wet behind the ears, but take a cheap gig first and you'll gain plenty of experience.

Have a search on Oracle's website (or just google Oracle Developer boot camp) and have a look.
This is what all the Indian lads do, so why not you?

You have to have a bit of guts like, but you should go for it.

Course I'm like a turkey voting for Xmas telling you this (as you may come out of it and steal my job) but competition never hurt anyone!

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 11:29
I just think that £60 k a year for driving a truck is rather a lot.

Well lorry driving is only around £30k/year - thats the plan b only to be done while looking for contracts.

The rest is made from plugging numbers into cast & dips/paragon and telling someone the result.

Lucifer Box
20th November 2006, 12:05
Well lorry driving is only around £30k/year - thats the plan b only to be done while looking for contracts.
Sockpuppet, tupperware parties are the future. Should feature as every responsible contractor's plan B.

Lucy
20th November 2006, 12:10
Sockpuppet, tupperware parties are the future. Should feature as every responsible contractor's plan B.

Didn't think plastic would be much use to you LB ?

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 12:11
Sockpuppet, tupperware parties are the future. Should feature as every responsible contractor's plan B.

Well that or Man Summers..... erm...thats just disturbing.

Lucifer Box
20th November 2006, 12:14
Didn't think plastic would be much use to you LB ?
I like to be prudent, just in case.

Lucy
20th November 2006, 12:16
I like to be prudent, just in case.

Just in case you don't live in a very hot place ?

rootsnall
20th November 2006, 12:18
Thanks for all the responses. I know that if i want to work in it i'm going to have to start at the bottom, and helpdesk and technician roles would suck my soul out, which i just can't do. That and it seems that people are always saying good tradesmen can make a ton of money and are always in demand. Its not just the money i am interested in, although it is a big part, but i also need to like what i do and eventually being my own boss.

I would get your degree as an absolute minimum and then worry about the next stage in a few years time. Can you not do IT mixed with something else ?

IT contractors have been talking the demise of IT for 20 years but the number of jobs keep on growing ( with the odd slump ) and if you have got half a clue you should earn a reasonable living at it.

I know a lot of tradesmen and most of them work hard for less than 200 a day and are nearly all looking for an exit strategy by age 40. Most would jump at the chance of a cushy IT desk job. A few CORGI plumbers working for themselves may earn more than that but plenty don't and they will be grafting hard for it.

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 12:33
Just in case you don't live in a very hot place ?

LB did use pyrex but it started to chafe.

Lucy
20th November 2006, 12:35
LB did use pyrex but it started to chafe.

chafe ?

expat
20th November 2006, 12:41
I wish I had gone into sports management or something to do with sports.....don't know why I didn't...although I didn't go into IT for the money, just that there was all the hype on IT when I was doing my a-levels back in 1996.......the newest thing......

How does one become a football agent???

Basketball coach??? Not in demand in UK...Punctuation?

expat
20th November 2006, 12:45
Wouldn't bother with the Doctor thing. Human bodies don't change much. But laws and accounts: every year stuff changes ... job for life at high rates.Yes, but if you take a break you're off the train. A 2005/6 tax advisor follows the changes and becomes a 2006/7 tax advisor: where else would they come from? But a 2002/3 tax advisor is worth as much this year as a 3-year old buffalo bagel.

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 12:55
chafe ?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chafe

expat
20th November 2006, 12:56
IT contractors have been talking the demise of IT for 20 years but the number of jobs keep on growing ( with the odd slump ) and if you have got half a clue you should earn a reasonable living at it.
I for one have been wondering nervously how long it would last, for well over 20 years now :)

One source of confusion is that we talk as if there is only one IT, only one level of skill and demand. That's not so. Being a low-grade code monkey is not great nowadays. Having skills that are sought-after and not easily acquired, is as good as ever.

It was ever so: being a 2-year COBOL programmer was once a pretty good deal, but in those days that was rare and not easy to get to (nobody would train you, you couldn't learn it on your PC because they didn't exist, university education had a different focus, and government training schemes were correctly seen as insufficient).

I.e. coding was once rare and well-paid, now it isn't. (good coding is still rare but nobody cares). The "IT" that pays is now a higher level.

The barrier to entry and the good rates go hand in hand.

Bagpuss
20th November 2006, 12:57
I for one have been wondering nervously how long it would last, for well over 20 years now :)

One source of confusion is that we talk as if there is only one IT, only one level of skill and demand. That's not so. Being a low-grade code monkey is not great nowadays. Having skills that are sought-after and not easily acquired, is as good as ever.

It was ever so: being a 2-year COBOL programmer was once a pretty good deal, but in those days that was rare and not easy to get to (nobody would train you, you couldn't learn it on your PC because they didn't exist, university education had a different focus, and government training schemes were correctly seen as insufficient).

The barrier to entry and the good rates go hand in hand.

I once did an ET in Cobol, waste of fookin time. I just though I'd share that with you.

expat
20th November 2006, 13:02
I once did an ET in Cobol, waste of fookin time. I just though I'd share that with you.Yes, I have helped out a friend who did one. I was staggered. He was expected to study a few sheets of notes and one example, then write a simple COBOL program, not even try compiling it, and say he was trained in programming.

Bagpuss
20th November 2006, 13:06
Yes, I have helped out a friend who did one. I was staggered. He was expected to study a few sheets of notes and one example, then write a simple COBOL program, not even try compiling it, and say he was trained in programming.

The only thing I can remember is being told what a parity bit was, and it's not a bit of an exotic bird.

The ETs were a right royal fook up, the training companies made a packet (at the taxpayers expense) and the qualification was useless, some City and Guilds rubbish.

Lucy
20th November 2006, 13:13
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chafe


Yeah, cheers puppet, I just didn't think pyrex did that.

expat
20th November 2006, 13:13
The only thing I can remember is being told what a parity bit was, and it's not a bit of an exotic bird.About as useful as knowing what a sanity clause is!

Sockpuppet
20th November 2006, 14:08
Yeah, cheers puppet, I just didn't think pyrex did that.

Depnds where you put it.

Lucy
20th November 2006, 14:18
Depnds where you put it.

In the oven. :o

rge
20th November 2006, 16:06
If you want no holes barred oney go into economics or recruitment. I have 2 mates who are in it. One earns £80k as a rec consultant in bristol. The other works for CitiBank an ears >£100k/year. They both make good money but earn it doing >12hour days. By contrast I get £60k as a logistician and do 4 hour days. See the maths there...


Hi, can i ask what is a logistician? And how can you earn so much for so few hours?

snaw
20th November 2006, 16:11
Looks fecking great from where I'm sitting. Very good money, very easily transportable skills (i.e. if you want to live and work in other countries), and actually interesting if you're doing it for the right reasons. Then again I been in it for a long time now and I have skills that are in demand, so I have an element of not worrying about my next contract and usually getting to choose what my next gig is.

Finance might pay more, but crucially, people in finance work a hell of a lot harder than we do. Plus from what I can tell the shortage in IT is as great as always, as long as your relitively flexible in what you do and prepared to put in a wee bit of work to upskill you'll be fine.

Bagpuss
20th November 2006, 16:15
Hi, can i ask what is a logistician? And how can you earn so much for so few hours?

Sounds like a made up name for operational research

IanIan
20th November 2006, 19:28
So is £250 a day allot of money to earn keeping in mind the time between contracts? (Which does actually make for a nice holiday)

snaw
20th November 2006, 19:44
So is £250 a day allot of money to earn keeping in mind the time between contracts? (Which does actually make for a nice holiday)

Nope, anything but. Personally say that wasn't even on the scale.

IanIan
20th November 2006, 19:48
What's allot of money then? And has IT ever payed allot of money?

rge
20th November 2006, 20:07
What's allot of money then? And has IT ever payed allot of money?

I am interested to know this too. :banana: :cool:

DimPrawn
20th November 2006, 20:18
What's allot of money then? And has IT ever payed allot of money?

a lot
paid

HTH

:rolleyes:

PS ewe seam two brite too bee in IT

lilelvis2000
20th November 2006, 21:41
I would get your degree as an absolute minimum and then worry about the next stage in a few years time. Can you not do IT mixed with something else ?

IT contractors have been talking the demise of IT for 20 years but the number of jobs keep on growing ( with the odd slump ) and if you have got half a clue you should earn a reasonable living at it.

I know a lot of tradesmen and most of them work hard for less than 200 a day and are nearly all looking for an exit strategy by age 40. Most would jump at the chance of a cushy IT desk job. A few CORGI plumbers working for themselves may earn more than that but plenty don't and they will be grafting hard for it.


Degree??? what good is a degree gonna be when all you read about in these IT rags is how business wants candidates to be business focused? Uni's don't teach that way...and business sure isn't interested in training you..I've had a total of 3 weeks of training in 15 years of IT.

I remind everyone that IT grad's were the least able to find work this year.
http://money.guardian.co.uk/work/story/0,,1844427,00.html

How ironic...plumbers wanting to move into IT and IT pros. wanting to move into plumbing.

I personally am telling anyone who asks if its a good time to move into IT, to take accounting or business administration instead.

snaw
20th November 2006, 21:44
A lot? Well I worked with one guy who's on 750 a day, direct, and has been for a number of years. I'd say that's a lot. Anything less than that is decent but not wow.

I know a project manager who was on over a grand a day in the lead up to the millenium. I'm sure some here know guys who'll top that. Then if you peel the layers of the onion with some outsourced services - client gets billed by company to provide on site service, who pay another company, who pay another company. One gig I was at recently had some onsite 'Cisco' guys for a project, except they themselves weren't really Cisco and they'd worked out there were 5 layers between them getting paid and the client paying. And they were taking home at least 600 a day.

IanIan
20th November 2006, 22:12
Are these big contracts outside of the financial sector?

The agents tell me that the going rate for Flash dev is £250 - £300 / day. Yet they keep offering me as low as £175.

rge
20th November 2006, 22:12
Degree??? what good is a degree gonna be when all you read about in these IT rags is how business wants candidates to be business focused? Uni's don't teach that way...and business sure isn't interested in training you..I've had a total of 3 weeks of training in 15 years of IT.

I remind everyone that IT grad's were the least able to find work this year.
http://money.guardian.co.uk/work/story/0,,1844427,00.html

How ironic...plumbers wanting to move into IT and IT pros. wanting to move into plumbing.

I personally am telling anyone who asks if its a good time to move into IT, to take accounting or business administration instead.

Does accounting and business offer better salary and employment prospects, or is it a strong industry?

snaw
20th November 2006, 22:29
Are these big contracts outside of the financial sector?

The agents tell me that the going rate for Flash dev is £250 - £300 / day. Yet they keep offering me as low as £175.

I get emails from agents looking for CCIE's for £25 an hour. Doesn't mean they're ever gonna find anyone. But they can offer crap money all day long and regularily do. That's cause generally, IMO, they know SFA about the business they are recruiting in. Or they're form some shit part of the country trying to recruit into some regionalised govnmt dept who want premiership level players but pay conference wages.

A wise old man (Contractor of course) once gave me a vary insightful peice of advice: You don't get paid what you are worth, you get paid what you can get!

expat
21st November 2006, 08:31
Are these big contracts outside of the financial sector?

The agents tell me that the going rate for Flash dev is £250 - £300 / day. Yet they keep offering me as low as £175.IanIan, are we talking about what is the case, or what agents tell you?

rootsnall
21st November 2006, 08:33
Degree??? what good is a degree gonna be when all you read about in these IT rags is how business wants candidates to be business focused? Uni's don't teach that way...and business sure isn't interested in training you..I've had a total of 3 weeks of training in 15 years of IT.

The degree is your entry point to IT or whatever other opportunities may come along. Without it you are limiting your future options. I wouldn't be advising anyone to go into the building trade if they have other decent options open to them, and I'd include doing an IT degree as one.

The 'business focused' talk is just waffle, every IT job I've ever had has been business focussed and you can 'business focus' your CV in 10 minutes.

bobhope
21st November 2006, 08:44
The problem is sustainability rather than the rate per se. If you can guarantee £300 - 400/day for 20 years, then you could easily semi-retire in your 40s. Unfortunately, the outlook for IT is somewhat murky.

Take a look at the statistics on average earnings in the UK. The median wage is ~25k. The 90th percentile is something like 45k (gross).

Sockpuppet
21st November 2006, 09:20
Hi, can i ask what is a logistician? And how can you earn so much for so few hours?

Its a word I made up... sounds better than logistics gopher. I dont know, it might be a real word who knows.

Basically the roles I do are:

Lean Manufacturing,
Six Sigma Analyst,
PRINCE 2 Practioner,
Logistics Project Analyst,
etc...

I "design" logistics solutions. So thats where your warehouses are, transport links, how many people, layout of warehouses etc etc....

Why do I work so little? Well I can knock out stuff fairly quickly and its really not that hard...more common sense.

Zippy
21st November 2006, 09:23
I'd say if you are interested in IT (and it's a HUGE subject), go for the degree. I enjoyed mine so much I went back and did a masters :D

Qualifications don't seem to be a guarantee of getting a job but you will get a very good all round knowledge, helping you to deal with those situations where you suddenly have to start working in a different environments/languages.

As for the supposed lack of teaching of business skills, I certainly got plenty of that - Communications, presentation skills, project management etc. The roles I have had since have tended to use a blend of technical and business skills (and a fair amount of resilience!).

Good luck with whatever you decide to do :wave:

premiere
21st November 2006, 10:22
Lifelong friend of mine used to work in IT as a Sybase DBA.

He then left the industry to go to Uni and get a degree in Biochemistry.

Got his degree, then stayed on at Uni to convert his BSc to a Phd.

Got halfway through his Phd and then left after he 'found god'

Now he's doing a 3 year course or something, to become a priest :eek:

SallyAnne
21st November 2006, 10:25
Lifelong friend of mine used to work in IT as a Sybase DBA.

He then left the industry to go to Uni and get a degree in Biochemistry.

Got his degree, then stayed on at Uni to convert his BSc to a Phd.

Got halfway through his Phd and then left after he 'found god'

Now he's doing a 3 year course or something, to become a priest :eek:


Whats the moral of that story then? :)

Zippy
21st November 2006, 10:25
Got halfway through his Phd and then left after he 'found god'

Now he's doing a 3 year course or something, to become a priest :eek:

How much does that pay? ;)

rootsnall
21st November 2006, 10:56
How much does that pay? ;)

circa 20K but you get your accomo provided which is very important these days.

rge
21st November 2006, 11:26
What about outsourcing, doesn't that mean that india etc can do programming for much lower rates? What will stop all programming and work that can be outsourced from being outsourced?

jenever
21st November 2006, 11:33
How much does that pay? ;)

God only knows

premiere
21st November 2006, 11:44
Considering he was born a Roman Catholic and has now joined
C of E...apparantly they welcomed him with open arms...Ooer!

Think he gets (eventually) a rent and bill free huge house out the back of his 'workplace' and a few quid in his bin.

All he has to do is marry unfortunate folk and then bury'em after they divorce.

rge
21st November 2006, 12:40
Its a word I made up... sounds better than logistics gopher. I dont know, it might be a real word who knows.

Basically the roles I do are:

Lean Manufacturing,
Six Sigma Analyst,
PRINCE 2 Practioner,
Logistics Project Analyst,
etc...

I "design" logistics solutions. So thats where your warehouses are, transport links, how many people, layout of warehouses etc etc....

Why do I work so little? Well I can knock out stuff fairly quickly and its really not that hard...more common sense.


What qualifications do you need to do this? How did you start? What are the prospects like?

Sockpuppet
21st November 2006, 12:56
None as far as I am aware...

The route I took was: Uni -> Graduate Placement Scheme -> Contracting

On the placement scheme I worked as team leader, project manager, project analyst, account manager, lean consultant so was quite lucky. Unfortunatly its the kind of job where 90% of the time you need to start at the bottom and work your way up. You can go straight into this kind of work but you'd be looking more at the project side of the work which is nice.

The prospects are good. The logistics industry is expanding at a fast rate and living in europe we are a hub for the rest of the world so I can't see it stopping anytime soon. There is also not enough people entering logistics as its not seen as very "glamerous" ... well its not. Dusty shite stored in a warehouse doesnt get me all hot and bothered....but the chance to work abroad does.

Did you say you were pre-degree? If so look at Cardiff and the LERC and look at doing a logistics degree which is always a good start. Its management based as well so allows you to move and change as you like.

AlfredJPruffock
21st November 2006, 13:39
What qualifications do you need to do this? How did you start? What are the prospects like?

Hexagram 32 Duration


Nine in the fourth place means:
No game in the field.

If we are in pursuit of game and want to get a shot at a quarry, we must set about it in the right way.

A man who persists in stalking game in a place where there is none may wait forever without finding any.

Persistence in search is not enough. What is not sought in the right way is not found.

expat
21st November 2006, 13:40
Hexagram 32 Duration


Nine in the fourth place means:
No game in the field.

If we are in pursuit of game and want to get a shot at a quarry, we must set about it in the right way.

A man who persists in stalking game in a place where there is none may wait forever without finding any.

Persistence in search is not enough. What is not sought in the right way is not found. At all times, the path into hexagram 32 is that of 50 - transforming. What this implies is that the change of any hexagram into 32 is forced to go through the characteristics of 32

At all times the path out of hexagram 32 is the opposite of the path in - in this case the path described by 03 - Difficult beginnings. Thus the process of hexagram 32 changing into any other hexagram has to pass through hexagram 03 to start.



No blame.

IanIan
21st November 2006, 16:30
IanIan, are we talking about what is the case, or what agents tell you?

They lie?! Why would they exagerate the going rate?

DaveB
21st November 2006, 16:42
They lie?! Why would they exagerate the going rate?


Because they are agents. They will hook you with a promise of a high rate, get you into the client etc and at the last minute tell you the client has dropped the rate. This is in the hope that you will not be in a position to turn it down and be forced to take the low rate which gives them more commision and makes the client think the agent is good for getting them a skilled developer for peanuts.

Treat agents in the same way as you would treat the dodgiest of dodgy used car salesmen and you won't go far wrong.

IanIan
21st November 2006, 16:48
Yeah but that's not happening. They're being up front with rates for actual jobs from the start.

(Sorry for the change of topic here.)

expat
21st November 2006, 16:57
Yeah but that's not happening. They're being up front with rates for actual jobs from the start.

(Sorry for the change of topic here.)You don't know that until you've got the contract.

hattra
21st November 2006, 23:16
What about outsourcing, doesn't that mean that india etc can do programming for much lower rates? What will stop all programming and work that can be outsourced from being outsourced?

Their rates are low, but so is their quality. I once worked for a US company that had to scrap $16million worth of Indian (and I don't mean Native American) development work, because it didn't work.

Then they imported two hundred Chinese coders into their Chicago offices to try again.

Then they went bust..........

Lucy
21st November 2006, 23:17
Their rates are low, but so is their quality. I once worked for a US company that had to scrap $16million worth of Indian (and I don't mean Native American) development work, because it didn't work.

Then they imported two hundred Chinese coders into their Chicago offices to try again.

Then they went bust..........

Is that like adding insult to injury ?

Worzel Gummidge
12th January 2007, 10:28
Personally, i work in three main areas of IT:

- Interim IT Management
- Project Management
- Consultancy

this means i can cherry pick jobs and generally my daily rate is between £300-£600 per day depending on location. You have to flexible though and be confident in your ability to deliver. A strong technical background is important as is exposure to diverse environments, and a willingness to learn and upskill. All of which takes time to achieve (over 12 years in my case). The reality is that now I am comfortable in what i do and sometimes I even enjoy it :eek:

IT is massive, but certainly in the areas I work you almost have to be jack of all trades and master of all. Always get the relevant qualifications to backup you up; in my case Prince 2, ITIL and MCP.

If you do it right, you could work for six months and have six months off; this presupposes the idea that you might have kids etc - they totally screw you plans up for life !!!

Not that I'm bitter..//// :spank:

Good luck, although if given the choice i'd probably do marine biology or become a park ranger or summing like that :rolleyes:

Francko
12th January 2007, 10:36
I think like anything if you're good you can do well, but the days where the average Joe made loads in IT because he knew his way round a phillips screwdriver, are gone.

Yes, but they will be back again. Let me build a simple model. People enrolled to IT courses less and less -> IT demand goes higher than ever ->outsourcing less available because India and China economies grow -> less resources to choose from -> what happens?

We'll talk about this in 5-10 years time. Let's save this post for memory.