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Troll
22nd November 2006, 12:06
House of horrors killer Rose West has reportedly been treated to an evening of gourmet food and opera singing in prison.

The Sun published details of a feast enjoyed by the 52-year-old - who was jailed in 1995 over a series of gruesome murders she committed with her husband Fred - and hundreds of other inmates at Bronzefield women's prison in Ashford, Middlesex.

But prison bosses insisted the menu cost the same as any other day's food and the entertainers were paid for by the prisoners.

It was reported that West and 400 fellow prisoners could choose from chicken supreme in tomato and garlic with olives and parmesan or baked fish with asparagus, fennel and mushrooms.

The meal was rounded off with tiramisu and cups of coffee before the inmates were serenaded by two Italian singers performing operatic arias to backing tapes.

Last week's Italian Day followed other Mexican and Jamaican themed events.

A source at the prison said: "The whole thing is a joke. The Italian menu would not have been out of place in a top class restaurant.

"The food cost at least £1,000 and the singers were hired for £800. But these women are in jail and are supposed to be being punished for their crimes."

Their victims were buried under the floor at their home, at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester. Fred West cheated justice by hanging himself in jail.

A spokesman for private firm Kalyx, formerly UK Detention Services, which runs the prison, said: "The Italian Day was part of the prison's cultural awareness programme, praised by the Chief Inspector of Prisons. The menu for that day cost the same as any other day's food and the entertainers were paid for by the prisoners."

DimPrawn
22nd November 2006, 12:17
If prison is so good, just stop paying your council tax and enjoy.

stackpole
22nd November 2006, 12:26
...gruesome murders she committed with her husband Fred - and hundreds of other inmates at Bronzefield women's prison in Ashford, Middlesex. I thought it was just her and Fred what done it!

Logie
22nd November 2006, 12:28
I thought she chose the skipjack tuna?

tim123
22nd November 2006, 12:51
"The food cost £1000"

Um that 2.50 per head. How is that extravagent?

Cooking food properly and serving it up nicely actualy costs nothing at all, even if top class resturants do charge a fortune for it.

What costs is the actual food itself and just because society has decided that we should lock these people up, doesn't mean that we should starve them.

tim

hyperD
22nd November 2006, 12:51
The Italian Day was part of the prison's cultural awareness programme, praised by the Chief Inspector of Prisons
As always, herein lies the problem.

Shouldn't think the meals rose above turkey twizzlers in terms of cusinary finesse, but the fact that some peruvian hat wearing, liberal numskull thought that the poor prisoner's rights were infringed by not having cultural days...FFS.

Still, at least we know where all the old Butlins camps and staff have ended up...

Logie
22nd November 2006, 12:52
Are you for real? You'll be inviting her round for the family dinner next.


"The food cost £1000"

Um that 2.50 per head. How is that extravagent?

Cooking food properly and serving it up nicely actualy costs nothing at all, even if top class resturants do charge a fortune for it.

What costs is the actual food itself and just because society has decided that we should lock these people up, doesn't mean that we should starve them.

tim

Ardesco
22nd November 2006, 12:53
"The food cost £1000"

Um that 2.50 per head. How is that extravagent?

Cooking food properly and serving it up nicely actualy costs nothing at all, even if top class resturants do charge a fortune for it.

What costs is the actual food itself and just because society has decided that we should lock these people up, doesn't mean that we should starve them.

tim

Nope, but they should be made to eat gruel 3 times a day, every day. So simple to cook you have have any prisoner do it themselves, cheapest of the cheap and the mind numbing boredom of eating the same meal day in day out for x number or years will destory thier will to live hence creating more space in prisons for the other scum that are waiting for a free room.

HTH

NEXT!!

PRC1964
22nd November 2006, 12:53
Quite right Tim.

Also being forced to listen to Opera is a horrendous torture to inflict on the poor prisoners.

Logie
22nd November 2006, 12:55
Rosemary West will never leave prison so the right thing to do would be to serve her up to all the prisoners. Then we won't have to pay for fukkers like her and the rest get a good meal to keep Tim happy.

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 12:56
This kind of thing makes me sick. I thought prison was supposed to be a punishment and a deterrant to others. With all the 'rights' that prisoners have these days they are more like a holiday camp :mad:

xxx rated lady
22nd November 2006, 13:01
You would need Hannibal Lector's best selling cook book "101 things to go with fava beans and Chianti" for that.

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 13:03
Well John, that's the response the article was designed to elicit. I wouldn't really want to go, would you?

I thought being sent to prison was the punishment rather than being punished while you were there. It should be a place of rehabilitation. IMHO there are far too many people in prison that should not be there. Keep it for child molesters, murderers, rapists and violent criminals.

BTW; Has anyone else been watching Lock Them Up or Let Them Out?
(it's on the nasty BBC for the hard of thinking)

expat
22nd November 2006, 13:06
I thought being sent to prison was the punishment rather than being punished while you were there.A thoughtful, logical, humane, intelligent and courteous response. You're banned!

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 13:08
Well John, that's the response the article was designed to elicit. I wouldn't really want to go, would you?

I thought being sent to prison was the punishment rather than being punished while you were there. It should be a place of rehabilitation. IMHO there are far too many people in prison that should not be there. Keep it for child molesters, murderers, rapists and violent criminals.

BTW; Has anyone else been watching Lock Them Up or Let Them Out?
(it's on the nasty BBC for the hard of thinking)

I am not sure that 'being deprived of your liberty' is really any deterent at all for many of the people who get sent to prison. I think these days a term inside is worn like a badge of honour for most habitual prisoners and whilst they have access to drugs, decent food, tv, gyms etc etc it will continue that way. There seems to be little evidence that rehabilitation in prisons is effective as there are so many repeat offenders, especially sex offenders. I agree that there are far too many people in prison but I also think that if going to prison was something to fear for your average criminal crime rates would fall.

Logie
22nd November 2006, 13:12
18 hours a day in chain gangs cleaning up grass verges or breaking up rocks is all the 'rehabilitation' they need.

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 13:13
18 hours a day in chain gangs cleaning up grass verges or breaking up rocks is all the 'rehabilitation' they need.

And what will they be able to contribute when they get out?

Answer: they will be much fitter criminals

Logie
22nd November 2006, 13:17
You telling me Sky TV, weed on tap is going to do a better job?

I'm going to revise my intial suggestion. We will split them up into two groups. One will dig a big hole, the other group will fill the hole dug the previous day.

Day in day out, the only thing to break the monotony is the small amount of sleep allowed.


And what will they be able to contribute when they get out?

Answer: they will be much fitter criminals

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 13:19
And what will they be able to contribute when they get out?

Answer: they will be much fitter criminals

And therefore able to work!

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 13:19
Prison clearly doesn't work.

The re-offending rate is something like 70%.

It is a much more complex issue than simply 'locking them up'. It's an outdated solution.

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 13:21
Prison clearly doesn't work.

The re-offending rate is something like 70%.

It is a much more complex issue than simply 'locking them up'. It's an outdated solution.

Do you not think that has something to do with the fact that prison is a soft option these days and hardened criminals have no fear of doing time? What would you suggest - education? Good idea but start it at age 5 not when they are 42 and serving their 3rd sentence for bashing some poor little old lady over the head!

DimPrawn
22nd November 2006, 13:21
What if prison became like 5 star hotels?

24 hr room service, top chefs, entertainment, every possible luxury, would your loss or liberty still be the deterent?

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 13:23
Do you not think that has something to do with the fact that prison is a soft option these days and hardened criminals have no fear of doing time? What would you suggest - education? Good idea but start it at age 5 not when they are 42 and serving their 3rd sentence for bashing some poor little old lady over the head!

I really don't know, but I have been on the outskirts of the criminal justice system and I do know that the same people just get worse and worse everytime they go in and out of prison. They also seem to think they have nothing worthwhile to contribute, so 'what the hell'.

Troll
22nd November 2006, 13:24
Prison clearly doesn't work.

The re-offending rate is something like 70%.

It is a much more complex issue than simply 'locking them up'. It's an outdated solution.
**********Looney liberal tree hugging wimmin alert**************
Are you the type of female that ends up marrying a convicted murderer?

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 13:26
**********Looney liberal tree hugging wimmin alert**************
Are you the type of female that ends up marrying a convicted murderer?

Are you offering ?

Denny
22nd November 2006, 13:29
It would have been more appropriate to force RW to listen to Westlife.

West Life - get it? :rolleyes:

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 13:33
I really don't know, but I have been on the outskirts of the criminal justice system and I do know that the same people just get worse and worse everytime they go in and out of prison. They also seem to think they have nothing worthwhile to contribute, so 'what the hell'.

So you think if we could just make them feel good about themselves they would stop reoffending? The only way to stop the current downward spiral is to educate children that certain behaviour is unacceptable and has consequences and the worse the behaviour the worse the consequences. These days there is no incentive for anyone to behave, no real punishment for those who misbehave or, later in life, break the law and there is no discipline. To a certain extent I am sure that much crime is caused because the perpetrators have no self-respect or no sense of self-worth but much of it is caused by greed, spite and the 'its not fair' attitude that seems so prevalent at the moment

DimPrawn
22nd November 2006, 13:35
Remember, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

Speeding motorists are the only real crims.

Everyone else is just a misguided soul who needs a bit of Opera to cheer them up.

:rolleyes:

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 13:37
Which isn't changed by long sentences surrounded by similar types. I'm not saying I know what the answer is. It might have something more to do with children not being parented well, but how do you fix that ?

Troll
22nd November 2006, 13:37
I really don't know, but I have been on the outskirts of the criminal justice system and I do know that the same people just get worse and worse everytime they go in and out of prison. They also seem to think they have nothing worthwhile to contribute, so 'what the hell'.
Awww bless.... so what is society said 'what the hell'

&

Re-introduced the death sentance
Only released paedos to society with a large red P tattoed on their forheads
Operated a 2 strikes policy - i.e. thieves would have a hand amputated on the second offence

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 13:40
Awww bless.... so what is society said 'what the hell'

&

Re-introduced the death sentance
Only released paedos to society with a large red P tattoed on their forheads
Operated a 2 strikes policy - i.e. thieves would have a hand amputated on the second offence

You could always move to Iran, troll. Sounds like you are more of their values, or North Korea perhaps.

Logie
22nd November 2006, 13:47
I dunno, it's sounds good to me


You could always move to Iran, troll. Sounds like you are more of their values, or North Korea perhaps.

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 13:48
Which isn't changed by long sentences surrounded by similar types. I'm not saying I know what the answer is. It might have something more to do with children not being parented well, but how do you fix that ?

Discipline and encouragement. We are now in the third generation of people who have been actively discouraged from working and actively encouraged to take what they want rather than earning it - what do you expect - Utopia?

DimPrawn
22nd November 2006, 13:49
I expect a 1984 style Dystopian Socialist nightmare.

And I've got one!

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 13:52
I expect a 1984 style Dystopian Socialist nightmare.

And I've got one!

Precisely my dear Prawn

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 14:01
Precisely my dear Prawn

They haven't been in for 'your' 30 years.

Prison doesn't work as a deterent. Look at America, they have death penalties, chain gangs, as extreme as you like. They also have a worse crime problem than we have.

Criminals don't think about consequences, that's why they end up in prison.


We lock away more people in this country than any other european country and we also have the highest reoffending rate. Surely we need to try something that works?

Logie
22nd November 2006, 14:08
first offence -> death penalty. Problem solved.

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 14:13
They haven't been in for 'your' 30 years.

Prison doesn't work as a deterent. Look at America, they have death penalties, chain gangs, as extreme as you like. They also have a worse crime problem than we have.

Criminals don't think about consequences, that's why they end up in prison.


We lock away more people in this country than any other european country and we also have the highest reoffending rate. Surely we need to try something that works?

If someone is a sociopath or a psycopath then no deterrant will ever work and, to be honest, prison certainly wont but what's the alternative? I don't believe it is a case of not thinking about the consequences, I think it is a case of being prepared to take the risk of being caught - if the penalty is less then there is more chance that the risk will be taken.

America is an interesting example - we have followed their lead in human rights and in removing personal responsibility so naturally our crime patterns are becoming similar.

Have you ever been to a prison in Greece or Turkey or even France? Atrocious conditions.

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 14:15
I dunno, it's sounds good to me


:wave:

Troll
22nd November 2006, 14:21
You could always move to Iran, troll. Sounds like you are more of their values, or North Korea perhaps.
And your alternative is what exactly - more of the same - the liberal approach that has been trialled for the last 40 years is now demonstrably defunct.

Society and civilised behaviour is breaking down in this country, stupid “super nanny” type solutions are the sign of bankrupt thinking, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem will become.

I will accept draconian measures to correct the situation, & if the solution is to adopt harsh measures and these result in a better society then so be it.

These will become the values I teach my children – i.e. if you do this… then this will happen to you so don’t do it. If other parents don't adopt these measures or their children choose to ignore them, then have them removed from the gene pool...firm but fair

But YOU Lucy are now in charge - how would you fix it?

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 14:23
If someone is a sociopath or a psycopath then no deterrant will ever work and, to be honest, prison certainly wont but what's the alternative? I don't believe it is a case of not thinking about the consequences, I think it is a case of being prepared to take the risk of being caught - if the penalty is less then there is more chance that the risk will be taken.

America is an interesting example - we have followed their lead in human rights and in removing personal responsibility so naturally our crime patterns are becoming similar.

Have you ever been to a prison in Greece or Turkey or even France? Atrocious conditions.

If someone has the possibility of change then that avenue should be investigated.
If we have a skills shortage, what's wrong in training prisoners while in prison, giving them proper qualifications, making councils take them on so they get proper work experience?

Of course if someone is beyond rehabilitation then let them rot.

Seems to me we just churn out better criminals, and making it more pointless won't improve that.

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 14:34
If someone has the possibility of change then that avenue should be investigated.
If we have a skills shortage, what's wrong in training prisoners while in prison, giving them proper qualifications, making councils take them on so they get proper work experience?

Of course if someone is beyond rehabilitation then let them rot.

Seems to me we just churn out better criminals, and making it more pointless won't improve that.

But how do you judge who is beyond rehabilitation - many prisoners have been released early as it was deemed that had been rehabilitated and they have murdered, raped, robbed etc again.

You can only 'train' someone if they want to be trained. If they could be trained then why have the not responded to education before and got a job? Generally because they are greedy or lazy or up to the eyeballs on drugs

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 14:38
But how do you judge who is beyond rehabilitation - many prisoners have been released early as it was deemed that had been rehabilitated and they have murdered, raped, robbed etc again.

You can only 'train' someone if they want to be trained. If they could be trained then why have the not responded to education before and got a job? Generally because they are greedy or lazy or up to the eyeballs on drugs


It is before adulthood, it is something in the raising of children and family life.

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 14:44
But how do you judge who is beyond rehabilitation - many prisoners have been released early as it was deemed that had been rehabilitated and they have murdered, raped, robbed etc again.

You can only 'train' someone if they want to be trained. If they could be trained then why have the not responded to education before and got a job? Generally because they are greedy or lazy or up to the eyeballs on drugs

Maybe, but I think you can tell if someone is putting effort in, if you assess them on a regular basis. The carrot works better than the stick in most cases.

You have to admit just releasing people with no skills, no sense of remorse, and a chip on their shoulder against authority is probably not a good thing?

Re letting dangerous people out early, well that was due to miscommunication between the government agencies. Now the Home Secretary is vetoing many parole applications from 'ex' dangerous criminals.

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 14:56
Maybe, but I think you can tell if someone is putting effort in, if you assess them on a regular basis. The carrot works better than the stick in most cases.

You have to admit just releasing people with no skills, no sense of remorse, and a chip on their shoulder against authority is probably not a good thing?

Re letting dangerous people out early, well that was due to miscommunication between the government agencies. Now the Home Secretary is vetoing many parole applications from 'ex' dangerous criminals.

How can you tell is someone is putting effort in or if they're playing along - you would have to have a panel of resident psychiatrists. I think the carrot approach works better for most normal people but not necessarily for violent or habitual criminals - they understand the concept of punishment but not encouragement. In their world violence is respected and expected. You are seeing everything from the perspective of a respectable, law abiding man with strict morals and ethics. Rehabilitation would work with you because you have the intelligence to realise its purpose but most hardened criminals either have no desire to reform or they are of sub-normal intelligence and so the carrot is a waste of time.

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 15:07
How can you tell is someone is putting effort in or if they're playing along - you would have to have a panel of resident psychiatrists. I think the carrot approach works better for most normal people but not necessarily for violent or habitual criminals - they understand the concept of punishment but not encouragement. In their world violence is respected and expected. You are seeing everything from the perspective of a respectable, law abiding man with strict morals and ethics. Rehabilitation would work with you because you have the intelligence to realise its purpose but most hardened criminals either have no desire to reform or they are of sub-normal intelligence and so the carrot is a waste of time.

There must be some lessons to be learnt from countries that do manage to rehabilitate their criminals, unless there is something inherently different about 'ours'. I dunno, maybe there is.

I'm sure though there are people in prison who are fairly intelligent, although academically poor, they may not have had the stable family upbringing. I'm not making excuses for bad behaviour, I'm just saying that there must be some opportunity to make people mend their ways if they aren't a lost cause.

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 15:08
There must be some lessons to be learnt from countries that do manage to rehabilitate their criminals, unless there is something inherently different about 'ours'. I dunno, maybe there is.

I'm sure though there are people in prison who are fairly intelligent, although academically poor, they may not have had the stable family upbringing. I'm not making excuses for bad behaviour, I'm just saying that there must be some opportunity to make people mend their ways if they aren't a lost cause.

For some odd reason I agree with you pussycat.

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 15:10
You are me

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 15:12
You are me

I'm not that fluffy.

Ardesco
22nd November 2006, 15:17
Who's a fluffer?

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 15:23
There must be some lessons to be learnt from countries that do manage to rehabilitate their criminals, unless there is something inherently different about 'ours'. I dunno, maybe there is.

I'm sure though there are people in prison who are fairly intelligent, although academically poor, they may not have had the stable family upbringing. I'm not making excuses for bad behaviour, I'm just saying that there must be some opportunity to make people mend their ways if they aren't a lost cause.

You are making excuses - at the end of the day everyone has free will and can chose to commit crime or not. Many people with horribly bad backgrounds have gone on to be successful and some people with privileged backgrounds have gone on to commit murder. It is all about choice.

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 15:24
You are making excuses - at the end of the day everyone has free will and can chose to commit crime or not. Many people with horribly bad backgrounds have gone on to be successful and some people with privileged backgrounds have gone on to commit murder. It is all about choice.


And what makes people choose one way or another ?

If you could answer that...

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 15:26
Yes.

Lord Lucan used to post on here for a while...


??

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 15:31
And what makes people choose one way or another ?

If you could answer that...

They weigh up what they think they will get against the expected risk

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 15:31
Is he in prison ?

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 15:34
You are making excuses - at the end of the day everyone has free will and can chose to commit crime or not. Many people with horribly bad backgrounds have gone on to be successful and some people with privileged backgrounds have gone on to commit murder. It is all about choice.

I'm not saying their background made them do it, I'm saying they are likely to be people in prison from certain backgrounds who didn't do as well as they could have done due to the environment they grew up in. Kids learn behaviour from their parents, from their peers, they didn't choose those parents, yes they had free choice, but they also may have had limited exposure to decent people, maybe they would haved turned out bad whatever. But maybe, they have untapped potential, they're are people who do have, that are not beyond salvation.

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 15:35
http://forums.contractoruk.com/member.php?u=748

I don't understand, Zeity ...

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 15:59
I'm not saying their background made them do it, I'm saying they are likely to be people in prison from certain backgrounds who didn't do as well as they could have done due to the environment they grew up in. Kids learn behaviour from their parents, from their peers, they didn't choose those parents, yes they had free choice, but they also may have had limited exposure to decent people, maybe they would haved turned out bad whatever. But maybe, they have untapped potential, they're are people who do have, that are not beyond salvation.

Again, it is making excuses - I would think that there are very few people who have not had exposure to anyone who would have taught them right from wrong - whether at school, church, youth clubs etc Youngsters these days from bad backgrounds are, on the whole, given far more chances and opportunities than they had perhaps 50 years ago. As long as we make excuses the excuses will be used - how many times have you heard kids claiming a violation of human rights or accusing teachers of assault when they try to discipline them etc etc. There are no boundaries for kids these days because it is seen as wrong to discipline them and they will teach their kids accordingly - as a result crime will increase and, if we carry on as we are, there will be no real punishment.

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:04
It is not that simple.

Punishment is not a deterrant and in many cases just teaches kids that pain is an option.

Surely it is about being a modern society and applying some thinking to this, instead of just being so black and white.

Yes, we all have choices, but what makes people do what they do ?

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:06
They will do whatever they can...if they get away with it!

Next!

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:09
They will do whatever they can...if they get away with it!

Next!

A really annoying bird keeps following me.

Does anyone have a gun ?

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:10
A really annoying bird keeps following me.

Does anyone have a gun ?

No it's a pistol in my pocket! :eek:

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:11
A really annoying bird keeps following me.

Does anyone have a gun ?

I think you'll get about 20 yes's on this board!

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:12
Again, it is making excuses - I would think that there are very few people who have not had exposure to anyone who would have taught them right from wrong - whether at school, church, youth clubs etc Youngsters these days from bad backgrounds are, on the whole, given far more chances and opportunities than they had perhaps 50 years ago. As long as we make excuses the excuses will be used - how many times have you heard kids claiming a violation of human rights or accusing teachers of assault when they try to discipline them etc etc. There are no boundaries for kids these days because it is seen as wrong to discipline them and they will teach their kids accordingly - as a result crime will increase and, if we carry on as we are, there will be no real punishment.

If only the world was black and white it would be simple But...If you live on an estate where everyone is up to no good, chances are you will be up to no good. Obviously we have problems with kids from normal backgrounds being unrully, yes I agree they should be punnished (better than they are now), but most of them aren't going to end up as violent criminals. Those who do may not be all bad. Just locking them up and then releasing them is doing nothing. They won't get a job on release, nobody will employ an ex-criminal with no skills, what will they do? Take £60 a week in benefits or go back to crime?

To BI or not to BI?
22nd November 2006, 16:12
A really annoying bird keeps following me.

Does anyone have a gun ?

It's no use. It'll rise again anyway

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:13
Blimey!
You make your point in a Thread, then get treatd like you just walked into the womens powder room!

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 16:16
It is not that simple.

Punishment is not a deterrant and in many cases just teaches kids that pain is an option.

Surely it is about being a modern society and applying some thinking to this, instead of just being so black and white.

Yes, we all have choices, but what makes people do what they do ?

It is that simple Lucy and pain does not necessarily go hand in hand with pain. The basis of a punishment is deprevation of those things that give you most pleasure - if you commit a crime but still retain all those things what will stop you commiting the crime again? The liberalism that dominates our 'modern society' has violent crime at a record high, the average age of criminals reducing drastically, bullying at schools is on the increase and becoming more violent etc etc. People do what they do because they have no conscience, they have no fear of the consequences or, in fewer cases no understanding of the consequences. Someone else has already asked you this and you didn't answer - what would you do?

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:17
That's what i said!
Just not so many words to read

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:19
Blimey!
You make your point in a Thread, then get treatd like you just walked into the womens powder room!

Yes, that's why we go to the 'powder room' in pairs.

(To compare pistols)

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:19
That's what i said!
Just not so many words to read

Works well in America! Not!

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:20
Works well in America! Not!

What less words?

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 16:23
If only the world was black and white it would be simple But...If you live on an estate where everyone is up to no good, chances are you will be up to no good. Obviously we have problems with kids from normal backgrounds being unrully, yes I agree they should be punnished (better than they are now), but most of them aren't going to end up as violent criminals. Those who do may not be all bad. Just locking them up and then releasing them is doing nothing. They won't get a job on release, nobody will employ an ex-criminal with no skills, what will they do? Take £60 a week in benefits or go back to crime?

Ok, they live on an estate where everyone is no good - so why do these estates get like that? You are also making the assumption that an alternative to prison would help to reform violent criminals - those criminals find murder, maiming, rape, torture acceptable behaviour - surely a sign of personality disorder? So the natural progression for this argument then is - if someone is a sociopath should they be punished for their actions or treated as ill as they have no control over the illness

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:30
Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore.

I really don't know, I agree liberalism and 'cultural relevance' are not working, in this respect, and it would good to have some creative argument.

I worked in a barristers' chambers after I left school and all I can say is the files I read about some of the most violent and f ucked up criminals were as varied as you can imagine.

All I know there is not 'one' answer, as there is not one kind of person. The steps forward we have made in terms of liberating society and opportunities for people these days are well worth it, maybe we just have to live with the fact that one brings the other.

(Personally, I have strong reservations about both parents working and shoving their kids into daycare...and I could be wrong about that too.)

Troll
22nd November 2006, 16:32
Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore.
(Personally, I have strong reservations about both parents working and shoving their kids into daycare...and I could be wrong about that too.)

No you're not

John Galt
22nd November 2006, 16:33
"The steps forward we have made in terms of liberating society and opportunities for people these days are well worth it, maybe we just have to live with the fact that one brings the other."

Give me 3 examples

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:33
Ok, they live on an estate where everyone is no good - so why do these estates get like that? You are also making the assumption that an alternative to prison would help to reform violent criminals - those criminals find murder, maiming, rape, torture acceptable behaviour - surely a sign of personality disorder? So the natural progression for this argument then is - if someone is a sociopath should they be punished for their actions or treated as ill as they have no control over the illness

Some people should not go to prison full stop. E.g. Someone who owes money, should not be sent to prison.

People who have committed serious violent crime should go to prison, but we should try to make them better people. I know people who are violent but are not completely bad people, they have learnt to be like that and in most cases they can unlearn. Your idea of the way forward implies that people cannot make mistakes, people do not learn from them, and people who commit crimes are 100% without redemption and should be treated as such. unfortunately that approach doesn't work. We have to punish people but also show them how they should be behaving, some people don't have the ability to work that out for themselves, and if they do many more people have suffered than necessary just out of a need for revenge.

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:35
One of the worst things to ever happen to this country was all of the mines and shipyards being destroyed.
When we had them, kids went straight from school into one of these professions and were too busy grafting all day long to think about turning to crime.
They had a purpose, they had direction, they didn't have time to think, they just got stuck in, cause its what their dad, uncles, brothers, friends all did.

You didn't hav the energy to go out and rob after a day down the pit!

And who's fault was that? All together.....

Yous sit and bitch and moan about labour this, labour that - they're still trying to deal with the sodding aftermath of your ******* Tory goddess who quite frankly, struck her cock up the arse of this country.

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:37
Blimey! how do you agree with this lady?

Troll
22nd November 2006, 16:38
One of the worst things to ever happen to this country was all of the mines and shipyards being destroyed.
When we had them, kids went straight from school into one of these professions and were too busy grafting all day long to think about turning to crime.
They had a purpose, they had direction, they didn't have time to think, they just got stuck in, cause its what their dad, uncles, brothers, friends all did.

You didn't hav the energy to go out and rob after a day down the pit!

And who's fault was that? All together.....

Yous sit and bitch and moan about labour this, labour that - they're still trying to deal with the sodding aftermath of your ******* Tory goddess who quite frankly, struck her cock up the arse of this country.

The last refuge of the blinkered socialist....blame Thatcher

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:39
"The steps forward we have made in terms of liberating society and opportunities for people these days are well worth it, maybe we just have to live with the fact that one brings the other."

Give me 3 examples


You seriously need to ask ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:40
The last refuge of the blinkered socialist....blame Thatcher

Last refuge of the blinkered Iron Lady lover...Blame Labour?

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:40
SA I'm afraid I have to say it, but we would not be enjoying the prosperity we are today without the reforms Thatcher put in place (and Blair has not revoked)...

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:41
The last refuge of the blinkered socialist....blame Thatcher


Its not the last refuge mate, its the first port of call.

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:41
Sally I agree that the biggest rise in law and disorder and break up of the family unit was in the 80s, the stats speak for themselves. However, the yobbo culture is all over the country, and we have plenty of jobs to go around these days.

The yobs could be dealt with by bringing back some form of national service, give them a sense of worth and a sense of meaning in their community. I really think it would be a great thing for everyone concerned.

But, I think the yob culture isn't that strongly linked to the UK prison population. Most yobbos probably turn out ok, only a hardcore are going to go on to be problematic.

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:42
Its not the last refuge mate, its the first port of call.

Ha Ha! you all sound like a load of footy hooligans! My team is better than your team

Ardesco
22nd November 2006, 16:42
Its not the last refuge mate, its the first port of call.

<pedantic mode>

aha so you admit you are a blinkered socialist then !!!!

</pedantic mode>

HTH :p

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:42
SA I'm afraid I have to say it, but we would not be enjoying the prosperity we are today without the reforms Thatcher put in place (and Blair has not revoked)...


I'm not saying everything she did was bad - I'm not a biased as this lot.
For a starter, my folks bought their council house, and moved us out of the murderous sesspit of an estate we grew up in.
Bavo maggie for that.

But which other reforms are you talking about Lucy?

Troll
22nd November 2006, 16:42
Last refuge of the blinkered Iron Lady lover...Blame Labour?
Not a great fan of the woman herself - but we are all living proof of her ideals - hard work =reward

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:43
Sally I agree that the biggest rise in law and disorder and break up of the family unit was in the 80s, the stats speak for themselves. However, the yobbo culture is all over the country, and we have plenty of jobs to go around these days.

The yobs could be dealt with by bringing back some form of national service, give them a sense of worth and a sense of meaning in their community. I really think it would be a great thing for everyone concerned.

But, I think the yob culture isn't that strongly linked to the UK prison population. Most yobbos probably turn out ok, only a hardcore are going to go on to be problematic.


Geez, fluffy, another good point.

Are you someone else today ?

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:43
Not a great fan of the woman herself - but we are all living proof of her ideals - hard work =reward

But where is the punishment of the wrong doers?

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:44
I was quite enjoying this debate, let's not turn it into a slanging match about thatcher FFS

Spacecadet
22nd November 2006, 16:44
The Sun
...
Their victims were buried under the floor at their home, at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester. Fred West cheated justice by hanging himself in jail.


I'm sure that if and when he was found guilty the Sun would have been the first to call for a re-introduction of the death penalty

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:46
Sally I agree that the biggest rise in law and disorder and break up of the family unit was in the 80s, the stats speak for themselves. However, the yobbo culture is all over the country, and we have plenty of jobs to go around these days.

The yobs could be dealt with by bringing back some form of national service, give them a sense of worth and a sense of meaning in their community. I really think it would be a great thing for everyone concerned.

But, I think the yob culture isn't that strongly linked to the UK prison population. Most yobbos probably turn out ok, only a hardcore are going to go on to be problematic.


Actually Bagpuss, we kind of agree on this (it is the season of miracles after all!)

national service, down the pits...both similar things. Things that kids got into at a young age which taught them discipline, respect, etc.
And before that we had 2 World Wars.

Its not supriing all the stats you throw out about "the youth of today" ARE far worse than any other youth in our countries history. Kids have sat on their arses for the last 20 years living the life of Riley!
We shouldn't be asking what has turned them bad, but what has made the good ones good!

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:47
I was quite enjoying this debate, let's not turn it into a slanging match about thatcher FFS

Due to your particularly pleasant nature today, I will oblige.

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:47
I'm sure that if and when he was found guilty the Sun would have been the first to call for a re-introduction of the death penalty
Point well made...but we have to point the finger for the formation of the society we now live in on past Governments...all of them...This liberalisation has gone mad!
Anyone can damage your property etc and claim its OK cos you yourself are insured? That is not the point...why are petty criminals getting away with this sh1t?

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:48
Actually Bagpuss, we kind of agree on this (it is the season of miracles after all!)

national service, down the pits...both similar things. Things that kids got into at a young age which taught them discipline, respect, etc.
And before that we had 2 World Wars.

Its not supriing all the stats you throw out about "the youth of today" ARE far worse than any other youth in our countries history. Kids have sat on their arses for the last 20 years living the life of Riley!
We shouldn't be asking what has turned them bad, but what has made the good ones good!

I don't think most of these kids are bad, they're just cheeky feckers who have been lumped in with the small minority of bad ones. They should all do the national service though IMHO, something to bridge the gap between the generations.

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:49
I'm not saying everything she did was bad - I'm not a biased as this lot.
For a starter, my folks bought their council house, and moved us out of the murderous sesspit of an estate we grew up in.
Bavo maggie for that.

But which other reforms are you talking about Lucy?


1. Privatisation of major industry, BA, BT, British Steel, British Rail, Airports, Electricity, Gas etc

2. Labour Market reforms such as the end of compulsory unionism and the end of secret ballots so workers couldn't be bullied into voting for strikes

3. Significant lowering and flattening of the tax rate - it was 97% at the top end when she was elected - thus increasing revenue and reducing avoidance.(Which we should all be grateful for !)

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 16:50
1. Privatisation of major industry, BA, BT, British Steel, British Rail, Airports, Electricity, Gas etc

2. Labour Market reforms such as the end of compulsory unionism and the end of secret ballots so workers couldn't be bullied into voting for strikes

3. Significant lowering and flattening of the tax rate - it was 97% at the top end when she was elected - thus increasing revenue and reducing avoidance.(Which we should all be grateful for !)


I've promised the freakishly nice Bagpuss that I wouldn't, so keep those points for another day! :)

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:52
I've promised the freakishly nice Bagpuss that I wouldn't, so keep those points for another day! :)


Yes, I realised after I posted that we had moved on. Such is the slowness of my typing...

Bagpuss
22nd November 2006, 16:53
Too late now the leftie lables are being printed by the McCarthy witchhunters

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:53
Point well made...but we have to point the finger for the formation of the society we now live in on past Governments...all of them...This liberalisation has gone mad!
Anyone can damage your property etc and claim its OK cos you yourself are insured? That is not the point...why are petty criminals getting away with this sh1t?

Back on topic?

Troll
22nd November 2006, 16:53
Last refuge of the blinkered Iron Lady lover...Blame Labour?



But where is the punishment of the wrong doers?

schizophrenic post !! :confused:

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:55
schizophrenic post !! :confused:

The first comment was to encorage the debate

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 16:56
The first comment was to encorage the debate


Are we back to Thatcher ?

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 16:58
This debate is dead

Troll
22nd November 2006, 16:58
Are we back to Thatcher ?
nope... think Phoenix was playing the advocate.... and confused me (easily done)

Troll
22nd November 2006, 16:59
This debate is dead
You killed it... hope you're happy now :p

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 17:00
nope... think Phoenix was playing the advocate.... and confused me (easily done)


Yes, I am very easily confused, esp. here.
Slow typing doesn't help.

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:00
nope... think Phoenix was playing the advocate.... and confused me (easily done)

Just trying to point out the folly of blame on one side.
We were looking for valid answers to what is going on in this world

Another G&T please

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:00
Yes, I am very easily confused, esp. here.
Slow typing doesn't help.

Try using two fingers.....I find that helps

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 17:01
Just trying to point out the folly of blame on one side.
We were looking for valid answers to what is going on in this world

Another G&T please

Could you please get me one while you're there, I deserve it.

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:02
Could you please get me one while you're there, I deserve it.

A treble?

Lucy
22nd November 2006, 17:05
A single will do, I have little capacity for alcohol.

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:07
A single will do, I have little capacity for alcohol.
Then please , at least have a double :music:

Troll
22nd November 2006, 17:07
:uofftopic

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:09
:uofftopic
I thought this topic died ages ago! :mad:

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 17:14
I thought this topic died ages ago! :mad:


That was Thatchers doing aswell! :D

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:14
That was Thatchers doing aswell! :D
Oh my God...you promised :eek:

SallyAnne
22nd November 2006, 17:15
Oh my God...you promised :eek:

:) I couldn't resist that one :)

Phoenix
22nd November 2006, 17:16
:) I couldn't resist that one :)

Objection sustained

sasguru
22nd November 2006, 22:24
You are making excuses - at the end of the day everyone has free will ...

And there my friend is where you go bad wrong ....

Board Game Geek
23rd November 2006, 08:28
Where did my last post go ?????

John Galt
23rd November 2006, 09:06
Some people should not go to prison full stop. E.g. Someone who owes money, should not be sent to prison.

People who have committed serious violent crime should go to prison, but we should try to make them better people. I know people who are violent but are not completely bad people, they have learnt to be like that and in most cases they can unlearn. Your idea of the way forward implies that people cannot make mistakes, people do not learn from them, and people who commit crimes are 100% without redemption and should be treated as such. unfortunately that approach doesn't work. We have to punish people but also show them how they should be behaving, some people don't have the ability to work that out for themselves, and if they do many more people have suffered than necessary just out of a need for revenge.

I agree with some of what you say Baggie but I believe that, for the most part, you would be hard pushed to make better people of very violent criminals. The nature of the crime would suggest that the criminals are incapable of making the important distinction between right and wrong or they can and chose to commit the crime anyway. I think that, if the criminals show a desire to reform - without there being incentives - then they should be assisted but to try to rehabilitate everyone is just an excercise in futility. I also still believe that the aspect of punishment should be primary. I also think that part of the problem these days is that the criminals seem to have more rights than the victims and, if there is no aspect of punishment for the criminal the victim also has a far worse sentence. A violent rapist could be out of his little holiday camp in 3 or 4 years but the victim will have to live with the fear for the rest of their life. I personally would spend far more on victim support than prisoner rehabilitation

Troll
23rd November 2006, 09:06
Have we finished with this thread?