PDA

View Full Version : Simple solution to the Brexit problem - stay in Europe AND cancel Freedom of Movement



sasguru
12th June 2017, 15:13
Simply implement EUROPEAN DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.

"Article 7 Right of residence for more than three months 1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they: (a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or (b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or (c) – are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and – have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence"

OK (a) allows low paid workers - but Switzerland manages to make it impossible, so could we.

OwlHoot
12th June 2017, 15:24
No need to read the small print I'm afraid. It won't work. For the EU free trade and freedom of movement are inextricably linked.

And again, even if they agreed to something like that, how long would it be before they cancelled the concession?

VectraMan
12th June 2017, 15:35
No need to read the small print I'm afraid. It won't work. For the EU free trade and freedom of movement are inextricably linked.

And again, even if they agreed to something like that, how long would it be before they cancelled the concession?

I think you may have missed the point.

What we should do is have a referendum on that as a "taking control of our borders" measure and then when people vote for it we can say "Aha!".

northernladyuk
12th June 2017, 15:36
No need to read the small print I'm afraid. It won't work. For the EU free trade and freedom of movement are inextricably linked.

And again, even if they agreed to something like that, how long would it be before they cancelled the concession?

Free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour . Not free movement of people.

OwlHoot
12th June 2017, 15:41
I think you may have missed the point.

What we should do is have a referendum on that as a "taking control of our borders" measure and then when people vote for it we can say "Aha!".

and no doubt that referendum could be won with a 70% majority, but the EU would simply say no!

It's like a gang unanimously voting to help themselves to some gold bars from the Bank of England. It is undoubtedly a good idea, and no doubt everyone in the gang would be very keen, but the Bank would go and spoil the whole thing by refusing to open the vault doors!

Mordac
12th June 2017, 15:58
Simply implement EUROPEAN DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.

"some waffly crap..."

OK (a) allows low paid workers - but Switzerland manages to make it impossible, so could we.

Switzerland isn't in the EU. That's how they "make it impossible".

HTHBIDI

sasguru
12th June 2017, 16:08
Switzerland isn't in the EU. That's how they "make it impossible".

HTHBIDI

Ostensibly, they have to abide by FoM, you ignorant cretin.
That's the point.:rolleyes:

Mordac
12th June 2017, 16:20
Ostensibly, they have to abide by FoM, you ignorant cretin.
That's the point.:rolleyes:

As you have demonstrated, they don't. Certainly not to the extent that EU member states have to.

BlasterBates
12th June 2017, 16:23
The problem has already been solved.

Virtually no EU migration (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/25/net-migration-eastern-eurpoe-slows-trickle/)

:D

sasguru
12th June 2017, 16:28
As you have demonstrated, they don't. Certainly not to the extent that EU member states have to.

Whoooshh.:laugh
You really are spectacularly idiotic.

BlasterBates
12th June 2017, 16:30
As you have demonstrated, they don't. Certainly not to the extent that EU member states have to.

I was in Switzerland, they do.

:)

sasguru
12th June 2017, 16:32
I was in Switzerland, they do.

:)

He'll get there in the end. Maybe.

SueEllen
12th June 2017, 17:34
I was in Switzerland, they do.

:)

He's just thick.

He doesn't realise every European country has worked out how to chuck out people who beg etc after 3 months who come from another EU country except the British under FOM rules..

Even worse the last Home Secretary who could have implemented this to scupper the referendum was....

darmstadt
12th June 2017, 18:18
They're in denial ...

NotAllThere
12th June 2017, 20:03
OK (a) allows low paid workers - but Switzerland manages to make it impossible, so could we.
Switzerland isn't in the EU. That's how they "make it impossible".


Ostensibly, they have to abide by FoM, you ignorant cretin.
That's the point.:rolleyes:

As you have demonstrated, they don't. Certainly not to the extent that EU member states have to.

I was in Switzerland, they do.

I live in Switzerland. You cannot work here if your income is below a certain limit, for more than three months, unless you meet certain criteria (like being a student for a low paid internship). However, contrary to what Mordac thinks, this is in line with EU law.

The reason the UK haven't done this, is because, unlike the rest of Europe, whose legal system is derived from the Napoleonic code, there is no requirement for people moving into a new town or village, to register with the local authorities. In the UK, there's no realistic way of policing it, without introducing some form of obligatory ID card, and/or making people register where they live. And that's not going to happen because "it's not British".

Yes, I know... electoral register, driving licence et. al. But it really isn't the same as having to carry ID around with you, demonstrating your right to be where you are.

BrilloPad
12th June 2017, 20:07
The immigration Issue could have been solved easily. Stop non-EU immigration.

DC yet again showing how out of touch he was.

Mordac
12th June 2017, 20:09
I was in Switzerland, they do.

:)

How do you explain the need to apply for a residency permit in addition to a work permit, both usually limited to 1 year? (There are quite a few to choose from, but then you knew that). Freedom of movement, and the ability to apply for a permit with very stringent restrictions, are not the same thing. Put me out of my misery and tell me which bits of this I got wrong.

xoggoth
12th June 2017, 20:26
As others have said above we could have been stricter on low earners, those claiming benefit or criminals, had we chosen to do so. Our governments are too generous and too ready to implement EU rules that some others ignore.

SueEllen
12th June 2017, 20:34
I live in Switzerland. You cannot work here if your income is below a certain limit, for more than three months, unless you meet certain criteria (like being a student for a low paid internship). However, contrary to what Mordac thinks, this is in line with EU law.

The reason the UK haven't done this, is because, unlike the rest of Europe, whose legal system is derived from the Napoleonic code, there is no requirement for people moving into a new town or village, to register with the local authorities. In the UK, there's no realistic way of policing it, without introducing some form of obligatory ID card, and/or making people register where they live. And that's not going to happen because "it's not British".

Yes, I know... electoral register, driving licence et. al. But it really isn't the same as having to carry ID around with you, demonstrating your right to be where you are.

Tony Blair tried to introduce ID cards as he clearly knew he had fecked up.

There was a fight against it which the Tories backed.

SueEllen
12th June 2017, 20:41
How do you explain the need to apply for a residency permit in addition to a work permit, both usually limited to 1 year? (There are quite a few to choose from, but then you knew that). Freedom of movement, and the ability to apply for a permit with very stringent restrictions, are not the same thing. Put me out of my misery and tell me which bits of this I got wrong.

If you go to France, Spain, Finland, Austria etc and want to stay more than 3 months you need to register at the local town hall/police station/registration office, say what you are doing in the country and state/prove how you will support yourself.

If you don't you can be fined or chucked out of the country.

If you don't have a means to support yourself and you aren't married/have a long term partner who will support you, then you have to leave the country after 3 months for a period of time. This period can be as little as 24 hours. If you don't then you can be chucked out. Though most people aren't chucked out like Sarkozy chucked out the Roma they leave voluntary.

xoggoth
12th June 2017, 21:00
If you don't have a means to support yourself and you aren't married/have a long term partner who will support you, then you have to leave the country after 3 months for a period of time

Not what it says in the EU rules SE. Article 7 only says you have to be employed or self employed, nowt about being able to support yourself without resort to benefits. Why those Big Issue Sellers get to stay here. If other countries do do what you said, maybe we are just obeying the rules too much.

Thought I'd read a while ago that we could get rid of serious criminals. Not always the case it seems:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/eu-derived-rights-residence-not-automatically-lost-crime-committed/

Just show why the EU is such crap really. Articles should have stated that all migrants should be self supporting without resort to long term benefits and any with a serious criminal record (as defined) have no right to remain. Stricter rules would have seen the EU viewed more favourably.

xoggoth
12th June 2017, 21:03
Tony Blair tried to introduce ID cards as he clearly knew he had fecked up

One so Blair's sensible policies. Don't see why there is such opposition to ID cards.

SueEllen
12th June 2017, 21:06
Not what it says in the EU rules SE. Article 7 only says you have to be employed or self employed, nowt about being able to support yourself without resort to benefits. Why those Big Issue Sellers get to stay here. If other countries do do what you said, maybe we are just obeying the rules too much.


Their benefit rules are different to the UK.

In nearly all European countries if you don't pay in and aren't a resident for long enough you aren't entitled to benefits. So if you have no money you have no choice but to feck off to your home country.

In the UK as long as you are looking for work you are entitled to unemployment benefit. They have clamped down on housing benefit here which has left landlords out of pocket.

BlasterBates
12th June 2017, 21:09
The EU will be offering a transitional deal in the EEA so freedom of movement will be continuing indefinitely anyway, because it will take years to hammer out the final deal. In the meantime EU citizens have in any case stopped coming to the UK. Brexit is yesterday's story :D

The story will be how can the UK attract enough workers from the EU, in particular nurses who are now not coming at all.

SueEllen
12th June 2017, 21:13
The EU will be offering a transitional deal in the EEA so freedom of movement will be continuing indefinitely anyway, because it will take years to hammer out the final deal. In the meantime EU citizens have in any case stopped coming to the UK. Brexit is yesterday's story :D

The story will be how can the UK attract enough workers from the EU, in particular nurses who are now not coming at all.

Don't get old or ill.

xoggoth
12th June 2017, 21:20
Their benefit rules are different to the UK

Theirs seem a damn site more sensible. Somebody was telling me yesterday about the Swiss system:

Social security in Switzerland – and claiming your benefits | About Switzerland | Expatica Switzerland (http://www.expatica.com/ch/about/Social-security-in-Switzerland_104573.html)

Nice to have a government that would tighten up our benefits system. I don't thing Corbyn will be the man to rely on.

xoggoth
12th June 2017, 21:40
A revamp of our benefits system in line with those of France etc. would help to solve the Calais migrant problem too. The mayor of Calais was not wrong.

darmstadt
13th June 2017, 05:54
Remember though that this directive only applies to EU citizens, not non-EU of which there are more migrants in the UK than EU migrants....

meridian
13th June 2017, 06:42
Remember though that this directive only applies to EU citizens, not non-EU of which there are more migrants in the UK than EU migrants....

Now if only we had control of our borders to non-EU immigration, a manifesto promise to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands, and a strong and stable Home Secretary for the past 7 years to come up with some way of managing this.....

milanbenes
13th June 2017, 06:47
Thought I'd read a while ago that we could get rid of serious criminals. Not always the case it seems:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/eu-derived-rights-residence-not-automatically-lost-crime-committed/

Just show why the EU is such crap really. Articles should have stated that all migrants should be self supporting without resort to long term benefits and any with a serious criminal record (as defined) have no right to remain. Stricter rules would have seen the EU viewed more favourably.

that's not quite true, I have been on enough flights from Munich and Frankfurt and seen the Police putting criminals on the plane to send them back to their countries

Milan.

original PM
13th June 2017, 07:04
Remember though that this directive only applies to EU citizens, not non-EU of which there are more migrants in the UK than EU migrants....

Yeah so they arrive in Greece, get EU citizenship and then can go anywhere.

We have been here before.

Does anyone have any links to the eu threatening Poland for not allowing any migrants?

You vill obey ze rules or vi vill invade.

NotAllThere
13th June 2017, 07:11
How do you explain the need to apply for a residency permit in addition to a work permit, both usually limited to 1 year? (There are quite a few to choose from, but then you knew that). Freedom of movement, and the ability to apply for a permit with very stringent restrictions, are not the same thing. Put me out of my misery and tell me which bits of this I got wrong.If you have a residency permit and you're from the EU, that is your work permit. You have three months to get a job. To get a residency/work permit, the job must pay above a certain limit, and you must have a Swiss address. There are no other restrictions.

For non-EU there are residency permits that do not permit work (e.g. trailing spouses, asylum seekers). An EU spouse might get one of these, but if they get a job, it's automatically converted. No restrictions at all. For non-EU, the residency/work permit may be linked to their employer. Lose your job? You've got 3 months to leave the country.

There are residency permits that allow work, but only if your employer can demonstrate they couldn't find a Swiss nor an EU citizen.


Yeah so they arrive in Greece, get EU citizenship and then can go anywhere.

We have been here before. .To get EU citizenship (outside the UK), requires at least 5 years continuous legal residence, certified fluency in the local language and often knowledge of the country's history and political system, and freedom from debts. Getting EU citizenship is not just a matter of sending in an application form.

darmstadt
13th June 2017, 07:28
More old propaganda bollocks from the anti-foreigner Leavers

FTFY

Mordac
13th June 2017, 08:37
If you have a residency permit and you're from the EU, that is your work permit. You have three months to get a job. To get a residency/work permit, the job must pay above a certain limit, and you must have a Swiss address. There are no other restrictions.

For non-EU there are residency permits that do not permit work (e.g. trailing spouses, asylum seekers). An EU spouse might get one of these, but if they get a job, it's automatically converted. No restrictions at all. For non-EU, the residency/work permit may be linked to their employer. Lose your job? You've got 3 months to leave the country.

There are residency permits that allow work, but only if your employer can demonstrate they couldn't find a Swiss nor an EU citizen.


Thanks for clarifying that NAT.

sasguru
13th June 2017, 09:04
Thanks for clarifying that NAT.

I'm glad you finally understand that you can be within Schengen and be bound by EU FoM rules, while still being, shall we say, pragmatic about who you let in.
There used to be a time when the British were the quintessential pragmatic people but poor education has led to too many being ideological.

northernladyuk
13th June 2017, 09:08
Yeah so they arrive in Greece, get EU citizenship and then can go anywhere.

We have been here before.

Does anyone have any links to the eu threatening Poland for not allowing any migrants?

You vill obey ze rules or vi vill invade.

Who is being given Greek citizenship in mass numbers? It isn't an easy process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_nationality_law

eek
13th June 2017, 09:11
The simple solution would have been for Labour back in 2007 to implement the proposed changes that made our benefits system contribution based rather than a free for all.

Then Eastern Europeans wouldn't then be getting their wages topped up with benefits as soon as they arrived in the country and would instead have had to both work here for 5 years before claiming...

Uncle Albert
13th June 2017, 09:19
There used to be a time when the British were the quintessential pragmatic people but poor education has led to too many being ideological.

This book was mentioned on Radio 4 this morning: https://profilebooks.com/the-stupidity-paradox.html

Essential reading for any non cretins.

Mordac
13th June 2017, 09:21
Does anyone have any links to the eu threatening Poland for not allowing any migrants?

You vill obey ze rules or vi vill invade.

It does appear to be correct that Poland refuses to admit asylum seekers, but the article below specifically criticises the EU for not speaking out against the Polish Government:


The European Commission has failed to speak publicly about Poland’s denial of access to asylum procedures at its border with Belarus. The EU is seeking to step up migration cooperation with Belarus. An October 2016 EU-Belarus “mobility partnership” agreement includes “enhance[d] operational cooperation on return” of third country nationals and combating irregular migration as priorities. The commission plans to provide Belarus €7 million in financial support to build open and closed reception facilities for irregular migrants as part of a wider deal on migration cooperation including a future readmission agreement. Poland has no bilateral readmission agreement with Belarus.

“The Commission’s failure to call out Poland’s denial of access to asylum at its border with Belarus makes the prospect of EU migration cooperation with Belarus deeply worrying,” Gall said. “The Commission should press Warsaw to halt summary returns to Belarus and ensure that all asylum seekers approaching Poland’s border can lodge their claims and have them decided in a fair way. And it should make sure that its migration cooperation with Belarus does not lead to asylum seekers being denied access to protection.”

Full text below (From Human Rights Watch)

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/03/01/poland-asylum-seekers-blocked-border

SueEllen
13th June 2017, 09:28
The simple solution would have been for Labour back in 2007 to implement the proposed changes that made our benefits system contribution based rather than a free for all.

Then Eastern Europeans wouldn't then be getting their wages topped up with benefits as soon as they arrived in the country and would instead have had to both work here for 5 years before claiming...

The Tories threatened to do that and were going to make a pigs ear of it. They stated they couldn't do it to Eastern Europeans without doing it to British citizens.

However they forgot that many systems have a residency requirement as well so if you were educated here before the age of 16 you qualify. That way those in the care system or are disabled and have lived here all their lives aren't made destitute.

BlasterBates
13th June 2017, 09:58
Who is being given Greek citizenship in mass numbers? It isn't an easy process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_nationality_law

I think we get an inkiing here as to why a referendum is a bad idea to make an important political decision.

:D

Mordac
13th June 2017, 09:59
I think we get an inkiing here as to why a referendum is a bad idea to make an important political decision.

:D

Try telling Scooty that...:wink

northernladyuk
13th June 2017, 10:03
Try telling Scooty that...:wink

He doesn't get a vote in IndyRef.

BlasterBates
13th June 2017, 10:04
Michael Gove calls for an Open approach on Brexit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-brexit-approach-theresa-may-eu-stance-talks-deal-european-union-conservative-cabinet-a7787196.html)

I think the Tories survival instinct is kicking in as they now ditch Brexit.

:D

northernladyuk
13th June 2017, 10:05
Michael Gove calls for an Open approach on Brexit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-brexit-approach-theresa-may-eu-stance-talks-deal-european-union-conservative-cabinet-a7787196.html)

I think the Tories survival instinct is kicking in as they now ditch Brexit.

:D

It will be amusing when they stop dithering about what they want, and then realise that they can only have what the EU agrees to.

Mordac
13th June 2017, 10:10
He doesn't get a vote in IndyRef.

I'm sure he'd be able find someone to "put him up" for just long enough to register to vote.

BlasterBates
13th June 2017, 10:14
It will be amusing when they stop dithering about what they want, and then realise that they can only have what the EU agrees to.

Osborne on the Andrew Marr show said, having talked to EU colleagues, that he expected the EU to make an offer to enter the EEA, and that he expects the UK to be there for many years.

I think it is clear, the negotiations will be primarily about the bill and when they've ground the UK down will give them just a few months or weeks even to decide on EEA membership complete with FOM, hefty budget contributions and subject to European court of justice or risk being thrown out completely.


:D

northernladyuk
13th June 2017, 10:15
Osborne on the Andrew Marr show said, having talked to EU colleagues, that he expected the EU to make an offer to enter the EEA, and that he expects the UK to be there for many years.

I think it is clear, the negotiations will be primarily about the bill and when they've ground the UK down will give them just a few months or weeks even to decide on EEA membership complete with FOM, budget demands and subject to European court of justice or risk being thrown out completely.

:D

I expect that membership fees will be £350,000,000 per week with no rebate.

BlasterBates
13th June 2017, 10:18
I expect that membership fees will be £350,000,000 per week with no rebate.

...and then finally they will erect a huge billboard in Brussels that states:

EU 10 UK 0

:D

SueEllen
13th June 2017, 10:19
...and then finally they will erect a huge billboard in Brussels that states:

EU 10 UK 0

:D

Nah they will just find a German politician to make a sarcastic killer comment about the Tories....

BlasterBates
13th June 2017, 10:23
and before I forget, on 1st April 2020 they will unanimously pass a new directive to force the clearing of Euro based derivatives in the EU so generating a 100,000 new jobs and a much needed increase in tax revenue to fund public sector jobs for EU citizens returning from the UK.

diseasex
13th June 2017, 10:27
to fund public sector jobs for dodgy EU citizens returning from the UK.

hooray

sasguru
13th June 2017, 10:30
Osborne on the Andrew Marr show said, having talked to EU colleagues, that he expected the EU to make an offer to enter the EEA, and that he expects the UK to be there for many years.

I think it is clear, the negotiations will be primarily about the bill and when they've ground the UK down will give them just a few months or weeks even to decide on EEA membership complete with FOM, hefty budget contributions and subject to European court of justice or risk being thrown out completely.


:D

What does a middling European power with very little indigenous manufacturing industry and a reliance on debt to prop up its standard of living really expect? What happened to our educational standards that 52% of the population can't see this reality?

northernladyuk
13th June 2017, 10:31
...and then finally they will erect a huge billboard in Brussels that states:

EU 10 UK 0

:D

Or simply:

Royaume-Uni Nil Points